:::::::Yes, I understand the "involved" issue. I just wanted to ensure that you were aware I had added something that some people may in fact consider to be baiting. I do not see it as baiting, but in this peculiar world there is no guessing how others might see it. In other words, if someone should come along and remove it then I am really not that fussed and would not expect you to consider such a revert as edit warring etc. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 15:06, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, I understand the "involved" issue. I just wanted to ensure that you were aware I had added something that some people may in fact consider to be baiting. I do not see it as baiting, but in this peculiar world there is no guessing how others might see it. In other words, if someone should come along and remove it then I am really not that fussed and would not expect you to consider such a revert as edit warring etc. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 15:06, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::OK, thanks -- [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 15:10, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::OK, thanks -- [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 15:10, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
== Congratulations! ==
Your furious defense of the racist propaganda posted by Sitush & Co. makes me wonder whether you are his homosexual wife. So, are you gay? There are many other easier ways to do it. You can protect the article and give exclusive edit rights to the trio. I don't know why you are having such hatred towards us... may be because some of you were illegitimate children produced by Nair fathers.. is it so? [[User:Robbie.Smit|Robbie.Smit]] ([[User talk:Robbie.Smit|talk]]) 16:29, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Discussion. I think it it's best to keep discussions in one place. So my talk, your talk, or an article talk - I'll carry on wherever it started.
Talk page stalkers are welcome here - just join in any time you feel like.
Admin: I'm new to the admin business, so if I do any admin things that you disagree with, please don't feel you need my permission to revert or adjust them - just use your judgment. But please do let me know.
I've got a problem at User_talk:John_KB#Revert of your revert. I am trying to insist that the heights of 2011 Miss Universe contestants are sourced and the other user is saying that the heights are in the individual articles for the contestants. Problem is, those individual articles often do not have cites for the heights and, in any event, I feel that it is WP:CIRCULAR. He did a full rollback the first time, and on his second go effectively did the same thing again.
I'd rather see the darn things right in the summary article we are currently in dispute about, and I have already had to amend two individual bios where they were wrong (which kind of proves my point, I guess!)
I'm not even interested in Miss Universe, but crap sourcing irritates me, and this is not a new contributor as he has 9000+ edits to his name. - Sitush (talk) 17:38, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And now he has deleted the stuff from his TP, moved it to mine, accused me of not knowing policy, ignored the fact that I told him I had asked for admin advice & that it would be better staying on his TP until there was a chance for the admin to look at it etc. Getting a bit irate here. - Sitush (talk) 18:06, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to have to come back to this a bit later, maybe tomorrow - it won't hurt to leave it to cool for a bit -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's ok, no rush. But he kept buggering with his talk page, so the discussion has now ended up in partly in his history and partly in full view on my page. I'm just going ahead and doing my stuff. This isn't a content dispute, it is a policy dispute: I say the articles need to stand alone, the other guy says that the bio link was sufficient (which I am now proving is not in fact the case due to incorrect info there, or lack of a citation altogether). - Sitush (talk) 18:30, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard arguments that for a list the sources in the individual target articles are sufficient, but I think that only holds water for a bare list and then only to show notability (but not to support any actual information). For a list like this, containing actual information, I agree it does need proper standalone sourcing - and I think that's supported by policy -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:34, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is certainly my view. Have a think, if you have the time and inclination. If you decide that I am wrong then let me know, otherwise let the other guy know please because although he is now letting me do my stuff he appears (IMO) to misunderstand policy in quite a big way. His argument was to rely on a de facto circular reference (ie: no citation but the info is there in the bio articles, to which there are links). - Sitush (talk) 18:57, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I think that he probably now accepts my point - see this on my talk page. The citation system is a disaster for that article, and there is still much to be done given that it is "sort of" a micro-BLP for each contestant (I assume that they would be offended if their ages were a bit on the high side of reality, for example!). - Sitush (talk) 21:11, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alice Walker
Hi Boing, would you mind having a look at Alice Walker? It's had a lot of IP vandalism in the last week and I think it could use some protection. Thanks Span (talk) 17:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, looks like it's been going on for several days now, so I've semi-protected it for a week -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:32, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Thanks very much. Span (talk) 18:42, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Number of patents by India WIPO
Hello. I just wanted to let you know that I have brought Number of patents by India WIPO (which you declined for CSD A1 last week) to AFD. The entry is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Number of patents by India WIPO if you wish to make any comments. I believe you were perfectly right to decline the speedy (the context was clear), however I still feel the article is unsuitable and have carried through with the process for deletion. Hope you have a lovely evening. France3470(talk) 23:30, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Boing. I noticed your comment at Twinkle talk. We shouldn't be needing workarounds, we need tools that work after they have first been tested and debugged. This new Twinkle control panel is full of good ideas, but its now full of new bugs too many to list, and all this comes right after its problems with the new Wiki software upgrade, and the introduction of Firefox 4. It's incredible that to use all Twinkle's tools and features on Mac, I now have to have four browser windows open: Safari in in monobook and vector, and Firefox in monobook and vector. The other problem of course is that the Twinkledevs are notoriously slow to respond to problems - if they respond at all (quite often they don't). It's got so frustrating, along with my jungle broadband that seems to be managed more by obscure spirits than by man, that I'm thinking of retiring from Wkipedia. Rant over ;) --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC).[reply]
