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Interesting discussion about synthesis at Garage punk talk page

There is an interesting discussion about synthesis at Garage punk talk page, started by an editor who sprinkled citations in the article with false "not stated in source" tags and seems to think that commonly understood and accurate generalizations about the form expressed in the article constitute WP:SYNTH. Garagepunk66 (talk) 05:28, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

This is not the first time that particular editor has taken that approach to an article. Lead paragraphs are not required to include references anyway (WP:CITELEAD) - they are supposed to summarise the referenced text in the full article. So, I would simply remove the citations and the tags, and check that the opening paragraphs give an accurate summary of the key aspects of the article as a whole. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:13, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
He did some fine work for the "Good Vibrations" article. I even gave him a barnstar for it. But, he needs to learn to be more tactful and not be so judgmental. He is sometimes overzealous in the way he interprets guidelines. But, I tried to make some changes that he would find acceptable, so I think the issue there has now been addressed. I'll go into the article and modify it in such a way that we can remove the citations in the lead section. I could make sure that all of the lead statements are addressed (and sourced) in the main text. I'll get to it when I have some spare time. Thanks. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:44, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
Ghmyrtle, I thought the issue at the garage punk article had been diffused, but apparently not. I made a few more changes and removed another "synthesis" template. There is an ongoing discussion there. Garagepunk66 (talk) 07:28, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Juke Blues

Do you have a copy of this rag's issue containing :- Brian Baumgartner, "Unheralded Legend of R&B and Still Singing the Blues: Piney Brown". Juke Blues, volume 48, pp. 28-37 ? If so, can you enhance [1] ??

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 18:45, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I put my copies of Juke Blues "somewhere safe", some time ago. Sadly, I now have no idea where they are. No doubt buried under mountains of other stuff that I just put to one side for future reference.... In any case, I don't think I have copies going that far back (2000?). The magazine is now sadly defunct, I believe... Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:51, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
Okay. I have misplaced a few things too - mainly marbles. Piney Brown (as "transferred" to me) is now up and running. Is he covered in your recent acquisition ? If so, I trust the details concur. Cheers,
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:25, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Lillian Offitt

One for you by way of return ? I believe she had at least one sizable US Billboard R&B chart hit (c. 1957, Excello Records). see here. Perhaps she is listed in one or another of your books too. Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:20, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. Never heard of her. "She was last sighted in 1974 as part of the Streakers Rated-X Revue." There must be an Offitt joke there somewhere. Leave it with me. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:33, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Very little to go on. There are a fair number of passing references here, and BARE has her born on Nov 4, 1937, not 1938 as in Allmusic, and born in Gallatin, Tennessee, not Nashville. I think she is the sister of this George Offitt (same father?). Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:08, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

opps reverted

Sorry I just reverted your edit to United Kingdom. Did not mean to was just going over the list that had this change to it and it was listed 2 times. Just fixing over link spam by a user.....if you think the generic article helps readers understand the country better pls feel free to revert again. (keep in mind the type of government is in the second paragraph). -- Moxy (talk) 18:18, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

"Country" is a very general term, with many overlapping but different definitions. "Sovereign state" is a specific type of country. Its use gives specific information, and a link, and it should be retained. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:30, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
"Sovereign state" is not more specific....in fact more vague and confusing. Basically your making our readers have to read the article Sovereign state to learn its a country . But i will not revert if you guys at that article think the first link to an article that does not even mention the UK let alone its type of government is a good idea - I shall leave the runaround link. All the best.. -- Moxy (talk) 18:51, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Tiny Topsy

Could you have a look in my sandbox at the article on Teeny Weeny Topsy Flopsy. I tried to find the relevant pages online for her at Eagle, Bob; LeBlanc, Eric S. (2013). Blues - A Regional Experience. You might know they are blank ! There maybe something therein that is better than I have. Ta,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:13, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Eddie Cooley

One of your own. Have you now got anything more to add than Edward J. "Eddie" Cooley (born c. 1930) ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:45, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Sadly not. "BARE" (as we call it) doesn't mention him, and I think I was scraping the barrel of global knowledge somewhat when I pulled that lil' ol' stub together. No idea if he's alive or dead. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:50, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Does BARE (as we all call it now) cover either Nolan Welsh, Bob Call, James Wiggins (James "Boogie It" Wiggins or James "Boodle It" Wiggins) or Elzadie Robinson ? All of them seem to be about as obscure as the Blind Leroy Garnett you gifted me. I worry about notability on artists such as these. Put it another way, there is not a lot to go on with Garnett, even with BARE.

