Wikipedia talk:Build the web/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

How to label this page

As far as I can see (and I don't think anyone can seriously suggest that the outcome of the recent discussion at WT:MOSLINK#Resurrect this guideline? is compatible with this page's being marked a current guideline, though if someone wants to make that argument then go ahead), there are three possibilities:

1.{{essay}}:

2.{{historical}}

3.{{former guideline|Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)}}

4.{{guideline}}:

5. No template.

Examples of templates removed as categorized this page. DexDor ^(talk) 21:25, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

For me the fourth option is the more preferable, but I would not be opposed if a consensus formed behind the first option or the fifth. I reject the third option, since in the past we have deleted such templates, and I feel it just adds another unnecessary template to the many we have. I'd also prefer it if we avoid any attempt to place a time limit on this discussion, and simply let it run its course. Hiding T 15:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

But please, give arguments if you're supporting the fourth version, since we had a detailed discussion which rejected that option. It's no help to just say "I like this" - you must address the arguments which appeared to show that it was wrong.--Kotniski (talk) 16:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. I'm arguing for guideline status since this page is a concise, actionable expression of what we are in part attempting to achieve, and it is extremely useful to new editors to have things in a short form to avoid confusion. I still recall my first time here as a Wikipedia editor, when I found the overly long pages with their very confusing tags incredibly daunting. This was back when things weren't even policy pages but rules to consider and the like. The shorter pages were much more helpful, and there are a number of editors who still find shorter guidance incredibly helpful. I'm also concerned that the drive towards longer, more complicated guidance is occurring at the same time as the trend for fewer contributions and fewer contributors, and the anecdotal evidence that the two are linked. I'd like Wikipedia to remain as accessible and open to as many people as possible, and to allow us to remain as adaptive to and considerate of as many people's needs as possible. Hiding T 16:16, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

So how is a new editor supposed to chance on this page among the hundreds or possibly thousands of pages we have hanging around project space? And surely you're not suggesting that this page in its present form is useful for that purpose - it would need to be rewritten, firstly to make sense to ordinary human beings, and secondly to present both sides of the issue. I certainly agree about making the documentation on Wikipedia accessible, and how to do that is a much larger issue than just this page. (Too long pages is one problem; too many pages is another; lack of overall logical structure is another.)--Kotniski (talk) 16:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

well, see back when I came here, there was an introduction to Wikipedia that took you through all these pages. Lately we seem to have templatised all that, so we have a template that lists policies, and another that lists guidelines, so I assume they would find it like that. I mean, forgive me if I am being silly, but wouldn't that particular problem be faced by any guideline, no matter what it was? Hiding T 16:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Ohm and I agree with regards the fact that too many pages is another problem and a lack of overall logical structure is another. I'd certainly like to see the last one addressed; it would probably take care of the first one. My only fear is that it would lead to too long pages as a result. I think there has become a tendency on Wikipedia to attempt to bolt every single possible door a horse might escape from, inclusive of cat flaps. Hiding T 16:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

So if we were to introduce "baby" guidelines aimed specifically at new editors, then there ought to be a special template directing them to those. But then "Build the web" is a rather opaque title to put on such a template. Are there any other cases like this? I'm thinking maybe about WP:Categorization, which is another long guideline, but works in conjunction with other pages: Help:Category (which, like most Help: pages, is not particularly helpful) and WP:FAQ/Categorization (which is more of an entry point perhaps). Perhaps a rewritten, neutrally worded BTW could stand in the same relation to WP:Linking as the FAQ does to Categorization. But the whole system needs to be reorganized so that both new and old editors can find the information they need. At the moment it's a total mess, as I think we all know from practical experience.--Kotniski (talk) 16:54, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

We seem to have gone off topic. I'm finding I'm not understanding the main arguments against this page at the minute. Either it has been merged into another page, which means it can't conflict with that page, or it hasn't been merged, which means it shouldn't have been deprecated? Hiding T 09:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Hiding, you're missing the point that this page disagrees with the new linking standard at WP:MOSLINKS, which is that articles can "be linked to other Wikipedia articles which are likely to add significantly to readers' understanding of the topic." The new standard would preclude most of our traditional links. For example, in the article on Ben Franklin, we would no longer link to Philadelphia, or electricity, or kite, or United States one hundred-dollar bill because none of those links are likely to "deepen" a reader's understanding of the topic of Ben Franklin. This page suggests, even encourages, those links. -- Kendrick7^talk 01:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

