User talk:Jimbo Wales

Disgusting

I would like to say that, as an educator, I find your recent comment which states that "it's a bad educator that bans their students from reading Wikipedia"[1] is ignorant, rude, and disrespectful of people who actually know how to teach and have dedicated their lives to doing so. You may revel in amateurism, but professionals can see that this site is a terrible education resource. 1.33% of the Wikipedia is tagged for cleanup alone. It may be interesting as a general trivia site, but it is not something I would permit my students to learn from, whether you call me a 'bad educator' or no. 86.142.48.123 (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was going to write something here but I was stuck in a meeting this morning for 3 hours *groan* I, too, have to disagree with your statement that Wikipedia should be accepted for schoolwork. You even included the caveat that only articles that are well-cited should be used. What teacher is going to want to analyze every Wikipedia article cited to see if it is acceptable for use? Also, many (if not all) elementary, middle or even high school students would not be able to determine if an article overall has good citations or not. Besides, it is generally accepted that terciary sources are not academically acceptable. I teach my students to use encyclopedias, Wikipedia included, only to begin their research when they have no clue about the topic. Also, there is nothing wrong with chaining to the sources that many entries cite like newspaper articles, books etc but use the information from the original... not the encyclopedia. I write you this as one who uses Wikipedia extensively (see my user page and WP:SUP) for my writing and Advanced EFL classes. Don't throw down the gauntlet to educators... you get the reaction like the one above. However, keep pushing to make Wikipedia better. You are right that students do use it, even if prohibited. Plus, it is proving to be a really excellent way to get students to write and research.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The BBC article is entirely misleading about my remarks. My opinion on the proper use of Wikipedia in the educational environment has not changed one bit. I believe that our anonymous teacher, above, would respond as the audience did: strong applause. The key, of course, is to hear what I actually said, rather than this misreporting. I have asked the BBC to run a correction.

I believe that educators whose entire response to Wikipedia is to tell students not to look at it are in fact bad educators. Good teachers will understand that the right approach is to teach students about the weaknessess - and strengths - of Wikipedia. And to caution them that Wikipedia is not an acceptable source for an academic citation, any more than Britannica is. Thelmadatter, I agree absolutely with your remarks about the use of Wikipedia in the classroom, and based on reading what you have said, I suspect we would have to work really hard in a conversation to find any differences in our opinions at all on these matters.  :-) So, I plead innocent.--Jimbo Wales 19:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, I think that the point here is not whether or not Wikipedia can give students accurate facts, but the evidence for these facts. When I was a student and writing essays etc. I would always have to include a bibliography unless it was clearly stated that something was my own opinion. Wikipedia professes to be an encyclopedia yet "encyclopedia" actually translates from the Greek as "well rounded education". How much of a well rounded education can one get from a series of "facts" that are marked [citation needed]? And before you say, adding that is not a caveat for you, since you say you are an encyclopedia. You mention about teaching the "weaknesses - and strengths - of Wikipedia" but why should teachers have to? You may think I'm being pedantic. Fair enough, stop calling yourselves an encyclopedia then. Just my "2 cents". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.172.247 (talk) 00:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgusting? No way. It was a good BBC article and good to see you yet again promoting wikipedia and this time in Old Blighty. Would that I had access to such a vast body of knowledge when I was a teenager and of course those of today should be encouraged to use it. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

could you tell us what you really did say?Thelmadatter (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a video or audio anywhere, but I said basically the same things that I always say. If you have seen any of my speeches where I address these questions, well, I said what I always say. (Basically, teachers can use wikipedia as a teaching opportunity to help students better assess information sources. Wikipedia has strengths and weaknesses. An outright ban is silly... you can tell students not to listen to rock and roll music, too. But accepting wikipedia as a citable source is not really right either.)--Jimbo Wales 22:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree Wikipedia has some flaws like anything else, BUT it is fairly new and getting better every single day. I would strongly argue that the educational system has so many more flaws, and it has had over a 100 years to reform itself. As an author, I can state that I have probably learned double the amount of information on wiki than I did in school. Our schools have ancient textbooks which have become antiquated, wiki has thousands of editors that keep everything up to the minute, from new science advances to news updates. Once they perfect all the flows in the wiki system, I strongly believe the world will embrace it as the new system for learning and education. I quote the great Thomas Edison who I believe was the greatest genius of all time: "Our schools are not teaching students to think. It is astonishing how many young people have difficulty in putting their brains definitely and systematically to work." I completely agree with Edison. In the 21st century, not much has changed with the school system, it is almost as it was one hundred years ago (that is disgusting)! I believe wiki is a system that encourages students to think and participate in history, science, and current events. Thank you Jimbo for starting Wikipedia!--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 08:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

