Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

Link to most recent closed and archived RfC: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The heading above is a link to the archived RfC: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022.

See also earlier RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022.

Both RfCs were closed with "no consensus". Cinderella157 (talk) 08:27, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Infobox: Ukraine supported by NATO (and others)

It just seems odd that the infobox lists "Ukraine" alone as a belligerent. NATO ought to be listed as a supporter as it is providing everything short of direct military intervention, i.e. billions upon billions of dollars of no-strings-attached military aid, both direct and indirect, providing intelligence, military training, etc. Not to mention Ukraine is now officially seeking NATO membership. One might even suggest listing every nation sending aid to Ukraine, as the amount is truly colossal. Many billions of dollars of direct monetary aid as well as military hardware, from a host of countries. What are others' thoughts on this edit?

Sources:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_192648.htm

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3173378/11-billion-in-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-announces-further-1-billion-in-military-support-to-ukraine#:~:text=The%20UK%20is%20leading%20the,other%20than%20the%20United%20States

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992 BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 20:33, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Please see the FAQ at the top - this has been discussed before. — Czello 20:36, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Then lets having it again, because I can't find a comprehensive discussion in the near-infinitely long archives, and there seems to currently be considerable desire to denote more than nothing in the infobox with regard to Ukraine's foreign support. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 20:46, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The FAQ links to the discussion: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 7#RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?. Kleinpecan (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I read the discussion. Sure, many countries are sending aid but the idea that NATO (let alone countries like the United States, United Kingdom, Poland, and the Baltics) aren't "supporting" belligerents at this point is, IMHO, completely ridiculous. So while listing individual countries is excessive, NATO is most certainly a supporting belligerent. 2600:6C40:467F:D7DA:B57A:FD94:1305:FFE5 (talk) 20:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

by definition "belligerent" means the military of said country is actively participating with troops/air attacks/artillery barrages et al - NATO is not a belligerent any more than the USA was in WW2 prior to the Pearl Harbor attack, despite the massive materiel supplied by the Americans to Britain and the USSR prior to Dec 7, 1941 ... 50.111.48.23 (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

It's good thing then that the user you're responding to was in no way in insinuating that NATO, The US, etc. should be listed as "belligerents". They were saying they should listed as supporting a belligerent, which they are, both from pretty much any sort of objective analysis, as well as by their own admission. Go to the NATO or US government official websites, and you will see all about how they officially support Ukraine, and are sending hundreds of billions in direct military aid. NATO and a plethora of its member nation are supporters of Ukraine. To deny this is just WP:ICANTHEARYOU at this point. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 07:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

If we have NATO as a co-belligerent, then this would imply that Russia is not only fighting against Ukraine but also against NATO and the West, which would further underline the Russian propaganda and that would be unacceptable. 2A02:810C:4CBF:E144:805A:D21B:A275:B046 (talk) 03:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Does it further Russian propaganda to say which countries are proving support to Ukraine's defense? And even if the answer is yes, if it's the truth as an encyclopedia shouldn't we state it as such? As Russians will continue to make baseless claims regardless why not accurately explain what is happening? BogLogs (talk) 04:11, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The article has a major section about support: 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Foreign involvement. It would further Russian propaganda if we listed states under “Belligerents” in the infobox that are not. —Michael Z. 19:34, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

What a ridiculous argument. Russian propaganda should have absolutely no bearing on whether or not something is included in a Wikipedia article. NATO is quite plainly offering enormous military support to Ukraine. Your suggestion of not including NATO in the infobox because of perceived "Russian propaganda" is a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 08:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Buzzlightyear99 here, it would be good to at the very least discuss changes to the infobox to include countries which support Ukraine. Since the previous discussion the amount of support has vastly increased and has been shown to be decisive in Ukraine's defense and counter offensives. BogLogs (talk) 04:17, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

NATO is not involved in Ukraine. The war is outside of its jurisdiction; it is not what NATO is for and not how it is set up to operate. For NATO to make any comment on Ukraine would require all its member countries to agree but no statement has been made and you will not find a citation to that effect in order to include that idea in the article. It is a very important distinction to make between the individual actions of various countries that happen to be members of NATO and NATO deciding to take action. If and when NATO gets involved, this will be abundantly clear and will be a gamechanger. Let us hope that they never have to. Ex nihil ^(talk) 21:31, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

That is a good point. It is true that there has been no formal comment by NATO announcing joint action (certainly not anything along the lines of sending formal armies, thankfully!). That said if that were to happen NATO or any countries sending forces to fight would be belligerents and we would likely have to change the article title to WWW3 if we still have the ability to do so. The argument here at least for me is that given the amount of war materiel support given by NATO, or at the very least the NATO countries that are clearly sourced as providing large sums of that aid, should be listed as supporters of Ukraine's defense. BogLogs (talk) 23:29, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

No, because giving aid for a proxy war isn't the same as declaring war and being in a war. Andre🚐 03:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, and you are indeed correct giving aid is not the same thing as declaring war. In fact I think no war has been declared since the end of WW2. But this kind of materiel support deserves some kind of mention. This is the most similar situation I could find with support drop downs in the info box etc etc. Soviet–Afghan War. I think it would be a good model for this page but I welcome other ideas and points of discussion. BogLogs (talk) 03:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

One of the main sections is “Foreign involvement,” right there in the table of contents. Very easy to find for anyone seeking it. For someone who wants the top of the article to prominently advertise NATO as “belligerent,” this would be creating a WP:NPOV problem.