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:35, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

It randomly gives almost no info about some notable people, and some usable info about more obscure ones like Garnett. There's not a lot of info about him, but it has birth and death dates and places, some usable personal info, and some commentary on his recordings with James Wiggins. Nolan Welsh (or Welch) - only a birth month and place. Bob Call - birth and death dates and places, and refers to him as "important session musician". James Wiggins - no info at all apart from a brief mention in the Garnett entry. Elzadie Robinson - birth and probable death dates and places, and again a brief commentary. Not much to go on really. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:03, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Professor Eddie Lusk

The online version of BARE is not that forthcoming (apart from birth/death dates, which I sourced elsewhere) and his full birth name. Is your printed copy able to enhance the present version in my sandbox ? Thanks,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 18:23, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

No, that's as much info as it has. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:33, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Earring George Mayweather

Have you got anything I have missed on Earring George ? His potential article is in my sandbox. Ta,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:17, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Not much - but BARE states he was born in 1927, not 1928. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:14, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
OK - well, I will go with 1927 then. Cheers - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 18:25, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

No commas before Jr.

Re this edit, please see WP:JR. I'm removing the commas again. Thanks. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:09, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Brexit aftermath (Wales)

I am not too sure. Wales DID vote Leave, or for Brexit. Scotland and Northern Ireland did not. They are clearly a different case. The only ones who are screaming the loudest seems to be Plaid (Plaid Cymru), and about probably half of the Labour MPs from Wales and AMs in the Assembly in Cardiff! I really do think that Wales is a separate case. Up to you, though! -- 87.102.116.36 (talk) 10:13, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Brexit aftermath (London and Greater London)

The difference between London and Greater London is really bordering on extreme pedantry, especially to those who live outside of "The Smoke" (including yours faithfully!); anyway, I also think that London and Gt London ... well, should they be listed, at all?! The article is probably all silly season nonsense during June, July and August, we "probably" all know that! Almost everyone here in England (and knows a bit about politics) knows that "London independence" is just a bit of a laugh, a joke, that's that, and nowt, nothing more than that! -- 87.102.116.36 (talk) 10:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

The problem with your edits was that they included a discussion of Wales under the heading "Scotland and Northern Ireland". So, I changed the heading and moved paragraphs round. That's all. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:49, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Metal in the castle

It's probably true (but no, I can't source it) that Sepultura recorded or filmed a video in Chepstow Castle. Lots of stuff recorded at Rockfield Studio nipped down to Chepstow for filming, as the nearest convenient castle. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:40, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Indeed... it was the thought that they would record music in the castle that seemed vanishingly unlikely. But, it's apparently true..... Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:59, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Sunny Gale

I found some in-depth sources on this singer, but I wonder if she is still alive. One source says she is in a retirement home; however, that was nearly six years ago. Gale would be 89 by now, which is a very obtainable age today, but I was wondering if you could search your database to confirm this. Her birth name is Selma Sega if that helps. Thank you, as always.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:31, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

A good find!! She was alive in 2013 - that site has contact details for someone who is in touch with her, if you want to check. I don't really have very good sources for recent deaths, other than what I pick up from social media - but I do have sources for her chart placings, if you need them. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:42, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, I came across her name when I wrote the Du Droppers page. I would appreciate if you could list the chart sources just so I know I am accurate with anything I find.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:33, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
I've added the info I have to your sandbox - obviously it's up to you how you use or format it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:07, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

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Butch Cage

After I write the Sunny Gale article, I was planning to write about the fiddler James "Butch" Cage. However, I am having a problem with deciding the title. Cage is best-remembered for working with Willie B. Thomas. Would it be better to write an article about the both of them, titled Butch Cage and Willie B. Thomas? I never came across something like this because I either am writing about a group or an individual so I thought you may have the answer.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

It depends whether either or both of them did much notable work outside the duo context - and I don't see any evidence that they did. Both Allmusic and Stefan Wirz have them as a duo. I would just write a single article for the pair of them - see Category:Musical duos for plenty of other examples. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:57, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Robert Mersey

William Mersey is the infamous son of Robert Mersey. Google him, and you'll find the article about his web site, Dollar Bill's Psycho Website. In the site, he writes about his father, Robert Mersey, and how he met his second wife in England (in a strip club), etc. etc. etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emigoonie (talk • contribs) 04:54, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Your additions are wholly unsourced and (per MOS:BLP) defamatory of living people. Again, they have been removed. If you persist you will be blocked from editing. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:09, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

sorry i don't know how to send you a message, but everything i wrote is sourced and factual. check the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS article below. and also check William Mersey's blog about his step mom Pam Sawyer (entitled Stripper Made Good) below: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/escort-website-boss-fined-3-5m-not-paying-income-taxes-article-1.2817858 http://dollarbill-ny.com/2016/10/10151/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emigoonie (talk • contribs) 13:30, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Firstly, William M is not Robert M - there is no need to add any material about William to Robert's page. Secondly, I can't see much evidence that William M is notable enough for a Wikipedia article. Thirdly, even if he is, you should not go round trying to add material that may be considered to be defamatory, about him or about anyone else. So, stop it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:17, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Dan Pickett