I actually think they've done a good job on this and have been pretty responsive to bug feedback - and it really did have to be rewritten, or it would never have worked with the HTML5 standard. Hopefully, the new rewrite to use the API rather than faking human form-filling will make it a lot more robust too, and we should see fewer of the common failures - you know, when it just stops mid-action and doesn't do anything. And I see they've fixed the FF3 dialog problem too. Not sure why you need four windows open. Maybe you use different things than me, but it's always worked ok in either Firefox or Safari, and vector, for me - with the brief exception yesterday when it wasn't working properly with FF3. (And nah, you're not going to retire ;-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:41, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, I'm not going to retire - it was just hyperbole (which I'm famous for!). So I assume you use Mac? If so, we need to get our heads together on this. Meanwhile, I'm still a great fan of Firefox rather than Safari and I've finally moved to Vector although I don't like it one bit. Have you noticed that some of the Twinkle dropdowns are truncated on the right margin and need to be 'stretched' to read all the content? The delsort automation doesn't work anymore, and the blocking shortcut menu seems to have disappeared. The Twinkle operation often 'hang' and/or don't place the uw on a user's tp. Sometimes, gadgets just don't load at all, especially Rollback. If you have time, you could perhaps take a quick peek at User:Kudpung/vector.js and see if I have installed all the scripts correctly. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
illogicalpie(eat me) has given you a fresh pie! Pies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a piping hot pie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Bon appetit!
Spread the tastiness of pies by adding {{subst:GivePie}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
Hi, I should know this by now but where should I take this user, who has received multiple warnings for rmeoval of cited content across numerous articles & over a fair period? - Sitush (talk) 01:30, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The WP:AIV people might deal with it, though they may reject it as technically not vandalism. Or you could take it to a friendly admin ;-) This user had certainly had plenty of warnings from a variety of people, so I've given them a 24 hour block to try to get them to take notice - and I'm prepared to block further if it continues -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:42, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'll bear that in mind for the future. I did think that AIV would reject it but had never seen an equivalent noticeboard for plain old disruption/removal. - Sitush (talk) 12:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wannagonnagood
I for one am always happy to see a truly repentent user unblocked. Yes, by all means feel free to unblock him. Thanks for letting me know. :) --PMDrive1061 (talk) 15:16, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I have just deleted a later version of this page as an expired Prod. However, I notice that on 17 May 2011 you deleted an earlier version that had been merged into State. Assuming that content was indeed merged, that deletion breaches our GFDL licence because the history of merged content must be retained. Unless I am missing something, I think that the version that you deleted should be undeleted and converted into a redirect. There are other ways of retaining the history but that is probably the simplest. I should welcome your reaction, please. TerriersFan (talk) 16:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, good point, I'd overlooked the fact that its contents had been merged - I've done exactly what you suggest -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is using an image I would like to nominate for deletion. As long as it is used here, this will be refused. What I have to do? Commons is not for self-promotion content and I donated to Wikimedia Foundation in faith that my money will be used for educational purposes (That's why our ministry of finance assessed WMF as being charitable). What are the steps to take? Thank you in advice. Sincerely -- Rillke (talk) 19:21, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I can't see why there would be a problem removing it from that page as it is not an actual article - and I guess it's not good to tie Commons images to non-articles. I'm not certain though, but I've gone ahead and removed it anyway. It's possible someone might disagree and have a reason for keeping it, but other than that you should be able to go ahead and request its deletion now -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you again. -- Rillke (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
you're an idiot for deleting the Tribes(band) article.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.168.238 (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it's any help, you can find the Idiot's Guide to band notability here -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:51, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively, if you think my decision was wrong, I'd be happy to respond to a civil request -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ha, how sad ;-) Could be one of a number of people, but I can't see them being here for long - thanks for letting me know -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ounce i figure out how to format sources here you'll see alot less complaints from me "that genre is wrong! idiots". Well I appreciate your respectfulness, but you seem tothink im slow or something. And calling someone a ahole is not abuse, for example saying to someone "I wish you were never born, go kill yourself" is. Thanks for the block! MajorHawke (talk) 21:16, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker)MajorHawke, I left you a couple tips on references on your talk page. I personally, can only create the most basic of references on my own. I use the help section of the editor to make sure they are correct. I find it invaluable.
On to the assholes and idiots comments... let's say you called me an asshole, or an idiot, or both. Couldn't care less. Wouldn't make a difference to me. But, the thing to remember is this; not everyone has as thick skin as me. It's always best to assume that the other editors you are dealing with have thinner skin than people like me (or Boing!). Besides ensuring you're not dragged back to ANI or get a longer block, it also helps create an environment where the other editors are more likely to give what you say due consideration. People are always more likely to stop and listen if one presents their points in a civil fashion. An one of the guidelines says "comment on the content, not on the contributor".