A reason to make MOSLINKS, and the rest of the MOScruft, not guidelines; they do not represent consensus, but the latest round of editwarring; they do not represent what Wikipedia does, but what one or another gang demands Wikipedia do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Anderson has been conducting a one-person crusade against the status of the style guides for some time; few people listen. It has not changed in substance. Kendrick, MOSLINK hasn't suddenly, or even recently, advised against such trivial links (although the dollar-bill one might be appropriate in some articles, and Philadelphia perhaps in a few). The recommendation against trivial blue has been well-established for a long time. Tony (talk) 07:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC) PS, under no circumstances is BTW framed as a guide line, either in scope or language. It seems to be pushing a marginalised one-horse cause. It is best framed as an essay, or a historical page. Tony (talk) 07:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Tony, however, has been nice enough to respond to all of my posts on the subject; some might think he had something to defend, besides the specious "authority" of MOS and its innumerable subpages.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

• BTW was a guideline since 2002 up until a month ago. I would think that kite should be linked from the most famous person to ever fly a kite, myself. We can quibble over examples, and maybe Old Ben isn't the best, but we're still talking about a fundamental change over what is or is not linked. -- Kendrick7^talk 09:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so - BTW was too vaguely written to be considered to give any guidance about any specific situations. MOSLINK is now more detailed but still leaves a lot to the editor's judgement. I don't think anything has changed, certainly not fundamentally - or if it has, then it's changed in people's behaviour already, and the current MOSLINK reflects that. If you think that MOSLINK is wrong about something, then the best thing to do is to formulate and propose a change to that page. --Kotniski (talk) 10:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, it was advice. Nothing we can say on this subject, here or elsewhere, can be more, and this was at least coherent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

You obviously have a different definition of "coherent" than I do. It certainly didn't address the topic fully, and we now have a page that does, so we don't need to distract and mislead people with this one any more.--Kotniski (talk) 09:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Um, I'm getting a little confused. In what way does this page mislead people? Hiding T 09:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Firstly that the meaning of most of its sentences is unclear (read it, imagining you're a new editor, and you'll see); secondly that it seems to say "all links are good" (at least, it mentions nothing about the links which should not be made).--Kotniski (talk) 10:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

For a long period of its existence, the page did contain pointers regarding links which should not be made. And I don't have to imagine being a new editor, I was one once, and I read it back then, and it didn't seem very confusing at all. It still doesn't. Where does the confusion lie? What do you think is the central message of this page? Hiding T 10:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Precisely, I don't know. "Make lots of links" seems to be the only message, though the reasons given are weird (it talks of abstract things like webs and nodes, when the real reason we create links is to help real readers). The "make links" message is certainly something that needs to be conveyed to very new editors somehow, but preferably with the accompanying message that we don't link everything just because we can. Then once people get used to the basics of editing and want more detail, they can come to MOSLINK and get the full lowdown on the topic. We should certainly have a summary page or section on linking for new editors, but (1) it has to be placed within the context of the pages that new editors read, to make sure that they see it; (2) it has to be written in clear explicit language; (3) it ought to mention that it's not always right to link; (4) it probably shouldn't be called "Build the web"; (5) it wouldn't be classed as a guideline in the WP sense. --Kotniski (talk) 11:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

