Talk:Thai alphabet

Unicode character U+0E5A ๚

Unicode character U+0E5A ๚ is not defined; googled it and found: 'THAI CHARACTER ANGKHANKHU' (U+0E5A) ... used in combination with U+0E30 to mark end of a verse. here Pawyilee (talk) 18:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I added it and other symbols to Thai_script#Other_symbols, based on information from Thai wiki pages. Wikky Horse (talk) 23:47, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

ฺBird's eye ๏ (Thai: ตาไก่, ta kài)

Obsolete bird's eye ๏ (Thai: ตาไก่, ta kài), officially called (ฟองมัน, fong man), formerly indicated paragraphs, but is now used for that purpose in poetry. I have an example from มติชน ฉบับประจำวันที่ 16-22 เมษายน พ.ศ. 2553 ปีที่ 30 บับที่ 1548 หน้าที่ 59 สุสัปดาห์

“

...... ๏ นายรักไพร่ไพร่พร้อม รักนาย มีศึกสู้จนตาย ..............ต่อแย้ง นายเบียนไพร่กระจาย...จากหมู่ นายบ่รักไพร่แกล้ง .......ล่อล้างผลาญนาย ฯ

”

--สมเด็จกรมพระยาเดชาดิศร th.wikisource

The end of the verse is marked as shown, not with the character ๚ --Pawyilee (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I did my best to cross reference some sources (official ones and Thai wikipedia) and have updated the wiki. Wikky Horse (talk) 02:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Nyaw

Alphabetic table entry for ญ หญิง yo ying (woman) lists Initial as y and Final as n. Next, Plosives (วรรค vargaḥ) Table lists ญ yá as nasal equivalent of palatal จ cà, and for the IAST value in square brackets [ca] and [ña]. The article does not say the IAST value is historical, and corresponds to Spanish ñ as in cañon, English canyon. In Thai and most of Isan, ny has separated into y- initial and -n terminal, but the historical value is preserved among the Nyaw people (Thai/Isan: ไทญ้อ, IPA: tʰɑj ɲɔː) .--15:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Live vs. dead syllables

I don't see any mention of the critical difference between

• live syllables คำเป็น that end either with a long vowel or short vowels ใ- ไ-; or liquid or nasal ง, ญ, ณ, น, ม, ย, ร, ล, ว, ฬ, and -อ
• dead syllables คำตาย that end all the rest, including short vowels ending in a glottal stop -ะ --Pawyilee (talk) 16:00, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

It makes a big difference in choice of tone markers, and for low class consonants, whether a dead syllable has a short or long vowel. Counting no marker as 0 and the rests as 1-4, only middle-class live consonants take all five tone markers 0-4; the rest use 0-2, 0-1 or only 0

• middle-class live syllables have 0 = even กง, 1 = low ก่ง, 2 = falling ก้ง , 3 = high ก๊ง, 4 = rising ก๋ง
• middle-class dead have 0 = low กัก, 2 = falling กั้ก, 3 = high กั๊ก, 1 & 4 not used
• high class live 0 = rising ขา, 1 = low ข่า, 2 = falling ข้า, 3 & 4 not used
• High class dead have 0 = low ขบ, 1-4 not used
• Low class live 0 = even คา, and shift 1&2 down to 1 = falling ค่า, 2 = high ค้า, 3 & 4 not used
• low class dead with short vowel, 0 = falling คะ, 1 = low ค่ะ 2-4 not used
• low class dead with long vowel, 0 = falling คาด, 1-4 not used

--Pawyilee (talk) 16:08, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Section diacritics has a complete explanation of the tone marking system. It makes a three way distinction of the case of no tone mark;

• long vowel or vowel plus sonorant: the "live" syllable (sonorant = liquid or nasal)
• long vowel plus plosive: "long dead" syllable
• short vowel at end or plus plosive: "short dead" syllable

