Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 December 6

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December 6

Polish Translation

Could anyone please tell me what 'Aby się załogować wpisz poniżej otrzymany kod sms i kliknij na sprawdz' means in english? Thanks! 74.102.47.179 01:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

It literaly means 'In order to log in enter below the sms given code and click on check'. Spranykot 01:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Spranykot

greek language

How do you speak in greek and write in it?

On the assumption that you mean modern Greek, either be born into a Greek family, or learn to speak and write the language as an adult. Am I missing something here? Clio the Muse 01:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

HOW do you speak and write in greek?? Using Greek words and letters? I think we are missing something. ;) Vespine 04:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Very carefully. —Keenan Pepper 23:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

όπως αυτό — Gogobera 02:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC) (Sorry, that's actually a terrible babelfishing. I'm almost entirely sure it's nonsensical in Greek. Hopefully some funny survived the 'translation.')

Abiento

What does the word abiento mean? What language? LEsB

It's a 2-word French expression: à bientôt, meaning goodbye (more or less). JackofOz 01:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Abiento also means December in Aragonese. (Not to be confused with Aragornese). Here's a link to the Aragonese Wikipedia's stubby-stub-stub article on Abiento. Compare with avientu in Asturian, abendu in Basque (both meaning December), or with adviento in Castilian Spanish meaning Advent.

God rest ye merry gentlemen

Is the proper punctuation "God rest ye, merry gentlemen" or "God rest ye merry, gentlemen"? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen has some answers. --Kjoonlee 05:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was the other way. I'm so dismayed. Clarityfiend 17:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

So it means "May God keep you strong, gentlemen".--Shantavira 18:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. And Clarity, maybe you've gone astray... Skittle 00:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Kjoon, why didn't I even think to look it up here? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Only you, in your infinite wisdom, know the answer to that.  :) JackofOz 03:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "J"

In which languages is "J" pronunced as "Y"? Also, how is "Trojan" pronunced? —Masatran 04:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

On the first question, see J. (In IPA, the pronunciation as "Y" is written /j/.) "Trojan" is pronounced in English with the usual English J sound. --Anonymous, 05:35 UTC, December 6.

In English, referring to the ancient city of Troy, it's "trow-jan", where by "j" I mean the initial sound of "jam". (Of course, since it's all one word, the "j" is not as pronounced/emphatic as in "toe-jam", say, so maybe a better reference is the sound represented by "g" in "magical".)

In answer to your other question, many Slavic languages with alphabets derived from the Latin alphabet use the letter "J" to represent the palatal approximant, which in English is written as "Y" (for example, Slovenian or Czech); some languages whose alphabets are derived from the Cyrillic alphabet add a letter similar to "J" to represent the same sound -- for example, Serbian (in both Latin and Cyrillic scripts) or Macedonian (derived from Serbian). See Je (Cyrillic). Tesseran 05:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

<J> is pronounced /j/ (i.e. what I think Masatran means by 'Y') in the vast majority of languages that use it. The exceptions are European languages from French westward (French, Spanish, Portuguese, English - not sure about the other languages of France and Spain) and languages whose orthography has been influenced by one of these. --ColinFine 00:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In Latin, J is pronounced as Y, as in jūs. See Latin spelling and pronunciation if you are interested! Goyston 03:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Did I?

On the banks of the river I can look down from my house, did I make a small garden.

is this grammatically correct? if incorrect, why? --70.187.163.141 06:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it depends.

• I did not build a garden near my house. On the banks of the river I can look down from my house, did I make a small garden.

This chould be a case of subject-auxiliary inversion (IIRC) for emphasis. --Kjoonlee 07:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Compare

• On no account will I build a garden near my house.

In this case it's a negative which drives the inversion. --Kjoonlee 07:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this gibberish - grammar aside. Do you mean "From my house I can look down on the banks of the river.." If so then yes it's incorrect. Note: It's impossible to look down on anything at the river bank except the river since the river occupies the lowest ground. ", did I make a small garden" should be "Did I make a small garden ?" use a new sentence - (unless this is some form of poetry)

No way is this grammatically correct.83.100.138.168 10:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Kjoonlee what are you on about? Is this poetry by any chance? I'm sure if you read or spoke it it would make sense - but for written language clarity is important..83.100.138.168 10:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Also "On the banks of the river I can look down on from my house." ?83.100.138.168 11:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• I did not build a garden near my house. On the banks of the river, which I can see clearly from my house, did I make a small garden.