One of my teachers frequently cites Wikipedia. He first gives the page a read over, then tells us to look at the specific article. He thinks it's a valuable resource. I agree with him. I learned a lot from Wikipedia on my Software Engineering course, and I did well on an essay (something I don't do much of on my course) thanks to Wikipedia. --Deskana (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that any good teacher should say "do read Wikipedia but don't trust Wikipedia - use it as a starting point". Any reference to Wikipedia as a resource necessarily has to include the need to look at the page history, the article talk, and the internal and external links. The article the student sees is only a node on a temporal trajectory (can I trademark that?). My first contribution to en:wikipedia (as an IP) was following up on an argument in a pub about orbital mechanics. Don't try this at home kids! :) Geostationary orbit said 9 miles above the surface of the Earth and I looked at it 17 times, got my CRC Handbook out, checked two websites, I knew it was obviously wrong, I couldn't just walk away, but I had to be sure that "Undo" was going to make things right. So at any given time, there are errors and I could have left that one - and if people in any way learn to rely on Wikipedia, well, don't shoot your mouth off in your local pub based on it and for God's sake don't build any bridges or railways. I hope Jimbo would agree that the key is to teach how to use Wikipedia, it is not the answer, it's the way to find the answer. Franamax (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And there's the tradeoff between accuracy and accessability. If you use anything on the internet which is free, you usually have just the same problem as with Wikipedia (PUBMED govt subsidized medical references being a major exception). And what are the chances you're going to spend the afternoon at the local library pulling tomes off shelves to get something you really know you can trust? Usually you don't need to trust anything that much. It's NOT the airplane or bridge you're building-- if you do that for living, somebody has bought you refs that you damn well CAN trust. So what do you use Wikipedia for? Somebody's doc sends them for a PET scan and they and you want to know what that is. In 10 min with a computer or even the right cell phone, you can find out more about PET scans than the average MD knew 10 years ago. And most of what's in Wikipedia is accurate, or if it is not, it's obvious that it's been messed with, because 99.999% of vandals are fools and all they can do is delete stuff or add scatology. Changing a decimal in an orbital calculation is actually what you very seldom find. SBHarris 21:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As I have said many times, while WP is not itself a reliable source (you never know when the page you load will say POOP), it is an excellent and possibly unparalleled resource for finding reliable sources on almost any topic. That is why some of us have worked hard to make the footnoted cites as complete as possible, so that any kid in a library can go find those sources. - Crockspot (talk) 22:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

But it is a joke academically. Students cannot be steered towards mercurial matter without serous warning.i.e. "Never use Wikipedia". opiumjones 23 (talk) 22:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Crockspot makes a good point. WP, for all its issues, is an excellent place to start one's search. It's more productive than the first 3 pages on Google in any number of searches. Also, WP serves as an ongoing exercise in fact-checking. It can be used as a great opportunity to teach students how to evaluate information in any given source. This is a skill that seems to be lacking in many students, a lack that was present prior to WP. But I have to say, while WP is usually judged in terms on its encyclopedic content (that is from non-editorial utility), not enough attention has been paid to the value of editorial utility. WP has value from an editorial perspective because it is praxis, theory in practice. Here, theories of knowledge production, electronic community, difference, and privilege play out in the most interesting ways. If nothing else, WP is a great petri dish for online communication. In this sense, we do not give WP enough credit for the social experiment that it is. There are a number of ways WP can be used as a tool in academic discourses. While I think it is reasonable and responsible for teachers to disqualify WP as a reliable source, it is irresponsible for teachers to categorically dismiss WP as an educational tool. Phyesalis (talk) 15:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

"more productive than the first 3 pages on Google"?? - Wikipedia IS the first 3 pages on Google! All other points taken as written. :) Franamax (talk) 16:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Due dilligence in placing Carolyn Doran in charge of WikiMedia finances

"I know nothing about this" is the wrong answer, Jimbo. "I will investigate the due diligence in placing Carolyn Doran in charge of WikiMedia finances and will get back to you on that. I am sure we hired a reputable firm to do a background check, but I'll have to ask Sue to get the actual facts. Also, the current audit so far has uncovered no fiscal irregularities." would have been the right answer if it were true. Can you give that answer, Jimbo? WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course that's my answer. All I am telling you is that the Register article contained information that shocked me. Of course we are looking into it carefully. And currently, the Wikimedia Foundation does background checks on employees, etc. And the current audit so far has uncovered no missing money, etc., etc.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Thank you. I feel such a sense of relief. Really. I just read that Goodwin said "the WMF is unable to comment any further because of continuing legal constraints" and "There are legal constraints that apply to the Board, to staff, and to anyone acting formally on the Foundation's behalf."[2] which is better than "I know nothing about it" and was coming here to amend my comment to say so; thinking that maybe you could not say what you just did for legal reasons. I am so very happy that the current audit so far has uncovered no missing money. To me that is the key thing that will make this an "Ops, we should have done a background check, but in the end it was just an embarrassment from before we had people who knew what they were doing running things but now we are in capable hands" story versus a major scandal - which is what it would be if you were not able to say the current audit so far has uncovered no missing money. Thanks for clearing that up. I feel so much better. WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I will go even further. If the audit uncovers any evidence of theft, I will personally donate out of my own pocket to cover whatever is missing. I feel pretty confident doing that even though the audit is still underway.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that's reassuring to all of the editors and, in particular, to all of the donors. Thank you. Dekimasuよ! 03:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

