Talk:Adolf Hitler and Stefanie Rabatsch

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Good articleAdolf Hitler and Stefanie Rabatsch has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Did You Know Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 18, 2015Peer reviewReviewed
April 24, 2015Good article nomineeListed
February 15, 2017Good article reassessmentKept
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on May 8, 2012.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Adolf Hitler was so hopelessly in love with Stefanie Isak when he was a teenager that he planned to commit suicide with her in the Danube?
Current status: Good article

"commit suicide with her"[edit]

The article states that Hitler wanted to "commit suicide with her", but the according to the source backing the claim, he planned to commit suicide and kill Isak against her will. Normally when person A kills person B in a murder-suicide we don't say that person A "committed suicide with person B". I think the current wording is misleading. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 19:48, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Should be changed. Jonas Vinther (talk) 19:28, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It was changed the same day: diff. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:34, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

15 March 2015[edit]

I just finished with my improvement of this article in my sandbox and implemented the whole lot. However, I don't think the article matches the GA-criteria (as I had hoped it would by the time my improvement was done). I will ask for some copy edits for this article and do my best to ensure it reaches GA-status. Cheers, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:43, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've made further expansions and improvements, but nevertheless opened a peer review. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:25, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Stefanie Rabatsch/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Calvin999 (talk · contribs) 09:28, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Info box
  • Is her date of death not known?
Yes, according to Kubizek and The Daily Mail. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think Residences parameter should be made plural
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Austrian army officer → Unknown Austrian army officer
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • Explain who Hitler is, such as Leader of the Nazi party
Absolutely, good catch; done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • has excited much → has been subject to much
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:52, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stefanie was born → Use her surname
Not done: It would be confusing to refer to her as "Isak" in the beginning of the article and later as "Rabatsch" further down for the reader. To avoid confusion, I've decided to always use her Christian name when reffering to her, although it's common practice to use surnames in biography articles, but this article (IMO) calls for an exception. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Linz
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hitler never spoke with her once and she ended up married to an Austrian army officer. → Hitler never once spoke with her, and she later married an Austrian army officer.
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • towards her. Little is known about her life. → towards her, and little is known about her life.
Background
  • Stefanie Izak, as she was known then, → Born Stefanie Izak,
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:52, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use Rabatsch from this point onwards, not Stefanie
Per my explanation above, I've decided not to. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • She was one, perhaps two, years older than he. → She is thought to have been one or two years older than Hitler.
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kubizek's book was heavily cut during the Nazi era, especially the details of Hitler's passion for Stefanie, but was republished in many editions after the war. → Kubizek's book was heavily edited during the Nazi period, especially the parts concerning the details of Hitler's passion for Rabatsch, but was republished in many editions after the war.
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Interaction with Hitler
  • and delivered daily → and deliver daily
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • was away, visiting → Remove comma
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • and was taking dancing lessons. → and was had taken up lessons.
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • stating he had found consolation in that → This isn't very clear
Well, being at the funeral of your mother most likely made the man extremely sad (Hitler was also defined by his close relationship to his mother in his early years), but he found consolation in seeing Stefanie at the funeral (I think she merely passed by, but even so). Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kubizek claims that, → Remove comma
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • After Hitler's mother died of breast cancer in 1907, the funeral procession went through Urfahr to Leonding and Kubizek remarks that Hitler said he had seen Stefanie at the funeral procession behind her window mother, stating he had found consolation in that.[3]

Kubizek claims that, "Stefanie had no idea how deeply Adolf was in love with her; she regarded him as a somewhat shy, but nevertheless remarkably tenacious and faithful, admirer. When she responded with a smile to his inquiring glance, he was happy and his mood became unlike anything I had ever observed in him. But when Stefanie, as happened just as often, coldly ignored his gaze, he was crushed and ready to destroy himself and the whole world."[3]

Hitler finally stated he planned to kidnap Stefanie and kill both her and himself by jumping off a bridge into the Danube.[2][6] Instead he moved to Vienna, where an idealised image of Stefanie became his moral touchstone.[7][2]

Stefanie stated in later interviews that she was unaware of Hitler at the time, but that she had received an anonymous love letter asking her to wait for him to graduate and then to marry him, which she only realised after being questioned about him, must have been from Hitler.[7] She recalled:

→ Make this one paragraph instead of splitting it off into small bits.

Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • lived in → she lived in
Done. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Little is known about her overall life. → It's a bit odd that you've placed this mid-sentence and not at the end of the section.
Agreed; moved. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Outcome

I think there is too much usage of the block quote with the large quotation marks. Three in an article this short is too much. Also, could the Adolf Hitler template not be added to the bottom of the article, and she included in it? This article is a bit of stub at the moment. Other than that, on hold for 7 days.  — ₳aron 17:11, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Calvin999, I agree with the block quotes; have omitted the marks of two and also added her to the Hitler template as well as added the template to the bottom of this page. Thank you so much for your thorough review and helpful comments, I've responded and made edits accordingly. :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 13:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Passing.  — ₳aron 12:57, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Later life[edit]

This website[1] has a scan from a German or Austrian newspaper where she is said to be still alive at age 85 and living in Vienna, which musta been in 1972. The scan also has a photo of her at age 85. Also, Kubizek's book was not "heavily edited" during the Nazi era, as his memoirs that the Nazis asked him about never came to be prior to 1945. In the pretext to his 1954 book, he writes that he didn't begin to write it down prior to the early 1950s. The only thing that the Daily Mail can be used as a source for is the statement that it has been published in many languages. --79.242.222.168 (talk) 16:52, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of WP:UNDUE additions[edit]

An editor has added citations from two books, one in Italian and one in Spanish, which merely mention Rabatsch in passing in the context of Kubizek's book, but make no further contribution to the content of the article. I have removed them as WP:UNDUE. I welcome opinions of other editors. Best, --Smerus (talk) 18:57, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I will restore them. They show that two non-English sources have devoted several paragraphs to the subject of the article, which is entirely relevant to this section, as are opinions from respected authors on the quality of the primary source. Well-sourced and relevant information should not be removed from the article while an AfD discussion is in progress. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:00, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Community reassessment[edit]

Adolf Hitler and Stefanie Rabatsch[edit]