Now, I've been in management at various places, and learned I always need to look at the content of a conversation regardless of the tone of the conversation... but I suspect I'm an exception in how most people handle such things. So, I truly hope you give this some thought. If you need help with learning how to do proper references, or help on stuff like reliable sources (or anything else for that matter), please feel free to drop by my talk page and leave me a note. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Followup:
"I wish you were never born, go kill yourself" - that's an attack (and probably incivility as well)
Perhaps that's the confusion. Both are against guidelines... Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, MajorHawke, I don't think you're slow at all - I just think you need a bit more experience, that's all, and that is easily solved. I look forward to seeing properly sourced changes - and as I said, please feel free to ask me for help at any time. Robert really is good at helping people too, and he's definitely worth listening to -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it say talk page stalker?? MajorHawke (talk) 22:47, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that's a term for someone who watches other people's Talk pages and offers help on them - you can see at the top of this page I have "Talk page stalkers are welcome here - just join in any time you feel like" -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Some of us turn to others for help when we need it, or have collaborated together on various things, or look to each other (ie: follow what each other do) as learning experiences. In Boing!'s case, there was an editor who kept getting himself into trouble at AN/I, and got blocked a few times. He too had some civility issues as well. I'm a regular viewer of AN/I as I find it a great place to find out what the community thinks about how various policies, rules and guidelines should be interpreted. I managed to rescue him from AN/I and took him on as one of my adoptees. It was a bit of a rocky road, but it's ended quite nicely, with us communicating on and off Wikipedia, and him working diligently (and collaboratively) on various GA articles, numerous Featured Article submissions, and multiple DYK submissions. Boing (and a few other of my fellow editors (admin and non admin alike) was observing (and I believe active) and I believe was one of the people who helped in that rescue. At the time, Boing wasn't even an adminstrator... but you'll find (if you hadn't noticed already), that his attitude is much the same. He'd rather help a new editor than see them run afoul of the bazillion rules, guidelines and policies due to a simple lack of understanding them all. On that note, I doubt there's anyone here who understands them all, but that's where collaborating with other editors comes in handy, as we can help support each other through the never-ending learning experience.
Ugh, so to end my rambling, I follow the actions of Boing! and a few other editors... partly to see if I can help out, partly to learn from them, and partly because I like making WikiFriends who I can collaborate with. And I believe Boing! also does the same - as do my own talk page stalkers... so, that's what a talk page stalker is. At least as it applies to us. You can click on that link above to read more. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Side note: Yeah, what Boing! said, which shows why I dont write much content... I tend to ramble. ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
68.37.124.56
Hi Boing! IP User 68.37.124.56 continues to add long-winded physical descriptions to characters at Fanboy and Chum Chum against openly explained objection and numerous invitations to discuss why this level of detail should be included. I would like to nominate the user for another edit block for possible edit-warring, and/or to request semi-protection of the page, as there are not too many useful edits coming from IP users. Its sister page List of Fanboy and Chum Chum Episodes recently earned semi-protected status. Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I've tried explaining again, because I think they mean well. Semi-protection is an option too, as there seem to be several IP addresses editing, but let's give it one more chance first -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:23, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Boing! I think you made a good call. I feel that the user is either incapable of understanding why this level of detail doesn't belong on Wiki, or that there's some other kind of chemically compelling need to include it in spite of my protests. Anyway, good call with the compassionate academic approach. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can you see who is in the right, if anyone?
I recently tagged a couple of articles for deletion through various methods. There is a discussion on my talk page left by an admin who is a self described inclusionist. Could you offer some analysis of this? Ryan Vesey (talk) 04:47, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a look and a read over the discussion on your Talk page, and will offer my comments there -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
GOCE May 2011 backlog elimination drive progress graphs
There were 63 signups for the drive; of these, 45 participated. Although we did not award a bonus for articles from the Requests page this drive, we are not experiencing lengthy delays in getting the articles processed. Many thanks to editors who have been helping out at the Requests page and by copy editing articles from the backlog.
Progress report
During the month of May we reduced the backlog by approximately 10%, and made remarkable progress on eliminating articles tagged from 2009. There are now only 15 articles left, down from the 415 that were present when the drive started. Since our backlog drives began in May 2010 with 8,323 articles, we have cleared more than 54% of the backlog. A complete list of results and barnstars awarded can be found here. Barnstars will be distributed over the next week. If you enjoyed participating in our event, you may also like to join the Wikification drives, which are held on alternate months to our drives. Their June drive has started.
Coodinator election
The six-month term for our first tranche of Guild coordinators will be expiring at the end of June. We will be accepting nominations for the second tranche of coordinators, who will also serve a six-month term. Nominations will open starting on June 5. For complete information, please have a look at the election page.
