Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One/Archive 25

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WikiProject Formula One (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This article is part of WikiProject Formula One, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to Formula One, including drivers, teams and constructors, events and history. Feel free to join the project and help with any of the tasks or consult the project page for further information.
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Archive 24 Archive 25 Archive 26

2010 F1 season

Just a heads up, I've asked on the article's talk page whether or not the article is ready to allow IPs to edit it again now that driver numbers are known. Replies there please. Mjroots (talk) 13:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Engine nationality

Could interested parties please add their views to the discussion at Talk:List_of_Formula_One_World_Constructors'_Champions#Engine nationality. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 02:11, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

1995 British Grand Prix

FYI, I have nominated 1995 British Grand Prix for Good Article status. Anyone who has not contributed heavily to the article (i.e. anyone except me :P ) is welcome to review it.--Midgrid(talk) 23:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

F1 video games?


I found a Formula One video game that appears to be under your project scope, but I'm not sure if this is correct because it seems to be the only one (that I found).


Are Formula One related videogames under your project's scope?NeoGenPT (talk) 19:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that F1 video game articles are within our project's scope (e.g. they are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Formula_One/Related_Pages#Games) but that not many of our members actively contribute to them (although I could be wrong). I think you're correct that very few of them are tagged with our project's template. DH85868993 (talk) 02:03, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Nor should they be. I'd actually like to raise the removing of game related data, specifically those large matrix tables of passing interest that fill race circuit articles, from WP:MS scoped articles. --Falcadore (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
What have music samples got to do with it? --Redrose64 (talk) 14:06, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't know. Why bring it up? --Falcadore (talk) 15:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
You brought it up first - have you tried putting WP:MS into the search box? --Redrose64 (talk) 15:41, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Yet template WPMS reaches WikiProject:Motorsport, it is possible that might be more relevant, but that is just a guess, yes? --Falcadore (talk) 21:25, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Constructor Formula One drivers

Belatedly realised I started a discussion on the wrong page, anyway - here it is. A question I have about the validty of a rash on new categories appearing in F1 drivers. --Falcadore (talk) 21:39, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Former F1 drivers

Does anyone have a printed source that contains the statistics of all drivers who have competed in at least one World Championship Grand Prix? Obviously it won't be completely up to date (unless it's literally just been printed), but it would be a huge help if someone could include it as a general reference here. There's no benefit inline citing every driver, but if we had, for instance, a printed source referencing every driver up until the millenium, finding online sources to source the careers of more recent drivers will be do-able. Thanks in advance, WFCforLife (talk) 16:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Any Reliable General and/or Specific References would be useful, thankyou. Afro Talkie Talk - Afkatk 16:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I have a copy of "Grand Prix - The Complete Guide" by Trevor R. Griffiths, but that was published in 1997. It does have total races contested, races won, pole positions, fastest laps and points from every season each driver contested in though, so it is very comprehensive. Would that be of any use to you? Schumi555 16:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I have two, each includes info that the other lacks:
  • Small, Steve (1994). The Guinness Complete Grand Prix Who's Who. Enfield: Guinness Publishing. ISBN 0 85112 702 9.  - correct to end of 1993 season. Alphabetical list of drivers; for each one there is biographical data and list of races contested, showing:
    • finishing pos (eg "ret")
    • race name (eg "BRITISH GP")
    • circuit (eg "Silverstone")
    • race no. (eg "1")
    • entrant (eg "Alfa Romeo SpA")
    • car/engine (eg "1.5 s/c Alfa Romeo 158/50 8")
    • comment (eg "oil pipe")
That is a genuine entry. For 2 points: who was that, and in what year?
Also listed are car changes, both during the race and between practise and race. Omitted are grid positions and race dates (other than year).
One cool thing about this book is the separation of team ("entrant") from constructor ("car"), so the various customer Marches etc. can be easily distinguished.
  • Griffiths, Trevor R. (1997) [1992]. Grand Prix: The Complete Guide (3rd ed.). Enderby: Blitz Editions. ISBN 1 85605 391 1.  Unknown parameter |month= ignored (|date= suggested) (help) - correct to end of 1997 season. Chronological list of races; for each race, the circuit, date, total laps and lap distance are given, followed by a list of the cars (nb not drivers) in finishing order. So we might have:
    • place (eg. "1")
    • driver (eg. "Farina")
    • car (eg. "Alfa Romeo")
    • laps (eg. "70")
    • time/reason for retiring (eg. "2h 13m 23.6s")
    • grid (eg. "1")
That is a genuine entry. For 2 points: where was that, and on what date?
Engine make is given, where different from the car make, but specifics like cylinders, displacement, aspiration are not. Also omitted are race numbers, and non-qualifying drivers cars.
--Redrose64 (talk) 20:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Those are two fantastic resources. For the purposes of this list the Steve Small book appears to be the best reference, but I'll certainly include both. Thank you very much for your help. WFCforLife (talk) 01:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I will be eternally grateful to anyone who can provide reliable sources for any of the following facts:

  • Alberto Ascari, Jean Behra, Juan Manuel Fangio, José Froilán González, Mike Hawthorn, Onofre Marimón and Stirling Moss were all credited with the same fastest lap time in the 1954 British Grand Prix, which was worth 1 championship point at the time. Each was credited with 0.143 points.
  • Bechem competed in the 1952 German Grand Prix under the pseudonym Bernd Nacke.
  • Hans Heyer illegally started the 1977 Germany Grand Prix, despite the fact he did not qualify.
  • Lombardi is the only female Formula One driver ever to score World Championship points.
  • Oppitzhauser entered the 1976 Austrian Grand Prix, but was refused the necessary clearances to start practice as he did not have enough racing experience.
  • Richardson qualified 10th for the 1951 Italian Grand Prix, but was not allowed to enter the race as he did not have the correct license.
  • Lastly, the list includes the footnote "Schumacher was disqualified from the 1997 World Championship on 78 points, these points are included in the total." Should they be included in the total? I was under the impression that his season was expunged from the record books? A source explaining would be a fantastic help.

Thanks in advance, WFCforLife (talk) 23:22, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

    • For Oppitzhauser: "There were two more drivers entered and on hand, both with ex-works Formula 1 cars. Karl Oppitzhauser had a March 761, and Otto Stuppacher a Tyrrell 007, but both were disappointed in their would-be Formula 1 début by their fellow drivers, not all of whom signed a 'signature-action' which would have let them participate. (No it wouldn't have, said a CSI official, he would have refused them permission anyway due to their general inexperience.) Neither car turned a wheel all the weekend."
    • Lyons, Pete (1976). Kettlewell, Mike, ed. Autocourse 1976-1977. Richmond, Surrey: Hazleton Securities Ltd. p. 157. ISBN 0-905138-01-5. --Midgrid(talk) 23:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
    • For Heyer: "Right at the back of the field, a long way behind the rest, was Hans Heyer's Penske, which had not qualified, of course. As the cars had formed up on the grid, the yellow car sat at the back, off the road, its driver strapped in and ready to go. As soon as the field had departed, Heyer moved and joined them, to a torrent of applause from the stands. This was nothing more than a blatant con-trick, a crowd-pleaser. Heyer had not qualified, had not even been first or second reserve, was blatantly disobeying FIA rules by having raced in a supporting event during the previous 24 hours and was now circulating in the race illegally. Early on, the German's gear-linkage broke and he retired, but one wondered about the legal position of the organisers had the car been involved in a serious accident...."
    • Roebuck, Nigel; Hutchinson, Jeff (1977). Kettlewell, Mike, ed. Autocourse 1977-1978. Richmond, Surrey: Hazleton Securities Ltd. p. 137. ISBN 0-905138-03-1.  Unknown parameter |authorname= ignored (help); --Midgrid(talk) 23:42, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
The Steve Small book stands as a reference for all that stuff, except possibly the Schumacher point. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Here's what Griffiths has to say:
  • British Grand Prix: Silverstone, 17 July 1954 Fastest lap: Ascari/Behra/Fangio/González/Hawthorn/Marimón/Moss. 1m 50s. 95.79 mph/154.16 kph [sic] (Griffiths 1997, p. 31) It doesn't state there that they received 0.143 pt each; but later on we have:
World Championship 1954
1 Fangio 42 (57.14)
2 González 25.14 (26.64)
3 Hawthorn 24.64
13= Marimón, Moss 4.14
25 Ascari 1.14
26 Behra 0.14

