Talk:Tungusic peoples

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Meaning of "Tungu"

"It has also been suggested that the word derives from "tungus" which means pig."

"Pig" in what language? Would the "civilized" Chinese or the contrasted Mongolian nomads refer to these people as "pigs" or would the Tunguz simply refer to themselves as this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.203.140.113 (talk) 19:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

memidex.com Tungus: Russian, from East Turkic tunguz, wild pig, boar, from Old Turkic tonguz. (American Heritage Dictionary); School on the “move”: In different sources Tungus...have been suggested that it originated from the Yakut word “toηus” i.e. “pig. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.160.7.158 (talk) 08:05, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tunguses

If I understand right, ALL Tungusic peoples are considered Tunguses. It's rather confusing that the term Tunguses would have once been applied specifically to the Evenks, since they are just one of various Tungusic peoples. Gringo300 03:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, unfortunately, you have not "understood right." Tungus is originally an exonym for the Evenks, and not a general term for referring collectively to all ethnic groups whose traditional languages are classified by linguists as Tungusic.

Be careful to remember that, as an ethnonym, Tungus refers exclusively to Evenks (and also some other small groups that are closely related to Evenks and sometimes considered as subgroups of Evenks, such as Evens and Negidals). Ebizur (talk) 01:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Koreans

Why are Koreans considered Tungusic? Is there language not a language isolate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.76.212 (talk) 19:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did they conquer china or were they conquered BY china? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Purbanski (talk • contribs) 17:05, 5 July 2012 (UTC) Answer, conquered china.. Well the manchus did.[reply]

Neologism?

I've tagged this article because I think the term "Tungusic peoples" might be a neologism. There is a tendency on Wikipedia - either out of convenience or racist pan-nationalism - to try to put all ethnic groups on a phylogenetic tree based on language family, on the faulty premise that population groups correspond well with languages over time and space. On the various peoples who speak languages that are classified as Tungusic, I refer to the Polish anthropologist Maria Czaplicka:

The term Tungus is merely a linguistic one, like, for instance, the term Bantu, and within its range, so far as it is known, have been found various physical types and various cultures. There exists in ethnological literature such divisions as Dog-Tungus, Horse-Tungus, Reindeer-Tungus, i.e. according to the domestic animals they possess; or again, we can find terms sucha s Forest-Tungus, or Tundra-Tungus, for lack of better ones. In Russian scientific literature there lately appeared a division into Northern and Southern Tungus, which was said to be based on physical type but as there was not sufficient material speculation, it seems very superficial. Although we shall continue to use the term Northern Tungus, it will only refer to their geographical position, otherwise, since "Tungus race" is a linguistic term, I propose to use also a linguistic classification.

Shrigley (talk) 23:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've been wondering the same, but have found a few sources. It has been used to refer to people since 1612, although which groups are included under the umbrella has changed over time. I'll have a first go at improving it. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:41, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of whether it is "ethnographically correct" or not, the term "Tungusic people" is certainly not a neologism by any measure. A Google Books search shows it appear in many works both on Siberia and on China. Even if it is merely a shorthand for "the peoples who now speak Tungusic languages", it is used, among others, by such well-known authors as the linguist Bernard Comrie, the Manchu expert Pamela Kyle Crossley, and the authors of the Cambridge History of China. -- Vmenkov (talk) 16:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder what "sufficient material speculation" means. —Tamfang (talk) 23:28, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is still a "neologism" in the sense that it was coined in the 19th century to refer to phylogeny, not any contemporary ethnic group. There is nothing wrong with phylogeny (indeed, it is impossible to "understand" concepts without understanding phylogeny), but the status of the term as such needs to be pointed out. "Tungusic" is misleading in early (19th century) usage because it may refer just to Evenks (Tungus) and not to the full Manchu-Tungus phylum. It is my impression that German Tungusisch just meant "Tungus, Evenk", and English Tungusic was used by Müller as the English equivalent, but in the sense of "whatever linguistic phylum the Tungus belong to". It may be better to use the unambiguous "Manchu-Tungus" (or "Tunguso-Manchurian") when discussing the phylum, and Evenki when discussing the ethnic group, and avoiding either "Tungusic" or "Tungus" as likely to cause misunderstandings. --dab (𒁳) 07:24, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unter Tungusen und Jakuten : Erlebnisse und Ergebnisse der Olenék-Expedition der Kaiserlich russischen geographischen Gesellschaft in St. Petersburg (1882)

https://archive.org/details/untertungusenun00mlgoog

Rajmaan (talk) 03:49, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

House

Do they live in yurt? Planke (talk) 14:37, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Smallpox among the Tungus Peoples: The Language of a Disease