−Woodstone (talk) 17:12, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

So it does. I have eye and browser trouble, and scanned right over it. Meanwhile, I found a Thai wiki that, while it has no name for the 0 tone marker, DOES name tones so marked as พื้นเสียง ground tone

พื้นเสียง คือ คำที่ไม่มีรูปวรรณยุกต์แต่มีเสียงวรรณยุกต์

1. คำเป็น คือ คำที่ประสมกับสระเสียงยาว หรือเสียงสั้นที่มีตัวสะกดในแม่ กง กน กม เกย และ เกอว เช่น มา กิน ข้าว ฯลฯ
2. คำตาย คือ คำที่ประสมกับสระเสียงสั้น หรอเสียงยาวที่มีตัวสะกดในแม่ กก กด กบ เช่น เด็ก นะ จาก ฯลฯ
3. คำตาย ผันได้ 3 คำ ใช้วรรณยุกต์ เอก โท จัตวา แบ่งออกเป็น 2 ชนิด ดังนี้

It also names the five tones

เสียงวรรณยุกต์ที่ใช้อยู่ในภาษาไทย มี 5 เสียง

1. เสียงสามัญ คือเสียงกลาง ๆ เช่น กา มา ทา เป็น ชน
2. เสียงเอก ก่า ข่า ป่า ดึก จมูก ตก หมด
3. เสียงโท เช่น ก้า ค่า ลาก พราก กลิ้ง สร้าง
4. เสียงตรี เช่น ก๊า ค้า ม้า ช้าง โน้ต มด
5. เสียงจัตวา เช่น ก๋า ขา หมา หลิว สวย หาม ปิ๋ว จิ๋ว

link I do not know the usual translation of พื้นเสียง tone ground'.--Pawyilee (talk) 13:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

"Base tone" would be my best guess. Wikky Horse (talk) 05:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

ฟ is used as an ending only in loanwords.

This is true. --Pawyilee (talk) 13:00, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

syllables

Why is ถนน transcribed as "tha-non" and not "thon-an"? Angry bee (talk) 06:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

There are some ambiguous cases concerning implied vowels, but generally if there are three consonants in a row, not starting with a cluster, the insertion is "a-o". Don't ask for logic, it's just a convention. −Woodstone (talk) 11:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

References

I think most will agree that this article is sorely in need of proper referencing. There's this paper from Journal of the International Phonetic Association to start with, but it doesn't seem like any library in Thailand carries it. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:46, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Move from Thai script to Thai alphabet

The article was previously renamed Thai script based on Talk:Thai alphabet/Archive 1#Thai script is not an alphabet. User:Kwamikagami today moved the page back to Thai alphabet because "we use 'alphabet' for the main segmental scripts; we should be consistent with the others". I'm not disputing his position, but seeing as this was previously disputed thought that this should be discussed here first. If no one objects I'll re-do the move in a few days. --Paul_012 (talk) 04:19, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

As Kwamikagami stated in his comment, the current state is more consistent with other languages. For example, the articles for Arabic, Hebrew, and Devanagari are all under the name "alphabet" (with a redirect from "script"). Also, people looking for this article or more likely to type "alphabet" than "script". −Woodstone (talk) 09:07, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

The one person objecting so far argues that marking vowels like Thai does means a script is not an alphabet, but that not marking them at all means that it *is*. I'm not sure that naming articles on non-prototypical alphabets "scripts" is a good idea, since they are alphabets in the popular conception as Woodstone says, but if we do call them that, we should call them all "scripts", and not make exceptions for familiar or influential scripts like Arabic and Hebrew.

