User talk:Evensteven

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Easter[edit]

Greetings, oracle. I see that your "pagan" entry was overturned again. And I am aware of the claims that some people want to make about the associations, and why. I thought you should be aware that "Easter" is not really even the name of observance. It is, and always was, the Christian celebration of Jesus' resurrection, which is why it is completely international in spread. And its name almost everywhere is "Pascha", excepting only areas where the English language took precedence in recent centuries due to the spread of the British Empire. That is (therefore) widespread, but it is not predominant, either in region or in history. Variations of "Pascha" are also to be found in a variety of English-speaking areas, although its use has receded (not disappeared), and even in so heavily-influenced an area as Scotland. It's all documented here. So, your opinion is heard and recognized, and many others have expressed similar ones in the past, but there has never been sufficient grounds for establishing more than unobtrusive claims, and nothing close to "exclusively pagan". So please don't be frustrated, but be fully aware that recognized, reliable sources are the basis for making edits, and consideration of recognition or reliability rests with the editing community as a whole rather than with individuals. Thanks.

By the way, although you may see I am a Christian, I am not one who personally gets upset about notions of associations between Christians and pagans, now or historically. It happened, time and time again; it was inevitable, and quite the opposite of a bad thing for all involved, whatever their beliefs. And about that, nothing has changed, either. Evensteven (talk) 22:32, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

@Evensteven:, I'm not too worried about it to be honest. In the UK, it is taught in primary school that Easter was celebrated well before the founding of Christianity. It is taught that Easter is the name of the Pagen goddess of fertility, celebrated with symbols of fertility such as rabbits, lambs and eggs. The goddess Easter also lends her name to the female fertility hormone oestrogen or estrogen. Being a Christian, I don't think you're best placed making contributions to Christian pages as bias would be always be a factor. Perhaps instead you could try to figure out how to fit 3 days and 3 nights between a single event on Good Friday and a single event on Easter Sunday :-) The oracle 2015 (talk) 11:46, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Oh, it took me around 7 seconds to find this article on a very reputable website; Pagan Roots of Easter The oracle 2015 (talk) 20:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
My, how secular religion is being absorbed in the UK. Reputable website? Perhaps for some things. But without even a mention of the author of the article? That, at least, couldn't be accepted as reliable. I also can't see how failing to be a Christian makes it possible for one to understand anything about the religion. Oh, dates and other raw data can be memorized and processed, but that's a far cry from understanding. Turns out that is a working principle in every scholastic discipline, also.
As for counting, a little secular knowledge is sufficient. Zero had not been invented in Christ's time; in fact, it was six centuries later that the first notion of it turned up in India, another two centuries to be available to the Arabs, who passed it on to a European or two in the 1200s, where it still was almost unknown for another two to three hundred years. What's the impact? Everyone counted like the Romans - not because of Roman political dominance, but because it was the reasonable way to count when you have no zero. Remember Roman numerals? Ask this: how many days from Monday to Thursday? Roman answer: four. Monday is 1, Tuesday 2, Wed 3, Thu 4. You say, but we don't count Monday! Why? Because we start at zero. Monday is zero with us. The Romans would have said that you are in error because you forgot to count Monday, and when they count, they start at one. For this reason, they would say that Thursday is the fourth day after Monday. I know it violates our modern sensibilities, but scholars understand the principle well.