Could you cast your eye over my soap box... no egg box, sorry sand box, at this article. I am not sure if, in my own words, I have made things more woolly rather than easier to understand. Otherwise it seems to be fit for the mainframe. Mucho,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:31, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Looks good to me. By the way, how did we both (all?) miss this notable singer? Not only did she have a number 2 hit, she really wasn't someone easily overlooked. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:40, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Three tons indeed - good article from you - I always wondered who the three Tons of Joy were. Cheers, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Xylouris White

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A tag has been placed on Xylouris White requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a band or musician, but it does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. David.moreno72 12:48, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Just a thought

I am not in danger of getting thrice trice am I ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:01, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Only if you're an amazing Superman..... Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:07, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Stomp Gordon

Could you cast a quick look at this fledgling article in my sandbox. Is there anything in BARE that will enhance the article ? The relevant part(s) of the online version do not seem to be available to me. I have placed ???? in the page number of the reference. Ta,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:32, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Charlie "Specks" McFadden

As above again, I'm afraid to ask, as I have only limited online access to BARE. Thanks,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:54, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

"Black Patch" McFadden. Were his recordings pirated?? Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2016 (UTC) (Sorry, I seem to have acquired martinitis...)
Thanks. Funny you should mention pirates - there seems to have been a few dodgy characters about this evening - what's going on ?! - Derek R Bullamore (talk)
I'm terrified.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Monnow Bridge

Tried to Ping you from Martin Evans' page, but not sure my Pinging skills were up to the challenge. I was wondering if you'd be interested in a collaboration to try to take Monnow Bridge to FA status. The bridge certainly merits it, I think there are sufficient sources, and it would be a nice contribution to Monmouth coverage. Let me know if you are interested - Martin's up for it - and we could then agree tasks. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 19:21, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Replied on Mr Satan Vine's page. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:23, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
"lol" " Forever Fried?! - just the sort of "comment in poor taste about living person and not relevant to improving article" you might expect from me. Totes jeal, bro. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:34, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
I saw the revert and the "reverted to...", which of course I read it as "reverted by..." and with your name on it. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:56, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
What are we talking about? This? I ignored it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Don't worry, we all thought it was just a spelling error. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:10, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Odessa Harris

The more I search the more confused I get over this one (birth name/date/place). It's in my sandbox, which seems to have more than a fair share of grit therein. Does BARE make anything clearer ? Thanks again,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:07, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Although BARE says Odessa Harris, born in West Memphis - with no further explanation - I've checked records at Ancestry, and her Social Security record is in the name of Dessie Mae Williams, born in West Helena (dates: born 8 June 1936, died 18 August 2007; parents Aron Williams and May Tiggs; last residence Detroit) . That name and birthplace is precisely what is said in her obituary here, and, whether true or not, is presumably what she wanted people to believe. So, you either have to make a judgement on whether BARE is more reliable, as it usually is - or you set out both options - X says this but Y says that. My suspicion, based on the weight of evidence in other sources for West Helena, and the fact that BARE makes no mention of her death, is that this may be a case where BARE did not check details as assiduously as they did (I hope!) for more famous musicians, and in this case they may have been in error. But, that's not really much more than a hunch. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:13, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for all that - I do not feel quite so daft now. I think I'll play the option game, but actually go for the obit version (and others, with West Helena) as the 'truth', whilst mentioning BARE's alternative version. I would not have a clue whether West Memphis or West Helena is more trendy, or dire; whichever position someone might be trying to effect in claiming either of them as 'home'. You will have come across those musicians and/or promoters thereof, who claim to be born in a certain place because it might make them appear to be more 'edgy'. Can't really see that it would be an issue for this individual though. Or, are they geographically close enough, to mistake one for t'other ?!
Is Dessie maybe a simplistic abbreviation of Odessa ? In which case she probably was birth named as Odessa Mae Williams. I think I'm getting more confused now ! What always amazes me, given the multitude of cases we have come across, is how the hell do the people concerned ever deal with Government agencies and the like in the States, when they appear to have multiple names, dates of birth, birth places, whatever. Can they claim benefits three times over, or have eleven passports ??
They must be mighty skint in West Memphis - according to the picture in the Wiki article, the poor old statues there have to chisel themselves.
Just for the hell of it, I quite fancy being known as hailing from Lower Bell End. Quite taken too with the notion of having "Lovely cooked breakfasts delivered to the tent."
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:04, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't think I'd go with "Odessa Mae" - too much like WP:SYNTH, and it's quite reasonable to think that she was born "Dessie Mae" but later gentrified herself (or B B King gentrified her, apparently) by calling herself "Odessa". There's no harm in not mentioning BARE at all, especially if all the other sources say something different. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:18, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Right. Given all that has been discussed, and not a hint of original research in sight, I've gone with the reshaped draft. Now I know why these get passed over to me !?! I'm going to have a go at Dirty Red next. There is something beguiling in the dirty blues stuff for me. Nothing can go wrong there .... can it ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 00:20, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
On the same subject, I would love to find out more about the Dorothy Ellis who recorded the excellent "Drill Daddy Drill" in 1952. It's possible that she is the same Dorothy Ellis as this, but I can find absolutely no confirmation of that, anywhere. If I can find anything to link them, I'd certainly like to (ahem) give her a go. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:20, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
Is it the same woman listed at Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame ? Ellis' label, Federal Records (something of a late dirty blues specialist), released both her "Drill Daddy Drill" (1952) and "Sixty Minute Man" (1951) by The Dominoes within 12 months or so. "Drill Daddy Drill" was written by Darnell and Delagarde. Not either of these two - Larry Darnell / Mario Delagarde by any chance ?? Note that Johnny Otis was signed to Federal around this time, and he drummed on Big Mama Thornton's version of "Hound Dog". Plenty of WP:SYNTH there to mull over. Happy hunting - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
"Drill Daddy Drill" was recorded at Federal in Cincinnati and was written by Mario Delagarde and Ravon Darnell (1929-2008) - [2] - also mentioned ici. "Mario DeLagarde... was a bass player and prolific writer of songs for the Federal and other labels. He often collaborated with Ravon Darnell and Ralph Bass". They were both members of - or at least associated with - the Four Jacks, who seem to have done a lot of recording but to have left little trace otherwise (a mention here). (Not these or these, or indeed these). At least, I haven't tracked down any more info (even Unca Marvy is letting me down for once! - apart from this). I will try to keep on drilling, but not sure how long I can keep it up at my age. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
You've got that martinitis pretty bad, haven't you ! You might need The Cure. Jacks a-plenty too, so you may care to have a dance. That Shirley Haven was a right eyeful - probably have stew and dumplings for my tea. I can see you are really digging like mad on this one - mind your bad back though. Good luck - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 16:09, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
Co-writer of "The Thrill Is Gone"? May be notable? Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:21, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Red Nelson