How does this version sound? --Kjoonlee 12:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This version is easier to understand (why no question mark?). I'm not sure that understandability is the issue here.83.100.138.168 12:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Judging from the title of the question, the question is probably about Subject-Auxiliary Inversion (SAI); you used SAI too, in "No way is this grammatically correct." You didn't say, "No way this is grammatically correct." --Kjoonlee 12:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I haven't got a clue from the title what the question is about. But clearly "I did.."is a statement and "Did I.." would be a question. Whereas there is very little difference in meaning between "No way is this grammatically correct." and "No way this is grammatically correct." (would be different if I'd left out the 'no way' part)- both are ways of saying "I don't think this is grammatically correct". Perhaps grammar is the wrong term here.83.100.138.168 12:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree. "No way this is grammatically correct" would be an ungrammatical sentence which should be corrected to "[There is] no way this can be grammatically correct," or "[There is] no way this could be grammatically correct." --Kjoonlee 16:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Disagree with what? 87.102.6.143 17:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

*sigh* Never mind. Never will I feel the same when replying to anonymous posters. --Kjoonlee 17:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The original sentence is not only grammatically incorrect, but ambiguous. Unless we know what you're trying to say it's impossible to correct it. Is it a question? If so, it would read better if it began "Did I" to warn to reader that it is a question. This would be unusual, as you usually know what you did and don't need to ask. Otherwise I would render it as: "From my house I can look down on the riverbank, where I made a small garden." But I don't know if that is what is meant.--Shantavira 12:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Only when people understood me did I feel comfortable. *sigh* --Kjoonlee 12:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If the issue is really one of grammar then it would be better if the original poster could come back and tell us what they meant to say..83.100.138.168 12:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually I recognise this - Geordies talk crap like this83.100.138.168 13:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know only people in that part of the world talk like this (the first sentence) - and as far as I can tell the meaning is to point out a garden on the banks of a river...83.100.138.168 13:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The answer is no,"On the banks of the river, which I can look down on from my house, did I make a small garden?" would be better. Why is the original incorrect - it makes no sense, that's why.83.100.138.168 13:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the point. After SAI, the sentence structure sort of looks like an interrogative one, but it actually isn't. It's a statement, not a question. "Never will I do that again." This is a statement, as is "Only there did I make a small garden." --Kjoonlee 16:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What point am I missing - the sentence makes no sense - there is no before and after 'SAI'; only one sentence was provided.87.102.6.143 17:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

1. I will never do that again.
2. Never will I do that again.

This is SAI. The original poster might have been asking whether "will I" would be grammatical in the second sentence I've just mentioned. --Kjoonlee 17:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This is all very well but "did I make a small garden" is a question (possibly rhetorical). "I did make a garden" or better "I made a garden" or "I have made a garden" is a statement. The poster didn't ask whether "will I" would be grammatical at all. Why not re-read the original question - and you will see why I am confused as to why you think "SAI" is relevant here.87.102.6.143 18:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Never do you understand what I say, but I think I'll try again. "Will" is an auxiliary verb. "I" is the subject of most of the example sentences in this section. Surprise surprise, sometimes they can be inverted. Same with "do" which can also be an auxiliary verb and "I". If they switch orders then it's SAI. Did you notice how this section is titled "Did I?" --Kjoonlee 18:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"Only there did I make a small garden" is still a statement. You might say the original poster didn't use a strong enough qualifying phrase to start the sentence, but I don't think that's what he/she was asking. --Kjoonlee 18:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you're trying to turn english into some sort of galactic basic as spoken by yoda (joke). Reading the original sentence though you will notice that it reads ",did I make" not "only there did I make". I agree that with suitable modification "did I" can be a statement - but that's not in the original sentence.87.102.6.143 18:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, now you have realized why the original sentence was "nonsense"; because it didn't start with an adequate phrase. Now, what's adequate can differ from person to person, which is why I said that it depends. --Kjoonlee 18:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

But it should be 'look down along from my house' or 'look down on from my house' (the river), it even could be 'look down to my house'. Not 'on the banks of .. I can look down from my house' because that suggests that he is on the river and in his house at the same time.87.102.6.143 19:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If by 'garden' you mean that you urinated into the river, well, you made a wonderful garden indeed. Theavatar3 18:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, the original poster is here.