The Church never said "three days and three nights" between the crucifixion and resurrection, it said "three days": Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And it was not counting hours; it was counting days. Christ spent "three days in the tomb": Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Not 72 hours, but he was buried Friday before sunset (so that it could be done before the Jewish Sabbath began), lay there all day Saturday (the only full 24-hour-type "day"), and arose on Sunday, which began as the sun set on Saturday, making it sometime during the night. The Bible records that the myrrh-bearing women came to the tomb "early in the morning" of Sunday, bearing spices to complete the burial rituals, having waited for enough light to work by on the day after the Sabbath (Saturday). Believe the account or historicity of the resurrection or not as you will, but the counting of three days makes perfect sense for that time. No Christian has ever counted 72 hours, or three days and three nights. The Church's services, 1600 years old in the case of the Orthodox, continue the age-old celebration and observation. But three days is really not confusing in that context because the details make plain that you're not talking about 72 hours, or three nights. Now, if you were a Christian, you would know that out of hand, and would never have stumbled into that silly suggestion. A little understanding is all it takes, and not even religious understanding all the time. Christians are just as able to be unbiased as non-Christians, and non-Christians have no advantage there either. It's about understanding. Evensteven (talk) 07:26, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Sir, there are no notable secular religions in Great Britain. The only secular religion I'm aware of is Buddhism and there's very few in Britain. Those without religion and Christians make up the bulk of the population here. Whilst I acknowledge that there is not a Roman numeral for zero, I doubt very much that on the adoption of Arabic numerals by the West, the value of Roman numerals increased by one. The Roman numeral III has a value of 3 and always has had. And are you seriously complaining that the authorship of the article to which I referred you is almost as anonymous as the biblical authors? The oracle 2015 (talk) 08:40, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@The oracle 2015: Oh, please; we're not communicating very well here. Buddhism is not a secular religion; it is a religion, pure and simple. By secular religion I am referring to the modern practice followed by many people of rejecting "religion" (by which most mean Christianity first, but all others too). They take their values from the world around them, which makes them "secular", and adopt what they individually find suitable. But they do have values, and they hold these values in much the same way as those who follow a religion do. They believe in them, follow them, and hold them to be true. Many hate it when I say they "have faith in them", but this is what I mean by that. And their predispositions, orientations, and viewpoints are held as the crux points of their opinions. Some people describe that as "bias". I don't. I think bias occurs only when those orientations and opinions become a barrier, preventing people from talking or sharing or understanding one another about those matters, and preventing them from doing an evaluation of them that does not involve either acceptance or rejection. Now followers of a religion, Christians included, have predispositions, orientations, and viewpoints like everyone else, and if they have adopted an "organized" religion (rather than taking an individualized approach), many of them follow a commonly-held set of them. Secularists likewise tend to collect commonly-held sets of values and beliefs and follow them, loosely or strictly. It is the organizing construct by which they make sense of life, just as it is for followers of a religion. And that is what constitutes what is basically a "secular religion". And just as some religious people seem to be unable to separate themselves from bias, so do some secularists. It is not universal among either, but it is common among both.
Some secularists really dislike "religion" (though they may differ as to what they mean by that). So, they also tend to dislike the way I have phrased things in the paragraph above. That bias makes them think I as a Christian am trying to foist some sort of religion back on them, although I am not. Now, I'm not getting a strong sense that you're one of those, but perhaps you recognize the thing I am referring to. What I see as a Christian is that secularists who are strongly "anti-religion" are mostly anti-Christian. That is, they cast all religions aside, but what really grabs them in talking about it lies in rejecting Christianity specifically. It produces attitudes like "Christians are always biased but secularists are not". And those attitudes become commonplace enough to be adopted (loosely) also by the less adamant. The primary flaw in the attitude is not its anti-Christian stance, but its tendency to categorize groups of people as though they were uniformly homogeneous in belief and practice. "People" (in general) just aren't that way, neither secularists, nor Christians, even though certain individuals are. Now when anyone, loosely or adamantly, rejects some belief, or some religion, they tend not to learn much about it; it is of no interest to them. They lose sight of details that make a large difference, and may ridicule what they don't know or understand. They then face a choice: to pursue ridicule, or when presented with an opportunity to understand more, to pursue an increase of understanding.
I respect your doubts (as you describe them above), and have not yet seen you "pursue ridicule". Yet your predisposition is to be "doubtful" to the point of dismissiveness. How have I implied in any way that the Roman numeral III does not have the value of 3, or that any of them increased in value by one? To phrase it again, I have said that because we have zero, we count differently today than was done earlier. Specifically, we use zero as our base point for beginning. Counting the days from Monday to Thursday, for example, we set Monday as the zero-point, and say that Tuesday is one day later, Thursday is three days later. In effect, we do not "count" Monday. The ancients did otherwise. They would have said "you are counting days from Monday to Thursday, so it's an error not to count Monday". So Monday counts as one, and Thursday is described as four days later. It's counting without zeroes. But the ancients certainly were not making arithmetic errors. They knew that the sun, having already arisen on Monday, that when it had arisen three more times it would be Thursday. That's what it meant to them to say "Thursday is four days after Monday". Again, please just check out some scholarship that deals with Roman counting to see if you can't understand this. And check with a computer scientist (I am one) about "off-by-one" errors in algorithms; even zero-based arithmetic requires proper care in counting. Perhaps I'm not saying it in a way that is getting the idea across to you. But I'm not in error about it, and it can be verified, and it's really nothing to do with Christianity.
