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Should the page "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" be moved to "Elizabeth II"? DrKiernan (talk) 08:44, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Previous discussions

Statement by DrKiernan

The page should be moved to "Elizabeth II".

Supporting arguments

Per policy at Wikipedia:Article titles#Common names: it is the commonest unambiguous name used in most english-language reliable sources.
In the case of Elizabeth II, disambiguation from other monarchs or articles by adding "of a Country" is unnecessary: Elizabeth II is the prime use of that term, and the suggested location is a redirect to the current title.
Uniquely, Elizabeth II has been Head of State of 32 independent countries. No other person in history has ever held the office in so many separate nations. The current article title chooses one of these in preference to the others. Some editors perceive this as non-neutral. Per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Article titles where disputes arise over the neutrality of article titles, "the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources" should be used.
In 1953, separate titles were adopted for each of the Queen's realms, so she is "of Australia" in Australia, "of Canada" in Canada, etc. The article titles relating to British monarchs already reflect changes in the styles of the monarch. Prior to the Union of the Crowns, monarchs are "of Scotland" or "of England". After the Act of Union 1707, monarchs are "of Great Britain". After the Act of Union 1800, monarchs are "of the United Kingdom". There is no inconsistency if article titles also reflect changes in the styles of the monarch since 1953.
The main argument against the move is adherence to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Sovereigns guideline, but the guideline is advisory only and supports exclusions where necessary or appropriate, such as the List of rulers of Lithuania, List of Polish monarchs, and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Single name.

Supporting evidence

Survey of reliable sources

Media

Canada

Ireland

Irish Times: Elizabeth II 438, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom 0

United Kingdom

United States

Encyclopaedias

International organisations

Users who endorse this statement

DrKiernan (talk) 08:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 09:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
dramatic (talk) 09:29, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
—what a crazy random happenstance 09:29, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Darwinek (talk) 09:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's get this done then sort out a naming policy - D B D 09:55, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's get this over with. --~Knowzilla ^(Talk) 11:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Add disambiguation if necessary AJRG (talk) 11:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A sensible move. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Johnbod (talk) 12:39, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed; "Elizabeth II" is not only the most common name, but it corrects the WP:NPOV breach of the present title. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:50, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another reason is that she is the only Elizabeth II with an article, hence similar to the case of rulers of Lithuania. Would reconsider if another prominent Elizabeth becomes monarch of another country. Obviously, this reason would not necessarily apply to her successors, and so this can of worms may have to be reopened in the future, but it applies to her, and hence I support. Rlendog (talk) 15:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With a tiny objection. From 1603 to 1707, it was ...of England, Scotland and Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 15:45, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This sounds good, the Australians, Canadians etc. aren't part of the UK so the current title is actually misleading. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This situation is utterly ridiculous. This isn't even the worst offender as regards nobility articles retaining absurd quasi-"official" titles in the face of WP:NAME, but hopefully overturning it will go some way to breaking the precedent set by said absurdity and lead to re-evaluation of other titles along the same vein. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:38, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's get the move over and done with. Currently it's nowhere near the common name, and the title isn't that correct anyway. Ronhjones ^(Talk) 19:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Having joined late in the conversation but after reading a good chunk of the backlogs, I have to say I would agree with this and don't quite understand the objection. The Article isn't about ERII as a "private person" as much as it is about her *AS* Queen. The crown and person is shared equally among 16 nations. As a Canadian, I can easily see the sense in the rename. Dphilp75 (talk) 20:23, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Eraserhead. Xandar 20:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, this has been under debate for far to many years now Brian | (Talk) 21:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Users who do not endorse this statement