On the banks of the river I can look down from my house, did I make a small garden. When I moved here in September last year, there were some greens left, but autumn was before long. With a small river in between, I was in the city, leaving my eyes and soul in the low mountains, the river and the desolate fields after harvests.

this is a sentence that one of my students wrote in class. we've had several disputes on the correctness of the first part but no real solution yet. --70.187.163.141 22:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My two cents: I can parse it so that it's grammatically correct, if awkward. You can "look down a river", so the river I can look down from my house is a grammatical noun phrase. On the banks of that river, did he or she make a small garden. —Keenan Pepper 23:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Following Keenan Pepper, we could interpret the sentence as "From my house, I can look down the River Tesseran. On its banks did I make a small garden." (inversion, "look down" = "look along") And by changing only one word ("I can" to "I could"), we get a conditional sentence: "On the banks of the river I could look down from my house, did I make a small garden." ("My house is on the banks of the river, and I could look down from my window, if only I made a small garden. I should probably make a garden." or alternately "I could look down on the banks of the river from my window, if only etc.") I don't believe that this use of "did I" for "if I did" is ever used today, though, and the sentence you get is completely meaningless. What's certain is that the first two sentences are incomprehensible, and the third is incomprehensible too if it isn't poetry. Is this student a native speaker of English? Tesseran 02:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That was my question too. "Autumn was before long" is not a phrase I've ever heard a native English speaker speak; and if they did, I'd raise an eyebrow or two. "With a small river in between, I was in the city ..". Between what? This is not good English. Since there's been such discussion of "did I make a small garden" and little consensus as to even whether it's a statement or a question, it's clear the meaning (whatever it is) has not been successfully transmitted. On that basis alone, I would fail it. The question of whether it's grammatically correct is academic, but essentially irrelevant. JackofOz 03:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

it's not a native speaker. It was a SAT writting class that I teach and some students brought an awkward essay, (that was written by a foreigner) and asked about the certain problem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.187.163.141 (talk) 04:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

If it's meant to be prose, the technical question of the grammar is irrelevant. It is in no way idiomatic english, and therefore surely wrong. If it is poetry, I suppose it may work within the body of a larger work. juleswatt

Origin of the name Cabragh? Do you think it is a corruption of Gabragh?

I have been writing an article on Cabragh House in Nelson, New Zealand.

{{helpme}} Can anyone help me with the origin of the name Cabragh? Do you think it is a corruption of Gabragh?

W. Frank 10:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

According to here, it is an Irish name meaning "rough or bad land." BTW, please only use the {{helpme}} tag when you need immediate help (of the I-can't-wait) type. I have no idea of the name's relation to Gabragh. SWAdair 10:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I had already included the http://www.geographyinaction.co.uk/Townlands/pnamesmeaning.html reference in the external links of my Cabragh House article but I wondered if anyone could think of any reasons why a house in New Zealand could be called by that name - all the other references are to egypt... W. Frank 11:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

How would you translate this from Polish to English?

How would you translate this from Polish to English:

Ministerstwo Pracy i Polityki Społecznej; Ministerstwo Budownictwa .

????? Thank you very much. YXYX 13:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"Ministry of labor and social politics (policy); ministry of construction" hope this is right I used http://www.poltran.com/pl.php4 83.100.138.168 13:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If it's relevant the UK equivalents probably include:

Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) Department for Education and Skills (DfES) Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) Home Office (HO) Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) 83.100.138.168 13:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much,this is excatly what I needed YXYX 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"scrubs" meaning operating theater dress.