About the article: without an author's name to verify, sources are not accepted on WP as reliable sources. That's all I meant. It doesn't take the Bible as reliable (in that sense) either. The Bible is referred to in articles as references to items being discussed in articles, as the source for this or that Christian interpretation, etc. It's a reliable reference to the origin, not a source used to verify what's being said about the topic.
I hope things are a bit clearer now. Evensteven (talk) 11:59, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Let's try this too, an example of counting in computer science. Say you need to process some items from an existing list, specifically items 12 through 17. (Assume the list was once shorter, but is now 17 items long, and these are the new items needing processing which has already been done on the others.) Your algorithm must send each item individually through the instructions that process it, forming a loop in which each pass through takes care of one item. And to know when to quit, the algorithm needs to count how many times it has already completed the loop, looping back until the count is satisfied, quitting the loop when all items are done. What is the count? If you subtract 12 from 17 and get 5, then you have an "off-by-one" counting error. You'd be surprised how often this little thing comes up in programs. The correct count is six. In effect, you must count the items the way the Romans would have: item 12 is "1", item 13 is "2", etc to item 17 is "6". Item 12 is the starting point, and it is not left out by treating that point as zero. It's the "Monday" in the Romans' "four days from Monday to Thursday". The Romans knew how to apply their counting properly, just as we do, but it's just two different systems that are "off-by-one" from each other. Evensteven (talk) 12:21, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't care if people choose to be superstitious, that's not what this is about; if one chooses to believe Jesus died for our sins, that the Koran was dictated to Mohammad by an angel or simply like having their palms read or to read the stars. My only argument is that it is widely believed that Easter has Pagen origins and should be included in the Wikipedia article as per Wikipedia guidelines. Any doubts or evidence to the contrary can be outlined in the article. The Wikipedia should be as accurate as possible and broad and not be used as a tool by Christians like yourself to rewrite history.

You're right, almost the whole of Great Britain (especially England) and Western Europe are largely secular. Even most 'Christians' here have never prayed or been to church (half of which have now closed down). Religion, in this modern age, is generally linked to poor education and under developed countries. The oracle 2015 (talk) 08:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that you consider religion to be false, and that is your choice. Is it necessary always to be derogatory about it, though? And perhaps you didn't know, but both palm reading and astrology are considered to be incompatible with Christianity.
And respectfully, oracle, no one is trying to rewrite history except those who claim Easter has pagan origins. True, the English name is derived from that of a pagan goddess, not a festival. The Christian feast mostly goes by a different name, and historically it was always Christian, never pagan. Yes, I know you want to make claims about eggs. Pagans used eggs as a symbol; Christians have also used eggs as a symbol, from ancient times. Symbols for what? Are you seriously maintaining that two symbols, just because they use the same object, are therefore the same thing, even though they represent different things? Do you understand the difference between spiritual life and bodily fertility? Your claim is attempting to equate the two, and it's simply a non sequitur and a malaprop. A good education makes it possible for one to distinguish things that are different, and not to confuse them. But I'd say that a choice to reject learning amounts to willful ignorance. Surely that is inclined to lead to superstitious belief, yes? Say, a belief that religion is generally linked to poor education? Or that one can be a Christian and yet not pray or go to church? The source of your information is suspect, and undependable, perhaps because you have looked only at the secular, and have therefore never seen else. That is, however, correctable. Evensteven (talk) 19:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