A completely unnecessary and inappropriate proposal. Deb (talk) 12:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We've done this at least twice before so why are doing it again? Absolutly no need as 2 previous votes have gone against it so I say leave sleeping dogs lie. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:47, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep trying till you get enough votes (note I didn't say !votes) for your point of view, eh? Inappropriate move as contrary to the standards used for all other monarchs. Keep where it was. And voting is evil, and Wikipedia is not a democracy, and all of that. Woogee (talk) 17:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose and ignore the reflexes of Canadian nationalism. We have a naming practice; we even have a naming policy. The present title is indicated by practice; it is supported by policy. Leave well enough alone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:22, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do not support, as "EII" is not the most common name used; that would be "the Queen" or, possibly, "Queen Elizabeth". Since those are both ambiguous, the current title is appropriate. I notice that someone, lower down the page, mentions the recent change of William I of England; the methodology seems to be similar: Propose, if it fails propose again, repeat until you get what you want. I do, however, endorse GoodDay's recommendation of a year off, if this proposal justly fails. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 21:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If the naming conventions are wrong then discuss that centrally rather than trying to create a change here. Also bringing a subject up again again and in the hope of wearing other editors down is bad practice. --Snowded ^TALK 22:29, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on DrKiernan's statement

I thought we had already been through this on the page and there was no consensus. Why are we polling again? Why is only one side being presented? What is going on? --Snowded ^TALK 10:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I assume anyone else can present their own proposals here. Peter jackson (talk) 10:23, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. DrKiernan (talk) 10:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are polling on this again because

There has never been consensus to change this, as the number of discussions above show.
There is no consensus to change it now.
A handful of ideologues cannot stand (2). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 10:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When about two-thirds of participating editors support the move and the arguements are favour are much more than those against, the article should stay where the minority prefers it to be? --~Knowzilla ^(Talk) 11:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Without (yet) getting into the larger question, I want to dispute DrKiernan's point 3. It is untrue that the number of places of which Elizabeth II has been head of state is somehow unique. A number of early modern rulers have had comparable number of realms they ruled - Philip II of Spain, for instance, or Emperor Charles VI. Even beyond that, I'm not really clear on what the argument is here. It's okay to have Charles III of Spain because he "only" ruled two other kingdoms (Naples and Sicily) and a duchy (Parma & Piacenza) before inheriting Spain, but it's not okay to have Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom because she has been queen (in a much less meaningful way) of many more countries? What kind of argument is that? john k (talk) 12:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's not unique, but absolutely no one, no monarch in history, has reigned over the amount of countries which Queen Elizabeth II reigned/reigns over. Also, what do you mean by "in a less meaningful way"? --~Knowzilla ^(Talk) 13:33, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why discussion about this article's title always gets bogged down with tangential debate on other article titles. The naming conventions have serious issues, and there is some overlap, but the two topics should be kept separate. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because the argument for the present title is consistency, just as the argument against it is ill-informed Canadian monarchism. Knowzilla's claim that no monarch has ever ruled over sixteen countries is utter nonsense; the Renaissance Kings of Spain, the Austro-Hungarian King-Emperors, the Czars of Russia had many more (indeed, so did the Kings of Prussia, before the Napoleonic-era unification of the country: Brandenburg, Magdeburg, the Prussian realms, Julich, Mark, Berg...) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ironic that your claim about "ill-informed Canadian monarchism" is itself ill informed. Are you resorting to unfounded and petulant attacks in defence of yourself because you've no substantial argument to do the job? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Septentrionalis

The reason for the present article title is threefold:

Most European monarchs have a most common name which is profoundly ambiguous. See Henry IV for a standard example: a King of England, a King of France, a Holy Roman Emperor, and a dozen lesser princes are all called Henry IV. None of them are primary usage, so they are disambiguated: Henry IV of England, Henry IV of France, Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor....
The result of this is a de facto naming convention, which applies, and must apply, to 95% of Western European monarchs.
By WP:Article titles, one of major our objectives in titling articles is consistency: there is no reason for readers and editors to wonder why the monarchs since the Act of Union change from George I of the United Kingdom to Elizabeth II. Since this title is equally precise, equally recognizable (no one has ever contended that there is any doubt who the subject of this article is), and so on, we use it.