Smallpox among the Tungus Peoples: The Language of a Disease Ruth I. Meserve Central Asiatic Journal Vol. 50, No. 1 (2006), pp. 75-100 Published by: Harrassowitz Verlag Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41928411

Rajmaan (talk) 23:31, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tungusic states

Are there were any other Tungusic states except Jin dynasty, Manchu state, Qing dynasty and Manchukuo? Dersere (talk) 16:00, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Tungusic peoples

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Tungusic peoples's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Xue2006":

From Haplogroup C-M130: Xue Y, Zerjal T, Bao W, et al. (April 2006). "Male demography in East Asia: a north-south contrast in human population expansion times". Genetics. 172 (4): 2431–9. doi:10.1534/genetics.105.054270. PMC 1456369. PMID 16489223.
From Genetic history of East Asians: Xue Y, Zerjal T, Bao W, Zhu S, Shu Q, Xu J, Du R, Fu S, Li P, Hurles ME, Yang H, Tyler-Smith C (April 2006). "Male demography in East Asia: a north-south contrast in human population expansion times". Genetics. 172 (4): 2431–9. doi:10.1534/genetics.105.054270. PMC 1456369. PMID 16489223.
From Haplogroup C-M48: Xue Y, Zerjal T, Bao W, et al. (April 2006). "Male demography in East Asia: a north-south contrast in human population expansion times". Genetics. 172 (4): 2431–9. doi:10.1534/genetics.105.054270. PMC 1456369. PMID 16489223.
From Haplogroup O-M176: Yali Xue, Tatiana Zerjal, Weidong Bao, Suling Zhu, Qunfang Shu, Jiujin Xu, Ruofu Du, Songbin Fu, Pu Li, Matthew E. Hurles, Huanming Yang, and Chris Tyler-Smith, "Male Demography in East Asia: A North–South Contrast in Human Population Expansion Times." Genetics 172: 2431–2439 (April 2006).
From Haplogroup O-M117: Yali Xue, Tatiana Zerjal, Weidong Bao, Suling Zhu, Qunfang Shu, Jiujin Xu, Ruofu Du, Songbin Fu, Pu Li, Matthew E. Hurles, Huanming Yang, and Chris Tyler-Smith, "Male Demography in East Asia: A North–South Contrast in Human Population Expansion Times." Genetics 172: 2431–2439 (April 2006). DOI: 10.1534/genetics.105.054270

Reference named "Duggan2013":

From Haplogroup N-M231: Duggan, AT; Whitten, M; Wiebe, V; Crawford, M; Butthof, A; et al. (2013). "Investigating the Prehistory of Tungusic Peoples of Siberia and the Amur-Ussuri Region with Complete mtDNA Genome Sequences and Y-chromosomal Markers". PLoS ONE. 8 (12): e83570. Bibcode:2013PLoSO...883570D. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0083570. PMID 24349531.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
From Haplogroup A (mtDNA): Duggan AT, Whitten M, Wiebe V, Crawford M, Butthof A, et al. (2013), "Investigating the Prehistory of Tungusic Peoples of Siberia and the Amur-Ussuri Region with Complete mtDNA Genome Sequences and Y-chromosomal Markers." PLoS ONE 8(12): e83570. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0083570

Reference named "DiCristofaro2013":

From Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup: Di Cristofaro, Julie; Pennarun, Erwan; Mazières, Stéphane; Myres, Natalie M.; Lin, Alice A.; Temori, Shah Aga; Metspalu, Mait; Metspalu, Ene; Witzel, Michael; King, Roy J.; Underhill, Peter A.; Villems, Richard; Chiaroni, Jacques (2013). "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge". PLOS ONE. 8 (10): e76748. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748. PMC 3799995. PMID 24204668.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
From Haplogroup C-M48: Di Cristofaro J, Pennarun E, Mazières S, Myres NM, Lin AA, et al. (2013) "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge." PLoS ONE 8(10): e76748. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748
From Haplogroup O-M117: Di Cristofaro J, Pennarun E, Mazières S, Myres NM, Lin AA, et al. (2013) "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge." PLoS ONE 8(10): e76748. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748