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
Result: Kept The main reason to delist was the broad criteria and these appeared valid. The page move has fixed that issue enough to satisfy the GA criteria. The list of issues provided by Smerus include reasons not covered by the criteria such as notability, stabilty which is not a good reason to delist any article and others relating to the previous title. At its current title it is of a sufficient standard to qualify as a GA. AIRcorn (talk) 06:29, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm asking for a community re-assessment of this GA. The recent AfD revealed that this article does not cover most of the subject's life and is in fact focused on Hitler's infatuation with her. I posit that this article is not Broad in its coverage as required. Because I voted delete in that AfD I imagine my objectivity would be questioned so I'll leave it to the disinterested community. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:14, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not a good article. It is a highly problematic article, based almost entirely on the late-life memoir of a childhood associate of Hitler with all the usual difficulty of the unreliability of childhood memory compounded by the complexity of a Hitler associate writing in a post-war world that disapproved of Hitler and Nazism. Almost all of the other sources are the work of writers basing their assessments on that unreliable memoir. As far as I can tell, no evidence that a relationship between Rabatsch exists, and even the memoir claims only that Hitler admired the girl form afar without ever speaking to her. I voted to redirect to the article on the memoirist at the AFD, to at least put this mountain of footnoted speculation in context.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:30, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see no particular reason to reassess the article. It is indeed mainly about the young Hitler's infatuation with Stefanie Rabatsch and scholarly opinions about the infatuation rather than about Stefanie herself, for whom biographical details are scanty. It is broad in its coverage of the infatuation, reflecting what a wide variety of sources have said without going into unnecessary detail. I suppose the article could be renamed something like "Hitler's alleged infatuation with Stefanie Rabatsch", but that would be silly. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:37, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article fails significantly on a number of issues as regards the GA criteria.
It is not well-written. Clumsy , repetitive, including in the texts long lists of people who may have commented on the story without adding anything to our knowledge of the subject. It does not make absolutely clear that not a single aspect of the story has any supporting evidence apart from the unreliable memoirs of a third party written many years after the alleged events concerned. And more specifically, the article is entitled 'Stefanie Rabatsch' but contains startlingly little information about her which is reliably sourced. In fact on strict criteria, the subject of the article fails WP:NOTABLE.
Verifiability - the whole article is structured around a story (by Kubizek) which no one has ever been able to verify except by reference to Kubizek himself. Rabatsch is on record as saying that she had no knowledge of Hitler's supposed infatuation with her. Hitler is no evidenced as ever having mentioned Rabatsch (except by Kubizek). It seems agreed that Hitler and Rabatsch never even exchanged a single word.
Broad in its coverage - it is not. it is entirely concerned with one aspect of the subject's life, for which there is no objective evidence.
Neutral. No. By simply listing lots of people (some of whom of doubtful significance as reliable commentators) who advance Kubizek's story, it implies that it has some basis.
Stable - it has not been stable over the past few weeks as editors (including Aymatth2 and, I admit myself), seek to add or remove material which they believe to be appropriate or inappropriate. In any event it is now substantially different from its status when it was originally awarded GA.
Images. The images illustrating the article do not have appopriate copyright status and/or fair use rationales.
Therefore comprehensive fail as regards GA standards, and the article should be delisted as a GA. Smerus (talk) 10:48, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article is certainly not a comprehensive biography of Stefanie Rabatsch. Relatively little is known about her, and she did nothing of any particular significance. The article is about Kubizek's story of Hitler's infatuation and the interpretations of that story by historians. It makes it very clear that the only basis for the story is Kubizek, writing long after the event, and that some historians are skeptical about its accuracy or its relevance. The article does a good job of presenting the scanty biographical information on Stefanie, presenting a summary of Kubizek's story, and presenting a neutral sample of the diverse views of historians. Again, the article could be renamed something like "Hitler's alleged infatuation with Stefanie Rabatsch", but a change of title should not change the quality assessment. The present short title, "Stefanie Rabatsch", is the most natural. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:31, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you agree (as seems to be the case) that it is not a bio, then I would suggest that the material in the aeticle might have a place in an article such as Fantasies given circulation by August Kubizek. But in any case your concession indicates that it cannot qualify as a GA. Smerus (talk) 16:16, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • This article presents a notable subject, the alleged infatuation, which has been discussed by many reputable historians. It gives an excellent overview of the subject and the views of the many historians who have written about it. Yes, the biographical material on the supposed target is slim. Yes, Kubizek's story has been questioned. It does make the young Hitler seem a bit ridiculous. None of this means it is impossible to write a good article about the subject. "Flat Earth" could be made into a good article. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: My main issue with this article is that it is not actually a WP:BIO. The overwhelming majority of the content is about: *Scholarly reactions and *Kubizek's Hitler book and *not about the stated subject of the article. Also, the images are problematic - they are both sourced from the "1973 Austro-German television documentary called, "Ein junger Mann aus dem Innviertel, Der junge Adolf Hitler"." A couple of issues: *neither image is a verified/confirmed photo of the woman and *both images were contained in a media-production from 1973 so there could possibly be a copyright problem (since the photos weren't published in any sense until 1973). Shearonink (talk) 21:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Shearonink: It is indeed not a bio, but I cannot think of a good alternative title. I think WP:PRECISE is the guideline. Any suggestions? As for the pictures, the first one is fair use, since the subject is no longer living, but perhaps the second should be removed. Aymatth2 (talk) 23:27, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