This is disruptive fulmination, by those who had no consensus last month, to have a discussion away from the regular channels of WP:RM. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 10:54, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Septentrionalis' statement

It was ArbCom that suggested moving to an RfC and away from RM.[1] DrKiernan (talk) 11:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is a double falsehood, as that diff makes clear. An RfC is a proper proceedure; but it was suggested by Bobby Tables, not by ArbCom. Nobody, furthermore, suggested an RfC in a walled garden, where nobody but a preselected handful would find it.

If this is merged to Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom - and the assumption that WP:Common names is the whole of our title policy is dropped - I will consider this as though it had been proposed in good faith. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 11:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Click on "What links here". The page is extensively linked from elsewhere and is listed in all the appropriate locations. Your personal attack is unwarranted. DrKiernan (talk) 11:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where things are ambiguous, we disambiguate. We don't pre-emptively disambiguate for the sake of convention. WP:AT has five criteria to choose from, of which Elizabeth II is better than the current title for four of those criteria. Quantpole (talk) 13:19, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Naming conventions are constantly put forward as justification for the present title as though "convention" was somehow a synonym for "irrefutable policy from God himself". The only unquestionable policy involved here is WP:NPOV, which trumps WP:NCROY, a mere convention. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

clarifying the last discussion was closed on 17 March not last month[2] while the person closing said no concensus the majority(63%) supported the move this was a change from the first discussion in 2005 where 92% opposed the move, clearly concensus has shifted significantly on the issue. An rfc was suggested when the issue was raised at ARBCOM during the last discussion and given that the no-concensus closurer is disputable this is the next step the dispute resolution..Gnan garra 15:30, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We've already got 2 articles (recently) moved from Mary I of Scotland to Mary, Queen of Scots & William I of England to William the Conquerer. Also, parenthesis can be used for disambiguations. GoodDay (talk) 15:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to Elizabeth II (United Kingdom) if disambiguation becomes necessary. AJRG (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article's name is fine the way it is, so why change it?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:37, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article. AJRG (talk) 17:51, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Except when they aren't; as here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:28, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A concise title is preferred. You have to justify the need for disambiguation. AJRG (talk) 21:49, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The argument that the present title is due to a "de facto" precedent is flat-out false. Nobility articles on Wikipedia follow the de jure naming conventions cooked up by a subset of editors who daubed their names on a particular WikiProject list and codified by said editors at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility), and has been enforced as such ever since. The present situation (questioned and contended on a weekly basis) is as such due to bloody-minded opposition to the general naming guidelines. This isn't the only such sitation on Wikipedia, before anyone goes citing examples of other WikiProjects which fight to enforce absurdly stringent naming conventions on articles under their purview, but it is one of the ones most often challenged. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:45, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In short, there was agreement to use systematic and pre-emptive disambiguation for royalty, long before I, or Chris Cunningham, began to edit Wikipedia. This systematic approach is fully consistent with WP:Article titles, which was in part written to explain and jusrify such subject matter systems. Please cite what wording appears to you to say otherwise; I will change it to say more clearly what those of us who wrote that policy intended to say. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Once more into the breach dear friends

I will reply to Dr Kiernan's point in turn:

1. "Common name" is not at all the same as "most common unambiguous name", there are numerous people where the two are not identical, e.g. Nelson, Marlborough, Montrose, Prince Andrew. I would be prepared to bet you money that her common name in UK media sources is "the Queen", and quite possibly "the present Queen" and "Queen Elizabeth" are more common than "Elizabeth II" or "Queen Elizabeth II".

2. The logic of that argument could be to remove the pre-emptive disambiguation "of Country" from all monarchs where this is unnecessary. Are you proposing this, if so this should be raised at WP:NCROY, and if not why not? Such a proposal is not unworkable, although on balance I would be against it, for reasons I could go into.