At WP writing systems, there is a suggestion to use 'script' for the collection of characters, and 'alphabet' for particular instantiations/codifications of those letters. So the Vietnamese and Spanish alphabets belong to the Latin/Roman script. I think that's a useful distinction myself, though I'm not sure how useful it would be in the case of Thai. (But it would seem to apply at least to Nagari and Bengali.) — kwami (talk) 12:36, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Not that it's a RS, but Omniglot also uses Thai alphabet, as they do with other 'syllabic alphabets'. — kwami (talk) 00:56, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I think this argument is pointless, as long as the redirects don't go in circles. Historically, this and similar writing systems were called Dhamma Letters, sometimes with two sets, one for scripture, the other for more mundane script. See:

Joel John Barlow. "History of Lanna - Ancient Immigrations". http://www.chiangraiprovince.com/guide/eng/40_01.htm. Retrieved 15 July 2011. "These T'ai/Lao became the "People of the Dhamma Letters," with their several (at least six) similar alphabets and many dialects.... Lanna people used a variety of scripts, which varied over time and distance, and according to intended usage. One adapted from ancient Mon was used for secular matters. Another called Tham, Dhamma letters or Tua Muang, was used with many Pali words, for religious purposes. Similar secular/religious dichotomy existed in northwest Laos (Luang Prabang, Lan Xang), parts of northeast Burma (with the Khuen peoples of Keng Tung) and parts of Yunnan (especially with the Tai Lue of SipsongPanna). The oldest known palm leaf manuscript has been dated to 1471 AD." 

Thai combines sacred and secular script in one alphabet. --Pawyilee (talk) 08:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

PS: “Culture of the Region of the Dhamma Letters” – expression coined by Dr. Hans Penth (1937-2009)

Hans Penth (1994). "A Brief History of Lan Na: Civilizations of North Thailand". http://www.geocities.co.jp/Outdoors/6825/books200.html. Retrieved 1 August 2011. "The Yuan began to use two scripts and two languages for two different purposes: secular and religious. They used their own traditional Thai script, once probably adapted from old Mon, for secular matters in their Yuan dialect; and the then modern Mon script called Tham Dhamma letters for religious purposes, for instance in Buddhist Pali texts. Later, they used the Tham letters also for secular purposes. Their traditional Thai alphabet, which was similar to the Thai alphabet used in central Thailand, fell into disuse in the decades after 1850 and was replaced by the modern central Thai alphabet. But the rounded Tham letters, because of their use in religious texts, continued to be widely read and written until two to three decades ago. Though nowadays no longer officially in use, they are still regarded as one of the characteristics of north Thailand; they are found on nearly all of the many surviving palm leaf manuscripts and they are taught for scholarly purposes at university level and in some monasteries to uphold the tradition." 

--Pawyilee (talk) 08:55, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Liquid consonants

Copied from Talk:Thai language

Article needs a sub-heading on liquid consonants, which, in the periodic table of consonants below, are those in row 8 and in column 6, with these properties in common.

1. "Live" syllables end in one of these, the variant forms of -ัม and -ัย, or a long vowel. All other endings are "dead."
2. Those in row 8 columns 1–5 are nasalized versions of the corresponding consonants in row 1, with the seeming exception of column 2. The row 8 character is still a nasalized version of its row one parent in the dialect and name of the Nyaw people, but in most other dialects is usally pronounced /y-/ when leading and /-n/ when ending a syllable; if the character both ends one and begins another syllable in Thai, it is doubled as in ปัญญา intellect.
3. Also changing to /-n/ when ending a syllable are ร ล and ฬ; a single ร or ล may end one syllable with /-n/ and begin the next with /l-/.
4. ร when initial in Thai may be a trill consonant or rhotic consonant R, but is usually pronounced as alveolar lateral approximant /l-/. In the Isan language, corresponding words may be aspirated as /h-/. See Lao script consonant chart: the final character corresponds to the final character of Thai script, but the example word is also Thai but written as ร - เรื่อง. Five lines up are rōt (car) and rākʰáŋ (bell) but Thai, Isan and Lao regularly pronounce these words lōt and lākʰáŋ.