I'm back. Much of the same, sorry, but I can't view online the full BARE gubbins for this fellow - I told you I'd have a pop at the "Muther Fuyer". Assuming BARE gives such detail, take no notice of the death date currently shown in my sandbox - purely made up by me. Rather wanted to do a separate article for "Muther Fuyer", but I can't really find sufficient info on both subjects to warrant it. Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't have much - BARE is relatively silent unless you want his parents' names. Can you squeeze a link to minced oath in there somewhere? I'll check if Tesco have any in stock. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:53, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
I did squeeze in a minced oath, and am hoping for a page in Jamie Oliver's next tome. More generally, I would welcome your thoughts as to whether this is now one article or two. I ponder over WP:UNDUE, not in the opinion(s) therein, rather the overall balance of the article. If split, I might find try to discover more on the lyrical content of the various versions of the "Mother Fuyer" song(s), although normally using lyric websites is frowned upon - actually, not sure there would be much reliable info to work upon. Ummm... Billy Boy Arnold may be in on the act too in 1979. .... As it turns out, probably not. Hell, here is Chick Willis giving it a go in 1972 (odd that the writing credit on Willis' version cites B.B. King, who does not record it himself until 1977). As before, "There are more questions than answers". - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:46, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
You need this book.....! - esp. p.135 onwards. There's also an introductory discussion here, which takes it back to Memphis Minnie... and a very poor article here, which clearly needs more work. I think the way I'd approach it would be to research a few paragraphs on the song, including the Minnie, Billy Boy Arnold, and Johnny "Guitar" Watson songs, as well as ol' Red, and see if there's enough well-sourced material for an article. Incidentally, I don't know if they are all the same song, or simply use the same title. If there is enough for an article on the song(s), the Red article can be cut back, and if there isn't, you could mention it in the Red article and also improve the mf article by adding the material from the books. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:23, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I have already incorporated parts of the Silverton and Dawson book references in the ever growing article but, like you, I am not totally sure if all the songs are variants/cover versions of the original concept, or simply using similar titles. I am certain Red Nelson, B.B. King and Chuck Willis' efforts are ostensibly one and the same, with each performer claiming the songwriting credits probably based on the differences, presumably reckoning no-one would be likely to object. These probably all do date back to Memphis Minnie's "original", with Washboard Sam and Roosevelt Sykes milking it a little. Actually, maybe not the best terminology for their 'covers'. Alternatively, Johnny "Guitar" Watson and Billy Boy Arnold's efforts seem much different, although I do not have immediate access to full lyrics, chord structures etc. Then there is the Wikipedia article on 'MF' which I agree needs some work, although it is something of a different topic.
It seems only hours ago (mainly, 'cos it was) when I stated, and I quote - "I'm going to have a go at Dirty Red next". "Nothing can go wrong there .... can it ?" Many a true word spoken in your vest. I do not know which way to turn next... it's a real "Mother Fuyer" and that's a fact !
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:26, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
I have split the article into two parts now - one for Red, the other for the song. They probably need a tweak or two before posting on the mainframe as two entities. Do these look OK now ?
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:44, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Recent developments at Garage punk page