3. We have a well-established naming convention that in cases of monarchs of multiple countries they are named after the country which they are most closely associated with. This applies to several monarchs, there is nothing historically unique about the situation with the Commonwealth Realms at present, if you look at recent discussions at WP:NCROY Talk page you will see that this idea was basically shot down in flames, the number of countries is beside the point. Are you proposing a coherent alternative naming convention here, if so it should be raised at WP:NCROY, and what is it?

4. This begs the question of how you propose to refer to British monarchs between the Union of the Crowns in 1603 and the Union of the Parliaments in 1707, at present they are at "of England".

5. Lithuania is a special case because, as the naming convention makes clear, its monarchs have a different namestock from other European countries. In my view the naming of Polish monarchs is a mess, and most of these articles should be brought into line with the standard naming convention. PatGallacher (talk) 11:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to say that I agree that Polish monarchs are a mess and should not be used as an example in this discussion. I was actually going to propose a mass move of these articles, but I decided that it's better to wait until this discussion is settled. And it may turn out that the entire guidline will be changed or even scrapped, so I suppose there's no need for rush here. — Kpalion^(talk) 15:47, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. Those alternatives are ambiguous, and hence unsuitable.

2–5. I think changes to other pages should be discussed at those pages. DrKiernan (talk) 12:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is the biggest argument against this proposal I think. I've been saying for a while now that I'd be up for a general proposal to changing the naming guidelines for all monarchs to remove pre-emptive disambiguation. I'm not up for carving out a special exception for Elizabeth II, and I'm particularly opposed to doing so based on a premise (that it is somehow POV to single out the UK) that I reject. john k (talk) 12:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NCROY is effective in all cases except this one why change the guideline to suit the exception. As I asked during the last discussion justify moving the opposite way...Gnan garra 13:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, there seem to be plenty of other cases where we do not have the obvious common name such as Queen Victoria, Peter the Great and Louis XIV. We also have articles which do already have the sensible common name such as Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a view on where this page should be, but I will just point out that in Britain, in general parlance and reference, The Queen (note uppercase T and Q)) is the correct way to refer to HM. HM (never "she") will only be referred to as Queen Elizabeth or QE2 when she either addicates or dies. The Queen is only referred to with all titles in the most solemn and serious documents,and then it is dressed up in very flowery and legal terms - calling for the Grace of God and dominions and whatnot - Wikipedia has to decide how formal it wants to be, because the present page's title is incorrect - it's not inclusive enough - So long as the Brits don't feel that "Queen Elizabeth II" is disrespectful and the Australians and Canadians omitted, I would opt for that as the simplest solution. To have the page called Elizabeth II, without the pre-fix of "Queen" is plain wrong. That's my 10 cents - take it or leave it. Fascinatingy and for your amusement, as I'm sure Kittybrewster will confirm, if in conversation with a Royal, one refers to a long dead sovereigh as Victoria, George V, Henry III, one is politely and firmly corrected in the reply, with an emphasis on King as in my "My grandfather, King George V always thought....". so one knows which way HM would vote on this. ref Giano 14:06, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After thirty days of discussion and no consensus and there have been previous discussion, continued discussion seems pointy and verging on obsessive to me. Is the title of the article so bothersome and worthy of such excessive effort to alter it? No it's not. Off2riorob (talk) 16:41, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Encyclopedia Britannica does have her at Elizabeth II of England/the U.K., and gives her full official title as "Elizabeth II by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other realms and territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith." Game, set and match?

I am also seriously considering proposing a block move of several Polish monarchs, but maybe we should wait for a bit more discussion.