(Griffiths 1997, p. 34) so each got 0.14, not 0.143 pts ( 17 to 2dp)

  • Nacke, Bernd pseudonym of Bechem, Gunther (Griffiths 1997, p. 530)
  • Bechem, Gunther (also raced as Bernd Nacke) ... [contested] 1952, Ger -; 1953, Ger - Total contested: 2 (Griffiths 1997, p. 492)
  • German Grand Prix: Nürburgring. 3 August 1952
Place Driver Car Laps Time/reason for retiring Grid
Nacke BMW 4 spark plugs 29

(Griffiths 1997, p. 17)

  • German Grand Prix: Nürburgring. 2 August 1953
Place Driver Car Laps Time/reason for retiring Grid
Bechem AFM 2 30

(Griffiths 1997, pp. 24-25)

  • Heyer, Hans ... a reserve, who started his only grand prix illegally but retired. ... Contested: 1977, Ger - (Griffiths 1997, p. 516)
  • 1975 ... Lella Lombardi became the first woman to score in the championship (Griffiths 1997, p. 194)
  • Lombardi, Lella ... The first woman to score in the championship (Griffiths 1997, p. 524)
  • Oppitzhauser is not mentioned at all (Griffiths 1997).
  • Richardson is not mentioned at all (Griffiths 1997).
World Championship 1954
1 Villeneuve 81
Schumacher 78 (disqualified)
2 [sic] Frentzen 24.64

(Griffiths 1997, p. 484)

  • 1997 ... Schumacher's second place in the Drivers' Championship was disallowed by the FIA after the end of the season. (Griffiths 1997, p. 472)
I would say that Schumacher got the points, which should therefore be included; but not the championship position. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Right, now I shall examine Small.
  • Re Ascari et al in the 1954 British GP: these just show "FL (shared)" for five of the drivers (Small 1994, pp. 37,51,134,161,245), without giving the race points; only the drivers' career points are given, eg. 140.64 for Ascari. In the case of Hawthorn and Moss, it just states "FL". (Small 1994, pp. 179,261)
  • Bechem and Nacke (listed as "NACKE, Bernhard) are given separate entries; there is no mention of them being the same person. (Small 1994, pp. 49,264)
  • LELLA LOMBARDI ... became the first and thus far the only woman to have finished in the top six in a Grand Prix (Small 1994, p. 231) - since the book includes the whole career of Giovanna Amati (move over, Hill's here), and there have been no female F1 drivers since, can we take that as current information?
  • I'll take three drivers together:-
Race Circuit No Entrant Car/Engine Comment Ref
ret GERMAN GP Hockenheim 35 ATS Racing Team 3.0 Penske PC4-Cosworth V8 (Small 1994, p. 183,412)
dnp AUSTRIAN GP Österreichring 40 Sports Cars of Austria 3.0 March 761-Cosworth V8 (Small 1994, p. 413)
dnq ITALIAN GP Monza 32 BRM Ltd 1.5 s/c BRM P15 V16 (Small 1994, p. 414)
  • As mentioned above, the book is not recent enough to include Schumacher's disq. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:34, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

2008 Hungarian Grand Prix - Peer Review

I have nominated 2008 Hungarian Grand Prix for a peer review here. Any comments are welcomed and much appreciated.--Midgrid(talk) 21:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Formula One/Featured material

I propose that we remove the material from this list that has never been featured, i.e. the articles from WilliamsF1 down, and all but the first two images. Any thoughts?--Midgrid(talk) 21:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind it so much, as a reminder that these articles need further work to be brought up to standard hoped for. --Falcadore (talk) 23:14, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

2009 season information

With the end of the year approaching, I thought we should probably discuss/decide when we want to remove 2009 season information from the various driver/team infoboxes and navigation templates. January 1 seems like a good time to me. Thoughts? DH85868993 (talk) 14:39, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. --Falcadore (talk) 00:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the 2009 parameters from {{Infobox F1 driver}} and {{Infobox F1 team}}. Note that I haven't removed the parameters from the team and driver articles; that can be done as/when the articles are edited for other reasons. I've also removed the 2009 teams/drivers from {{Formula One teams}} and removed the template from teams/drivers who are (not yet confirmed as) competing in the 2010 season. MotorsportPete93 has updated {{Formula One Championship}}, {{Formula One constructors}}, {{Formula One races}} and {{Formula One circuits}}. DH85868993 (talk) 22:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)


There's a discussion in progress at Talk:1979_Formula_One_season#Fittipaldi_or_Copersucar.3F about whether the cars entered by Fittipaldi Automotive in 1979 should be referred to as "Copersucars" or "Fittipaldis". Please add any views you may have to the existing discussion. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 00:15, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Wanted: Dead or Alive

When I recently added the following people to the relevant "<nationality> motorsport people" category, I noticed that they were in neither Category:Living people nor a "YYYY deaths" category - does anyone have any reliable information as to whether the following people are still alive?:

Feel free to either add the relevant category to the article yourself, or just add an indication of whether they're still alive next to their name above and I'll add the category to the article. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 05:57, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

David Sears is alive. I've added the category. - mspete93 12:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 14:55, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Fernando Alonso - Peer review

Hi, I've asked for a peer review on Fernando Alonso. Please feel free to review the article and edit it appropriately. Sultanofhyd 16:25, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I see the Controversies section is still there. I propose deleting that section.  Dr. Loosmark  17:10, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with it as long as it respects WP:NPOV. And there seems to be a consensus reached in the talk page to add a controversies section to other drivers' articles instead of deleting it in this one. We can discuss this further however, in the peer review discussion page. Sultanofhyd 16:19, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Lucas Di Grassi

There is a discussion at Talk:Lucas_Di_Grassi#Capitalisation about whether or not the "D" should be capitalised. Please add any views you may have. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 21:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

FYI (for those not watching the page), the consensus was to move the page to Lucas di Grassi. A move request has been submitted. DH85868993 (talk) 21:30, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Ferrari 412T

I propose splitting the Ferrari 412T article into 412T1 which raced in 1994 and the 412T2 which raced in 1995. Two quite different cars IMO.  Dr. Loosmark  17:33, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

No objection from me, but I'm presuming you've read the talk page discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 20:34, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Lotus 93T, Lotus 94T

I have created stubs for the Lotus 93T and Lotus 94T. If anybody has more detailed info please expand and improve the articles.  Dr. Loosmark  16:55, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

And Lotus 92. DH85868993 (talk) 02:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Alert: Grand Prix 2 peer review

I've put Grand Prix 2, the 1996 F1 game simulation, on a WP:VideoGames peer review here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Peer review/Grand Prix 2 .

Cheers, Guroadrunner (talk) 06:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

FIRST Racing

It has been proposed to move FIRST Racing to First Racing per MOS:TM and WP:ALLCAPS, on the basis that FIRST Racing says "FIRST Racing (sometimes written as First Racing)...". Is that correct? I think I've only ever seen it as "FIRST". Please add any views you may have at Talk:First Racing. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 01:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The article has been moved. DH85868993 (talk) 09:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Wolfgang von Trips

I have requested that the article Wolfgang Graf Berghe von Trips be moved to Wolfgang von Trips, as the latter is the most common rendition of his name. Please make any comments you have on the article's talk page.--Midgrid(talk) 21:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The article has been moved.--Midgrid(talk) 20:19, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Removal of notes sections

I'm planning on going through all F1 race reports and removing the notes sections from them. These have long been a pet-hate of mine, and WP:TRIVIA states "Avoid creating lists of miscellaneous information." I've tolerated them up to now in race reports that otherwise hold little content (some content being better than nothing), but their presence seems to lend them credibility and results in them being introduced to more mature articles by editors acting in good faith.

Notes sections were first introduced to record fastest lap details when the first race reports were created on Wikipedia. Since then, we've introduced an infobox where this particular bit of information is better suited to. The notes section has however grown, and as well as potentially useful information about a race, generally it also contains many minor facts.

My plan is to take any major information and rewrite it as prose. I need to establish a consensus what to do with other information - does the last points details for a journeyman driver really belong in a race report? Fair enough stating that a world champion scored his last WC points in the race, but would a minor driver have this fact included in the race report proper? "Last win for XYZ combination" (e.g. "Driver for Team" or "Team with Engine partner") I'm planning to drop altogether unless there's real significance. Ditto facts where it was "Last something for X years".

Lap leaders raw data is often irrelevant, with many lead changes occurring only during the pit-stop shuffle. I propose that a quick sentence or two describing kosher lead changes would suffice.