At the very least the article should be given a different title, something along the lines of "Hitler's alleged infatuation with Stephanie Rabatsch" - that is as to the point as we could probably get.
This article is not actually about the woman, it's about matters having nothing to do with her actual life, it's about theories based on a recollection about an asserted teenage infatuation that wasn't referenced in public form until Kubizek mentioned it vaguely in his 1938 Nazi propaganda booklet Reminiscences...some 30 years after the alleged facts, that Hitler loved some girl named Stefanie, supposedly writing her many love poems that were never sent.
Re: the images - So far as I know there is no stated reliable source verification that either photo is of Rabatsch. Shearonink (talk) 00:00, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Hitler and Stephanie Rabatsch"? That seems precise enough to identify the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. The title does not have to be a summary. If ZDF and ORF say the picture is of Rabatsch, that is surely as reliable as it gets. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:51, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was mistaken and mis-read the parameters for the File - you are correct. Shearonink (talk) 01:33, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Aymatth2, Shearonink, I'm moving the article to "Hitler and Stefanie Rabatsch", since "Stephanie" is not how her name is spelled in the article. This will, I expect, heal the break with this reassessment page. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:19, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@BlueMoonset: I agree in principle with your move, but to conform to WP standards the article should be entitled Adolf Hitler and Stefanie Rabatsch (see here for examples of other articles involving Adolf Hitler) - will you move it again, or shall I? In fact I wonder now whther it would not be better to consider a merge of this article with Sexuality of Adolf Hitler - as the content of the present article 'Hitler and Stefanie Rabatsch' is actually very slight, and is only in fact of any interest in the consext of the sexuality article. Best, --Smerus (talk) 13:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Smerus, my move was only made to correct the spelling of "Stefanie", which was rendered incorrect in Aymatth2's move. I've had nothing to do with the article myself beyond that. If you feel that a different title better meets Wikipedia guidelines, I don't see any reason not to move it to that name, though let us know here so I can again do the necessary repairs to keep this page connected with the article talk page. If you want to open a merge discussion, that's also fine with me; among other things, if the consensus turns out to be merge, then this reassessment becomes moot. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:58, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Aymatth2:, @Shearonink:, is my proposed retitling OK with you? And do you by the way have any feelings about my suggested merge? Best, Smerus (talk) 18:44, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Smerus:. Titles should be precise enough to identify article scope, but no more precise. Adding "Adolf" seems over-precise. Were other Hitlers involved with Stefanie Rabatsch? But I would not strongly object. I would oppose a merge proposal. The supposed infatuation is mentioned the article on Sexuality of Adolf Hitler, as are the other women he was linked with. Merging in all the material on these women would make the Sexuality article very unbalanced. There is plenty of room in Wikipedia for an article devoted to this mildly ridiculous aspect of Hitler's adolescence. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:21, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is for the same reason that the article Adolf Hitler is not titled simply 'Hitler', although we all known who that would refer to. As you imply, the subject of this article is really Hitler (and people's theories and/or fantasies about him), rather than Rabatsch.--Smerus (talk) 10:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have a lot of experience with Good and Featured articles. In my opinion this article looks sufficient and has acceptable coverage for GA. The Scholarly reactions section demonstrates notability, making it unfeasible to merge into Sexuality of Hitler article.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:36, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Removing content[edit]

Let's leave the content that is supported by the sources. The last deletion, with edit comment "del; not supported by citation", removed

"Danielle Zumbo cites Kubizek in her 2013 Operazione Stalingrado: Storia di un eroe."

The cited source, Zumbo's book, reads:

"Hitler trascorse due anni da nullafacente, girovagando per Linz assieme ad un amico, anch'egli con velleità artistiche, tale August Kubizek, sempre molto pungolato dalla madre affinché trovasse un lavoro. In questo periodo Hitler confidò all'amico d'essersi infatuato di una ragazza bionda di nome Stephanie (Stefanie Rabatsch).".

That is clear enough. The content is relevant in this section, showing a non-English historian giving credence to Kubizek. I am at a loss to understand the obsession with trying to delete this article, downgrade it from GA, merge it into another or prune it to the bare minimum. Time to drop the stick and back slowly away. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find sources which prove that she died at 114.[edit]

How do we know for sure when she died? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.77.113.161 (talk) 21:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Page move request[edit]

Change to just "Stephanie Rabatsch". Though the Hitler interactions are obvious a main focus, he page is biographical of her and should be named as such. -Volvlogia (talk) 20:35, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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