I think DrKiernan's comment could be an example of why some admins rejected this move, effectively proposing that we abandon any attempt to have consistent Wikipedia naming conventions, but not raising this in a sensible way at the appropriate point in Wikipedia, but instead adopting a strategy of "guerrilla warfare" against the current naming conventions. PatGallacher (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is appropriate to discuss an article's title on that article's talk page. The Britannica article is linked above; the title is "Elizabeth II". DrKiernan (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This online Britannica is not easy to access, runs very slowly, which makes it difficult to establish what naming convention they are following, but the full title of this article appears to be "Elizabeth II (queen of the United Kingdom)". The paper Britannica, which is more important, clearly lists her as a monarch of the UK. PatGallacher (talk) 20:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that she's monarch of the UK isn't in question. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GoodDay

We must all agree, if the discussion ends in 'no consensus' for change (again)? a 1-year break on this topic should occur. A 2-yr break was impossed on the naming issue of the articles Republic of Ireland, Ireland & Ireland (disambiguation). PS: Even the Quebec seperatists have chosen to take a break from pushing for another independance referendum. GoodDay (talk) 18:06, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on GoodDay's statement

In the case of the Ireland articles, the majority view was imposed. DrKiernan (talk) 18:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rightly so, I may add. GoodDay (talk) 18:17, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see no indication that the status quo would be challenged to anywhere near the degree that it currently is were it to be changed as a result of this RfC. That does not apply to the Ireland articles where the naming issue is to a great degree an issue of nationalism and not process. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about others, but after this RfC is complete, I plan to take a 'year' off, from this topic. The discussions of this article's name, are becoming repetative & thus boring. GoodDay (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kotniski

If the recent discussion has proved anything, it's that neither the current title of this article nor the current naming convention for monarchs is supported by anything resembling consensus. The only way forward I can see is a carefully prepared and well-publicized poll on the whole issue, as I was previously trying to do at WP:NCROYPOLL (unfortunately the "carefully prepared" part proved to be a stumbling block, but we could revive it or start over). Either that or simply move the article to the title that most people (and Wikipedia policy) support.--Kotniski (talk) 19:19, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What policy supports Elizabeth II? Before you cite it, please check the edit history; I would regret it if careless phrasing on my part should lend support to a result never intended by those who wrote it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What policy supports Elizabeth II of United Kingdom? I know I am being a bit technical, but WP:NCROY is a guideline, not a policy. And, as it says on the page, "This guideline documents an English Wikipedia naming convention. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page." Treating it with common sense and dealing with an occasional exception that may (and I think should) apply is what we are dealing with here. Rlendog (talk) 22:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is exactly what I have been trying to get people to do, put forward coherent alternative proposals at WP:NCROY. PatGallacher (talk) 20:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've done that. For monarchs the title should be George VI or, if disambiguation is required, George VI (United Kingdom) with the name of the state at the time they were monarch in parentheses. AJRG (talk) 21:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Except that raises problems when they were monarch of more than one country. That is one of the issues raised by DrKiernan in his rationale for moving Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 94: / Line 94: @@
 # '''Strongly oppose''' and '''ignore the reflexes of Canadian nationalism'''. We have a naming practice; we even have a naming policy. The present title is indicated by practice; it is supported by policy. Leave well enough alone. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 19:22, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
 #Do not support, as "EII" is ''not'' the most common name used; that would be "the Queen" or, possibly, "Queen Elizabeth".  Since those are both ambiguous, the current title is appropriate.  I notice that someone, lower down the page, mentions the recent change of [[William I of England]]; the methodology seems to be similar:  Propose, if it fails propose again, repeat until you get what you want.  I do, however, endorse GoodDay's recommendation of a year off, if this proposal justly fails. Cheers, '''[[User:LindsayH|Lindsay]]'''<sup>[[User_talk:LindsayH|Hi]]</sup> 21:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
+#'''Oppose'''  If the naming conventions are wrong then discuss that centrally rather than trying to create a change here.  Also bringing a subject up again again and in the hope of wearing other editors down is bad practice.  --[[User:Snowded|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">'''Snowded'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Snowded#top|<font color="#708090" face="Baskerville">TALK</font>]]</sup></small>  22:29, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
 ===Comments on DrKiernan's statement===