Hi Boing, if you have a mo then could you cast your eye over Talk:Burndennett Cricket Club. Am I being touchy? I've been called many thing before, but not that! - Sitush (talk) 12:09, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not especially egregious, but it's out of order - I've left a comment -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks. I sense some protectiveness towards a series of articles going on. I have since reviewed the AfD that is referred and am wondering whether it is worth the hassle of continuing down that road. I do believe that the two articles I CSDd fail to demonstrate notability, even if the admin involved thought that they demo'd importance, but it seems that in sports related stuff pretty much anything goes. Since being in a league appears to be the marker and notability seemed to be inherited in that instance also, perhaps I should write an article on my local pub's darts team, which I think includes one person who has played for Lancashire (I do not step up to the oche anywhere myself, so I might be wrong about that person).
I'll have a think. Might be easier just to withdraw the AfD and just let the place get flooded with NNs, as happens with schools & one-line stubs for villages in Nepal. - Sitush (talk) 12:29, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I have to say I find sports-related notability difficult to follow, and I'm not sure what leagues count. But I have seen some English football team articles deleted for playing in non-notable leagues, so I think I'd be tempted to let the AfD run - it would at least help to establish the status of that league -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:33, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Twinkle Logs...
Hi! I have tried enabling CSD and PROD logging in the settings control panel, but I get
Saving preferences to User:RobertMfromLI/twinkleoptions.js: Could not resolve redirects for: User:RobertMfromLI/twinkleoptions.js
Not sure what I'm doing wrong... tried manually creating the file and then saving... same results. Hoping you have a few ideas... Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strange. Do you have any Twinkle prefs set in your .js page? I believe you need to remove those and only do Twinkle prefs via the new prefs page - it's something to do with the order in which scripts are loaded. I've actually removed all Twinkle stuff from my .js page now - I only use the Preferences/Gadgets page to enable it, and the new prefs page to set my preferences -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, your twinkleoptions.js looks a bit strange. Mine looks like User:Boing! said Zebedee/twinkleoptions.js. I'd suggest taking everything out of your skin.js and only using the Gadgets page/TW prefs page - and if that doesn't work, maybe get on to one of the Twinkle developers -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It was a copy/paste from the instructions. I removed it and tried again, with the same results... a few repeat attempts though, and it seems to have went through. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:01, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I found I needed a few refreshes and a bit of cache clearing to make things work properly - you usually need to clear your browser cache if you make TW prefs changes -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:06, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You should have kept your head down so that bit of bent Australian wood wouldn't hit it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:54, 4 June 2011 (UTC) .[reply]
Nair
I am sorry that it has come to this. Not entirely surprised, but sorry. - Sitush (talk) 21:20, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not your fault - you're clearly trying to defuse things and improve the article. It's just that there's too much emotion at the moment (and I know how passionate the whole caste issue can be). I hope a 12 hour protection might allow people to cool down a bit -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:27, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Sorry, I'm a bit busy right now and am likely to be for a few days - I suggest you try WP:SPI -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:44, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone deserves a break, and B!sZ does especially. I will have a little look. :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:49, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Storm is in teacup, nothing more to do there... until something else happens :) I will keep an eye on it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:00, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ends and means
Thanks for your message. The issue made me think: why are animals (and other human beings) not just ends, but also means? Because respect would surely rule out another being as a means to my ends, which I think you had in mind in deleting the 'not only as a means' ?
I think it is because to acknowledge a being as an end can only be done by a being who is an end in itself. To acknowledge some being as an end is to say that I can be a means to its wellbeing. But to do that is to acknowledge myself as not only an end but also a means. An end because I acknowledge another end. And a means because I acknowledge that there are other ends than myself.
So beings who are ends are also means. But not simply means.
In the context of veganism, this suggests that we can enter into reciprocal relationships. And there are many of these, where animals are treated as ends and also means.
For example, we can interact with guide dogs, pets, and horses, in ways where there is the potential for the animal to be treated as a means (guidance, companionship transport) as well as an end. Examples of being an end would be where the animal benefits, perhaps knowingly, from the relationship and there is mutual contribution to each other's wellbeing.
I see you got my mail and responded, this note is more so others tracking the issue via your talk page are aware as well.
I have provided basic background by email to the admins involved - Boing and Zero - (to a point they can understand the background but not to the point of breaching privacy policy), as a first step, to see whether they believe the matter can be dealt with on-wiki. If there is consensus it can be addressed on-wiki then this information will be posted at WP:ANI for the community to discuss and to also consider how to avoid it in future. If consensus is that it cannot easily or safely be resolved on-wiki, I will suggest the matter is treated per Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Confidential evidence and referred to Arbcom to decide upon. There's a good chance it can be handled safely on-wiki but I'd like to consult briefly before making such a call, in case I'm wrong or others aren't convinced.