I just noticed that Ilovetopaint just made some pretty big changes over at the garage punk page. It's not that I necessarily disagree with all of his points (you've no doubt heard me express some of them in the past), it's just that I have come to recognize and accept that there is a nomenclature of how genres are defined at Wikipedia. The problem with his latest changes is that, now the garage punk genre is no longer treated as its own genre, but essentially as garage rock (though it does still say "subgenre" the distinction is lost--and if we can't make a distinction, then why have a separate article)? He will claim that the majority of sources define "garage punk" as 60s garage rock--well perhaps. But, the article was previously written reflecting the sources that treated it as its own genre, albeit as a subgenre of garage rock, but modern [3]. And, some of the points he just inserted are particularly confusing. He tends to spotlight too much on certain isolated sources and almost parrots them. He doesn't understand that in genre articles and general topic articles we have to take more into account than that. So, what should we we do? Garagepunk66 (talk) 05:20, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

It's difficult to dissent from Ilovetopaint's comments on the article talk page. And, I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in Americans agonising over genre boundaries (no-one else does). If you want to pursue this, do so on the article talk page and see if people agree with you. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:09, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't see where the confusion is. Whatever sources that talk about garage punk go on the garage punk article. This is how I've handled it at Art rock (synonymous with Progressive rock) and Acid rock (synonymous with Psychedelic rock). It doesn't really matter how much overlap there is, as long as the source isn't explicitly discussing the other topic. If there is a question over the difference between "garage punk" and "garage rock", this is the only we can answer it without injecting OR.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 12:13, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Best to continue this discussion at the article talk page, rather than here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:18, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree. But, can we please keep nationality out of it? Thanks, Garagepunk66 (talk) 23:19, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

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Eddie Kirkland

Have you come across this name in your searches ? Indeed, does BARE cover him in any detail ? It's just that the birth details seem a little hazy in his article. Thanks,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 00:18, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Very uncertain. BARE lists his birth at Dothan, Alabama, but adds in parentheses "[or Jamaica...]". They have him down as born in 1928, which accords with Allmusic, but not with most other sources or his obits, which give 1923. So, the article could probably do with a little tweak to set out the uncertainty. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:44, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Thank you and done - I think ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:03, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Peak of popularity section at GR article

I remember you once said that you thought the Peak of popularity in the Garage rock article section was weak and needed help. I was just wondering if you could do an improvement there, while I'm attending to a lot of the other issues in the article. Ilovetopaint is keeping me real busy these days! But, hopefully it will all be for the best. I know that you're busy, but could you help with that section? Garagepunk66 (talk) 09:52, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

I'll have a look at it at some point, but not immediately - I'm busy doing other things and will be away for a few days. No rush. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:55, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
I understand. I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with of all of ILTP's comments there. But, I have no doubt that when you get the time, you'll make the section look much better. Garagepunk66 (talk) 16:49, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
I tidied up some things in the Peak of popularity section. I tried to take what was in there and give it a more coherent framework. I removed some details that are mentioned elsewhere in the article. If you see anything that could be improved there, go right ahead... Garagepunk66 (talk) 07:44, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Ted Bogan

Anything from BARE not in the draft in my soapbox ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:53, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Only his full name - now added. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Elzadie Robinson

Not much to go on with this old gal, but I think BARE may contradict at least part of what little I have garnered for her. Could you oblige me again ? Ta,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes indeed - confusion reigns! BARE has her born in 1897 (or, according to a footnote, possibly 1900), in Logansport, Louisiana, and dying in 1975 (not 1988) in Flint, Michigan. Rather than me typing out all the printed details, do you want to do some more work on it first, then I can come back and edit it? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:47, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Yes, and thank you - I'll add what I can and leave the referencing bit / corrections to you. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:34, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Probably got as far as I can. What do you reckon : El-za-die or El-zadie ? Either way, it will need a little spit and polish, so over to you ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:18, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Duly scrubbed up, a little. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:51, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Boyd Gilmore

Anything from BARE to add to my effort ? Thanks again, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Nothing at all - good job! Stefan Wirz generally gets his biographical information from BARE, so it's orl korrect. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:41, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
The article is ready to go, but just an aside, do you know anything about a possible familial relationship between Elmore James (1918-1963) and Gilmore (1905-1976). Two existing Wiki articles - James Crutchfield and Bobby Rush - both allude to James and Gilmore 'working' together in their youth, and that Gilmore was James cousin (or the other way round). It is pure OR in my part because neither article, nor anything else I have come across in the last day or so, supplies much of a mention, or more importantly a decent reliable reference for any of this. But is it purely coincidental that James' guitar work was "sampled" into Gilmore's single release ?
As if those hip-hop idiots think sampling is anything new. Bloody rapping itself is well over 30 years old - yoh.
Oh yeah, plus Stefan's work continues to amaze me. Night, night. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 01:10, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, there are plenty of suggestions that Gilmore may have been Elmore James' cousin - here, here, here, here, etc. - but nothing more definitive, and of course the word "cousin" can be interpreted loosely to mean anyone believed to be related somehow, however distantly. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts. I think, taking all into all, I'll leave any mention of 'cousin' out of the article. As you say, it is all a bit suggestive rather than definitive. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
You could always stick in a "reportedly...", with a citation. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:03, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Yeah I could, but I didn't. I'll let others have a go if they so wish. There are bound to be sub-editors lined up in their thousands, waiting for a chance to pounce. Tee hee.
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:49, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Mozelle Alderson

