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I don't get it. The article begins with Djerma, also spelled Zerma, Djerma, Dyerma , or Zaberma but any other time it says Zarma. Is Zarma also a good name, or is it a misspelling? --81.38.190.57 22:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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This language, which belongs to the Songhay language group, is spoken just about entirely in the West African nation of Niger (although there are a few thousand speakers in neighboring Mali). The name used by Ethnologue at the pages of both these countries is Zarma (specifically Zarmaci at the Mali page). In 2007 at the Talk:Songhay page, a contributor (not me) complained about the use of the spelling, Djerma. Therefore, there seems to be good reason for the move (renaming). I would appreciate knowledgeable people giving advice on this proposal. I have followed all three steps prescribed in the procedure for requesting a potentially controversial move. See WP:RM. Hurmata (talk) 06:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I'm sure you know, all African names are victims of transcription. I personnally prefer Djerma, as this is the accepted Francophone transcription. As Niger, Mali, and Benin are Francophone, and almost all Djerma speakers are there, this makes sense to me. Fluglestad's history of Niger, one of the few English language works on the history of the nation uses Djerma, as does Decalo's Historical Dictionary of Niger. Zerma is the traditional British spelling. That's all I have in front of me right now, but I'll do a google search as well.
It strikes me that there can be honest disagreements about this, but the advantages of Djerma/Dyerma/Zerma/Zarma seem marginal. I would suggest we leave it where it is, regularise the spelling across the article, and point out that which anyone studying West Africa will quickly determine for themselves; that there are eight spellings of every African word and that's not going to change anytime soon. My 2 cents. T L Miles (talk) 13:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Googling, Zerma seems to come up more often for the language, but the ISO 639-3 code is "dje". CIA world fact book uses one, Library of Congress uses the other. Picking a Nigerien site at random (http://www.nigerdiaspora.net/ ), the search reveals almost no usage of Zerma, many for Djerma, but the site is written in French. An interesting case is http://patstoll.org/afspeaknew/, a site collecting students autobiographies from Niamey. Djerma is the term used there, but it was likely translated from French. A side note: people in Niger talk about Djerma / Songhai people (as opposed to language) pretty interchangably, as the Dosso kingdom identified as Djerma in the immediate pre-colonial people. It seems Djerma is more common in English as the group name, Zerma as the language, I would assume because of disciplinary diferences: what might be standard for anglophone historians could be different for anglophone anthropologists. T L Miles (talk) 14:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please accept my apologies for triggering this discussion inadvertently. My move request was prompted by a misunderstanding purely on my own part. I did not realize this article is about the Djerma *ethnic group*. I am concerned with the naming of the Wikipedia article on their language. After posting the move request, I discovered that Wikipedia already has an article, Zarma_language. Therefore, I have voided the move request. I have removed notice of it from the WP:RM page as well as from this talk page. I do not have a stance on moving *this* article on the ethnic group. If someone else were to make a move request, I would follow the discussion with interest. Hurmata (talk) 03:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Dude, seriously, it's still not a bad idea. I think eventually that move will happen, but I don't get the feeling anglophone academics have decided (though Zarma is where it's trending). It's like Fulani/Puel becoming Fula in the last twenty years in English. With African transcriptions (or any language that uses a non-western script) there's always chaos in English spelling. T L Miles (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


It would not be a bad idea to move this page to "Zarma". Yes, outsiders seem to be confused as to what term to use. But, it makes no sense to have one spelling for the language and another spelling for the people. Having lived in Niger since 1992, I am a fluent speaker of Zarma and "Zarma" is and always has been the standard spelling (and pronunciation) in the Zarma language. "Djerma" is a very old French spelling/pronunciation that isn't used as often any more in Niger as it used to be. French speakers continue to say and often write "Zerma", as do some English-speakers, so "Zerma" could make some sense. (I often say "zerma" myself when speaking French. This spelling/pronunciation comes from a Songhay pronunciation. In fact, /er/ is not even a possible combination in Zarma.) But honestly, it would make more sense to use the same word for the language and the people since the same word is always used for both (except perhaps by confused foreigners), and "Zarma" is the most correct and, increasingly, most popular term being used in both French and English. And yes, the Songhay and Zarma are sometimes viewed as one people by outsiders, but not at all by the Zarma and Songhay themselves. seberle (talk) 04:18, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coming way late to this discussion, but wanted to indicate agreement with the move - not that it matters now. "Zarma" was what I recall hearing in Niger, and it is close to other transcriptions (none of which are really established as a term in English in the way Fula/Fulani or Bambara are, for example).--A12n (talk) 10:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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What constitutes a "related ethnic group"? I see "Hausa" has been added to Songhai and Mande. I understand Songhai being "related" (they share a common language, though not a common origin). Traditional origin stories claim the Zarma are an offshoot of a Mande group, but this is not mentioned in the article. I'm not sure why Hausa has been added. What are the criteria for being a "related" group? Shouldn't these "relationships" be explained in the article? --seberle (talk) 16:18, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This has never been answered. The Hausa have no known ethnic or linguistic relationship to the Zarma, so I am deleting this reference. --seberle (talk) 21:36, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The same goes for the Fulani. --seberle (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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