BTW, all rows and and all columns in this periodic table have properties in common. --Pawyilee (talk) 14:57, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

PS: Rhotic and non-rhotic accents in Thai makes no sense to me. --Pawyilee (talk) 15:17, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

--Pawyilee (talk) 05:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what the intention of table is, nor its origin or its composition, but it seems to me that ก does not belong with ด and บ, but should be with ต and ป, as it shares the "unvoiced" property with the latter. −Woodstone (talk) 13:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm the originator and its original intention was to go on the back page of all my Thai dictionaries as a guide to placing thumb marks on the edges of pages so I could find entries quickly — no other system works for that, and if you see a Thai using one, you'll find they have a heck of time finding entries. I posted it on this talk page as a convenient way to talk about periodic elements of the 44 consonants (moved down here.)

0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
1	ก	จ	ฎ	ด	บ			อ
2			ฏ	ต	ป
3	ข	ฉ	ฐ	ถ	ผ		ศษส
4	ฃ				ฝ		ห
5	ค	ช	ฑ	ท	พ	ย		ฮ
6	ฅ	ซ			ฟ	ร
7	ฆ	ฌ	ฒ	ธ	ภ	ล	ฬ
8	ง	ญ	ณ	น	ม	ว

1. Midlle-class consonants, rows 1–5 begin at the back of the throat and work forward to the lips: GAW-JAW-DAW-DAW-BAW. All of row 1 were once Voiced when initial, though you are correct that 1/1 in modern Thai pronunciation is semi-voiced, as is 1/2; you might further object that 1/8 has no voice — but no consonants have voice until a vowel gives it to them, unless they are liquids in row 8 or semi-vowels column 6.
2. Middle-class-consonany semi-voiced when initial, and like row 1, become voiceless stops when final. Rows 1 & 2 take tone markers 0-4 in live syllables; in dead syllables, 0 marker replaces 1 which is not used, nor is 4.
3. High-class-consonant equivalents of row one, except for col. 7. 3/7 are crammed in one box with the 3rd having its low-class equivalent in 2/6, (where it functions as a dialectical substitute for its cousin in 2/5.)
4. High-class consonants in need of a home; 4/7's low-class equivalent is in 8/5. In live syllables, 0 replaces 4 with 1 & 2 the same a row 1; in dead syllables 0 replaces 1, & 2 remains the same.
5. Low-class-consonant equivalents of 3/1–5. All low-class consonants, if used in consonant clusters, are 'promoted' to the class of its partner; otherwise, in live syllables 0 tone marker is mid-tone as for middle class, with 1 & 2 shifted down to replace 2 & 3; 3 & 4 are not used. In short dead syllables, 1 marks the falling tone & high tone by 0; in long dead one allowed is falling, so has 0 tone marker.
6. Low-class consonants needing a home: 6/1 equivalent to 4/1; 6/5 to 6/4; 6/2 being a dialectical substitute for its cousin in 5/2 as noted at 3/7(3).
7. Low-class additional consonants: 7/1–5 and 7/7 are mostly used to spell words of Pali/Sanscrit origin with no exact equivalent in Thai, 7/1–5 sound the same as 5/1–5; the sound of 7/6 often replaces that of its cousin 6/6, and has a sister in 7/7 for words in Pali/Sanscrit origin. Except for col.7 and row 8, low class consonants are unvoiced and, if final, end in a stop. Any syllable ending in a stop is dead. Any ending in an unstopped vowel or a liquid consonant are live.
8. Low-class liquid consonants, 8/1–5 are nasalized versions of 1/1–5. All of column 6 and 7/7 belong on this row, or better yet, have the same background color if only I took the trouble. As noted in the article, these are also promoted if used in consonant clusters, two special cases being when a silent 4/7 leads, or a silent 8/1 leading 5/6 in only 4 words.

