Talk:Sybil (wife of Pain fitzJohn)

Sybil (wife of Pain fitzJohn) has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: July 7, 2020. (Reviewed version).

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sybil (wife of Pain fitzJohn)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Harrias (talk · contribs) 20:54, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a look at this one. Harrias ^talk 20:54, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty busy off-wiki at the moment, but BlueMoonset pointed out that I had neglected this review, so I will post as and when I can.

Verifiability

All information is sourced to seemingly reliable sources.
For consistency, "Chibnall, Marjorie (1991)" should list the location as "Oxford, UK".
- Done. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Similarly, for consistency, "Coplestone-Crow, Bruce (2000)" needs a publisher location.
- Done. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Newman, Charlotte A. (1988)" lists "Philadelphia, PA", but "Crouch, David (2000)" only has "New York", is that common?
- Yeah, the MOS folks get bent out of shape if you use "New York, NY"... --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Spotchecks reveal no copyvio or close para-phrasing concerns, and the cited facts all appear in the source.

Stability

Article is stable.

Illustrated

No images present, which is unsurprising. An image of Ludlow Castle could be considered, but I'm not fussed, and there is no point in adding an image for the sake of it.

That's it for the moment, a prose review will follow as soon as I am able. Harrias ^talk 21:10, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

"The entry for her first husband in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry.." Repetition of "entry".
- Fixed. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It would help to clarify the relationship between Hugh and Walter de Lacy here. It is done in a roundabout sort of way with the final sentence, but by then I was already a bit too confused.
- You will join the rest of us in the confusion ... the Lacy family is particularly tangled in its early history. Will try to fix this later. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think I've got it clearer now? We can try another explanation if this doesn't work. Isn't helped by the fact there are so many different theories... --Ealdgyth (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit confused about the inheritance thing: "Sybil had inherited lands that originally had been held by her kinsman Gilbert de Lacy.." But then, it says that "Roger's English possessions were given to his brother Hugh de Lacy, from whom Sybil had inherited them. On Roger's death Gilbert inherited the lands in Normandy, and pressed his claim to the family's former English estates." The second makes it sound like Gilbert never had the land; the first says he did.
- I'm not sure how that got garbled... it should have been lands held by Roger, not Gilbert... gah! --Ealdgyth (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Sybil retained control of Ludlow Castle until the middle of 1139, when she was forced to surrender it to King Stephen after a siege." I assume we know nothing more than this? It is quite blandly mentioned for something that sounds pretty significant and dramatic.
- I've not run across any other better description. Of the three main biographies of Stephen - Matthew doesn't mention the seige at all, King only mentions it in relation to Stephen saving the life of an ally and doesn't give the result of the seige, and Crouch's description is "Ludlow, left over from the campaign of 1138 and commanded by Payn fitz John's widow, Sybil de Lacy, had surrendered in early summer 1139 after a systematically conducted siege in which the king distinguished himself by personally saving the life of Earl Henry of NOrthumbria, his new ally." --Ealdgyth (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Provide the Wiktionary link for "in right of"; it isn't a commonly known term.
- I've added this. Harrias ^talk 08:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"..background to Gilbert Lacy's attempts to seize Ludlow from Dinan on.." Gilbert de Lacy? Also, Later the article refers to Josce de Dinan as Josce: be consistent.
"Sybil had two daughters, Cecily and Agnes with Pain." Add a comma after "Agnes".
- I've added this. Harrias ^talk 08:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Stephen also settled the bulk Pain's lands on Cecily," Missing "of" after "bulk".
- I've added this. Harrias ^talk 08:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Presumably Sybil is the mother of Josce's two daughters.." This sound like Wikipedia's editorial voice guessing: provide inline attribution of who is making that guess.

Overall, a nice piece of work, especially given how much is clearly unknown. Harrias ^talk 20:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ealdgyth: No rush, just making sure that you had clocked that I had finally completed this review. Harrias ^talk 19:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have, but my main desktop machine cratered Tuesday. It’s at the shop...likely a motherboard fried and....well I may be ordering a new desktop tomorrow...I hope to get to this next week...--Ealdgyth (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, what a pain. Just come back to this when you're able; I'm not going to close it in any hurry. Harrias ^talk 15:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ealdgyth: I see that you're easing back in, so just a gentle reminder about this review. Harrias ^talk 10:42, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Working on over the next day or so.... if FAC doesn't eat all my time. --Ealdgyth (talk) 13:47, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ealdgyth: I've done a couple of the minor copy-edits; if you could have a look at the couple of points remaining, then we can get this wrapped up. Harrias ^talk 08:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your paitence, I am recovering and hope to get to this this evening. It's not COVID, but sinuses suck. --Ealdgyth (talk) 12:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've cleared up the last bits, if the reworking of the parentage section doesn't work, we'll try a third attempt at figuring out a way to convey the incredibly murky de Lacy family. --Ealdgyth (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That all works for me now. I made a small copyedit to remove some repetition, but otherwise I'm happy that this meets the GA criteria. Nice work. Harrias ^talk 07:46, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]