You could probably place a fairly firm limit on any potential problems by asking the tech team how much they had spent in the relivant time period and it is fairly safe to assume the tech team would notice any odities between what they ordered and what they got.Geni 15:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of this latest scandal's magnitude one thing is certain;Trying to cover it up with oversight or office or other means will only make it worse.(Sunlight is the best disinfectant)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 03:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Oversight hasn't been used on the page titled "Carolyn Doran" at all. Whoever led you to believe that was in error. --Deskana (talk) 15:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Oversight hasn't been used YET. And it is important for Jimmy to expressly forbid it in this case. Otherwise the appearance, if not the reality, of impropriety will only be made worse. You can't kill the truth by oversighting it.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 18:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Please stop assuming bad faith. Why on earth do you think the first thing the Foundation is going to do when negative news pops up is try to "kill the truth?" Mr.Z-man 19:03, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Because it has in the past...most notably with the Essjay controversy. Faith, good or otherwise, won't get you out of this situation. It will require leadership, openness, honesty and full disclosure. I HOPE and TRUST Mr. Wales understands this.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 21:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I read all three articles in the Register, and was underwhelmed. It did make me interested in Wikipedia, while I had only been a spectator. I don't view any of this as a scandal outside of the small circle of people obsessed with Wikipedia. Just my two cents.

Google vs Wikipedia

Hi Jimbo. Do you know the last creation by Google? I refer to Knol. Can this be the Google's response to Wikia Search? I want to assume good faith by Google, but... ;). Cheers. --Emijrp (talk) 20:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

If Google thinks they can create something superior to Wikipedia, good luck to them! That's the nature of the project. If our existance inspired a project better than Wikipedia at dispersing free knowledge, then we've succeeded in our goal, which is at the end of the day to make human knowledge accessible to all, whether it be through Wikipedia or not. I think it's going to be an interesting project to follow. --Deskana (talk) 23:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I guess nothing like a challenge, and yeah I had read this too. I thought the industry commentator Nicholas Carr was spot on. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing like a good old spot of rivalry now is there? Knol vs. Wikipedia. How exciting! Lradrama 18:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Malcolm X was racist

Malcolm X is documented as an extreme racist, calling White people inherent Devils. I don't think it's appropriate for wikipedians to be saluting him or entertaining the idea that he was in favour of racial equality.

When White people can recognise Dr.Wesley Swift and Aryan Nations as human rights activists it will be just for Blacks to list Malcolm X as a human rights activist.

Thanks,

86.27.128.183 (talk) 11:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems that this quite startling fact (being an extreme racist) is absent from the article. Perhaps you would care to name your references and put it there... unless of course you are just another racist Moron simply spewing out your hateful Shit. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC) (Mark James Slater)

Malcolm X had a variety of opinions throughout his life. He was neither born a racist, nor died a racist; but he was one to varying degrees at points in the middle. He had a very enlightening trip to Africa at one point; where he was considered a white Western man and neither black nor African. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you (LessHeard vanU and WAS 4.250) got your facts. During his time as a leader of the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X regularly referred to "white devils":

From his adoption of the Nation of Islam in 1952 until he left the organization in 1964, Malcolm X promoted the Nation's teachings. He referred to whites as "devils" who had been created in a misguided breeding program by a black scientist, and predicted the inevitable (and imminent) return of blacks to their natural place at the top of the social order. (from Malcolm X#Nation of Islam)

For sources, you can start with The Autobiography of Malcolm X or any biography.

Malcolm made three trips to Africa. He was very light-skinned, and certainly a Westerner, but nobody ever mistook him for a white man.