The thing is with religion, most of us are wrong. No single religion has a following of over half the world's population and neither do those without religion make up over half the world's population. In a world where the majority are wrong on the subject of religion, should be enough for anyone to believe none are true. On the subject of Easter, there is no stronger evidence that the festival originated from Christianity than evidence it originated from Paganism. We can only be certain that Easter in modern times marks the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. The oracle 2015 (talk) 18:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, you're incorrect about the evidence: there is none at all that Easter originated from paganism. That is supposition interlaced with assumption. And since when did it require half of any number of people to determine what is true? Let me remind you that democracy is a (relatively) recent phenomenon. It only appeared once before, in Greece, and then it lasted only a couple of centuries before falling apart. Its state of health and efficacy in modern times is also subject to question. I'm not saying I necessarily prefer another system, but what we have is hardly a political utopia. Just how is voting about religion supposed to indicate anything meaningful? Evensteven (talk) 20:24, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You misunderstood or misread. I was simply trying to demonstrate that the majority of the world's population are wrong on the subject of religion. The oracle 2015 (talk) 14:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Ok, I can certainly agree with that. I just don't see that it has much significance. The majority of the world's population is wrong on most subjects. And that's not surprising in itself, either. We are finite beings, after all, and the world is full of subjects; how could we know them all enough to get beyond the common suppositions that often err? Some people feel dwarfed looking at the night sky. I grant that beholding the universe stretched out is an awesome and mighty sight. But being aware of one's relative size and limitations doesn't mean we need to take a self-limiting view. Often, significance is not demonstrated by quantity or measure. Small things often matter a lot. Our lives last only a few decades and our power to do things with them last only as long as our feeble strength, but what of that? Life matters, more than all that stuff around us. And I surely would not be particularly intimidated to learn that a majority of any population didn't think so. But I'd find it rewarding to find one other who agreed. Isn't that the measure that makes a difference to most people? Evensteven (talk) 16:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Hymn[edit]

Can you please explain the difference of hymn and chorale? I asked several people who couldn't. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Sure, glad to. First of all, a hymn is the prayer/text, sometimes poetic rather than prose, often so in the west in the last several hundred years. In some traditions, especially western, the text may be written by an individual for the purpose of prayer explicitly, or it may be a poem written in a prayerful idiom that someone found useful for hymnody. In the east, and before ca 1500/1600 in the west, it is more common for a hymn to be a prayer first, often of anonymous or unrecorded composition, or perhaps known to be composed by a prominent saint. The hymn then partakes of the musical practice common to the church tradition, often acquiring it from use in church services, and again often "anonymously". The anonymity is generally purposeful, the contributions, individual or combined, of those in the church, who seek no recognition for themselves, but given of their gifts to the glory of God. You see how very far this is from modern "authorship" in search of publication, and from set arrangements of style, scoring, etc., as supported in the templates.
Next, is the hymn "tune" (for lack of a better term), which is a melody (often nothing more), perhaps with parts, often vocal, in a chordal or contrapuntal setting that may or may not be fixed in relation to the tune when it is used. Tunes are generally written for a specific hymn text, but often, being poetic text, other texts of other hymns will match the poetic scan of the original one, and then the tune will fit with those texts also, and may be used with it in hymnody. Anglicans publish the scan pattern in their hymnals, and choir directors can reference those to select a hymn text (by number), but substitute an alternate tune to be used in a service - a common practice among the more knowledgeable church musicians. In Byzantine hymnody, poetic patterning is less pronounced, and the rhythmic relation to the tune is less strict, with interpolations and improvisations within the tune often used to fill in or bridge inexact fits. Thus, a tune may be more or less fixed, according to the tradition involved and the time of origin.
A chorale is a mostly fixed western-style composition of known individual author, a musical form developed in the Baroque era, for which J.S.Bach and others of his time were well known. It has persisted into the present, with a gradually lessening prominence over centuries and decades as the various churches who continue older traditions have had diminishing funds with which to support music. The chorale was written by such individual church musicians, often in the employ of a noble patron who was supporting the church through his patronage (Bach spent many years in such employ), and there was often a requirement for one or more new compositions for each Sunday's service, and especially elaborate for great feasts. The chorale is one of the many forms that were produced for such purposes. Many of the forms incorporated the growing use and prominence of the organ in western rites, which also developed into a large-scale instrument from what had been much smaller. Of course, the organ was first used to accompany singing, but gradually came to be written for on its own account also.