Reference named "Fedorova2013":

From Haplogroup D (mtDNA): Fedorova, Sardana A; Reidla, Maere; Metspalu, Ene; et al. (2013). "Autosomal and uniparental portraits of the native populations of Sakha (Yakutia): implications for the peopling of Northeast Eurasia". BMC Evolutionary Biology. 2013 (13): 127. doi:10.1186/1471-2148-13-127. PMC 3695835. PMID 23782551.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
From Haplogroup M (mtDNA): Sardana A Fedorova, Maere Reidla, Ene Metspalu, et al., "Autosomal and uniparental portraits of the native populations of Sakha (Yakutia): implications for the peopling of Northeast Eurasia." BMC Evolutionary Biology 2013, 13:127. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/13/127

Reference named "Lell2002":

From Haplogroup C-M48: Lell JT, Sukernik RI, Starikovskaya YB, et al. (January 2002). "The dual origin and Siberian affinities of Native American Y chromosomes". Am. J. Hum. Genet. 70 (1): 192–206. doi:10.1086/338457. PMC 384887. PMID 11731934.
From Nivkh people: Jeffrey T. Lell, Rem I. Sukernik, Yelena B. Starikovskaya, Bing Su, Li Jin, Theodore G. Schurr, Peter A. Underhill, and Douglas C. Wallace, "The Dual Origin and Siberian Affinities of Native American Y Chromosomes." American Journal of Human Genetics 70:192–206, 2002.
From Haplogroup C-M130: Lell JT, Sukernik RI, Starikovskaya YB, et al. (January 2002). "The dual origin and Siberian affinities of Native American Y chromosomes". Am. J. Hum. Genet. 70 (1): 192–206. doi:10.1086/338457. PMC 384887. PMID 11731934.

Reference named "Ashirbekov2017":

From Kazakhs: E. E. Ashirbekov, D. M. Botbaev, A. M. Belkozhaev, A. O. Abayldaev, A. S. Neupokoeva, J. E. Mukhataev, B. Alzhanuly, D. A. Sharafutdinova, D. D. Mukushkina, M. B. Rakhymgozhin, A. K. Khanseitova, S. A. Limborska, N. A. Aytkhozhina, "Distribution of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups of the Kazakh from the South Kazakhstan, Zhambyl, and Almaty Regions." Reports of the National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Kazakhstan, ISSN 2224-5227, Volume 6, Number 316 (2017), 85 - 95.
From Haplogroup C-M217: E. E. Ashirbekov, D. M. Botbaev, A. M. Belkozhaev, A. O. Abayldaev, A. S. Neupokoeva, J. E. Mukhataev, B. Alzhanuly, D. A. Sharafutdinova, D. D. Mukushkina, M. B. Rakhymgozhin, A. K. Khanseitova, S. A. Limborska, and N. A. Aytkhozhina, "Distribution of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups of the Kazakh from the South Kazakhstan, Zhambyl, and Almaty Regions." Reports of the National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Kazakhstan, ISSN 2224-5227, Volume 6, Number 316 (2017), 85 – 95.

Reference named "Hammer2006":

From Haplogroup C-M48: Hammer MF, Karafet TM, Park H, et al. (2006). "Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes". J. Hum. Genet. 51 (1): 47–58. doi:10.1007/s10038-005-0322-0. PMID 16328082.
From Haplogroup O-M176: Michael F. Hammer, Tatiana M. Karafet, Hwayong Park, Keiichi Omoto, Shinji Harihara, Mark Stoneking, and Satoshi Horai, "Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes." Journal of Human Genetics (2006) 51:47–58. DOI 10.1007/s10038-005-0322-0
From Haplogroup C-M130: Hammer MF, Karafet TM, Park H, et al. (2006). "Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes". J. Hum. Genet. 51 (1): 47–58. doi:10.1007/s10038-005-0322-0. PMID 16328082.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 13:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]