I hope all involved will hold off any posts or escalation until we at least have clarity of consultation whether it can be handled on-wiki. Hopefully as all concerned are active right now, we'll have this within a short while (24 hrs latest). Thanks. FT2(Talk | email) 00:13, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've replied by email to the people involved here, with my opinion that there are reasons for not continuing this in public -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:15, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Curious about deletion of article
My name is Dylan Holton, and I created a wiki page based on my music experiences as a musician, and my future plans regarding my music. I was using this article as a reference for those abroad who are searching for more information about who I am and what my music entails. Is there a more clear, specific reason why my page was deleted? There was no harm, or spam, or anything false in the whole article. Could you fill me in at all just to verify what I need to fix to make it a successful post? No hard feelings! Just very curios. I put a lot of time into the coding etc, so I really am interested. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.106.82.80 (talk) 00:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I deleted the Dylan Holton article as it had been tagged for Speedy Deletion category A7, and I agreed that it did not make sufficient claims of importance or significance. But please don't take it personally, it's just that Wikipedia only carries articles about musicians if they satisfy quite strict criteria, for example having released several albums on commercial labels or having had chart successes - being "upcoming" and preparing to self-release your first album doesn't make it, I'm afraid. You can check the notability requirements for musicians at WP:NBAND. Also, due to our conflict of interest guidelines, people are strongly discouraged from writing about themselves - once someone makes it to the big time, someone will surely come along and write an article independently. Regarding the text of the article, if you did not keep a copy and would like me to email it to you, please let me know an address I can use (if you're worried about spam, you can use one of the many throwaway email services, or format it in a way it can't be automatically harvested - write something like "This(at)somewhere" and don't use the @ symbol. I'll delete the email address from here as soon as I've used it). Regards -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:42, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively, I could temporarily restore the article to a page in my own user space from where you could copy it - let me know if you want me to do either of these things -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Houston, we have a problem. Our story begins with a group AFD long ago and far away. Not really, it was in February.
User:Banana Fingers Nominated a bunch of not too notable foot ball teams for deletion. The result was a resounding "Keep".
Please note the redlinks. I've found 3 articles that were near the close of the AFD truncate by Banana Fingers and recently tagged for speedy deletion. They were moved to new names by Banana Fingers . Someone once said, 1 is an accident, 2 a coincident, 3 enemy action." And so I've found my AGF severely strained here. At any rate, you and AlexF were deleting admins on 2 of these. I checked myself just in time. I suspect that all the redlinks represent articles deleted as CSD's after truncation by Banana Fingers. I'm off to lunch and I'm loosing the ability to type due to fatigue. I was wondering if you could look into these. Thanks Dlohcierekim 15:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, the redlinks were all ones deleted after Banana Fingers had moved them. Not entirely sure the moves were malicious, as the A7 tagging was done some time later by other people. I've restored the ones that were deleted, and have tagged all the Talk pages with AfD "keep" notices - and they're all on my watchlist now -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nice work on the restores. What's current thinking on a recreated article that was previously deleted under PROD? Cheers, Dlohcierekim 17:54, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Effectively the same status as a contested PROD, I believe - so should really go to AfD. But malls generally tend to be considered notable - there are hundreds of articles on them, dozens of lists, and there's even a project -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings, I appreciate your efforts to calm folks down at Nair after that nuiscance ANI was filed yesterday. I feel that I am one of a few editors working to add reputable, accurate citations to the article Nair, and are largely being countered by those who object to any material, however well-cited which could be read as "negative". The issue of Nair polyandry, a topic widely discussed by academics and full footnoted, was dismissed as "Once again, you Nadar guys are calling Nairs as bastards and Nair women as prostitutes. But what about your own women?... I have just reminded you that whatever you write about Nairs can backfire on you. So stop shouting at me and concentrate on your work, i.e adding degrading stuff to this article."
Since the block was lifted, editors have left edit summaries such as "Call you mother a dog, racist asshole", and Talk comments such as:
What the fuck you think is the meaning of that passage?
So you are saying that it is fine if you call us dogs, but it is something terrible if we return the favor? He did the right thing. When you deceive someone by offering him dog turd covered in chocolate, the bad taste will never go away. The next time even if you offer him Swiss chocolate, he will reject it. The same thing has happened here. You have deceived everyone here by pretending to be someone neutral. But you ended up adding all sort of third rate stuff which some one even partially civilized will dare to add. when you again pretend that you are someone who is here to implement the Wiki policies rather than to abuse someone, no one is going to believe you
Referring to academic Sadasivan as a "mental caste", "casteist", "anti-Hindu" and "Nazi" but refusing to actually provide any academic or media sources critiquing his academic credibility, and instead offering only OR and "I know that's not right, and you guys don't know anything about India."
Constant allegations of "caste hatred" (a Ctrl-F of the page shows how often this is leveled, with no explanation beyond WP:IDONTLIKEIT)
I feel that myself and Sitush and others are working very hard to add cites, and have been responding to this hostility with simple "please provide refs", "here's why Ref A works", "here's how Ref B doesn't actually say that", and at the worst of moments have edged on "snippy" but nowhere near the level of emotion and hostility employed against us. I emphasise that some editors who are apprehensive about "negative" content are still behaving professionally (such as Rajkris), are debating sources and providing info, etc. But fundamentally three of us are doing massive work, and a whole passel of other folks are basically hanging around the Talk page abusing us, refusing to actually add useful content or provide reasonable refs, etc.