As you might surmise from the name, the "chorale" was first composed for and sung by a choir, a choral work, sometimes (often) consisting of a hymn tune set into vocal parts (4 or 5 parts were common). J. S. Bach produced hundreds of these relatively simple settings/harmonizations, often studied by beginning students of harmony. However, being both derivative and simple, they are not generally included prominently among his "original" works. (This is more in line with the older traditional pattern among church musicians.) However, for great feasts (like Christmas or Easter), more elaborate compositions were called for. These generally involved organ accompaniment, often written out as a "part", and sung by a large choir. The musical setting was also more elaborate and ornamental, often somewhat contrapuntal at least, or fully so, the vocal parts becoming independent of each other, each sometimes raised to prominence above the others for a span, yet fitting together as one composition - a far cry from a straightforward note-against-note uniform chordal style so characteristic of hymns written for congregational use. Yet this kind of chorale is to most intents and purposes a hymn designed to be especially sung by a professional choir, for the edification and hearing of the congregation rather than their direct participation. The hymn tune employed may have been original, or it may have existed prior to the writing of the chorale, but the whole amounts to an original composition in effect.
With all the effort of producing this kind of music, a new chorale might also be used by the organ alone, perhaps in the recessional music immediately following the end of the church service proper. The organ might play the essentials of the written vocals parts, or (more frequently) the organist would improvise upon the hymn tune and/or chorale parts, including recognizable portions. This led to another related form you may also have heard of or wondered about: the chorale prelude. This was a composition generally for organ alone, used before or after a service as musical fill related to the service. It was elaborate to begin with, and grew more elaborate, and freer and more improvisatory in style. It did, however, still incorporate a hymn tune, often a simple-note version of a tune well known to the listeners, melody only. This tune would appear throughout the composition in the simplicity of its long-duration notes, surrounded by the many interpolations of the "accompaniment" and ornamentations, often also of considerable separate musical interest, but contrasting with the hymn tune so that both could be readily perceived simultaneously. Finally, the phrases of the hymn tune were often presented one by one with intermediary sections that were all elaboration, so that one has the sense of departing and always returning to the hymn tune. Of course, these are considered entirely original compositions.
The chorale and chorale prelude developed within a European tradition after the Renaissance, and were never a part of other church traditions, either earlier or in other churches such as eastern ones. In fact, no similar kind of elaborations, nor instrumentation, form a part of eastern (Orthodox) traditions at all, although some Orthodox churches have been influenced by surrounding Catholic or Protestant traditions where they have met. Such meeting is more common in the modern era than ever before, but the influence is not making large inroads into worship practices integrated closely with church rubrics and canons.
I hope this gives you not just some raw information, but the ability to put it into some perspective. Thanks for asking. It's been pleasant for me to put this bit of material together. Cheers. Evensteven (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, appreciated, let's continue after vacation, have a good one, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
I'll be pleased to. Not a vacation, though, but personal business; not business, though, but personal (if you understand: "business" makes it sound like there would be Internet). Talk to you more in a few weeks. Evensteven (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Earth[edit]

Re: "nice" replacement of one sentence by two.

I'd almost nominate this as a classic answer to KISS. It's usually better to compress information. Editors are often too wordy. This is the first instance, and one of the best, that I've seen where two sentences were required instead of one; all for the best reasons. Wish I could find a place for it in WP:MOS policy. Student7 (talk) 17:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks much! Really, I was quite happy with how it turned out, too. I'm not always able to hit the mark in quite so satisfying a way, but this one just fell together. KISS can be very useful, although my thought while doing this edit was more on just keeping focus and not introducing more material than necessary. I've always quite liked that engineering adage that says the designer knows he's done not when there's nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to take away. Works for writing too. Cheers. Evensteven (talk) 23:07, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Lewis[edit]

Re your edit [1] : Lewis denied that LWW was an allegory. It would, in any event, have been a very imprecise allegory. He said, rather, that it was an attempt to imagine how Christ might appear in another world and another history. Many things are different; many principles remain the same. But it was not meant as an allegory. -- Elphion (talk) 23:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