I think the IP editor may be referring to my Username and user page, which is illustrated with a picture of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. He left a message expressing similar concerns at my Talk page, and I responded to him there. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Um ... and why is this discussion on this page? Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The user who posted the original comment probably realized that this page is looked at by a lot of users, and decided to use it as a soapbox. --θnce θn this island ^Speak! 00:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia Signpost interview

Brave New Workshop in Minneapolis, Minnesota, but there is more to this story

Hello, Jimmy Wales. Some time ago the editor of the Wikipedia Signpost collected questions. About twenty or so people took that opportunity to ask you any questions they might have. I was pleased to be able to post about four questions, communicate with that group, and attend that interview. It seems to me that you had returned from China that day and were on your way to somewhere in Africa. I did not ever receive a precise answer to my questions, but I do recall that questions of a technical nature could not be answered during that interview anyway, in part because of lack of time (it was about one hour or so). I can look up the page of questions if need be and have a log of the IRC session most likely. I supposed at the time that my exit message was a quote from Laurie Anderson, the title of a song "Talk Normal", but I may be mistaken. Anyway, thank you for showing up that day. I have posted some other questions at Talk:Internet Engineering Task Force where they may be more likely to be addressed, or not. Take care and best wishes for the holiday season and the new year. -Susanlesch (talk) 19:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Hope this is okay. Just a holiday photo for you and the others who may visit your talk page. The young men in the picture told me Mr, Riggs was a star with the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus before he opened this venue. No one told them what I was once told, that Mr. Riggs was a trapeze artist in Minneapolis maybe downtown. Boy things get lost over time. Once he gave me a salt shaker. I don't recall why that happened. -Susanlesch (talk) 08:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Who is maintaining this page for Jimbo

Who ever is maintaining this page for Jimbo is do a very poor job. Archives 29 and 30 were not on the list The archive header sends people on a wild goose chase claiming that posts older than 3 days are being archive to Archive 26. There was no navigation header on Archive 29 or 30. I have taken the time to fix the above mentioned problems. One problem I left was the fact that archive 29 and 30 overlap each other as the newest post in Archive 30 is November 28 and the oldest post in archive 29 is December 14 Dbiel ^(Talk) 23:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the answer to your question is, at the moment, YOU are maintaining it. Keep up the great work. I'm sure Jimbo appreciates the effort. :) - Crockspot (talk) 23:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed the remaining problems. —Random832 20:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Blessed editing, and...

Happy Holidays from Marlith ^T/C

Credits: This card was inspired by Macy's123, assistant of V's Shop

Marlith ^T/C 00:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, have a great Christmas Jimbo! :-) Lradrama 12:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations!

I would like to congratulate you for founding Wikipedia, that, according to Guiness World Records 2008, became the largest encyclopedia of all existing encyclopedias. Keep up the good work! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! --  Idontknow610  (WANNA TALK??) 01:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Two suggestions

1) To decrease vandalism: I was wondering why WP is allowing everyone to edit user pages. Vandals are mainly targeting user pages. So if you make it mandatory that users with a specific editing history/time registered only are able to edit user’s pages (& talk pages). Recently I saw an admin's user page that “This user identifies as gay” userbox on the top list. I was little frustrated though it can be true. When I checked the same page next time, it was removed and I knew that was vandalism. So, if you altered it to what I mentioned, I think it may produce with productive results.

If Wikipedia blocks other users from editing another person's user page, then it would be hard to edit spelling mistakes. However, it is a good idea that the user has the sole privilege to edit his own user page. All in favor? --Marianian (talk) 12:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There are many bots operating, that helps AutoCorrect spelling. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

2) To make it more user friendly: All external links should open in a different window. As per existing program it is redirecting to the same window, which I feel not a good work. How do you think? --Avinesh Jose (talk) 09:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both proposals. They're good ideas, especially the first one. Look at the state of my userpage history, due to high vandalism rates. It doesn't really bother me that much, because some kind users always turn up and mend it for me if I don't notice. But every little helps! (Just be careful about how you word that bit about gay users...it kind of sounds like seeing a user with a gay identification userbox on his page frustrates you.) ;-) Lradrama 12:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There are legitimate reasons why someone would want to edit someone else's user page - updating migrated userboxes, removing inappropriate content (copyright violations, fair use images, spam etc), some users are quite happy with other people editing their user page - so there would need to be some provision for allowing people to edit other people's user pages if this scheme is to work. Hut 8.5 17:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, what I meant was make the program such a way that only established users/admins/ users with specific time registered are only allowed to edit user pages in order to prevent vandalism. Because it is true that many vandals are using it through anonymous IP address / newly created user id. In my opinion, that should not allow. If a new user had come across any illegal/CopyVio text in anonther user’s page, they can immediately notice that to their (admins) attention, instead of them editing it-if this alteration is to work. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Vandals mainly target user pages? Simply not true, the great majority of vandalism is to the main space. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I am just saying user page is one of the main targets for vandals along with main space. Most user page vandalism occurs in retaliation for a contributor's efforts to deal with vandalism and are the main victims by personal attacks, abusive comments etc. If you (Jimmy) alter the program according what I suggested, don’t you think it as a good idea of putting a stop to vandals? --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree on second proposition, but this is not at all the place to propose it. Joshdboz (talk) 17:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Then tell me where can I post it? I think Jimmy is not interested in my proposal?--Avinesh Jose (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:VPR. Hut 8.5 18:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I cited a link to here from WP:VPR. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 04:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I do agree that while its easy to remain dispassionate about main space vandalism that people do get affected by having their user pages used by trolls in order to make deeply offensive personal attacks. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Registered users can choose to make external links open in a new window at Gadgets in Special:Preferences. I think it should remian off as default. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Fund raising header and coordinates in en.Wikipedia - a major problem