Given that there's a fair amount of effort involved in doing this, I'd rather any objections (or other comments) are raised now, before I make the changes. AlexJ (talk) 17:56, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree all. And willling to help. --Falcadore (talk) 20:42, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Also agree. Scrap some of the trivial "first sixth place for Heidfeld with his new helmet" stuff and blend the first win / first podium / first points details into the text. Lap leaders not really important if the report is properly written. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree on everything save for the lap leaders. Personally I wouldn't mind having that info in the infobox.  Dr. Loosmark  20:56, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I share Loosmark's opinion on the lap leaders. This information, although it can be included in the race report section, is much easier to understand if it is also displayed in statistical form, and it could make a good addition to the infobox.--Midgrid(talk) 21:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
60 seasons and anything up to 18 races per season? That's several hundred races. Good luck to you :) --Redrose64 (talk) 21:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
As I wrote last time this issue was discussed, I actually like having milestones such as first/last/50th/100th race/points/podium/pole/win/fastest lap and lap leaders extracted into a separate section, so I don't have to read through the whole race report to find out that information. I agree about scrapping the trivial "first sixth place for Heidfeld with his new helmet" stuff. Here are a couple of other related earlier discussions: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Formula_One/Archive_10#Race_report_notes, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Formula_One/Archive_11#Infobox_issue_-_lap_leaders. DH85868993 (talk) 22:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Whoops, missed that discussion during my short 'sabbatical' from Wikipedia, I didn't realise that the topic had been brought up so recently. Anyway, my preference (and hence willingness to carry out the edits) is for the complete removal of the notes section. Compromise doesn't seem to have got us anywhere so far, meaningless stuff just ends up creeping back into these kinds of sections. There's the issue of what to include, what to exclude and the much bigger issue that these sections never get past FAC, meaning that our house style would need to differ depending on whether it's a featured article or not, a position that's not really tenable.
(Note by AlexJ: I've moved this part of the discussion about Lap leaders into a separate section for clarity and ease-of-reading)
Just because there are many articles and it may be hard, is not a reason to not do it :), as preparation I've added the trivia tag to all 2009 races to help highlight the issue if someone comments they can be directed here to aid consensus. --Falcadore (talk) 23:13, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd really like to get a consensus so I can make a start on this. Just to recap, the current position is that trivial information is removed altogether, important milestones are incorporated into the article and the lap leaders will likely become a field in the infobox (or possibly stand-alone in the article). Is that acceptable to those that originally expressed objections? AlexJ (talk) 15:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

That's fine by me!--Midgrid(talk) 16:08, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Me too :) Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
AlexJ could you please give an example on what you plan to do for example on this article: 1991 German Grand Prix. What goes away and what will be incorporated into the article? Or this one: 1991 Japanese Grand Prix will the info that Piquet had to start from back of the grid be included?  Dr. Loosmark  18:15, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, most of '91 Germany notes are actually standalone sentences that would fit in a race report...
Pole position: Nigel Mansell - 1:37.087 - Delete, as already in infobox
Fastest lap: Riccardo Patrese - 1:43.569 on lap 35 - Delete, as already in infobox
Pre-qualifying was reshaped following the mid season point. Jordan, Dallara and Modena (Lambo) were all removed from pre-qualifying as they had performed better than teams allowed in qualifying proper. AGS, Footwork and Brabham all slipped into pre-qualifying. - Move to Practice & Quali section of race report
Saturo Nakajima announced his decision to retire from F1 at the end of the season. - Undecided. Background maybe if it was announced prior to race weekend
German driver Michael Bartels stood in for Johnny Herbert but failed to qualify - Driver changes belong in background section
Alex Caffi returned to the Footwork team replacing Stefan Johansson. Caffi had threatened legal action should his wish not be granted. - Again background
Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost were again embroiled in controversy, attempting to overtake Senna, Prost felt the Brazilian baulked him and left him with no choice but to go up the escape road where Prost stalled. Prost controversially claimed after the race "If I catch him in that position again I will push him out, that is for sure!" - Race detail, belongs in race report
Senna ran out of fuel when 4th and stopped with one lap left ironically in the same spot where Prost stalled. - As does this
The 1991 German Grand Prix was the first Grand Prix under a unified Germany. German Reunification had occurred on October 3 1990, 3 months and 3 days after the previous Grand Prix. - Move to background section
As for Japan '91...
This was the last points finish for the Brabham team. - Would try and include this in the race report perhaps as "Martin Brundle finished in fifth position to get two wc points. This was the last time a Brabham car would score wc points", rationale is that Brabham were a major team in F1, so this is quite significant (compared to say someone like Super Aguri getting their last points)
The Coloni team returned to racing and signed Japanese driver Naoki Hattori, replacing Pedro Chaves, who quit the team after the Portuguese Grand Prix. However, Hattori failed to pre-qualify on his debut run. - Most of this goes to background section
Ayrton Senna won his third and final driver's world championship after Nigel Mansell retired from the race on lap 9. - You can probably guess the fate of this one.
This was Gerhard Berger's only victory in 1991. - As a standalone point, this isn't really interesting, but I'd still probably work it into the race report.
Nelson Piquet qualified 10th but started from the back of the grid due to repairs. - Asterisked from the classification table.
Generally, that kinda stuff's pretty easy to do, as most it can go in the main article body with only minor modifications. Don't worry, this kind of useful information won't be lost. AlexJ (talk) 23:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. I now join others in supporting the planned changes.  Dr. Loosmark  23:55, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Sounds good. --Falcadore (talk) 18:19, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm happy with that. DH85868993 (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Likewise. Cs-wolves(talk) 13:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Lap leaders

Note by AlexJ: I've broken this part of the Notes/Trivia discussion into a separate section for clarity and ease-of-reading

I realise a few have expressed a preference for a lap leader section to be kept, I'll demonstrate a possible solution to keeping that outside of a notes section shortly. That's about as much of a compromise as I'd be willing to make however. AlexJ (talk) 22:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd go along with a lap leader stats field in the infobox. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:42, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Yep, same here. Cs-wolves(talk) 22:58, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
It still needs a bit of work, but essentially this would be my suggestion for displaying the lap leaders:

To go at the end of the article, after the classifications/before championship table (or before both, or after both?) Thoughts? AlexJ (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Personally I would rather have it as text in the infobox:
Hill Laps 1-39
Alesi Laps 40-42
Hill Laps 43-69
It isn't too clear in diagram form in terms of specific laps. Just my opinion. Obviously it can be done better in the infobox than how I've just done it. - mspete93 17:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm also not hugely in favour of the diagram. Also note that the two textual representations, i.e.:
Hill 66 (1-39, 43-69), Alesi 3 (40-42)
Hill Laps 1-39
Alesi Laps 40-42
Hill Laps 43-69
each have advantages and disadvantages. The first format tells you how many laps each driver led without the reader having to add it up for themselves, whereas the second format gives the reader a better picture of how the lead changed throughout the race. But note that the second fromat could become quite lengthy if there were many lead changes, e.g. the 1971 Italian Grand Prix where the lead changed pretty much every lap. DH85868993 (talk) 01:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The 1971 race had just over half what the 1965 race had. The lead changes of 1965 in both methods:
Stewart 43 (6, 8-9, 11-14, 16-17, 19-20, 22-24, 29-32, 37, 39, 41-43, 47-49, 52, 58-69, 72, 74-76), Clark 19 (1-2, 4, 7, 10, 18, 21, 27, 33-36, 38, 44, 46, 51, 53-54, 57), Hill 13 (3, 5, 25-26, 28, 40, 45, 50, 55-56, 70-71, 73), Surtees 1 (15)
Clark Laps 1-2
Hill Lap 3
Clark Lap 4
Hill Lap 5
Stewart Lap 6
Clark Lap 7
Stewart Laps 8-9
Clark Lap 10
Stewart Laps 11-14
Surtees Lap 15
Stewart Laps 16-17
Clark Lap 18
Stewart Laps 19-20
Clark Lap 21
Stewart Laps 22-24
Hill Laps 25-26
Clark Lap 27
Hill Lap 28
Stewart Laps 29-32
Clark Laps 33-36
Stewart Lap 37
Clark Lap 38
Stewart Lap 39
Hill Lap 40
Stewart Laps 41-43
Clark Lap 44
Hill Lap 45
Clark Lap 46
Stewart Laps 47-49
Hill Lap 50
Clark Lap 51
Stewart Lap 52
Clark Laps 53-54
Hill Laps 55-56
Clark Lap 57
Stewart Laps 58-69
Hill Laps 70-71
Stewart Lap 72
Hill Lap 73
Stewart Laps 74-76
Quite lengthy is an understatement! Cs-wolves(talk) 11:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
How would it look with AlexJ's stripey thing? --Redrose64 (talk) 11:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
How about a vertical timestrip, not dissimilar to this one (expect with laps in brackets in place of the years, natch)? That would allow the actual laps led to be displayed in text, gives an idea graphically of the total laps led (a lot of one colour means someone dominated the race) and being vertical could be included in the infobox, as an initially collapsed field to avoid much extra length on the infobox (see this page for an example - the field "Queen of 16 sovereign countries" has a show/hide button. AlexJ (talk) 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Here are two possible vertical designs, that show the specific lap data:

Rough ideas only, but do either of them appeal? AlexJ (talk) 19:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
How would they look for lots of lap leader changes, as per 1971 Italian GP mentioned above? --Redrose64 (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
(Yeah I know, I only did half the changes, but you get the idea). This is probably where the staggered left/right example gets an advantage over the one with the scale, as the length needed (to avoid text overlap) is much less. I still prefer the one with the scale at the side however - it seems much clearer, which is handy if the reader isn't too familiar with the subject. AlexJ (talk) 23:24, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

←Couldn't the scale go down the middle of the colours, then you would be able to stagger the drivers? They look good, how long does it take to create the longer ones? Schumi555 23:37, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

If you have the scale (whether left or centre), the "(Laps 1-2)" etc. text can probably be dispensed with. The one with all names right occupies less horizontal space, so could be side-positioned allowing space for descriptive text. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:46, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
AFAIK, it's not possible to have the scale overlap the bars, it's got to go at the side of the bars. The longer ones take about 15 minutes to do, the shorter ones probably could be done in two minutes. The garish colours can be toned down a little, I've got no preference as to whether to keep the Laps 1-2 text or not. An infobox example would be:
AlexJ (talk) 11:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Lapcharts are now live on the first four races of 2009; 2009 Australian Grand Prix, 2009 Malaysian Grand Prix 2009 Chinese Grand Prix and 2009 Bahrain Grand Prix. Any feedback is more than welcome - if we're happy with this, then I'll knock up some documentation so anyone can add these. AlexJ (talk) 21:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I'd probably like to see a "0" or "Start" (or maybe "1") at the bottom of the scale. DH85868993 (talk) 22:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Scale now begins at "0". AlexJ (talk) 23:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Is there a rationale for the colour choices? Button (the only driver on all four) is either green or yellow. I'd still drop the "(laps 1-xx)" stuff, because the scale at the left covers that. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I like the "Laps xx-yy" text, to save readers having to count along the scale for themselves. DH85868993 (talk) 22:19, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
No particular rationale for the colour choices; as it's still testing I just used ones that could be called by names. You can actually call any RGB value to use as a colour, but I'm not sure if we should standardize colour choices over a season or just use a combination of colours on each chart that looks aesthetically pleasing.
As for the laps xx-yy text, I see no harm in leaving them in, as the infobox itself is always going to be wider than the lapchart, even with the laps xx-yy text included. Removing the text would just add more whitespace. AlexJ (talk) 23:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Formula One sponsorship liveries (Former Teams)

I notice that about half(?) the content of Formula One sponsorship liveries has been split off as Formula One sponsorship liveries (Former Teams). Is there consensus for this change? If there is, I question the capitalisation of the new article's name; I think it should probably be Formula One sponsorship liveries (former teams). DH85868993 (talk) 22:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The total content seems somewhat lengthy for one article, so I'd support the split, but the capitalisation needs to be fixed. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Wow, this is trivial. Not seen this article before, does it really, an article about paint and stickers, really satisfy notability? Isn't this information better served split up into each team article? --Falcadore (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Start lights system

Noticed the following in the '96 Australia race report:

"The race was the first to use the new race-start system, still used in Formula 1 today. replacing the old red to green light system. Under the new system, 5 red lights would come on at one second intervals, starting after the last driver reached his grid box. There would then be a pre-determined pause, and then the 5 lights would go off simultaneously. In the event of the start needing to be aborted, the five lights will come on, however, instead of going out, three amber light will flash. All engines are stopped and the start resumes from the five minute point. If a single driver raises his hand to indicate that he can't start, the marshall for that row will wave a yellow flag, then after a few seconds, both the red and orange lights will extinguish and the green lights will come on to indicate another formation lap. This system was partially designed to try and eliminate some of the problems caused by drivers stalling on the grid, which in the past, had often led to start line crashes."

Is the bit I've highlighted correct? I seem to recall this being a much more recent introduction (I remember Martin Brundle in commentary asking "Who's done their homework on the new rules?" the first time it was used, and he was in a car in Australia '96 not the commentary box). AlexJ (talk) 23:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree: I believe these rules were introduced for the 2004 season, and from 1996 to 2003 the start would always be fully aborted, even if it happened more than once (as was the case at the 2003 Austrian Grand Prix).--Midgrid(talk) 21:27, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
That bolded rule was changed for 2005 season. But otherwise the starting light system (with no green lights at the start) became in effect for 1996. Also, I think the actual reason for the bolded change was that it was quicker to do it that way, and also that old system could easier lead to multiple aborted starts.BleuDXXXIV (talk) 08:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Mercedes GP article name

I have started a discussion here about the name of the Mercedes Grand Prix article, proposing it is moved to Mercedes GP. If there are no objections after 3 days I will go ahead and move it. - mspete93 18:35, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Page moved. - mspete93 20:29, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

BMW Sauber

We have a bit of a problem here. Although they are the Sauber team, they're still calling themselves BMW Sauber. How are we supposed to refer/link to them? What do we think? For example our C29 page is Sauber C29 - it is actually called the BMW Sauber C29.- mspete93 15:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

This is frustrating me, as well. From how things sound, the name change is stuck in paperwork? I'm basically winging it and not changing some article text in the most obvious articles pointing to Sauber but changing the wikilinks to BMW Sauber. I'll pathetically justify this as saying the people building the car are Sauber employees but it is being raced by BMW Sauber.
Perhaps the safest thing to do would be to <!-- --> the 2010 section from the Sauber article, say instead to go to the BMW Sauber page, and when a name change happens just unhide it, copy over all the 2010 existing info from the BMW Sauber article, show a "please see..." link on that page instead, and make note on the Sauber page of the name technicality until X date.
A number of other language Wikipedias have chopped anything like this from the BMW Sauber page and are exclusively using the Sauber article for everything. Actually the Japanese wiki's page claims there are technicalities left and right since 'BMW Sauber' didn't sign Concorde and something else like the manufacturer name being permitted to be dropped if not actually involved with the hardware of the car, saying a comparison would be "Toyota Williams-Cosworth" this season or last year "Honda Brawn GP Mercedes".
It could be worse. If VW ever buys in it could be BMW-Sauber Audi Ferrari. daTheisen(talk) 15:09, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Numbering of races