The latest on the conveyor belt, but once again I am stuck without BARE. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:49, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I've added some details - she is one of those random cases where BARE seems to know more than anyone else. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:25, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Cor, ta. Now as if you have not had enough, does BARE cover any of the following: Doug Quattlebaum, Leroy Dallas, Country Jim (Jim Bledsoe, so named because he was a right little bleeder?), L.C. Green, Sylvester Cotton or Slim Pickens (Clyde Wilson 1910-1990, ie. not this Slim Pickens) ?? The reason I ask is because they are all mentioned on The Post War Blues and have modest AllMusic biographies. BARE might make the difference in establishing credentials and notability (ahem). No rush on these - frankly, I have enough on right now ! Muchos,
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
According to the book's index (which is not necessarily a reliable guide to the book's contents!!): Quattlebaum, yes; Dallas, yes; Bledsoe, no; Green, yes; Cotton, no; Pickens, no. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:31, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Cheers. In that case, I have added the three 'yes' cases to my 'reds or blues' section. I will research those further in due course. Thanks, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 11:29, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
On a similar note, is Dusty Brown listed in BARE ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:34, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
'Fraid not. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Willie Trice

Could you give this a quick look, BARE-wise or otherwise. I intend to do Richard Trice's article alongside Willie's draft, as there is bound to be some duplication or cross-pollination, before I go 'live' with either. Just making sure really that I'm not missing something vital, before I progress. Sandshoe,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:19, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

OK, done! Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Big Boy Henry

As before, if you would be so kind. Thanks - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:16, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

OK, done. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

James "Thunderbird" Davis

As above, pretty please - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Done.... but I don't have an explanation of when or why "Huston" [sic] became "Davis". Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:34, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. I was not sure if it was Huston or Houston, as different sources gave different spellings - now there's a novelty ! Plus, I found a wikilink of sorts for Thunderbird. Never having touched any of that alcoholic stuff, of course, I did not know (ahem). Ever onwards, ever upwards.
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:20, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Indeed! Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:23, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

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Henry "Rufe" Johnson

As above, as before, as ever in your debt. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Nothing further to add, m'lud. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:10, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Richard Ray Farrell

I do not think I have asked you about this blues musician. Whether he is in BARE I somewhat doubt, but can you add anything eg. to his present birth details ? Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:00, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

No, he's not in BARE. He seems to have had his 60th birthday party on January 25, 2016 - but, that's not enough to justify saying anything other than just 1956, in my view (per WP:BLPPRIVACY and all that). Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:23, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for comments

I was meaning to get back to you and say that I appreciate the thoughtful comments you have made at the garage rock article talk page. I am particularly thankful that you pointed out your objection to all of the tag-bombing, etc. I have taken to heart the things you said about the need to reduce extraneous material, particularly in the Regions sections, and I'm trying to make good on your advise. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

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BARE

Have I asked you before about either Daisy Martin or Alice Leslie Carter ? Both articles are rather hazy re birth/death. Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Nope, nothing in BARE about either of them. You wouldn't be wanting me to do any research, would you?? Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
No, no, no, no, yes. Not really, I just thought it was worth an ask. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:20, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
There was an Alice Carter, born 1894 in Boston, single, the daughter of Herbert Leslie Carter. She sailed to Europe in 1920 for France, Italy, Switzerland, Belgium and England with a company called Temple Tours. Occupation: "none". It could be her, but, again, perhaps not. She appears from her passport photo to be white/Caucasian, by the way. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:43, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Ummm... Well she probably did tour in Europe and these images suggest she may have been white. Fairly unusual for a blues singer of that vintage though. Of course, it is all a bit OR, and I would have thought that a white singer might have received more coverage, BARE for one, than is clearly the case. Perhaps Messrs. Eagle and LeBlanc were left as puzzled as we seemingly are. There is the question of the 'other' Alice Carter, to muddy the waters - that would be a good name, wouldn't it ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 16:28, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Re the photo, see below.... There were white singers who recorded "blues" in the 1920s, like Marion Harris - whether that's true of Alice, I don't know. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:25, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

"Long Tall Mama"

Am I going mad here ? Well obviously we are all slowly doing so here but, was "Long Tall Mama" composed by Big Bill Broonzy; Arlette May who I have sussed out was really Billy May in a dress, plus Two Little Brown Jugs presumably; or recent recruit to my ranks, Bernice Edwards; and/or is it the same song claimed as "Long Tall Mama Blues" seemingly penned by The Singing Brakeman; or are they all different. When was it composed ? It is a perpetual wonder to me that any songwriter got paid the correct royalties back in those days.

