Language desk
< May 2	<< Apr \| May \| Jun >>	May 4 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 3

French question.

How do you say, "There's a new bird of prey in the sky" in French? Thanks in advance. --190.19.75.190 (talk) 02:21, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Il y a un nouveau rapace dans le ciel. Angr (talk) 05:54, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Yog-Sothoth"

Why is the polyhedron normally known as the small retrosnub icosicosidodecahedron sometimes called the "yog-sothoth"? Double sharp (talk) 06:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably, it reminded some wag of a manifestation of the "cosmic geometry unknown to earth or the solar system" that H. P. Lovecraft was wont to refer to in his stories. (See Yog-Sothoth.) There is a certain amount of overlap between the classes of math nerds and Lovecraft fans. Deor (talk) 08:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That wag seems to be George Olshevsky. He also seems to have named the other nonconvex snub polyhedra after some other Great Old Ones. Double sharp (talk) 08:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The other correspondences by Olshevsky are:

Snub dodecadodecahedron → Chaugnar faugn

Great snub icosidodecahedron → Tsathoggua

Small snub icosicosidodecahedron → Hastur

Inverted snub dodecadodecahedron → Nyarlathotep

Great inverted snub icosidodecahedron → Cthulhu

Snub icosidodecadodecahedron → Dagon

Great snub dodecicosidodecahedron → Shub-Niggurath

Great retrosnub icosidodecahedron → Azathoth

Small retrosnub icosicosidodecahedron → Yog-Sothoth

Only "Yog-Sothoth" has caught on. Is there any rationale behind the rest? Double sharp (talk) 08:58, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All I can say is, they're way more easily memorised than the official names, which may have technical accuracy and pedantry going for them but precious little else. Basically, any alternative names would be preferable. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 09:14, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jonathan Bowers' acronyms are a significant contender for alternative names, where only the most important letters are kept from the official names to form a nonsense word. For example, the "Small retrosnub icosicosidodecahedron" becomes "Sirsid". I wonder why they seem to have displaced Olshevsky's Lovecraft names, except for yog-sothoth for sirsid. Double sharp (talk) 10:00, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For forming neologisms, science seems to have largely switched from using Greco-Latin compounds to using initialisms and acronyms in the decades after WW2. Polyhedra seem to have acquired their formal names just a bit too soon. jnestorius^(talk) 13:41, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For naming genes, many scientists come up with ridiculous semi-random phrases. Earlier, there was some attempt at semi-acronymicity ("Hox" from "Homeobox" etc.), but in more recent years things like "Mothers against decapentaplegic" seem to have become more common. No Lovecraft-mythos named genes that I'm aware of... AnonMoos (talk) 01:09, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not aware of any Lovecraft-mythos named genes, but is Pimoa cthulhu close enough for you? Double sharp (talk) 06:06, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think maybe Sonic hedgehog was the beginning of the whimsical trend. Looie496 (talk) 03:35, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If Kepler (who I think gave the Platonic solids their common names) had used the ancient elements rather than numbers, we'd have something like pyromorph, aeromorph, geomorph, hydromorph, cosmomorph, with fewer syllables. —Tamfang (talk) 03:18, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did you originate that use on hddb? Since they're using xylo- for F_n, are there any special prefixes made up for D_n and E_n polytopes? Double sharp (talk) 06:19, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I first published the idea on my own blog, but yeah, I did later bring it up on hddb. I wasn't aware that they had standardized on a version of my system (going against my express preference as to suffixes!). I borrowed wood (xylo–) from the Chinese elements; metal can be another, and then maybe back to Greece with aether? —Tamfang (talk) 02:23, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Voiceless labial-velar approximant

Does [ʍ] = [hw]? Double sharp (talk) 08:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, but that's how it might be heard to an English speaker. The lede of that article is misleading as hell. - filelake shoe 08:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How does one pronounce a true [ʍ]? Double sharp (talk) 09:00, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a voiceless [w]. Perhaps it sounds more like it has an [h] in it because the voicing doesn't obscure the breath. - filelake shoe 09:04, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is a sound that occurs in some varieties of English at the beginning of most words spelled "wh...". If you've heard this pronunciation, you may remember it. It is a single consonant, not the consonant cluster suggested by "wh". This may not be phonologically quite accurate, but you can approximate the sound by pronouncing [w] and [h] simultaneously. Marco polo (talk) 15:16, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The wackiness is with h, not ʍ or w. Does any language contrast /ʍ/ with /hw/ or /wh/? There might be some English accent with GOAT = THOUGHT + [w] or MOUTH = TRAP/PALM + [w]; so add /h/ and /ʍ/ respectively for a minimal pair...Allah-wheels/allow-heels ? jnestorius^(talk) 21:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish terminal "-r" sounding like "-rzh" or "-rsh"

Some Turkish speakers tend to pronounce words ending with "-r" like "-rzh" or "-rsh". Not everyone does it, and it seems to occur mainly when the word ending with "-r" is the last word of a sentence, while you hear a clear "r" sound if another word follows it.