At Talk:2009 German Grand Prix an editor has questioned the inclusion of the "race number" as part of the Official Name in the infobox. My initial response there was that this is WP:F1 convention. However, on doing a bit of checking, I couldn't find it written down anywhere, and although we've done it consistently for the last 2 (3?) seasons, before that, it's a bit random. So I thought I'd check whether there's consensus that it is convention (in which case I'll document it on the Conventions page. DH85868993 (talk) 02:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why there would be any objection to this providing it's accurate. I think we should be including it as a matter of course. Bretonbanquet (talk) 02:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
One of Formula One's in-house traditions. Most races of a sufficient age number themselves, the 86th running of the Indianapolis 500 etc, the Formula One races have used roman numerals for a long time, part of the strong Italian flavour the sport has always had. Its one of many parts of F1 that have always been there and never had cause to question. Like why the flags are the colours they are, what constitutes a lap record, etc etc dunno really they just always have. It sounds inadequate but the explanation of forty-fifty years old and probably buried somewhere. --Falcadore (talk) 06:17, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I've noticed in the last season or so that the official race names have dropped the use of the numerators and replaced them with the year. I don't know when this happened, exactly, as I only really noticed in the middle of the 2008 season. The official FIA website is non-committal as it just gives basic location details. The FOM website gives modern-style race names (e.g. 2008 Formula 1 Santander British Grand Prix) back to 2005, although how much of this is as it was at the time and how much is their usual selective revisionism I don't know. Prior to 2005 they just list them as "(Year) (Location) Grand Prix". Anyone with a Forix subscription or copies of Autocourse from the mid-naughties care to check, please? Pyrope 16:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Helpfully, FORIX seem to show numerators for some races and not others. For 2009, we have: "Gulf Air Bahrain Grand Prix", "53° Gran Premio de España Telefónica", "67e Grand Prix de Monaco", "ING Turkish Grand Prix", "Santander British Grand Prix", "Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland", "ING Magyar Nagydij", "80° Gran Premio Santander d'Italia" etc. Maybe it depends on the organisers. Other years show very similar patterns. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it's down to the individual race organisers, who these days may be influenced by sponsor's contracts. Rather than add Roman numbering (or any other numeric form) to the race articles willy-nilly, each individual instance will need verification that it was the actual name of the race which was used at the time, and not retrospectively. No way can I accept that Santander sponsored all 79 previous Italian GP. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
This is getting complicated. Sticking with the Italian Grand Prix in 2009 we have: FOM refer to it as "2009 Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia; the podium backdrop just used "Gran Premio Santander d'Italia"; Forix gives "80º Gran Premio Santander d'Italia"; other reliable websites just use "Gran Premio Santander d'Italia" with or without either 2009 or LXXX as a prefix; Monza themselves used "80º Gran Premio Santander d'Italia Formula 1 2009" (covering all their bases...); and the official program and post race interview set used "Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia 2009". Confused yet? Quite which of these is the "official" name... well. I think the closest we might get is the name printed on the front of the program, at least it would be verifiable (easily cited) and we can use that year to year to maintain consistency. Any thoughts? Pyrope 16:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
The design of the race programme is controlled by FOM, the commercial rights holders, and not the FIA or organizers of the race. I'd suggest that FOM have the least authority out of those three to declare their name 'official'. AlexJ (talk) 19:11, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Like I said Alex, we have to be sure that we can verify any name, not necessarily judge which of the many sources on offer is the "official" name. The FIA certainly does not choose the official name, they just sanction events held to their rules. That leaves the organisers and FOM and, to be frank, their names have been one and the same in recent times. Looking back through past programs reveals that the name printed on the front of the program also tends to be the one you see in race coverage, and in days gone by the program was the sole domain of the race promoter. Arguably FOM is the major racer promoter these days, and race organisers have to conform to their name formatting as part of their contract. I've been digging around in various archives of late and I have to say that, as far as I can see, the official use of Roman numerals died out in the late 1950s. What we need to sort out is where we can find reliable, citable, verifiable references for official names as they appeared in period. I agree that programs might not be 100% accurate, but they are at least a consistent source, from period, with a good degree of official standing. However, this does throw up some anomalies that I can't disprove, such as the 1963 Grand Prix d'Europe Monaco (not XXI Grand Prix Automobile de Monaco...) outside secondary sources. Some media outlets (e.g. Motor Sport under the editorship of WB) were usually (spot the big fat caveat) sticklers for reproducing race information from official sources, but others used colloquial names or their own concoctions of ersatz-official. Unfortunately my collection of dead tree 1950s/'60s/'70s Motor Sports are back in the UK and I haven't worked up the financial gumption to go digital yet. I'd be interested to see what a period race report stated. Pyrope 19:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I've gone digital and consequently have access to all the Motor Sport issues from 1924 to 1979 if it helps. Readro (talk) 22:09, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I've just had a look at 1950 as an example. Motor Sport doesn't use any numbers at all. Only two championship races get a full write up - the British (referred to as the R.A.C. Grand Prix de l'Europe) and the Swiss (referred to as the Grosser Preis der Schweiz). The others all got brief mentions in other sections. Consequently we get the Monaco Grand Prix, Indianapolis, Belgian Grand Prix, Grand Prix of the A.C.F. and the Monza Grand Prix. I shall check later years to see if the reporting gets more detailed. Readro (talk) 22:40, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
That actually proves my point nicely, the program cover for the 1950 British GP does indeed state that it was the Royal Automobile Club Grand Prix d'Europe. Incorporating The British Grand Prix. I'd look a couple of years later, once WB got Jenks properly set up as their traveling correspondent. Pyrope 00:59, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
As I recall, in the 1950s and 1960s, one race per season would be selected as the Grand Prix d'Europe as a sort-of special honour in addition to its "usual" title. In the 1970s, the term "Grand Prix d'Europe", or equivalent, took on its current meaning of "an extra race in a country that already has one". So, in those years when there were races at both Brand's Hatch and Silverstone, one would be the British GP, and the other the European. It was also done with Imola/Monza (before the San Marino GP was officially introduced); Donington/Silverstone; and more recently Hockenheim/Nurburgring. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:48, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

1984 Dallas Grand Prix

What's with that article? It looks like a complete mess on my screen.  Dr. Loosmark  16:35, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, which browser are you using? It renders fine in Firefox 3 and Safari 4. Pyrope 16:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I've checked in Firefox 3.0 (fine) and IE7 (not fine). It would appear that the three images at the start of the "Summary" section are causing IE7 to defer the positioning of the text which begins "Keke Rosberg of Finland survived ..." so that it appears alongside the first of those three images, ie just below the infobox. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I've repositioned the images. Looks OK (to me) in IE7 now. Can others please check using other browsers? Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 20:12, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Still same mess. I think it's this first line that does something: style="float:right; background:transparent;  Dr. Loosmark  20:23, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Without knowing what sort of a "mess" you are seeing and which browser you are using there isn't much we can do to help... Pyrope 23:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Try removing the line and doing a preview without saving the page and see if that fixes it. --Falcadore (talk) 08:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
It does.  Dr. Loosmark  15:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
I have tried a number of different things, including running IE6, IE7 and Firefox 3.0 on PC, and Safari 4.0, Firefox 3.0 and 3.5 on Mac, and I just can't get anything to reproduce what happened to you. Weird. Sorry I can't be more helpful... Pyrope 16:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The page does in fact contain some invalid wikicode. Right at the beginning, before the infobox, we have this:

{| style="float:right; background:transparent;"
<!--Table to prevent [edit] links becoming bunched (cf [[WP:BUNCH]])-->

which opens a table; but there is nothing later on to close the table (the |} is missing). Invalid wikicode might not give invalid HTML; but it might give unpredictable HTML (different behaviour in different browsers). Inspection of the page source (Ctrl-U in Firefox) shows that the number of <table> is balanced by the number of </table>; but one of the latter might be misplaced. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:35, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Replacement of links

There's been a spate recently of replacing links like this [[2007 British Grand Prix|British Grand Prix]] with instances of the {{F1 GP}} macro, e.g. {{F1 GP|2007|British}}. Is this a worthwhile pursuit? Whilst I don't object to the use of the {{F1 GP}} macro in new text, the replacement of existing links seems to me a retrograde step, since (imo) it makes the wikitext less comprehensible (and very slightly increases the time required to render the page). DH85868993 (talk) 08:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Some months ago I spotted cases of a user doing the opposite, but in a much less sensible fashion, ie replacing {{F1 GP|2007|British}} with [[2007]] [[British Grand Prix]]. I didn't revert, amend or comment at the time, nor note which articles nor the user (sorry) - mainly because I didn't know what the policy was (nb I did not take these edits as precedent and so I made no similar edits of my own). But I agree that policy needs to be laid down, so we can point those who are in breach in the right direction. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:53, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Redrose64, the practice you've outlined is something we spent quite a long time eradicating a while back. Linking to 2007 is utterly irrelevant, and linking to the generic British Grand Prix article is also not helpful since the desired topic is the 2007 British Grand Prix which is not reachable at all with this method. Any time you see anything like that, please revert it :)
The other method seems pointless to me - what exactly would the benefit be of switching to the {{F1 GP|2007|British}} set-up? All I see is extra work for no improvement, and making the wikitext less readable. Bretonbanquet (talk) 12:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Formula One constructors

Prompted by a discussion at Template talk:Formula One constructors, it's noted that there's currently some inconsistency between Template:Formula One constructors, List of Formula One constructors and Category:Formula One constructors, specifically in relation to "fringe" constructors, e.g.