Anyhow, here is Moanin' Bernice in 1928 tinkling those ivories in fine fettle, but looking like a man. Perhaps that's why she was moanin'. You don't half give me some stuff !!

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:19, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

The photos that come up with YouTube links are often not of the musicians themselves - they're just random photos that the uploader thinks would enhance the listening experience (?!) - in this case photos of various long tall papas, I assume. See also my response above.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
The Broonzy lyrics here don't look to me like Rodgers' lyrics here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:33, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Anyhoo, Bernice Edwards is almost ready to go, but I assume she is listed in BARE, which may have something I have missed (not that there is an awful lot to start with). - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:05, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Been there, done that.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:07, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

There'll Be Some Changes Made

Thanks for your help. Given your edit/contribution interests, would you be open to contacting me (to coordinate on some areas) thru my username email? — Eurodog (talk) 14:38, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I'd prefer to do any coordinating openly here, rather than via email. I suspect that our interests may overlap only in small areas, and also that our approaches towards editing are somewhat different. But, I'm always happy to help if I can. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:58, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Other problem at Acid rock article

In addition to merge split discussion at Acid rock article, there have been some interesting changes there as of late. I commented on that and went in and made some corrections there. Garagepunk66 (talk) 04:29, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

J. T. Smith

Another one for you and the BARE magic. I think half of his story is more hear'say than hard fact, but the article is well referenced, so what can I do. Thank you,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:38, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure I have anything to add. What BARE says for his death is "after 1947", on the basis of a "personal interview" in 1972 with Willie "Little Brother" Lane (1897-1976) - who apparently worked with Smith and seems to be at least as obscure .... Of course, there were plenty of people called John T. Smith who died in Texas in 1940, so Ancestry.com isn't much use. So, you could perhaps qualify the death date... or leave it as it is, and simply ignore BARE on this occasion. Up to you. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I did what I did, and thanks for your addition, I had momentarily forgotten about the page number. "Momentarily forgotten" seems to cover most things, when you pass into your 63rd year. Vaguely interesting is this "North Texas bluesman Willie Lane recorded six sides ("Up and Down Building K.C. Line," "Prowlin' Ground Hog," "Too Many Women Blues," "Howling Wolfe Blues," and two takes of "Black Cat Rag") for Dallas-based Talent Records between 1934 and 1949. He may have been the same Willie Lane who also recorded a track for the Library of Congress in 1934, but the evidence is uncertain. He was born in 1897, probably in San Antonio, and lived from 1910 until his death in 1976 in the Fort Worth, TX, area. It was thought for a time that he was the second guitarist on recordings fellow Texan Funny Paper Smith did in 1935, but Lane claimed in an interview before his death that although he met Smith, and learned a couple of guitar chords from him, he never recorded with him.", which comes from AllMusic. Stefan posts Willie Lane as supplying guitar accompaniment to seven of Smith's unreleased Fort Worth recordings on April 22, 1935. From the same ultra reliable source, Lane did cover Smith's "Howling Wolf(e) Blues" in 1949 for a single release by Talent (Star Talent 806).
All that excitement aside, does BARE mention Thomas Shaw ? I will have a dig around, as his present Wiki article looks a little sparse. Salute (from Latin, of the same language, miserably failed O-level on my part),
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Yes, Thomas Shaw is mentioned in BARE, but only to give the birth, death and name details that are already in the article. It says a little bit more about Willie Lane -He met J.T. "Funny Papa" Smith at Fort Worth (after "Howling Wolf Blues" had been released), and learned some chords from Smith. In 1949, Willie recorded for Star Talent/Talent, including "Prowlin' Ground Hog", "Too Many Women", "Howling Wolfe" (sic), and "Black Cat Rag". Any help? By the way, I assume that Chester Burnett got his "moniker" (as USAians like to call it) before Smith's recording - it must have been a well-known term in those parts. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Not really sure there is enough for an article for the largely non-notable Willie Lane - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:52, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Isaac Scott

Once more, as before. Regards - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:52, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

It looks to me like Allmusic has his birthplace wrong. BARE says Vancouver, Washington, as does this, which seems to be based on an interview with him. I would go with that, personally - info at Ancestry.com re his social security application seems to confirm it. Not much else - I'll tweak his birth name. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:55, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

E.G. Kight

I may have asked you this before, but does Kight appear in BARE ? A recent IP led edit had her some eleven years older than the date cited in the article (by at least two sources). Ta,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