You can hear examples of this on this YouTube video:

At :03 seconds the speaker pronounces kelimeler as "kelimelerzh", and at :40 seconds pronounces onlar as "onlarzh" or "onlarsh".

Here is another example from a YouTube video I found mentioned in a forum site :

at :11 seconds, and again at :59, the speaker pronounces hayir as "hayirzh". A at 4:31 she reads three phrases in which she pronounces bir as "birzh"- then repeats the phrases pronouncing it "bir".

I couldn't find anything on this phenomenon other than inquires of it by learners of Turkish, and curiously most Turks are not aware of it, some even deny it strongly. Is there any formal description of this? To make the question more generic, how would you describe/label this kind of R sound? Has such a phenomenon been observed in other languages? --İnfoCan (talk) 16:20, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have an answer, but t's also discussed briefly at the alveolar trill's talk page: Talk:Alveolar_trill#The_Turkish_Final_.22r.22 (though the sound is an alveolar flap, not trill, according to our article on Turkish phonology). ---Sluzzelin talk 17:25, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"R" has interchanged with a fricative at various times and places. In West Slavonic, before a front vowel, /r/ became a fricativised trill in Czech (written '"ř") and a fricative /ʒ/ in Polish (written "rz"). On the other hand, in North Germanic, final "-r" results from an original "-s", apparently via "-z". --ColinFine (talk) 17:36, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My assumption when I met a Turkish speaker was that it was tied in with word-final consonant devoicing, where word-final b d g v z become p t k f s. r seems to have been classified more like z than like l or n, so it devoices as well. In the process, it also becomes more sh-like, likely because a devoiced r is harder to produce than a normal r. Our page on Turkish phonology seems to confirm this. Lsfreak (talk) 18:13, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(I don't know anything about where it comes from, but I met a Turkish person today whose name ended in -r. To my ears, it sounded like a lateral affricate.)

"Long-lived"

I've been watching Jeopardy! recently and one two separate occasions I've heard Alex Trebek distinctly pronounce long-lived, with "lived" pronounced the same way you would pronounce live in "live concert", but with a "d" added at the end, as opposed to "lived" being pronounced as you would live in "Liv Tyler" but with a "d" on the end. I know I could avoid all this explication if I learned IPA but I haven't. It sounds so wrong to me as he's saying it, but if you watch the show you see this is someone who spends a lot of time practicing foreign word pronunciation. I know he's Canadian, where this may be the common way it is spoken. So, is there a correct way to pronounce it or is it just regional? How do you (responders) pronounce it and where are you from? (I'm in New York)--108.54.17.117 (talk) 22:10, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, both Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (U.S.) and the OED list the "-lïvd" (long i) pronunciation first. The second pronunciation in MWNCD is "-livd" (short i); the OED gives "-lifd" as an "also" pronunciation. I've always pronounced it to rhyme with jived myself (U.S. Midwest). Deor (talk) 22:31, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I don't think it is 'wrong' to pronounce it either way. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the adjectives 'lived' and 'long-lived' are pronounced -[laɪvd], which is like you described as in "live concert". The reason is that it is derived from the noun 'life', not from the verb 'to live'; it means having long life. However, it also says on long-lived that it is "Often pronounced (lɒŋlɪvd), as if etymologically parallel to smooth-spoken, etc." (btw I would be inclined to pronounce it as livd, but English is not my first language, so...) - Lindert (talk) 22:36, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here in Australia I have never heard it pronounced as if it rhymes with "jived". Always just "livd". HiLo48 (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

British English speaker here and I concur with you. Nobody ever rhymes it with jived. --TammyMoet (talk) 02:51, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I had a teacher in high school who drummed the /laɪvd/ (rhymes with jived) pronunciation into me. I also learned that err is pronounced like the ancient nation of Ur. --Trovatore (talk) 23:33, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard it from time to time. Trebek is Canadian, so that might have something to do with it. Although I've never heard him say, "Oot and aboot, eh." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ —Preceding undated comment added 00:41, 4 May 2012 (UTC).[reply]

I've never heard anyone in Canada say it like that. I think it's more that Trebek is pretentious than any particular nationality. Thinks he's so smart! He's got all the answers in front of him! Adam Bishop (talk) 16:56, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You you been long-livid over this issue ? :-) StuRat (talk)

W. S. Gilbert has the Sergeant of Police rhyming "long-lived" with "contrived" in the finale of The Pirates of Penzance (see here]), though I've always assumed it's for comic effect. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:14, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, as in, "Every boy and every gal / That's born into the world alive / Is either a little Liberal / Or else a little Conservative." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems likely that [laɪvd] was the earlier pronunciation, and that [lɪvd] first gained a foothold due to ambiguities of English spelling. However, [lɪvd] seems to be more common in most areas now... AnonMoos (talk) 16:19, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This difference is listed on the relevant Wikipedia page. jnestorius^(talk) 21:20, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I find that rather surprising. I always thought the rhymes-with-jived pronunciation was the "correct, strictly speaking, but nobody uses it" pronunciation everywhere. I definitely think it's the less common pronunciation in the States (but it's clearly the one that makes more sense etymologically). --Trovatore (talk) 01:43, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]