Copied back from Archive 30 for the second time Copied back from Archive 30 I think that this is an important enough topic to at least deserve a reply before being archived into a hidden archive file. - I created entries to archive 29 and 30 during my search to find this post. Whoever is maintaining this page is doing a very poor job.

I can understand the need to use a fundraising header from time to time; but I can not understand why it can not be created in such a way as to display properly on pages that use the coordiates template in en.Wikipedia. I realize that the problem is the absolute location of the coordinate entry, but why no one with the power to do something about it is willing to invested in the programing costs to fix the problem escapes me. The following page is a good example of the problem which displays differently dependant upon that status of the fund raising header (hidden or fully displayed) both create problems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Joseph%27s_Catholic_School_%28Hamilton%2C_New_Zealand%29# Note: the smaller the window the worse the problem becomes.

Also see the discussion related to the issue in greater detail at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#Problem_with_the_position_of_coordinates_with_fund_raising_header

Also posted at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising_2007/Archive2#Conflict_with_fundrasing_header_and_coordinates

These document some of my attempts to address the problem over the past 40 days

Would you be willing to forward this to someone with the tallent to fix the problem? Dbiel ^(Talk) 04:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

1st repost Dbiel ^(Talk) 16:25, December 15, 2007 (UTC)

2nd repost Dbiel ^(Talk) 13:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I have notified the developers.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Dbiel ^(Talk) 21:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Please note the suggestion I made on WikiEN-l. Thanks, Mike R (talk) 18:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Hi, Mr.Wales/any one monitering this page. I have a suggestion which I belive would seriously help out with the duties on Wikipedia (I posted this here because I do not know where else to post it). Basiccly, What I'm suggesting is the following:

(only) Segments of text being Protected

What I'm trying to say is this:

You know on say the main page, you can copy the source code but you cannot edit (it's grey and won't accept any text) well, I think Admins should be able to block specific segments of text, e.g the header of the sandox, or say in an edit war, instead of protecting that page, an admin could protect the information that people are conflicting about so people are free to edit the rest of an article without having to request it on the article's talk page.

So, if admins had the privleges to do this, it could lessen out the duties (e.g restoring the sandbox header) so users can concentrate on other things.

For anyone who is reading this- Please don't steal my idea!

thanks, cf38^talk 22:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Um... try one of the WP:Village pump's? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:21, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that it should be possible to protect a part of Wikipedia's main page, while some other parts of that main page should be editable by anyone, say (for example) the "selected anniversaries" section. That's how it is done today. Someone stole your idea before you had it. It uses transclusion of non-protected pages as a technique to implement it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I used the main page as an example. I mean things such as the sandbox header could be protected, so users would'nt keep having to reset it. cf38^talk 15:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Hard to implement text protection. If you protect, say, paragraph 2, I can add the BS to paragraph 1 or create a new paragraph with BS. Brusegadi (talk) 23:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The Sandbox header is reset automatically by a bot. –Pomte 10:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello

What is it like to be the creator of Wikipedia? --user:1bookfan 02:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC) also, please sign user:1bookfan/autographs page please!

Award given by another editor

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		message 1bookfan 03:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

for a very excellent job creating,maintaining,and supporting the wikimedia foundation.

Schnelle Frage...

Wovon haben Sie die Idee gekommt, um so eine Enzyklopädie wie Wikipedia mit Sanger und die Volken von Bomis gekommt? Ich denke, dass ich niemals das gewusst. Antworte gerne auf Englisch oder Deutsch, ich verstehe beide :) eszett^talk 13:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Menudo again

Mr. McGillis is back to his legal threats as 66.229.248.172‎ in his talk page [3], this time he issued the threat following a warning that I left on his talk page after taking part in yet another content dispute, this time over the inclusion of a link to his website on the article wich went against your desicion in the case as he posted in the article and ignored the temporary edit ban. I blocked the address for six months as I am hesitant to indef block a address that may change eventually, I will re-protect the article as it seems he is using Wikipedia Review as a chess piece in this dispute, and has created a account by the name of "menudo.biz" to gain attention in the website as evidenced in this thread (the original text may be in the quotes as he has now edited the original comments) the protection will be because this may bring some of the banned users that edit the website into this. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Change to introduction

I was reverted in making the following change, so I thought I'd bring it up on the talk page before making the change again. What do you think of changing the relevant section to:

Wikia is a completely separate organization according to the IRS; though in reality I fund a lot of travel for Wikia using Wikimedia Foundation funds, so thanks for donating! Wikia is working on a search engine project unrelated to Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation.