  • Constructors who only participated in the WDC during the "Formula 2" years (1952-53), e.g. AFM, Aston Butterworth, EMW, etc
  • Constructors whose only participations in the WDC were in the Indianapolis 500 from 1950-60, e.g. Adams, Bromme, Christensen, etc
  • Constructors who only participated in non-WDC F1 races, e.g. Delahaye
  • Companies who built F1 cars which never raced (Cosworth, DAMS, Dome, First)


I think we need to agree a common definition for inclusion as a "Formula One constructor" and apply it to the template, list and category. Discuss! DH85868993 (talk) 02:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

My personal preference is to include them all, but separate out the "Indianapolis 500" constructors (as is currently done in the list and category). DH85868993 (talk) 02:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
As Formula One refer to Formula One and not to '52/'53 Formula Two perhaps these need to be annotated. Constructors, as the vehicle builders, does refer pretty much specifically to the cars, and the '52/'53 cars were specifically not Formula One cars, so perhaps they need to be annotated in the same way as the Indycars are, since essentially it is the same reason. And how are 1960s German Grand Prix F2 cars counted? And how far away from the World Drivers Championship do we drift? British Formula One Series? South African F1 series? One off GPs at many different places, including the 1952 Australian Grand Prix, run to F1 regs with a variety of different constructors present? --Falcadore (talk) 02:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
All valid points/questions. It probably would be simpler (more sensible?) to limit the list/category/template to those constructors who participated in WDC events (in the same way that List of Formula One drivers actually only lists WDC drivers) - at they very least it would give us a constrained and well-defined set of races to consider. I'm not averse to separating out the 1952/53 and/or 1960s F2 constructors. DH85868993 (talk) 09:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
If the name of a list, category or template explicitly includes the words "Formula One", then it cannot, by definition, cover any other formula, whether or not cars built to these formulae were permitted to compete in certain WDC events. I am aware that the '52/53 Championships had no F1 entrants: perhaps the list/cat/tmplt need renaming to accurately reflect the permitted content. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
In 52/53, the championship was the World Drivers Championship. It was only in 1981 that the Formula One World Championship started. We should either have a World Championship template with the F2 and Indy 500 constructors or a Formula One template with neither. It still irks me that we have a 1952 Formula One season when the article is about F2. The championship wasn't specifically F1 until 1981. Readro (talk) 10:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
How about re-naming the template, list and category by replacing 'Formula One' with 'WDC'? e.g. List of WDC constructors etc. That way the Formula 2 seasons, and Indy 500 races can still be included in the articles, but the non-WDC races would not be - which both the list and category seem to be doing already. Having 'competed in a WDC race' would be a much stricter criterion for inclusion than 'competed in a Formula One race' as there are many one off F1 races that were not part of the WDC, as already mentioned. Schumi555 11:48, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
A problem I can foresee is that the rules for 1981 specifically and verifiably state that the WDC and WCC ceased at the end of 1980 and were replaced by the new Formula One championships. History has combined them together for convenience but the reality is that we have two separate championships here. This problem needs addressing because we have all the earlier seasons being referred to as "19xx Formula One season", which was never true. Most seasons ran to Formula One rules but they didn't have to be, as was the case in 1952 and 1953, as well as the Indy 500. The Indy 500 was most certainly never a Formula One race. Some other races allowed F2 entrants to bolster the numbers. The WikiProject refers to Formula One, which excludes the 1952 and 1953 seasons! It is clear that the ground upon which Grand Prix racing is covered on Wikipedia is a bit shakey. We need to bite the bullet and secure the foundations in order that we can improve the accuracy and reliability of the project. I have a four point plan.
  • Rename 1950-1980 articles as 19xx FIA World Championship season.
  • Rename 1981 onwards articles as xxxx Formula One World Championship season.
  • Split Formula One to keep the formula in the existing article and the championship in Formula One World Championship, stating that it used to be just the World Championship.
  • Adjust lists of statistics to refer to the FIA World Championship.
Opinions please. Readro (talk) 12:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The reason all those earlier articles are titled 19xx Formula One season, is because the article includes coverage of all Formula One races in each year, not just the World Championship. So if we re-name the articles, we have to strip out the non-WDC races, and presumably create new articles to stick that coverage. The F1 season articles are fine as they are. --Falcadore (talk) 13:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Strip out all of the Formula Two races from the 1952 and 1953 season articles then. Readro (talk) 13:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to throw in WP:COMMONNAME. In the public consciousness "Formula One" is the World Championship that started in 1950 and is still going today. Ok, so we know that this is wrong on a whole heap of levels, but that is how it is seen. Even most specialist websites, books, journals, whatever, include 1952 and 1953 in reckoning "Formula One" statistics. I realise this irks some with a desire to be precise, but we are a general interest encyclopedia that must be intelligible to and navigable by a non-specialist. I think drawing too great a distinction between pre- and post-1980 championships would be counterproductive. Pyrope 13:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
A lot of people think a Koala is a bear, but we don't report it as such. We have a duty to be accurate. We cannot have an article called 1952 Formula One season that is full of Formula Two races instead! Readro (talk) 13:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't arguing that we should, but we certainly shouldn't hive those races off from the history thread of what is considered "Formula One" these days. I just want us to maintain a structure and grouping system that keeps those races firmly located with F1, rather than Jonathan Palmer's new enterprise. In terms of prestige and notability, although the races were run to F2 rules, they certainly rank up there with F1 in other years. Having pages renamed "XXXX World Championship season" excludes non-WDC events, some of which were important in understanding the dynamic of a season's competition, and in times past there were many good drivers who actually chose not to contest WDC events because they clashed with other prestigious race meetings. On the other hand, having "XXXX Formula One season" means that F2 and Indy (and Intercontinental Formula races in 1961) are misplaced. I think that keeping all of these together gives a much better overview of top-level formula racing in any one year, rather than waxing pedantic and creating half a dozen bitty little articles. However, we need a compromise position that allows this. Pyrope 14:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
And some of those '52/'53 races were also F1 races, rather than F2.
But we've drifted some way from the original point here haven't we? What to do with those pesky Constructor related articles. --Falcadore (talk) 15:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it matters that the conversation has drifted. The constructor list is just a symptom of a bigger problem. Also, I don't see why having XXXX World Championship season excludes non-championship events; you can have non-championship races during a championship season. Readro (talk) 16:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Well OK then - you can have non-championship races during a championship season, but it would be less accurate and would still suggest some races would have to be removed. Some '50s F1 races had very little to no connection at all with the world championship and wouldn't neccessarily go with a Championship label. The F1 regulations were the only common denominator. --Falcadore (talk) 20:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Except that the F1 regulations were not the only common denominator - none of the 1952 or 1953 championship races were run to F1 regs (they were all F2); and the Indianapolis 500 counted towards the championship every year from 1950 to 1960. Further, several championship GP races admitted both F1 and F2 cars to compete against each other - the 1960 Italian Grand Prix for example, had 6 F2 cars, driven by von Trips, Herrmann, Barth, Drogo, Gamble and Wilson. There were other similar instances: 1959 British Grand Prix; 1959 Monaco Grand Prix; 1958 Moroccan Grand Prix etc. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:35, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

True, it's back to where we started, but the point is, World Championship isn't an improvement. --Falcadore (talk) 20:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
On the topic of the constructors list/template/category, I'd be happy with "Formula One World Championship constructors", on the basis that "Formula One World Championship" is the current name for the WDC. As for the season articles, I think the current names (i.e. "xxxx Formula One season") are best, for the reasons outlined by Pyrope. DH85868993 (talk) 13:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
But we have 1952 Formula One season for a Formula Two season! This is completely illogical. As a compromise, how about "xxxx Grand Prix season" until 1980 with "xxxx Formula One season" starting in 1981? Readro (talk) 13:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Formula One Indoor Trophy

Do we consider the Formula One Indoor Trophy events held from 1988-1996 to be "Formula One races"? If so, we'll probably need to change a few statements around the place identifying the 1983 Race of Champions as the last non-championship F1 race. It also affects whether or not the First Racing F1 car ever "competed in a Formula One race" (noting that it competed in the 1988 Formula One Indoor Trophy). DH85868993 (talk) 02:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Were they races or side-by-side matched sprints? The answer to that question, could be your answer. --Falcadore (talk) 02:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
They weren't races, they were just sprints. Readro (talk) 10:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Jordan nationality

An IP editor is insisting there is dispute over Jordan's nationality based on a photo from the 2001 French Grand Prix showing a British flag above the Jordan pit - see Talk:Jordan_Grand_Prix#Jordan_a_British_or_an_Irish_team. Does anyone have a reliable source to hand to confirm that Jordan competed under an Irish licence? Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 13:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I've got a nagging feeling they may have done both - British early on, then Irish later? 4u1e (talk) 13:42, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
None of the sources I've got to hand offer a view on official nationality of teams (indeed I've just noticed Autocourse for that period doesn't even list the constructors championship results at the end of the season. Weird.) 4u1e (talk) 13:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
From the horse's mouth:

When I got to the podium, someone said they did not have the Irish national anthem – which was a major cock-up on the part of Formula One Management because Jordan was an Irish-registered team. Our first win was to be marked with the wrong national anthem. This was outrageous.