@Elphion: Indeed, quite right; that was the most problematic thing about the reverted edit. I didn't say it is allegory. Instead, I would say it makes allusions to Christianity in many ways. Lewis was right too, of course. The IP may not have known the difference, as many don't, and the allusions are clear and have been well-known since the books were first published. That is why the IP's edit was not OR. You could probably find sources that confirm the widespread perception (although I wouldn't be the one to burden the article with that). The point of my edit is that the editors, presumably the ones considering the IP's edit to be OR, are also guilty of a misperception on that point. An edit can be mistaken without being OR. Do you understand my point now? Evensteven (talk) 04:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I take your point that the IP is not the only person to have spouted this, but OR need not be an opinion unique to one editor. Random unsourced material clearly grounded in ignorance is indistinguishable from OR, and routinely gets treated as such. More to the point, your use of a dummy edit is not an effective way to handle this. Dummy edits are useful primarily to correct a mistake or omission in one's own edit comments. Otherwise they look like drive-by shootings. There's not enough space for a discussion (and I, at least, completely misunderstood what you were trying to say). If you feel strongly enough to correct another editor's misapprehension, start a conversation on the talk page (or better, on the user talk page of the editor you're addressing). Your typical editor won't engage your dummy edits; they will be ignored, and they just clutter up the edit history. -- Elphion (talk) 14:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sometimes I tend to be verbose, and have just had another run (elsewhere) with reigning myself in. So when I started a talk page edit, I edited myself and did the dummy edit instead. Well, it can be tough making those choices, and sometimes I don't please everyone. Sorry if this looked like a drive-by shooting; that's precisely what I was trying to avoid. As for WP:OR, we may have a difference of opinion, and it is one I feel strongly about. Like "vandalism", I find it's an accusation made frequently towards other editors, and sometimes without sufficient cause. It's often associated with bad faith editing as well, and I think its use must be made carefully so as not to imply bad faith itself. That is exactly what I saw in the OR reference in the revert of the IP's edit. There's no question of the edit being wrong, unverifiable, if you look at it literally. But sorry, I don't think OR is meant to apply to edits made in good faith and resulting from an intention to fill an informational hole. Look at the actual policy again. It refers to "facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist", and "a reliable source must be provided for ... anything challenged or likely to be challenged". Well, in a literal sense that may be so about "allegory". But on what basis can anyone assume that the IP really knows what an allegory is, or that he was trying to go on a soapbox or something? It is all too plausible to think he was actually thinking "allusion" or something like it when he wrote "allegory", which is why I bring up longstanding popular impressions again. Now perhaps that's a measure of the IP's editing competence, or perhaps his research competence, or perhaps it was even an unintended malapropos, not saying exactly what he meant. I've sometimes used the wrong word in something I've written in quite a similar way, and haven't always caught it in time. We need to have a little perspective as editors on how to apply the policies. They're not rules and regulations, but guidelines. And we also need to weigh them against other policies when we apply them. One of the big ones is also "assume good faith", something that, while being thrown about all over the place in disagreements is sadly neglected at other times. But AGF is the fuel WP runs on. It ensures that people can come and enjoy making a contribution. Editing becomes more fun, even when you mess up. And being corrected no longer feels like a put-down. Well, I have pretty thick skin in some ways, about myself. But I watch all the talk about long-time editors leaving WP, and see newbies poorly poorly treated, etc. And I know WP suffers for that. If it ever gets out of control, WP will die. So I treat that seriously. And here we have a newbie, an IP making a first edit, overturned on implications of bad faith. Maybe he realizes that, maybe not. But we can see it. And we can prevent it. And if we think twice about the whole situation, and start by actually assuming good faith, we should be able to see all sorts of reasons why this editor got it wrong. Then we can also see that OR is overkill, and not the only way to put the edit in perspective, and not the best way to handle the situation. Because we don't just deal with edits; we deal with people.
No shooting being done here, either; just reminding. But perhaps you can now see why I feel strongly enough to say something. It's a matter of emphasis. And it's a matter of choice. It's always a matter of choice how we apply a policy. One can be right in a literal sense, and way off in what matters, unless one takes precautions. Evensteven (talk) 15:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, don't agree. I don't associate OR with bad faith editing. Summarized briefly, it means "This might be true, but you need to back it up with reliable sources. Otherwise it's just your opinion." As to what the IP meant: it is not our job to read minds. "OR" is a convenient and appropriate way to prod for more info. Otherwise life is too short. -- Elphion (talk) 16:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Well and good, as long as we understand each other. No objections to your attitude about OR; that works. I could join you readily in that type of usage, except that I've seen it used otherwise on WP too many times, with unpleasant results. Life's too short for that too. Believe me, I'm not for mind reading! I'm talking about giving the benefit of the doubt: that it's too easy to assume one thing or the other, so tread gently. But frankly, I'm heartened to see your response. It's good to know that an attitude like yours is still strong and firm on WP, as I've had some doubts. Here's to good faith: cheers! Evensteven (talk) 20:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)