Yes? No? Thanks. 151.200.26.18 (talk) 07:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I use no Wikimedia Foundation funds for travel. I even pay my own travel to board meetings and the like. Nice job of trolling, though.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Strong No. It's another example of where some critics of Wikia/Wikimedia entanglement "think small". The key issue is not about travel funding, or even chump-change like speaker's fees. I think making it about trivia just sets up a straw-man that's counter-productive to the topic. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 14:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

You, on the other hand appear to imagine a cult based on evidence that consists of unpaid people around the world promoting and creating free culture in a variety of forms including interacting in a fun multiple player web-based role-playing game that interestingly has as a byproduct an amazingly large and useful collection of claims and references organized in the form of an online free-of-charge and copyleft encyclopedia. Seth, there is no cult. There exists at Wikipedia the normal range of behaviors you get in any online community. You and some others focus on some aspects and get a distorted image. Click "Recent changes" and observe an unbiased sample of what actually happens at Wikipedia. Some people (like me) are here because we like writing an encyclopedia in the same way others like bowling or gardening. Others are here for other purposes and the charge for being allowed to play the game is to help make wikipedia a better encyclopedia. It is like getting your fence painted by allowing only those who help to paint it play in the baseball game being played within the fence. Those who, like Jon Awbrey, complain loudly that the rules are not being followed are clearly ignoring the rule that you can ignore any rule so long as doing so helps the fence get painted. WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'd put it more like based on evidence of cult behavior, including everything from a charismatic leader, messianic motivations, demagoguery, and yes, a few top people aiming to make millions of dollars off the unpaid labor of everyone else while proclaiming that it's "fun". It's a mild cult in the grand scheme of things, not the worst, but I think further along that axis than is comfortable. Even in the very worst apocalyptic cults, there's day-to-day life. Someone has to take out the garbage from the cult's compound, do the laundry, deal with paying bills, go shopping, etc. If you look at the daily activity, they would say "We're not a cult, we're a community". Anyway, I try not to go on too much about this on Jimbo's talk page. There's WP:ALPHABETSOUP, and the block button if I say some things I think, plus it's a very tough audience to convince indeed ("There is no Santa Claus!" :-)). But I believe some of the people who bait him on this topic are really off-base, and I don't think I'll get in (much) trouble for saying that. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 19:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Seth, you have missed the whole point. This is not a community or a cult, the community idea is a fallacy invented by God knows who - probably Jimbo. For the most part "the community" is a few hundred people writing on subjects about which they are passionate. They range from university professors to just mere "anoraks" who devour every written word on a chosen subject. Believe me I know this for a fact. They are "here" for the simple pleasure and hobby of writing and discussing their chosen interests. Every now and again those dedicated few fall out with each other over an angle in which the content is presented. Now this is where the equation becomes interesting.