— Eddie Jordan, The day EJ beat them all
The original article has been taken off, but there is an archive version here. AlexJ (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Silverstone Arena circuit

Silverstone has confirmed that it will use the new Arena circuit configuration for this year's Grand Prix. [1] I can't find a track map of this layout - please can someone who knows how to do this sort of thing make one?--Midgrid(talk) 14:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

how to rename a file in commons?

I mean this one: [2]. The car on the pic is the B190B.  Dr. Loosmark  17:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

You need to put a template on the image description page on Commons, and state that you wish to "correct a misleading name into accurate one" . An admin will then move the file. Full instructions here AlexJ (talk) 18:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks.  Dr. Loosmark  18:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

2012 Formula One season

2012 Formula One season has been recreated. Do we want to delete it again (and if so, can it be speedied)? DH85868993 (talk) 15:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Delete, and don't recreate until the end of the year. There's nothing there yet, and when there is anything it'll all be very speculative. - mspete93 16:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Delete. Even contracts that far ahead can (and will) be broken. 4u1e (talk) 17:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I tried speedying it under CSD A1, the best fitting crierion I thought, but that has been removed. Could someone with a little more experience try please. Schumi555 21:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
While writing my previous comment, the article has been redirected to Formula One - which is better. Schumi555 21:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

articles about f1 cars

Lately I have done some work in that area mainly making new stubs and also added results tables. Out of curiosity I also read many of the other articles and IMO many of them aren't too reliable. Take for example the McLaren MP4/8 article, at some point one can read this: "After first driving the car Senna suggested to the engine builder Mauro Forghieri that it would be better with a less brutal top end and a much fatter mid-range. The changes were made and while the engine lost 25hp up top, it gained 60hp all round, making the modified MP4/8 more drivable and much faster than before and even faster than the race version. The combination of the MP4/8 and the Lamborghini V12 also proved more stable and easier on tyres than the Ford powered race car. Senna and Häkkinen were reportedly very impressed with the car/engine combination, despite the engine's poor reliability record. Senna was so impressed that he wanted to use the McLaren Lamborghini combination for the last half of 1993. He believed that regardless of reliability, his car would at least be as fast or even faster than both Williams and Benetton who he was struggling to keep up with in races using the customer spec Ford V8." I'm not saying all this isn't true but hmm it looks a bit weird that an engine could gain 60hp just like that. And a heavy and more powerful V12 easier on tyres than the V8? Also I doubt very much that Senna really thought that the MP4/8 powered with the Lamborhini engine would be "at least as fast as the Williams". Wasn't the FW15C like light years ahead of everybody? Anyway for now I added the citation needed thing.  Dr. Loosmark  13:28, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Although it's possible to build a 3.5 litre V12 that is the same weight as a 3.5 litre V8, a difference in dead weight has much less effect on tyre wear than a difference in engine power or torque. It's possible to build a 3.5 litre V12 that has the same power as a 3.5 litre V8, but the power and torque curves for each revolution will be smoother, since the cranks are spaced at 60° on a V12 but 90° on a V8 (six "bangs" per rev as opposed to four). Although the V12 will produce (12 / 8 = 1.5) times as many power impulses, for the same total power output, each impulse will be (8 / 12) the strength, so there is less tyre wear. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Well if a V12 engine can be built with the same weight as a V8 and a better power and torque then whats the point of the building a V8 anyway? What I remember from the early 90s is that the V12 Ferraris were less drivable than the lighter Ford V8.  Dr. Loosmark  14:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I didn't say better power and torque, I said smoother. But there are many factors to take into account when considering the drivability of the car. If the cylinder configuration were the only factor, everybody would use the same (they are all using V8s at the moment, because the regs won't let them use anything else) - but way back in 1989-90, when Turbos had just become illegal, you could find V8, V10 and V12 on the same grid, and back in the paddock there was another configuration (does anybody remember the Life W12?). --Redrose64 (talk) 14:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
And what exactly is the difference between better and smoother?  Dr. Loosmark  14:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The engine might have enough power to pull a Chieftain tank backwards but be rough as hell. It might be smooth as silk but weak as a kitten. Perm any two from four. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:09, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Ok. I see now what mean, better in an absolute sense. Still my initial point was that i find not very believable that in 93 Lamborghini would manage to build an engine which would be significantly better than the Ford V8, something that even Ferrari with all their experience with the V12 wasn't able to do back then. And couldn't they figure out themselves that their engine was too brutal and they needed to sac some top end power for drivability? Forghieri was a very experienced engineer. Not to even mention that the Lamborghini V12 would have to be so much better than the Renault V10 to close the gap and overtake the Williams' FW15C.  Dr. Loosmark  15:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

From what I recall of the year, the McLaren was closing in on Williams by the end of the year, and the testing of the V12 (under Chrysler badges) did show an improvement as a whole package over the Ford engine. All other things being equal, you'd expect a V12 to be heavier and more powerful than a V8, but all other things rarely are equal. 4u1e (talk) 19:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
P.S. I think the wording of the article as is is an exaggeration of the facts - if you find some refs, I suspect it'll tone down to: Senna was impressed with the Lambo/Chrysler V12 and thought it could form the basis of a competitive package, especially bearing in mind that McLaren didn't have lead customer status with the Ford unit. I'm pretty sure it was only the last couple of races they might have used the V12 for, not half the season. 4u1e (talk) 19:28, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much was McLaren really closing on Williams in 1993, IMO it was more that 1) the last two races were on "drivers" circuits: a wet race in Suzuka and the street circuit at Adelaide where Senna made a difference a little bit 2) after winning the title Prost was racing more conservative. Still if one checks the FLs in those races the Williams was way ahead. I agree with your other comment, Senna probably made a positive comment about the Lamborghini engine and/or that it would be nice to try it in a race or something similar but not that they could be ahead of the Williams. Anyway for now I will leave the article as is just in case somebody manages to source Senna's alleged comments.  Dr. Loosmark  12:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Scuderia Ferrari article

cross-posted from Talk:2010 Formula One season:

I'd like to start a major re-write of said article. I'm willing to get stuck in and do a lot of work myself, but first I wanted to run my ideas past you lot. The main problem is the excessive detail about recent races. Instead of a few hundred words per decade, there are in some cases hundreds of words about individual races in 2008 and 2009. Can we agree that this is unsuitable? It doesn't give the story of Scuderia Ferrari, just overwhelms the reader with information. There's a general point here concerning repetition of race information. My thoughts would be that a race page would be about what happened in that race, team pages would give an overview of the teams performance over each season. Please see the talk page, here. thanks, Tubefurnace (talk) 19:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
WP:RECENTISM personified. Severe reduction is not a problem. --Falcadore (talk) 00:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Is Scuderia Ferrari a constructor? Nowadays you'd probably say Scuderia Ferrrari is both the constructor and entrant of Ferrari cars in Formula One, I can see that. But in the 1960s things were less clear, with the NART entries and such. Who was the constructor of John Surtees' car for the 1964 US Grand Prix, was it 'Scuderia Ferrari' or simply 'Ferrari'? I'd tend to say "Ferrari", but is that right? And in that case can we really say that Scuderia Ferrari has won 16 Constructors' Championships - do we really mean Ferrari won the constructors championships (admittedly MOST of their points were scored by the works team)? I can see a few places where a definitive answer to these questions is needed. Thanks in anticipation of some answers.Tubefurnace (talk) 20:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