You seem to have made a lot of assumptions there, based on a statement in which you indicate that you don't know what is wrong with this page. Let's track it back a little. How do the reasons given on this page conflict with the idea that we create links to help readers? Hiding T 11:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I know what's wrong with the page; I meant that I don't know what the message is. And there's no conflict between those things, but if you want to say something, say it clearly without introducing needless abstractions that many people will not understand.--Kotniski (talk) 11:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)I've just tried editing a page as a logged-out user and following some of the links. Obviously there are a lot of paths - perhaps they need to be cut down so that a new editor is taken to the information that we know is most likely to be helpful (such people themselves are in little position to know what links to click). One page I found myself on where the linking message seemed to be absent was Wikipedia:Your first article. Perhaps we should be thinking about adding to that page and others like it.--Kotniski (talk) 11:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Have we moved to the point where maybe that should be Wikipedia:Your first edit? regarding this page, though, and getting back to your point that you don't know what the message of this page is, I'd like to probe at that a little further. I don;t quite believe a person of your capabilities has no grasp of what the message of this page is. You seem to have danced around it a little, but I think you know what it is saying. So if all we are arguing about with regards this page is that it is badly written, that's a solvable problem, isn't it? Unless you're indicating that you don't want people to build the web, which would sort of defeat us being a hypertextual encyclopedia, wouldn't it? Hiding T 12:10, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is a solvable problem, and it has been solved, by merging it into a well-written (he said immodestly) page that conveys the same message with much more detail available for those who want it. The only remaining problem seems to be making sure that new editors get the basic message(s) about linking without having to explore our appallingly ill-structured jungle of WP:/Help: pages. Do you see any other problem?--Kotniski (talk) 12:34, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Now I'm at a loss. If you don't understand what the message is, how do can you state you've merged it? Hiding T 12:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I've merged what appeared to be the message. I kept asking people during the recent discussion to tell me what I'd left out, and no-one had anything to say (except Hex's complaint that I'd changed "the" to "a", which seems to be at about the same level of pedantry as "w" vs. "W"). Do you think I've missed something out?--Kotniski (talk) 12:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

• At this point I think the page needs to be tagged as an essay or redirected to MOSLINK. Hiding T 21:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
• I personally like number 3. This page, I believe was part of policy and it should be kept because if its large historical reference, but it appears to have been superseded. Foxy Loxy ^Pounce! 11:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• I think BTW is still a very good guideline and one of the main things we should be doing here at wikip. Tom B (talk) 15:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• I'll go with door number three, thanks.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:25, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• If I didn't say so above, yes, door no. 3. There's the procedural issue (already had consensus), the inappropriate angle and tone for a guideline, the almost total lack of distinctive content (it's said at WP:LINKING, and the fact that it's poorly written. Tony (talk) 16:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• I'd go with former guideline, with essay as a second choice. Stifle (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
• I'm not going to stand in the way of number three if that's the prevailing opinion. Hiding T 14:47, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
• I support option 3, (but wouldn't be heartbroken to see option 5). I've already given some reasons on this page as to why the ramblings on the BTW page are best laid to rest.  HWV258  03:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
• I am in support of option 4. This guideline seems one that is built upon common sense, and this I believe should be followed (even though most do follow it). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Axmann8 (talk • contribs) 04:18, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

View from the sidelines

I have always found BTW useful to quote for the following argument: hyperlinks are useful and easy to do on wikis, hence our articles should have plenty of internal links. I don't think we have a better known policy stating this, and while there might have been too much instruction creep on this page in the past, I support the idea of having a policy which encourages having internal links in articles. PS. Of course, due attention should be paid to avoid interlinking, but that's not difficult. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Which part of the Linking guideline would you like to select for your future quotes? "Linking is one of the most important features of Wikipedia", or "It is an important Wikipedia guideline that editors should build the Web by creating articles and adding appropriate links between them", or "However, overlinking is also something to be avoided. A high density of irrelevant links makes it harder for the reader to identify and follow those links which are likely to be of value" are all good. There's plenty more there as well—enjoy.  HWV258  03:41, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, that's useful, I didn't know of that one. In that case, what's the difference between BTW and LINKING? I have to admit I am failing to see one, which leads me to tentatively support arguments for a merger. PS. I forgot to mention the importance of Wikipedia:Red link. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, you can read the comments above on this page for more opinions on the issue of difference. In my humble, the Linking guideline is BTW "done right" (but like all articles on WP, they are both works in progress).  HWV258  21:32, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Coming at this from a different approach

Looking at this entire thing from a completely different angle (and in relation to MOSNUM issues) I would like to suggest the following:

There needs to be a separation of how we display information to the reader (a Manual of Style issue) and why we display information in that fashion to the reader (a content issue).

If I think to the physical MOS (UofChicago, S&W, etc.) these are all highly objective determinations that are simply identified without any consideration of what the author was thinking at the time. The same is true for some of what we have MOS here for - references after punctuation, non breaking spaces between units, etc. These are generally similar enough that bots can be used to identify when they are correct or not without much more programming than simple regex solutions. Then we have the content aspects of these, which is where there is human consideration and variability, and while a few aspects may have black and white answers, most are going to be up to the editors themselves to determine if things are met appropriately.