I'm not asking you to weigh in on technical issues (though if you'd recommend some venue to get neutral parties for POV debates, that might be good, WPINDIA isn't proving helpful yet), but I would appreciate it if you could swing by and remind some folks that the level of emotion and vitriol involved (which I would argue is totally one-sided) is undue. If I or any other editor claiming to be "removing POV" has somehow overstepped, I'd be glad to hear about it, but I think those of us doing the bulk of the work have added "positive" and "negative" material in comparable quantities, and yet a contigent screams at us if any single phrase can be interpreted as even slightly compromising Nair prestige. Thanks for any insight. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:10, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give me a few diffs of some of the actual abuses? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:24, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I'm probably not going to have time to do anything tonight, but I should be able to try to help tomorrow - at least issue a few civility warnings -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, do you want me to take this over to a different admin?
I don't know what the fuck is wrong with you people. If you get some sort of pleasure by insulting my caste then ban people like me from Wiki and go ahead with your perverted stuff. Adding derogatory abuses composed by caste fanatics is a great thing to do in wiki. I have again and again asked for the intervention of an Indian moderator (i.e someone with some knowledge about this subject) to this dispute and you have turned down it all the time. I have tried my best to point out the meaninglessness in this edit. But you people can't understand what I am saying. There are more degrading things written about Nairs by bastard Sadasivan. Read all his books and then fill wiki with his shit. Shannon1488 (talk)[1]
16:42, 6 xunu 2011 Robbie.Smit (Alderique | contribuciones) (80,484 bytes) (Call you mother a dog, racist asshole.) (esfacer)[2]
Bolding implied threats: Mister Matthew, I have already told you that I am not interested in what is going on here. I was just going through, perhaps happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time and made a simple comment. But if you want to provoke me by replying rudely, then I swear, I am not like these non-confrontational Nair guys. I'll tear you apart. Like all other communities in Kerala, my community also suffered extreme humiliation from the Nairs. But bygones are bygones. Many of my best friends are Nairs. And I appreciate them for their friendly behavior and helpfulness. This is essentially a Nair vs Nadar fight, and I'd rather sit back and enjoy the show. I don't think Sitush is a Nadar, after seeing this - link, which is evident from his edits as well. Nadars from SIUC / CSI groups are well known for their slum behavior, and both of you (you and cartik) are not an exception. ...I am just making this post because you are acting like a Hollywood film star. You are acting that are not aware of what is insulting going on here. Can you go to the street and tell face-to-face to anyone what you wrote here. I am not sure how many of your teeth will remain intact if you do so. ... Here you are saying all the Nairs are bastards. ... Once again, you Nadar guys are calling Nairs as bastards and Nair women as prostitutes. But what about your own women? .... I have just reminded you that whatever you write about Nairs can backfire on you. So stop shouting at me and concentrate on your work, i.e adding degrading stuff to this article. Riyaz.Pookoya[3]
Don't act OK. I know Sadasivan's works. His only ambition in his life was to degrade Nairs. What the fuck you think is the meaning of that passage? ... then give me a secondary source supporting that, other than that from the mental case Sadasivan... Why you are not adding these things? You want to insult only Nairs? Robbie.Smit (talk) 17:21, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[4][reply]
So you are saying that it is fine if you call us dogs, but it is something terrible if we return the favor? He did the right thing. When you deceive someone by offering him dog turd covered in chocolate, the bad taste will never go away. The next time even if you offer him Swiss chocolate, he will reject it. The same thing has happened here. You have deceived everyone here by pretending to be someone neutral. But you ended up adding all sort of third rate stuff which some one even partially civilized will dare to add. when you again pretend that you are someone who is here to implement the Wiki policies rather than to abuse someone, no one is going to believe you.Axxn (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[5][reply]
I emphasise that nobody has called any of these editors, or the Nair as a class, a "dog", and we have in fact repeatedly reminded them that not only are we not "calling" anyone that, but the cited source himself is saying "here's a Brahmin story that mentions dogs, but it's historically interesting but not true." There are a few folks supporting our "side" who have been a bit rude (KondottySultan, though he has raised some valid points, but in an unfortunately indelicate way), but the primary editors working on the actual article are receiving all the abuse and just weathering it.