There is an even greater army of those who have joined "the community" simply because they enjoy legislating and policing. Some are sincere (NewYorkBrad springs to mind) others are here because they like to throw their weight around and imagine they have the ear of Jimbo Wales. Indeed some of them do appear to have that ear, and that ear seems to enjoy the flattery it listens to. This is where the cult scenario arises, it is these people who have been shown a minuscule window for power by Jimbo's project that see him as the charismatic messianic leader - what else have they got? as for the rest - the worker ants - they just suck their teeth and email knowingly to each other and eventually drift off. No one protests too hard about the situation for fear of being banned (they enjoy writing here). Jimbo needs to wake up, if he wants to- that is! His posturing and frankly very stupid comments to me "the harm you have done...etc." may have thrilled his confidantes but look at the votes they gave me, and he would do well to look at the names of those votes as well as the quantity. It would be impossible for me to be on the present Arbcom I would be frozen out and impotent. However, if Jimbo does not start to listen to those doing the writing soon the project will undoubtedly deteriorate, it won't fail because there is always someone new, and the police force will grow even larger. Is that what Wikipedia is about? There are some here who want to be in a cult, with their seeking out of socks and traitors, but the backbone of the encyclopedia feel those people are a joke, sadly if he is not careful Jimbo will fall into that category too. He needs to shut these people up and listen to those who want what is best for the project rather than their egos. Giano (talk) 21:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how Carolyn Doran's legal history bolsters this cult hypothesis. We're talking about an organization that has a dozen employees and an annual operating budget of $4 million. It's commonplace for a nonprofit of that scale to hire temp labor, and to trust the diligence of the placement agency's background check, and to inflate job titles a little because the salaries probably aren't fantastic. Ms. Doran worked for the Foundation for less than a year. The only reason she is newsworthy is because this relates to Wikipedia. Actual cults seldom produce material of interest to any broader audience than their own insular membership, but this small nonprofit has generated the eighth most popular website in the world. One of its basic missions is to provide every human being on the planet with a free encyclopedia of 50,000 words in his or her native language. The Foundation's progress toward that goal has been entirely out of proportion to its actual size. Arguably, that makes WMF the the opposite of a cult: a particularly effective nonprofit. Durova^Charge! 20:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I lost you somewhere. First, I didn't say anything about Carolyn Doran in any of the above. If you ask, I'd say the cult aspect comes in the aftermath, where people are supposed to suspend basic skepticism because it's against the tenets of behavior - something which is always a big red flag to me. And the guy who said "IOW, I don't care if she shot her boyfriend, and killed somebody while driving drunk. It's editorial abuse that pisses me off!", well, I hope that was tongue-in-cheek, otherwise it's a howler. Again, I think you're only looking to the worst cults. You're probably unfamiliar with Spiritualism, for example. And lot of 1960's-era communes produced interesting material, though it's out of fashion now. I keep wanting to ask Jimbo if he's ever read "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test", I'll take this chance to work it into the conversation. Basically what happened with Wikipedia was that a quirk in Google's algorithm enormously amplified a pathological pattern. But it's not something that's more than a new twist on some very old tricks. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 21:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't. The incident did function as a springboard, though, and I'm unsure why. And I can't quite agree that that Wikipedia's popularity is inherently pathological. At any rate, events play out in a way that proves you correct, then somebody else will get this concept right and put the GDFL content to better use elsewhere. Durova^Charge! 21:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Uprising of the righteous in de.wikipedia.org

Dear Jimbo, I'd like to draw your attention to a call for vandalism in the German speaking Wikipedia made by established users. This group wants to censor vector graphics of NS symbols so that (dumb) Neo-Nazis could not make use of our high quality images. Please speak out against this plan.

It is a heated debate which lead to an admin blocking me for two hours for stating my opinion. When I complained about it other admins affirmed that I had not violated the rules and therefore the block was unjust. For answering the question what I think why I was blocked I have been blocked for additional 24 hours (“NPA”). Some have argued that my points were legitimate and my block should be revoked but no one did—who would dare to defend a “swastika lover”?

As I understand your statement of principles you agree with me that Wikipedia is an open project and no one should be excluded on the grounds of group membership. This means every imaginable group is generally welcomed at Wikipedia: Neo-Nazis, misogynists, child molesters etc. This consideration makes one not feel comfortable but it is the truth: all these groups are already readers and Wikipedians. Neither our license nor our five pillars forbid those groups the use and participation. I ask you to publicly admit this fact and elaborate your rationale behind these terms and conditions. --mms (talk) 12:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, Jimbo! You have been selected being unser Führer of German WP :-( Seriuosly! sorry, but not kidding. And he is not blocked yet. Wikipedia, erwache! --195.4.209.76 (talk) 16:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Führer? Gott im Himmel... Allow me to propose a quote from William Tecumseh Sherman. When he learned that there was a movement to make him president of the United States, he answered I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected. Durova^Charge! 18:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing to führ äh fear, mms just told on de:WP:FZW, our Village Pump, that he loves Swastikas. In my opinion is this in Germany and Austria not quite OK and a prosecutor would propably be quite interested, albeit our servers are not located in Germany. Leave mms alone, standing near persons playing russian roulette can hurt bystanders too. Achates (talk) 19:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Please no personal attacks. We are in en.wikipedia.org here. No one is interested whether you think it is “quite okay” to love swastikas or not. But I’m still very interested what Jimbo thinks about writing Wikipedia for the benefit of Neo-Nazis and the like. --mms (talk) 20:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I've just read that thread and I don't see either side professing a fondness for swastikas. It's poor form to make these insinuations, particularly in a venue where most people are unable to read the original. It's a discussion between two sets of reasonable people that has deteriorated from sarcasm to animosity on a topic that would be sensitive in any language, but nowhere more so than in German. Each language edition creates its own consensus policies. Here in English we retain all material of encyclopedic value, regardless of its potential to give offense, and the community manages the occasional individuals attempt to exploit sensitive images for shock value. It isn't for us to dictate our solutions to other languages. Yet I do suggest you refrain from using polarizing tactics. Durova^Charge! 20:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

		What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar
		To Jimmy Wales, for having a Wikipedia account in your name. Susanlesch (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the spam but I am fresh out of ideas. I read somewhere you don't like user boxes but I hope you like barnstars. I hope someday to achieve a Wikimedia Ambassador barnstar. Good luck. -Susanlesch (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Companies and Blogs getting listed on External Links - but not mine.