What this relates to the present discussion is that when I read WP:MOSLINK, it is a mix of hows and whys of linking. (It even states this in the lede). There's really only a few sections in this document that say the whys. Now, I'm not saying to lose that information, but instead for purposes of separately out absolutes (the "how"s) from the subjectives (the "why"s), this page (WP:BTW) should probably be considered the summary of all the "why" advice, which includes the BTW statements and the section in MOSLINK that explains when and when not to link. That make no longer make this page "Build the Web" (though that would remain a logical subsection of it) but still would explain how to subjectively evaluate each link. Basically, this would make the page work like what the MOSLINK "External Links" section starts like - a brief acknowledgment to the guideline on when ELs are made (the "Why") and then the uncontentious "how"s.

In this way, the MOS aspects of linking can be strongly enforced, and leaves the decision on when to link up to the editors and discussion when articles are reviews, allowing common sense to be applied naturally. When they are combined as they are not in MOSLINK, it is hard to separate what is a hard fast rule from a rule with leeway (and thus why I believe those seeking to retain BTW are insisting, because the advice is better than what currently given on MOSLINK). This advice would probably work for most of the other MOS pages as well. (certainly at MOSNUM over the recent issue of date linking). --MASEM (t) 14:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for saying this, but it's not entirely clear to me per se, and does not address the issue from the point of view of editors who are looking for recommendations. There is no reason for this to be sequestered out. Have you read MOSLINK? It says all of the same things as are here. Dividing style guidelines on an arbitrary how vs why would not do anyone a service. It is hard enough to manage/coordinate the pages as it is now. Cole, over to you for another opportunity to slam me, please ... Tony (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

What I'm saying is "when" or "why" to link is not a style guideline (when considering what traditional style guidelines are, recognizing that one for hyperlink documents will be rather different) and rather a content decision. Style guidelines can be easily enforced; content guidelines much less so. That's fundamentally what happened at MOSNUM, and what's happening here.

Also, while I that the advise on MOSLINK and what's on BTW are fundamentally the same, they are very different in their approaches, one is top-down, the other bottom-up, both working to the same goal. Since linking in a hypertext encyclopedia is important, I see no reason why both pieces of advise cannot both exist at the same time, and ideally on the same page so a newer editor can compare and contrast to understand how to create links. But this aspect is all content driven, and not a style issue, which is why they should be segregated out. --MASEM (t) 14:47, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand exactly what separation you're proposing, or how it would be helpful either for those using the guidelines or those maintaining them. Do you think WP:Linking is excessively long? If not, isn't it easier for editors looking for advice on that subject to go to just the one place? If there is no very clear conceptual division between the content of the two pages, then they will tend over time to come to duplicate and even contradict each other, as we have seen in other situations. I think this distinction between "style" and "content" is not only unnecessary, but is understood differently by different people, this and would lead to confusion over what should be on one page and what on the other. I also think we should avoid separating statements on the basis of how hard and fast they are as rules - all rules are subject to exceptions on WP, and there is a continuum of absoluteness, not a clear division into a couple of discrete categories (and it doesn't depend much on whether they're style or content issues). We already have a false dichotomy between policies and guidelines - let's not start another one.--Kotniski (talk) 15:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

From seeing what happened at MOSNUM and seeing what's happening here, it is clear that there are people (like Tony) that want to have heavily-enforced MOS, using bots if so necessary, at least as articles move away from stubs and the like, but clearly an article can't be FA without adhering to the MOS. That approach is fine, if not a bit heavy-handed, but is necessary for quality assurance when an article gets that bronze star. But because of this, the MOS should be issues that are strictly objective, the "how" things are done, with just a necessary amount of common sense where appropriate but little room for subjective determination. Things such as when dates are linked, or why any word or phrase should linked, are very subjective, and those we can provide guideline advice on them but outside of style concerns.