--I have to quit for supper. --Pawyilee (talk) 11:46, 11 August 2011 (UTC) --Corrected some typos and added the bits on tone. --Pawyilee (talk) 14:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Well there's the Pali/Sanskrit comparison table already in the article; you understand, of course, that your table, while probably useful, doesn't merit inclusion in the article by itself? Anyway, I don't think liquid consonant is the correct term here (according to the corresponding article, the liquid consonants would be just ร and ล), but it does seem that info on closing consonant sounds is a bit lacking. Closing consonants should probably be expanded under a their own section, with explicit mention of the nine closing consonant sounds (มาตรา แม่ ก กา (none), แม่กก (-k), แม่กด (-t), แม่กบ (-p), แม่กง (-ŋ), แม่กน (-n), แม่กม (-m), แม่เกย (-j) and แม่เกอว (-w)) --Paul_012 (talk) 22:44, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, the original Greek definition of liquid consonant did include em and en, and spelling their names that way emphasizes that, when ending a syllable, their sound does not die. Closing sounds do indeed need better explication, but not by me as I would classify /ะ/ as a glottal-stop-consonant. I wouldn't dream of putting that or my periodic table in any wiki'd article but Talk, but my putting it here does mean that I have released my contribution under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL.--Pawyilee (talk) 08:37, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Overlap with Thai language article

Parts of this and the Thai language article overlap, most being discussions regarding phonation. Both articles probably should be rearranged to clearly mark which article the content belongs in. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:51, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Good luck.--Pawyilee (talk) 08:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

"pai-yan noi"

ฯ ไปยาลน้อย symbol pai-yan noi is attached to a phrase that has been shortened according to an established convention (norm), as Bangkok's formal name กรุงเทพ มหานคร อมรรัตนโกสินทร์ มหินทรายุทธยา มหาดิลกภพ นพรัตนราชธานีบุรีรมย์ อุดมราชนิเวศน์มหาสถาน อมรพิมานอวตารสถิต สักกะทัตติยะวิษณุกรรมประสิทธิ์ is shortened by a long-established convention to กรุงเทพมหานครฯ — but it is abbreviated กทม

Abbreviations, on the other hand, tend to follow English writing conventions — no periods where not clearly needed — thus กทม equivalent to BKK, and both spoken by naming the letters; ตจว in a newspaper headline is an abbreviation for ตั้งจังหวัด outlying provinces as opposed to กทม Bangkok. The period (.) is generally used where it would be used in English writing — i.e., usage varies — except that there is no space following the dot: thus นส.ยิ่งลักษณ์ is equivalent to either Mrs. or Ms. Yingluck (Shinawatra.)

I've already changed the table definition for pai-yan noi, but don't know where best to add a paragraph on conventional abbreviations — I am awaiting suggestions.

Also, I came here in the first place preparatory to adding a brief statement about use of pai-yan noi with Bangkok's shortened name. However, the article presently states that the shortened form is now "official" though it doesn't give a cite for that. Nor does the parallel Thai article use pai-yan noi; I don't read Thai well enough to determine if it gives a reason for its omission. As for the phrase itself, pai clearly means go and noi a bit, but yan doesn't translate. Still, I suspect the phrase means goes on a bit. Before I add anything to Bangkok's article, does anybody know anything about the either the omission or the tentative translation? In the context of how long Bangkok's formal name is, it is almost too good to pass up. --Pawyilee (talk) 14:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Corrections: กทม. is always punctuated with a full stop (period in American English); it is always shortened to กรุงเทพฯ. Almost all abbreviations include one or multiple full stops; the Royal Institute has guidelines on how to tell whether just one or multiple full stops are needed, but actual use varies, although most abbreviations are standardised (i.e. กทม and ก.ท.ม. are both incorrect). "ตจว" is not standard; you also got the word ต่างจังหวัด wrong. A half-width space is supposed to precede and follow the abbreviation in proper typesetting, hence " น.ส. ยิ่งลักษณ์". (Note that it's น.ส. not นส.)