Hi Jimbo Wales,

I'd like to know how some companies and blogs (yes blogs) are allowed to be posted on External links and others are not. I'll send you hundreds of examples if you like.

I have tried to add a link to my blog/information page about living off the grid and I have been blocked from Wikipedia for ever. Mind you I tried to add links to about a dozen other blogs - (geothermal, global warming, energy medicine, Moon landing, wind power) where I have noticed that others were listed/accepted.

These are "current news" and information sites that are updated daily. This information is unbiased and useful to wikipedians who cannot find relevant current/news/information on Wikipedia. Also - I tried to link to a single Christmas Wikia. And was banned for life.

oh well -tough crowd - but also not uniform in its policies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.167.20 (talk) 19:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, WikiProject Spam makes some decisions like this (that have inconvenienced me enough to wonder about why my username is a spammer log). But I am not an expert on the problems you have. Another thing that can happen is a bot gone bonkers (for example, although they are well meaning an author may find him or herself inconveniencing a number of users). Sorry for the comment. -Susanlesch (talk) 20:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons

Hello Mr. Wales, (and everyone else :) ), I don't like having to come here with a question about such a basic principle of editing Wikipedia. However the community as a whole seems to be confused, so I'm wondering what you had intended in the first place.

Barbara Schwarz is someone you may have already heard about, but in case you haven't I'll sum up the contention as concisely as possible since I realize you are probably very busy. To be blunt, Ms Schwarz has serious issues with reality, but has done some very notable things. In pursuit of information she believes is being held by various departments/agencies of several states, and even the federal government, she has filed more FOIA requests than anyone else in the act's history. Making her more notable is the fact that she then chose to pro se sue many of those agencies, and even specific employees by the hundreds when they were unable to find what she was looking for. In the process she was heard by the Supreme Court and her story was reported in the Salt Lake Tribune around 2003. She then sued the paper despite the fact she was not misrepresented and the paper was merely reporting both sides of her story. Needless to say she didn't like her article here either, Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of The real Barbara Schwarz and has been trying to have it removed with some support by other Wikipedians. In general the community seemed to understand the notability of her court actions when such discussions came up:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (2nd nomination) - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (3rd nomination) - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (4th nomination).

When I asked myself if this article was worthy of inclusion on Wikipedia, and thus worthy of my time, I compared Ms Schwarz to others who have done notable things while not in touch with reality. Would the Sylvia Seegrist or Laurie Dann artcles be removed if Sylvia or Dann's family asked? I answered no, because their actions were notable enough for inclusion in reliable secondary sources. Even though Ms Schwarz hasn't killed anyone, she has made herself notable by her actions in court.

I'd like to know what your (and anyone else's here) opinion on Schwarz and our biographies of living people policy, are they compatible? (Just to be clear, I don't plan on going around saying "This is what Jimbo said...", rather just want to know if you intended such articles to exist or not so I know if I've been wrong. I'm also not asking for any intervention.) Thank you, Anynobody 01:53, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

DRV at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 December 19#Barbara Schwarz. Cool Hand Luke 02:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Cup and Cover, Marked by Paul de Lamerie, England (London), 1736-7 V&A Museum no. 819-1890

Victoria and Albert Museum

I thought it would make a pleasant change to have some good news on this page! An editor from the Victoria and Albert Museum (V&A) has been editing as User:VAwebteam, initially adding links which were reverted and images which were being deleted. They readily co-operated with established editors when approached about suitable additions. I left them an explanation of exactly how GFDL works. This has had a great result with some fine images uploaded (and some deleted ones re-uploaded) under GFDL from the museum's collection. This is a useful precedent for anyone to approach other institutions. Is this the first time a major museum has contributed in this way? Tyrenius (talk) 03:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It would be great if the images were moved to Commons. Miranda 04:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Latest Metz/Register article

Cade Metz recently wrote a reasoned opinion piece on the inherent conflict in Wikipedia between anonymity and COI [4]. Which do you think should have priority as Wikipedia moves forward, COI or anonymity? Also, just one more question...you said that you had only a few hours notice before the Doran article came out in the Register...Did Cade request that you contact him a couple of days before the Doran article was released, and, if so, what was your response? Cla68 (talk) 11:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)