She's not in BARE. My Ancestry.com subscription gives plenty of evidence that Eugenia G Kight of Dublin, Georgia, was born on 17 January 1955. Of course, it could be someone else entirely (??), and the sources it uses, though apparently public records such as voter lists, aren't readily available online. So, discretion is advised... or, you could be heading into a Laura Branigan scenario. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:35, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
I am not much fussed either way, but at least the two references in the article cite 1966. Until someone comes up with something a bit more definitive, I'll stick with that. Unusual for someone to try to lop off eleven years ! Andy Kim springs to mind, as well as Lynsey de Paul, but both did not come close to this seeming disparity. By the way, I'm seventeen.
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:51, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Bob Stroger

A similar question to that above. The cited reference (not the most reliable it must be said, and Discogs follows the same route) 'confirms' 1930, but a recent IP edit stated 1939 (without any reference being given). Thanks,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:12, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, he's in BARE - Dec. 27, 1930. I've added it as a reference but take it out if you think it's overkill. The other edit was probably just vandalism. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:56, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes, that's fine as it is. I agree with your vandalism statement - nothing new under the sun. Thanks again, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:15, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Direction Records (Bobby Darin's label)

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A tag has been placed on Direction Records (Bobby Darin's label) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

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@Sir Joseph and Steelbeard1: - This should be directed towards Steelbeard1, not me. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:42, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Jimmie Gordon

As before. He is the first of those I "found" (after you had pointed them out) from the German Wikipedia. Nothing much changes otherwise - I am hoping BARE may help a little over birth/ death. Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

No, BARE doesn't have a listing for him - I assume because they had no information on him. (Like many things in BARE, the reasons for omitting him are not explained.) It also seems, as I'm sure you've noticed, that no-one really seems to have discussed him in any detail on any forums or blogs - which is odd, for someone who was clearly fairly popular in the 30s and 40s, even if he seems not to be held in especially high regard now. I wonder if StefanWirz has any information? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:05, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
OK. I have taken up your suggestion and dropped Stefan a line. If he can not turn up anything, then I will simply go with what I've got. Cheers,
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:33, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
I sent it "live" on 23 December. Fair game for anyone now, I suppose. I hope life continues to treat you well. Bestest westest y'all. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 02:07, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Happy Saturnalia!

Happy Saturnalia
Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and troll-free. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

All the best for 2017!

Hello Ghmyrtle,
Enjoy the Winter Solstice and the Christmas and holiday season.
Thank you for all your good work during 2016 in maintaining, improving and expanding Wikipedia.
All the best for 2017! Cheers, — Gareth Griffith-Jones | The Welsh | Buzzard |  16:31, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

List of reggae compilation albums

I just created a List of reggae compilation albums, but it is anywhere from complete. I'd be so happy if there is anything you or anyone can do to expand, enhance, or improve it. Thanks, Garagepunk66 (talk) 03:49, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 22 December 2016

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Latest news

So it's George Michael's Last Christmas, and dear Rick Parfitt's no longer Rockin' All Over the World. Lyn Cornell finally makes a belated appearance here, before she, or I, join the heavenly throng. On that cheery note, Happy Chrimble !

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:44, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Buddy Boy Hawkins

As before, when you can find the time. Although I assume any details BARE may have, will not include birth/death details. Regards,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:57, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, nothing at all, in BARE or anywhere else that I can see. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:38, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

stroud audio history

I have re-instated the section on audio history with the revision of removing the reference to the author. It is not central to the purpose of the entry even though the website is far from commercial and seeks only to provide information on a very limited genre for the benefit of aficionados, links therein are sometimes to commercial ventures though most are far from commercial.

The links to the audio history website will still be there. The website is also non-commercial (quite the opposite, it costs the author), being an audible social history, placed there for posterity, and research. Copies of which go to the Stratford Park Museum and Gloucestershire Archive. I trust this falls within the remit of Wikipedia - certainly the ethos thereof. It is impossible to alert those interested in the audio history of Stroud without reference to a website.

Mr Red — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herr Rott (talk • contribs) 12:28, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

This material should not be included in the article text, per WP:ELPOINTS. However, I've added the site as an external link. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:17, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

David Meltzer

I'm getting posts on Facebook from friends that Meltzer of Serpent Power has died, but nothing on searches. Do you get obituaries faster where you are? All of the people I saw that posted it are from Europe so I was just wondering. Any help is appreciated.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:46, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes - there are plenty of posts on Twitter and Facebook that that is the case, but nothing yet that I would call a reliable source. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
@TheGracefulSlick:I've seen it on posts and personal communications as of late 30 December and again today, that David has passed, but none seem to confirm the date of death. I just searched once more and came up with no reliable source. The Poetry Foundation website mentions he has passed, but does not give a date certain. Activist (talk) 05:21, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Thank you Ghmyrtle and Activist, I'll keep checking each day for a source. It was more for my own personal knowledge because I enjoy his work with Serpent Power. It's a shame but at least he lived a long life.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 05:43, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
I may have jumped the gun slightly, but all the postings I saw yesterday referred to his death "early this morning", i.e. 31 December. If the date is out by a day, it can be corrected. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:19, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
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