I know the aspect of MOS's being treated as policy vs guideline is an issue at the date linking ArbCom, but for all practical purposes, if we removed all subjective aspects of the MOSs and put them in content guidelines, the MOSs should be able to become policy, the content guidelines remaining as guidelines. That achieves the same dichotomy as, say, WP:V and WP:RS (policy with a guideline to clarify specifics). Since there is a strong urge to get the MOSs to the level of policy, we should make sure that they are as objective as possible to avoid a repeat of MOSNUM. --MASEM (t) 16:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

If there's really a dispute about whether MOS should be policy or guideline, that just further proves my theory that the p/g distinction is a pointless distraction. All these pages should be there to provide guidance to editors and a means of settling certain disputes. Some guidance can be formulated as specific rules (which may have more or less frequent exceptions), some is more vague and subjective - but this applies to all types of guidance, style-related or content-related or behaviour-related or whatever. We should be designing these pages with readers (i.e. WP editors) in mind, making it easy and intuitive to find the information they're looking for - and also bearing in mind the difficulties with maintaining the pages which are always subject to attempts to skew them by those involved in arguments elsewhere. For both of these reasons, I strongly favour organizing pages by subject, not by abstract type of statement, and keeping the number of pages on any given subject as small as is practical (though without any page becoming so long as to be unwieldy - this can sometimes be achieved by compacting the advice rather than splitting it). --Kotniski (talk) 16:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

It might be a helpful discussion to figure out exactly what the MOSs are supposed to do: are they "must follow"s with limited exemptions (like policy) or are they guidance? The current use of them are arbitrary so we need to figure that out to really figure out the right direction. --MASEM (t) 18:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, this is a false dichotomy. Some style statements are pretty absolute, some a bit less so, some a lot less so. And the same with statements about content, behaviour, deletion and so on. There are many things written on policy pages that are not or could not be enforced except as vague guidance, while there are things on some guideline pages that are and should be respected in almost all cases. It would be impractical to attempt to divide pages up in such a way that the statements on any given page represent the same degree of exceptibility. People can see by the form of the statement how absolute it is meant to be (whether it is objective or subjective, whether it contains words like "must", "should", "usually", "often" "never" etc.); the pages should be divided thematically so that people know where to come for full guidance on a particular subject.--Kotniski (talk) 08:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

In fact, if I understand correctly, your idea is more about splitting up WP:Linking than utilizing WP:BTW, so would it be more appropriate to move this discussion to the Linking talk page?--Kotniski (talk) 17:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that's necessarily a better venue; as I'm reading this, this entire issue started as an attempt to merge/redirect BTW to LINKING due to duplicity of content, and that's still in dispute. --MASEM (t) 18:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Not so much duplicity as duplication (I wouldn't accuse outright). No, the policy/guideline issue is irrelevant to whether this page should be re-elevated to guideline status. What counts is the clarity and good organisation of our guidelines for editors, and this split makes utterly no sense. Most guidelines contain both "how" and "why" elements, with good justificaiton. Tony (talk) 07:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you say that the duplication is "in dispute", but if you look, you'll see no-one is actually disputing it (we keep inviting people to, but meet only silence or personal attacks in response). If you want to dispute it, then it looks like you'll need to spell out the arguments yourself.--Kotniski (talk) 08:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

What's in dispute is whether we need to do anything about the duplication (which is not exact, and getting less so as Tony pushes his POV at LINKING), and, if we do need to do something, what. I don't think we need do anything at all, and reducing the references at Linking down to summary style should solve any remaining content problem. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't outright call it duplication, and I don't argue the advice is similar - however, the approach in how they are written is very different. The LINKING advice is more geared towards avoiding overlinking and practical linking approaches, while BTW is gears towards a more holistic approach to linking. Neither is bad advise, nor contradictory with each other, but BTW's philosophical nature is a good guideline for newer editors to consider instead of the sanitary nature of the LINKING ones. It does not hurt to have both. --MASEM (t) 15:13, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

What in Build the web do you consider to be of any philosophical value (I mean, greater philosophical value than the lede of Linking)? I keep asking people this, and never seem to get an answer - maybe you all consider it too obvious to need spelling out, but I genuinely can't see it. I don't doubt that it's possible to write a good philosophical essay about hyperlinking in Wikipedia, but this doesn't seem to be it.--Kotniski (talk) 15:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Even if the words were exactly the same, here they have a different presentation - the title of the page better expresses the message and it is not weighed down with other technical matters that are not relevant to the message. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

But the title doesn't express the message - that's one of the most obvious faults. The title seems to say "make lots of links to the World Wide Web", and yet the essay doesn't mention external links at all, it's all about making links within Wikipedia. (Building the Web is actually something we specifically do NOT go out of our way to do, as I've said before.) And this essay uses hierarchical language - upwards, downwards, sideways - which apart from not being explained, is incompatible with the idea of a web (which as far as I know doesn't have a top and a bottom). The wording might seem superficially attractive if you know already what it's trying to say; but obviously it should be written for those who don't yet know.--Kotniski (talk) 07:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