There was much less separation between the race team and the road car manufacturer back then though. So certainly I think the stat can stand. --Falcadore (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I heard it said that Enzo Ferrari cared about nothing except winning the next race, and that the road cars were sold merely to provide funding for the racing team. Thus, the two were inextricably linked. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't see that the close links between the Scuderia Ferrari race team and the road car manufacture company are relevant here. My, admittedly pedantic, point is, hasn't Scuderia Ferrari always just been a race team, whether it was entering Alfa Romeo 158s made by Alfa Romeo or Ferrari 312Ts made by Ferrari or whatever. Any constructors points, championhsips etc, go to the constructor, not the entrant. Nowadays all entrants have to be constructors, but in the 1950s to 1970s you had multiple entrants using the cars from one constructor.Tubefurnace (talk) 12:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
The Scuderia has always taken care of all aspects of the racing side of Ferrari's organisation, and that includes building the race cars. As others have said, as far as the old man was concerned there was no distinction. The same is not true of places like Lotus, where the road car and racing car manufacturing sides of things were deliberately distinct entities. Pyrope 13:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi all - long absence now over lol
agreed, IMO the format should adopt the old style of :-
Topic XXX
Main article XXXX
Second point, the name, complete history from the Ferrari website has a clear view that the full name has been in use during the times you mention - it tells us that the car was a 156 F1-63
Chaosdruid (talk) 21:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Um, no. Where does it say that? I see a car listed in the timeline as a 156 F1-63, but that certainly doesn't mean that the name has been in use since then. Ferrari are absolute [rascals] for retrospective nomenclature. Read the contemporary reports and get back to us. Pyrope 01:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Wasn't the car in question actually a Ferrari 158? That wasn't my question any way. My question was, was the car built by "Ferrari" and entered by Scuderia Ferrari in 1964 rounds 1-8, then entered by NART in rounds 9-10? That's my reading of the situation. The entitity called Scuderia Ferrari, which is a racing team, not a constructor, had no involvement in the last two races of 1964, did it? Unless you class the Scuderia Ferrari of 1964 as a constructor, but have we got any evidence for doing that?Tubefurnace (talk) 12:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I've dog out my Steve Small book again (I'll not give a full citation, see earlier on this page). For Ferrari in 1964, he shows three car/engine combinations (which I believe were all the same chassis but with three different engines, hence three model numbers), being shown as:
  • 1.5 Ferrari 156 V6
  • 1.5 Ferrari 158 V8
  • 1.5 Ferrari 1512 V12
He also shows four drivers and two entrants, details (with car type numbers applicable) are:
Entrant: Scuderia Ferrari SpA SEFAC
  • Monaco - Lorenzo Bandini 156; John Surtees 158 (156 in practice).
  • Dutch - Bandini 158 (156 in practice); Surtees 158.
  • Belgian - Bandini & Surtees 158.
  • French - Bandini & Surtees 158.
  • British - Bandini 156; Surtees 158 (156 in practice).
  • German - Bandini 156; Surtees 158.
  • Austrian - Bandini 156; Surtees 158.
  • Italian - Bandini 158 (156 and 1512 in practice); Surtees 158; Ludovico Scarfiotti 156.
Entrant: North American Racing Team
  • United States - Bandini 1512 (156 in practice); Surtees 158 (156 and 1512 in practice); Pedro Rodriguez 156.
  • Mexican - Bandini 1512; Surtees 158.
--Redrose64 (talk) 15:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I've got Alan Henry's book "Ferrari The Grand Prix Cars" and that's in agreement with what you've said.Tubefurnace (talk) 13:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
So now we definitively know the entrant and the car used by Surtees in the 1964 US Grand Prix. Sorry I didn't mean to question that. Who was the constructor?Tubefurnace (talk) 13:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget that it's the constructors' championship,not the teams' championship. It doesn't matter who entered the car, only who was recorded as the constructor. NART's points go to Ferrari, just as Larousse's 1990(?) points went to Lola and points scored by privateer Brabhams in the 1960s counted towards Brabham's championship positions. 4u1e (talk) 21:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

What about Torro Rosso then? Were they constructors?  Dr. Loosmark  22:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Points go to a chassis-engine combination. For example privateer Brabhams using BRM engines instead of the Coventry-Climax four pot did not contribute towards the points scored by the Motor Racing Developments team, only those scored by other Climax powered Brabhams.
In the early 80's Tyrrell only had enough money to buy Renault Turbo for one of the teams two cars. Tyrrell-Ford was scored separately in the constructors to Tyrrell-Renault.
Hmm, so have "Williams" technically ever won a constructors championship then? Or was it Williams Cosworh, Williams Honda and Williams Renault? Am I opening a can of worms here?.... Tubefurnace (talk) 12:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
No, no can of worms. The sporting regulations are quite clear. The WCC title goes to the "constructor of the chassis of the winning make", the "make" being the particular combination of chassis and engine. Pyrope 13:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Toro Rossos are powered by Ferrari engines, Red Bull's by Renault. At best you could refer to Toro Rossos as Red Bull-Ferraris but the points would still be scored seprately. --Falcadore (talk) 22:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I think they got around it by having the cars for both teams designed (and built, or partly built?) by a third party (Red Bull Technology?). Hence Red Bull-Renault and STR-Ferrari, but Falcadore is right, they would be different constructors anyway. 4u1e (talk) 06:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Yeah I don't see a problem in the modern age, there are no true customer cars any more, so all entrants are constructors.Tubefurnace (talk) 12:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Ahem, Dallara? Although you're right, the modern compromise seems to be that although the cars are designed and built by Dallara they will no doubt be called HRTs (ugh!). Shame the FIA didn't take that view back in the early 1990s when they clobbered Larrousse for putting themselves down as the constructor of their Lolas. 4u1e (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that is a little messy, but I presume HRT is counted as a constructor on the basis that they've just subcontracted their design and manufacture to Dallara. I hadn't heard of the Larrousse Lola story, an intriguing one which suggests the FIA has at times been at least as confused as me.Tubefurnace (talk) 13:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
4u1e said "Don't forget that it's the constructors' championship,not the teams' championship." Exactly. But the constructor is surely "Ferrari", not Scuderia Ferrari, that's just the name of the entrant (isn't it). The Grand Prix Data Book, which is probably the best reference book around, lists the constructor as just "Ferrari", and in fact pages on wikipedia such List of Formula One World Constructors' Champions lists Ferrari as "Ferrari". I guess my problem is that we have a page for an entrant, Scuderia Ferrari, which says the entrant has 16 constructors championships. It's a pedantic point I realise, but that's not true, what we mean is that the associated constructor Ferrari has 16 constructors championships. The Ferrari website doesn't exactly seem clear on its nomenclautre, so that doesn't really help.Tubefurnace (talk) 12:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Like I said above, for Ferrari the distinction between race and road teams is fuzzy. The road cars are an offshoot from SEFAC, and it is SEFAC that has always built the race cars. Pyrope 13:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Pyrope, do you have a reference for the fact that SEFAC built the race cars, that would clarify things greatly.Tubefurnace (talk) 13:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Which is presumably what shows up in the entry lists. I don't think there's been any shift here, unlike Williams, where there have been two separate teams that (loosely) used that name or Renault, where the original effort was through Renault Sport, but the current one is a different organisation called Renault F1 (ex Benetton, ex Toleman). 4u1e (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
So I'm looking at The Grand Prix Data Book, which it must be said is quite an impressive and diligently put together tome. The constructor is given as "Ferrari", with the entrant for the works team being either "Scuderia Ferrari"(1950-1960), "Scuderia Ferrari SpA SEFAC" (1961-1989), "Scuderia Ferrari SpA" (1990-1996), and "Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro" (1997 onwards). The constructor is listed as "Ferrari". Unless we have a reliable reference to the contrary, I'd suggest that wikipedia pages should follow that nomenclature, which might need a few changes. There's still work to be done sorting out the Ferrari and Scuderia Ferrari pages themselves, but when it's over I think we should aim to clarify the situation a little better, however we do that. Tubefurnace (talk) 13:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
If the major issue is that we're incorrectly attributing the F1 achievements of the constructor "Ferrari" to the team "Scuderia Ferrari", then I think this can easily be solved by splitting the existing infobox in the Scuderia Ferrari article into two: a "Scuderia Ferrari" infobox describing the current team personnel, chassis, tyre supplier, etc, and a "Ferrari as a Formula One constructor" infobox containing the F1 statistics of the constructor "Ferrari" (including both works and privateer entries) - similar to what we already have in the Team Lotus and Tyrrell Racing articles. One point to note is that it's perfectly acceptable to describe "Ferrari"s F1 achievements in the "Scuderia Ferrari" article rather than the "Ferrari" article, if that's the most logical place to do it (which I believe it is). DH85868993 (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)