As for the etymology of the name of the punctuation mark, again I must advise against trying to break down words and assuming simple roots or meanings. According to the Royal Institute's dictionary, ไปยาล is derived from peyyāla (เปยฺยาล) in Pali, which means repetition, succession, formula.[1] น้อย distinguishes it from ไปยาลใหญ่. As for Bangkok, its modern official name is กรุงเทพมหานคร and just that. The full ceremonial name is never used anywhere nowadays. กรุงเทพฯ and กทม. are both abbreviations of กรุงเทพมหานคร. Also, information about the punctuation mark should not be duplicated in the Bangkok article, as it is irrelevant to the city itself. Much as the article on Washington, D.C. does not contain an explanation of why the name contains a comma and two full stops/periods. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:09, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your corrections, and for saving me a lot of work that would've just been reverted. ---Pawyilee (talk) 04:02, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

/* Other symbols */ Reduplication

Changed mai ya-mok definition to link to Reduplication, which for 3.9 Austro-Asiatic has 3.9.1 Vietnamese and 3.9.2 Khmer, but it is my bedtime so won't be adding 3.9.3 Thai write now. --Pawyilee (talk) 15:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Reduplication equates to the Thai concept of คำซ้ำ, which may or may not use mai yamok. If a section is added to that page, it should concern the concept rather than just the punctuation mark. Reduplication in Thai serves many purposes, e.g. to denote plurality, to generalise, to intensify or de-intensify adjective meaning, etc. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:16, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I defer to your greater expertise and will let you do it. --Pawyilee (talk) 03:57, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Historical transliterations.

Most if not all articles give historically preserved transliterations as well as the modern, such as Mae Ji Mae Jo University, Jessadabodindra, House of Sundarakul na Jolburi and good old Abhisit Vejjajiva, for example. Does the article already mention this in passing, and I just overlooked it? --Pawyilee (talk) 08:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

ไ...ย and ไ...

Is there any difference in pronunciation between ไทย and ไท ? — kwami (talk) 04:03, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

No, they are pronounced the same. The Royal Institute's dictionary lists ไท firstly as an archaic spelling of ไทย—which it defines as the name of the ethnic group, freedom, or person—and secondly as person of power. ไ-ย also appears in certain Pali loanwords which contain or end with -eyya. The ย is redundant but not marked with a thanthakhat (◌์), but may be pronounced in a compound word when joined by samāsa. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:31, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I'll add a note to that effect to the article. Since it's the orthography of the name of the language, I think we should mention it somewhere. — kwami (talk) 21:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

So Sethaputra, สอ เสถบุตร (2542 BE/AD 1999). New Model Thai-English Dictionary. Bangkok: ไทยวัฒนาพานิช : Thai Watthanā Phānit. p. 148. ISBN 974-08-3253-9. "[entry 14]ไท, ไท้ n. (P = poetic, literary, archaic, literary ภาษาเก่า) a lord, a boss เป็นไท vi. to be lord, to be boss S. ใหญ๋ [15]ไทย (ไท) n. a. free, freedom-loving; Thai, pertaining to the Thai or Thailand, a Thailander; the Thai language เป็นไทยแก๋ตัว vi. to be free, to be independent S. อิสระ; สายม [16]ไทยทาน (ไทยะทาน) n. (P) offerings, charity, gifts" 

Note [14] has two spellings/tones. Many years ago, I read that English Tai was first coined by a RC priest transferred from Thailand to Yunnan just in time to be trapped by the Great Pacific War [WWII]. The natives he encountered shared Mongkut's opionion of Catholicism, so devoted himself to learning their language and ethnography, and concluded that he should get the h out and call them Tai people. --Pawyilee (talk) 07:31, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

สระ pronunciation

I don't want to mess with the article as I'm not good at composition, but Thai has two (presumably unrelated) words both spelled สระ but differing in pronunciation:

สะระ noun vowel

สะ verb wash or rinse cloth, clothes or hair.

See also sadao dab for neem, where the Thai transliteration is given as sadao; Khmer, sdao.

--Pawyilee (talk) 08:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)