• Manderson, just as well we all realise your mono-agenda: to reduce the authority and utility of the styleguides. It's been going on for a few years now; I'm surprised you haven't given up—it's a very transparent one-person mantra. Now you've found a great way to stick your fingers into this particular issue, as you did at the Workshop page, to push your little peeves. Equally useless. Tony (talk) 03:31, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Masem, I disagree strongly that "it doesn't hurt"; the MoS is weakened by such fragmentation, which is why Manderson is doing his utmost to opportunistically put his hammer in the works here. It comprises more than 50 pages, I believe, and it is not fair to the project to fight against clear-headed rationalisation. Where, exactly, is this "philosophy" expressed that is not expressed at the start of and during MOSLINK? We need solid, specific answers to the separate sentences I've set out above. Tony (talk) 16:00, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Tony's use of fragmentation implies some novel or Pickwickian sense of the word. This page was merged into MOS in January after a short discussion among a small number of editors; it was demerged in February; MoS remains as it used to be. I do not believe that the conquests of MOS are irreversible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Again, what this comes around to is exactly what strength we are expecting the MOS to hold. When I think "manual of style" I think of what I've had to use in the past in printed forms: hard, fast rules on writing layout, capitalization, punctuation, etc. that give little wiggle room for the writer as they are meant to be objectively determined if met. Given what I've seen at FAC and the date formatting ArbCom issue, that seems to be the approach that people want here; the MOSs are nearly equivalent to policy. That's fine, but that means we run into trouble of non-objective advice placed among objective rules. Advice can never be considered policy.
    • If you're happy with MOS as guidelines and should only be treated as such, then sure, I can see merging BTW into the MOS and thus reduce duplicity (but again, I think both written link advice sections are useful even together). But if you want the MOS to be policy, anything that's not objective needs to be stripped from it, and thus I'd take out the linking advice from MOSLINK and move it to here. You can't have it both ways. --MASEM (t) 14:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
      • I don't know if "you" means me, but (1) I don't have any ambition for MOS to be marked as policy; (2) I don't think WP:Linking should be marked as part of the MOS (and it wouldn't be if it wasn't for one editor's misguided reverts); (3) there's lots of non-objective advice in policy pages already (just read some of them and you'll see). So as far as I'm concerned (I don't speak for anyone else), the issues you raise don't arise.--Kotniski (talk) 14:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
        • "You" in general, but again, I'm not against merging as long as in the future the advice that Linking/BTW gives is not used to strongarm MOS compliance - the timing of this with the recent kerfluffle on date linking is somewhat disconcerting, though I recognize that what's being asked to be done here really shouldn't affect that. --MASEM (t) 14:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Break

• Support merge I didn't participate in the original discussions, but I think that merging these pages was appropriate and should be (re)done. LINKING needs a strong explanation of why we link, and BTW needs the practical information. It's one-stop shopping for the editors. There's no advantage to keeping these pages split up, and the arguments appear to have a lot more to do with WP:OWNership by the BTW supporters than anything else. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose merge On face it seems like a reasonable idea but from what has occurred on the WP:LINKING page it appears to me that a number of people involved in this are acting in bad faith: it appears that this isn't an effort to merge but to demote to an essay or otherwise minimize the BTW guideline. The mergers and other editors remove any indication on that page that BTW is a guideline while avoiding talk page justification or explanation, or with shifting reasoning; Tony1, if you note in the archives of this talk page, had previously made repeated efforts to get this page demoted from guideline status; and Kotniski now claims that he doesn't understand the meaning of BTW's title although he appears to have had a big hand in the merge. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 04:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
  • What??????? Avoiding talk page justification or explanation???????? We have constantly explained, argued, engaged, asked for reasons why this needs to be a separate guideline, and got pretty much no response from the "other side" (with a couple of exceptions perhaps, although there still doesn't seem to be an answer to the question). Please stop personalizing and address the substantial issues about this page.--Kotniski (talk) 09:26, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

There's basically no interest in explaining or justifying why BTW as expressed in the WP:LINKING page cannot be identified as a Wikipedia guideline - exactly as I said above. Nothing personal at all, simply a fact - one that even fifteen question marks in the space of two sentences will not do away with.