The word "scrubs" is not normally used in the "theater apparel" sense in South African English. "Theater clothes", "theater dress" would be the normal terms. If one asked for "scrubs" one would likely have a nurse off searching for a nailbrush. What about Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, India et al. What do the locals say? -- Seejyb 19:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It's the standard term in all the dialects of English I'm familiar with. --Diderot 22:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify your question, "theater" refers to operating theatre, correct? In the U.S. that's called an operating room or O.R. "Theater apparel" would maybe refer to costumes. -THB 22:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Or a tuxedo and evening dress. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Operating theater wear, as per question heading. I'll get back on this, since I wish to add to the Scrubs (clothing) article, specifically regarding the technical and scientific aspects. The word "Scrubs" is not much used in technical medical literature, and where it is, it refers mostly to hand cleaning solutions, not to clothing. I was wondering if this was then simply informal use, and whether it was regional. Some quick telephonic WP:OR locally showed that local operating theater suites do not use the word "scrubs" in their documentation (ordering, interdepartmental communications) referring to clothing, and that the matrons concerned do not consider it normal use among personnel here (6 out of 6). My problem is that one cannot get an idea of how the word is used by reviewing the medical literature, and would have to get information from every country/area involved - which may end up as WP:OR. As an illustration of the dilemma, what does one make of the following (from an informal UK report on a meeting)? "...the members expressed their concern about the incidence of cross infection, and suggested that the use of scrubs should be looked into." There are no further clues as to whether this is hand wash or clothing that should be "looked into", but if the British do not generally use "scrubs" for OR wear, then an informed guess would be possible. Possibly some e-mails to various hospitals in the world would yield the necessary not-original research. --Seejyb 09:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Forms of Poetry

Does anyone know good, sophisticated poems for any of the following forms of poetry?

ballad, sonnets: italian (petrarchan) and English ( shakespearean), couplet stanzas, quatrain stanzas, blank verse, free verse, haiku, form poem?

or if not, does anyone know really good websites to find these kinds of poems and others.

Thanks!

-Anonymous

Wikisource has lots of poetry, but less so of the modern (copyrighted) kind.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 22:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks, anyone else?

Project Gutenburg is also good for free, out of copyright, poetry, but it's probably less searchable than Wikisource. It has more stuff, but I think it's arranged according to book. Skittle 00:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, shockingly, I generally find that if you search Wikipedia for these forms (ie, Sonnet), the articles tend to include typical examples and names of poets who used the forms, and sometimes names of specific poems that aren't included. Skittle 00:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm also confused by your mentioning 'form poem'. Do you mean 'Shape poem', or do you mean 'open/closed form poem', or something else? Or have I misunderstood that sentence? Anyway, last time I looked ballad, sonnet, couplet, quatrain, blank verse, free verse and haiku were pretty good resources for this. Skittle 00:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks guys, all of you! by form poem i meant a poem where the words are written in the form of a shape or something like that. like if the poem was about a teacup then it would be written in the shape of a teacup. does anyone else know specific poems that fit any of the types above?

The Catcher in the rye

Does anyone know the prominant themes or life lessons in The catcher in the rye? Or things learned by holden? Thanks alot.

Have you looked at the articles on The Catcher in the Rye, Holden Caufield, and J. D. Salinger? Anchoress 22:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been so long since I've read it, but if I recall correctly, it was about a student who searches out a huge repository of knowledge that was searchable by keywords and could be used to thwart any attepmt at forcing that student to do actual work, only to mistakenly wander into a forum concerning language where many off-topic and/or homework related questions are often answered with "look it up." and "Please, before asking, attempt fifteen seconds worth of internet-based research." Astoundingly, when that student does ask such a question in that forum, the second answer recieved was a self-referential comment that really didn't help at all! At this point, the student concludes that everyone in the forum was a phoney. But I've totally glossed over the motif of "hands," and the eyes staring down from the billboard.

Also, just a pet pieve: "a lot" not "alot." — vijay (Talk) 22:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC) P.S. I'd follow the links Anchoress posted, myself.

Haha, I know how to spell a - lot, I just didn't have time, I laughed pretty hard when I read that and I just need a good theme to write an essay on. I really understand the book I just don't know what a good theme is.

It's "peeve", btw. (lol) JackofOz 03:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

From the Holden Caufield article: One of Caulfield's most striking and quintessential qualities is his powerful revulsion for "phony" human qualities. Qualities such as narcissism, hypocrisy, and superficiality embody Holden's concept of phoniness; and, unfortunately, Holden is adept at realizing these qualities in other people. This serves to bolster Holden's cynicism and consequently contributes to his mistrust of other people. Interestingly, despite Holden's strong disdain for phony qualities, he exhibits some of the qualities that he abhors thereby making him a somewhat tragic character.

There are several themes right there. -THB 02:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)