Not asking for technical expertise, just someone neutral to let folks know that the above sort of language is completely non-WP. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I should be able to have a word with them later - I'll format a common message that I can tweak to suit each one -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:52, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That would be good, Boing. Thank you. The above snippets are the tip of a much larger iceberg. I am also concerned that some of their authors have flat-out said (sometimes on several occasions) that they have no intent to collaborate in improving the article, which is something I consider to be one of the essentials of involvement in any WP article. - Sitush (talk) 19:57, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've issued a few individual warnings, plus a general one on the Talk page - I haven't warned about any comments in the ANI, as I don't think it would be right to do so after it has been closed. Let's see how it goes - will respond to any further individual incivilities/attacks if and when they occur -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to take a minute to thank you very much for supporting me in my recent RfA. Even though it was unsuccessful, I appreciate your trust. With much gratitude, jsfouche ☽☾Talk 01:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. It really was marginal, and I thought it was going to succeed at one stage - but being so close, I'm pretty confident you'll succeed in a future run. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:10, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing as the confusion on this page is my fault, I've added an explanation of what's going on. Sorry for the trouble. -- Lear'sFool 03:14, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks for the explanation - standard offer seems like the only real option -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Should the question by Malleus be removed or changed in any way? It is clearly more of a statement than a question. Ryan Vesey (talk) 03:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker) This RfA will probably succeed with or without a couple of isolated oppose !votes. In the interests of avoiding drama, which is the main reason why so many good editors refuse to go through the ritual of RfA, I think it's probably best to let sleeping dogs lie. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, let it be - it's given the candidate the chance to respond with what I think is a good answer -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker) To be honest the answer by 28 bytes is indeed excellent, and I actually see no problem in the question. It most certainly should not be removed or refactored. Pedro : Chat 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I posted this before 28bytes answered, but I really like the answer too. It had seemed to me that the question was not asked to gain more information about 28bytes, but was instead asked to deliberately make 28bytes look bad. I didn't know if there was a rule against this. Ryan Vesey (talk) 14:24, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
... and here we go again at Nair
See this. I have reverted this addition of content (originally by another user, who may have been unaware of the sitatuion) twice today & dare not do so again. The article which is linked to is wrong, but that is a discussion/project for another time. The talk page clearly shows lengthy discussions about the claims to kshatriya status (a caste ranking to which practically every Indian caste-ist wants to claim if it is their caste, and deny if it is not). All of the claims have been disproven, time and again. I am getting fed up of this small group of disruptive editors. - Sitush (talk) 14:52, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like someone else has reverted - I've given him a warning not to re-add unsourced material if nobody has been able to verify it, and if it carries on I think we just have to escalate the warnings and ultimately block if necessary. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I do realise that most of these discussions on the article talk page may well go right over your head but that you appreciate that there are 2 or 3 involved contributors at the moment who really are trying to improve the article big time and are providing copious sources etc. There has even been vague talk of taking this to GAN at some point in the future. GA status would be quite a remarkable achievement for a subcontinent caste article but I think that it is do-able if we can get some stability. I would prefer that stability to be via consensus than blocks etc, but it simply is not looking likely. Your oversight is appreciated. - Sitush (talk) 16:18, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes indeed, the discussions of the actual content go whizzing over me at a stratospheric height ;-) But it's quite easy to see who's doing things properly and providing sources, etc, and who's slagging people off as sons of whores for daring to insult their caste. GA for a caste article really would be a remarkable achievement. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just for context, this is pretty much how most major caste articles are. Of probably 800+ caste articles, I'd say easily 100 would involve knock-down-drag-out fights to bring into proper WP compliance (though folks tend to keep removing pov/ce/cu maintenance tags, obscuring the issue). Of the rest, at least 400 would be subject to drive-by IPs reverting to a previours "earlier caste" draft, or swapping in "warrior class" for "labouring class" without even bothering to remove the old footnote. Here's pretty much how cleanup of the 100 high-vis ones tends to go:
Original: The Fooian caste is a glorious caste of warriors and kings, descended from the god So-and-So, and were pretty much the most important caste in the history of India.
NPOVeditor: Let's see, I'll add claims to be descended....[1], remove glorious, and I'll add this anthropology cite saying they were historically bricklayers[2], and a British chronicler work noting they were kings of some small principalities in Fooabad around 1400-1600[3][4] until they lost some wars and took up trades.[5]
AngryFooian: Nonsense, revert.
NPOVeditor: please don't remove cited text without some explanation. I'm restoring for the moment since your revert restored uncited text, please drop into Talk and explain your concerns.
Angrfooian: How dare you sir! The Fooians are the most glorious caste of all time and you are filling Wikipedia with lies and that is why it has no credibility. Your source (from Cambridge) is a liar and lackey of the racist Britishers, and your source (from U of Calcutta) is a frothing Brahmin partisan. You are clearly a member of the ghastly Gooian caste which has oppressed and belittled my people for too long and we will not stand it! If you revert again I shall post on the Gooian page on Facebook alerting the community to this slander, and will contact the Fooian Benevolent Society so that they may bring a lawsuit against Wikipedia for fomenting caste hatred!
Pretty much everything mentioned above has occurred to me (often multiple times) in a few months of doing caste articles. On the bright side, a lot of the smaller working-class castes either aren't on the Internet, or their descendants have changed their last names and dropped their old customs like a live grenade and won't come near an association. Sitush, when we need a break what say we go clean up a few articles on ratcatchers, whisky-distillers, and shrimp fisherman? They seem nice blokes, good anthropology sources, and might actually go a month without a drive-by IP froth.
In any case, thanks Boing! for bringing some outside perspective to this. I'd like to believe our "side" (or so we've been labeled) is working on the side of the angels, so glad that our good intentions are apparent. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That account would be funny if it wasn't so accurate :-) Working on caste articles does look like a bit of a thankless task, so I'm happy to help where I can - and to give recognition to your hard work -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:44, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
problems on publishing
hi Zebedee iam having problems creating a new page on wikipedia, my Page name was BESNIKET. i created this page based on the materials i had from a secure source. iam one of the members of this tifo group and iam sure about the information i publish. for pages like BESNIKET, Peqin Albania, KS Shkumbini Peqin. iam asking you to take the maximum attention to my articles that i publish here on wikipedia.