Your claims that you do not understand what BTW means (via asking everyone whether it means anything at all) are entirely relevant to this discussion - it's not as though I made that up, I provided a direct diff to your statement and I assume that you don't dispute the fact you said it. If you actually do think you understand what BTW means (as you certainly should have before merging the guideline), simply state it, and don't pretend not to as a rhetorical tactic attempting to force other people to offer a definition first. Otherwise it's entirely relevant to point out that one of the chief architects of the merge is stating that you don't understand what "build the web" means.

And of course pointing out that Tony1 has repeatedly been involved in efforts to demote this guideline in the past is in no way a personal attack and is entirely and completely apropos - your claim that alerting others to these points is some sort of inappropriate "personalizing" is simply more evidence of bad faith.

If you are insisting that as a precondition to discussing what the meaning of BTW is, its project page must be taken down and any identification of it as a guideline must be removed from Wikipedia first, you just aren't going to get very far. Not with me, anyways. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 21:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not making any preconditions. Let's hear it then: the meaning of BTW. --Kotniski (talk) 12:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

This is only my understanding of it; the web is the way in which articles link together to give readers the ability to navigate as if crossing a spider's web, taking any from a huge number of twists and turns to get from one side to the other. And much like a spider's web, the links (strands) need to be made to best suit the purpose of people getting caught in it. So the idea of building the web is to insert wiki-links and external links into an article that will further a reader's path through the information web, but which will not hinder them. And I think that's where the divisiveness starts. I mean, from a strict BTW perspective, date auto-formatting is bad, even more so when you look at the semantic web, because auto-formatting usurps the wiki-hypertext mark-up and utilises it for a different purpose. The other issue with regards divisiveness is linked to the density of links; I suppose, after all, we must consider how dense a spider's web is? I think Kotniski's rewrite, had it evolved over time and had people given this page full attention and thought about what it meant, it would have been uncontroversial, because I think it captures exactly what BTW means. BTW was never a license to wikify every word, because such a license has never been granted by the Wikipedia community. If people could put their partisan approaches behind them, and work out what the principle is, (build the web), and then suggest what makes a good link and what makes a bad link, we would, as a community, come out close to what Kotniski has drafted. I don't expect everyone would agree with every word, but that's not the point of consensus. The point of consensus is what we'll live with, not what we agree on in unanimity. The only thing we can all agree on in unanimity is that Wikipedia should exist. Everything else is what we'll live with rather than our personal view of that shared Wikipedia. It's a Wikipedia flawed by compromises rather than ideals, but it is a Wikipedia that exists. Bleh.... I'll stop there... I feel like I'm lecturing. Hiding T 13:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Support merge. Linking is a matter of balance. The following are two unquestionably bad examples:
  • Orchidaceae is the largest family of Angiospermae. Its name is derived from the genus Orchis.The Royal Botanical Gardens of Kew list 880 genera and nearly 22,000 accepted species.
  • Barack Hussein Obama II is the 44th and current President of the Unitead States. He is the first African American to hold the office.

BTW adresses only one of the problems. Some editors lean naturally towards one of the two extremes. Naturally they will look for guidelines that support their inclinations. An unbalanced guideline like BTW has the potential to cause disruption when editors feel that it justifies their incorrect edits. The guideline cannot be fixed so long as its very title is unbalanced.

Everything about the behaviour of the disputants here is a red herring. There is consistently bad behaviour from both sides. --Hans Adler (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• Support the previous merge. This page adds nothing new. It seems to be a private castle for a few people who want to maximise linking at whatever cost, although even that is unclear from the BTW page. It's fuzziness and fragmentation that WP's editors who seek guidance can do without. Tony (talk) 10:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
  • The end result of the advice isn't different from the section in LINKING, but it is more holistic than practical, and to that end, the text of the page should be kept in conjunction to contrast with LINKING. Whether here on BTW or on LINKING, it doesn't matter (as long as it's understood that if on the MOS page, MOS is only a guideline and thus not to be strongly enforced) but both pieces need to be given. --MASEM (t) 13:54, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
• Strong merge. What on earth is the point of this being a separate guideline? I realise it's probably been through a zillion iterations, but in its current form it's barely an essay. Stick it in WP:LINKING (or even MoS) as a section and be done with it. Rationalise! Simplify! I don't care about the content either way, but the needless duplication almost offends me. Isn't WP complicated enough? Rd232 ^talk 00:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)