Many thanks!
Ergys Kajo, Peqin Albania — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ergys89 (talk • contribs) 20:22, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. The article was deleted because it did not give any indication of why the organization is important or significant. Have a look at WP:GROUP for the notability requirements for groups of people, and WP:GNG for the general notability guidelines -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:41, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nair overspill
You will doubtless not be pleased with me! Two of the culprits at the Nair talkpage have taken a pop at reverting legitimate edits on Template:Kshatriya Communities today. The entire issue of whether the Nairs formed part of the kshatriya community has been discussed to death on the Nair talk page, so there is no reason at all why they should be reverting my removal of the caste from this template.
They were involved in the talk page discussions and every one of their numerous provided sources turned out not to support the claim that they were making. Just a heads up. - Sitush (talk) 21:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A bit of a similar issue at Category:Kshatriya. Given that Category:Nair and Category:Rajputs are subcats thereof, I've been moving all Nair and Rajput in the parent cat into their caste subcats. However, the cat tree now shows all Nair as Kshatriya. I don't know if there's any comfy way to pick-and-choose which Nair are considered Kshatriya by people other then themselves, and/or by people outside of Kerala where the Nairs have influence. Honestly, it's a similar issue with Rajputs (not to mention the scores of clans who suddenly "discovered" Rajput status in recent centuries and are disavowed my the major Rajput clans). It's a tough issue of claimed status, vice "how widely is this believed?" vice "supported by academics" status. Unfortunately, as we've seen these also seem to be part of deeply-held origin myths, so it greatly upsets certain editors when the fact that these designations are contested is noted in the article. MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:15, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've blocked Shannon1488 for a week for edit warring on Template:Kshatriya Communities to reintroduce a contested addition - I haven't blocked the other editor, who only added it once. I've also protected the template for 2 weeks - let me know if it needs unprotecting. I really don't know what to do about the categories though, sorry -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:37, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. There may be a need to remove Tamil Kshatriya from that list before a fortnight is up, since that article is extremely likely to disappear before then, but I guess that a redlink in a template for a few extra days makes little odds.
I have just attempted to address the issue in the lead of Nair with this edit. My feeling is that the thing needs to be tackled early on in order to provide an opportunity for warring editors to see the two "sides". As I say in my edit summary, feel free to revert it. I do appreciate that it may have zero effect. - Sitush (talk) 12:43, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That might help, yes - but are there any sources to document that the belief exists? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:11, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there are near enough 100 listed on the talk page where the claims are referred to, being practically every source provided by Shannon. The problem is that these are generally old sources and although none of them actually admit the claim to be correct (and many deny it is correct), modern-day members of the caste continue to misread them/take them out of context etc. The academic debate has long moved on from this but plenty of (unreliable, by definition) websites persist in it. It is a somewhat awkward thing to deal with using reliable and modern and, indeed, is one of those situations where a circular reference to the talk page would prove the point!
The claim is discussed to some degree in the second para of Caste system section and the para immediately above the subsection titled Nair#Attempts_to_achieve_caste_cohesion - both are cited. It is also mentioned obliquely in footnote 7, where Panikkar (a Nair himself) says that Kshatriyas were sometimes used to perform one of the Nair "marriage" rituals - the people who performed these rituals were selected from higher ranks in society, which is discussed in the article body. The article sort of invites the reader to do their own synthesis, I guess. An early 20C census report commented on the claims and denounced them, but I would rather not use it unless we must because (a) it is old and (b) it may well have been looking at things through the eyes of the British Raj, which could be jaundiced.
I really do not know how to deal with this in a non-inflammatory manner, especially since there is the potential of adding undue weight in what is already a lengthy article. The whole situation is a mess. As I see things, this is more of an issue relating to contributors to Wikipedia than it is to readers of it. I would rather than the insert I made earlier did not exist but am trying to pour oil over troubled waters. Feel free to revert it. - Sitush (talk) 14:34, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I get what you mean. I'd prefer to avoid making content changes myself, as I wouldn't be able to do any admin things if I got involved - I'll leave the content decisions to you folks who know more about it. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:00, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I understand the "involved" issue. I just wanted to ensure that you were aware I had added something that some people may in fact consider to be baiting. I do not see it as baiting, but in this peculiar world there is no guessing how others might see it. In other words, if someone should come along and remove it then I am really not that fussed and would not expect you to consider such a revert as edit warring etc. - Sitush (talk) 15:06, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your furious defense of the racist propaganda posted by Sitush & Co. makes me wonder whether you are his homosexual wife. So, are you gay? There are many other easier ways to do it. You can protect the article and give exclusive edit rights to the trio. I don't know why you are having such hatred towards us... may be because some of you were illegitimate children produced by Nair fathers.. is it so? Robbie.Smit (talk) 16:29, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