Incidentally, there have been well over a couple hundred conflicts since WWII, but just over a dozen declared. See Declaration of war#Declared wars since 1945. —Michael Z. 19:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The total in that list is 17 declarations of war, which seems notable. The key phase "conflicts since WWII..." should say something about Pearl Harbor which set a standard for 'acts of infamy' for subsequent generations. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

It says something about the Nuremberg trials, which were history’s first trial, convictions, and hangings for the crime of aggression. A declaration of war is legally a confession to the crime. —Michael Z. 19:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)f

The Wikipedia article for casus belli states that there are three exceptions as follows: "In the post–World War II era, the UN Charter prohibits signatory countries from engaging in war except: 1) as a means of defending themselves—or an ally where treaty obligations require it—against aggression; 2) unless the UN as a body has given prior approval to the operation. The UN also reserves the right to ask member nations to intervene against non-signatory countries that embark on wars of aggression." It would be nice if someone would update these other articles from time to time. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Well I stand corrected on declarations of war among quite a few states (Can always learn something new everyday!). A number of the following points given seem quite unrelated to the discussion at hand. The question still stands and will probably be asked here again and again again, Is Ukraine's material support by other countries of such an impact that it deserves to be mentioned in the infobox similar to that of other articles. As the war, and the international politics surrounding the war, is so deeply effected by this aid I would certainly think that it should be listed clearly in the infobox. BogLogs (talk) 23:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

No one is saying it is. However giving hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid, decisively turning the conflict in Ukraine's favor, should probably be mentioned in the infobox. You don't need to have boots on ground to be a supporter of a belligerent, that is the entire point of a "Supported by" section. The Vietnam War article is a perfect example of this. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 02:48, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Literally in the first line of the first source I provided (the official NATO website): "...NATO and Allies continue to provide Ukraine with unprecedented levels of support, helping to uphold its fundamental right to self-defence." Ukraine is supported by NATO, if the previous statement plus the hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid was not enough to convince you. It does not get any more straightforward than this. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 08:28, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

The United States alone has allocated aid worth $65 billion, over ten times Ukraine's pre-war defense budget and on par with the entire annual military spending of Russia. This includes economic assistance, massive amounts of arms, training, supply lines just outside of Ukraine's borders, and intelligence sharing from American aircraft conducting surveillance. To not list them (among other countries) under a "supported by" line, when every other article on this wiki (e.g. Iran-Iraq War) gives that distinction to any country that so much as sent a truck full of grenades to a belligerent, is absolutely ridiculous.--Nihlus1 (talk) 04:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• The primary question is whether this (an extensive list) should or should not go in the infobox, noting that there is a section of the article dealing with foreign aid of various types, where prose can capture the nuance of the nature of the aid that cannot be done in an infobox. There have been two RfCs on this already, closed with no consensus. Consensus is WP:NOTAVOTE but determined by strength of argument made against objective criteria (WP:P&G). Given that the RfCs are relatively recent, the question to be asked is "what in P&G has changed such that we are likely to arrive at a consensus different from the status quo?" The answer is, nothing. Continuing to discuss this is just a WP:BIKESHED. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  The infobox is one of the first things readers will see and effects the overall picture of the rest of the article (WP:BIKESHED was an interesting read but I'm not sure it applies here). If the question really simply boils down to is the article improved by including the countries that clearly support Ukraine in the infobox or not these other articles may serve as a good comparison: Korean War, Crimean War, Yom Kippur War, Russian Civil War. Would those articles be improved by removing supporting information from their infoboxs? Of course the reader could go deeper in the articles to find more but clearly the supporting countries listed in the infoboxs are well justified. A similar feature in this article's infobox, listing supporting countries, would be a big improvement to help readers understand the situation as they begin to dive into the article. BogLogs (talk) 10:07, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

  Everything you have said has been said and responded to before. My question was: "what in P&G has changed such that we are likely to arrive at a consensus different from the status quo?" A WP:BIKESHED is a time sink. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity and a time sink. How is this not a case of flogging the same dead horse and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT? Cinderella157 (talk) 09:23, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  Ok, I'll do my best to respond your question as you've laid it out here "what in P&G has changed so that we are likely to arrive at a consensus different from the status quo?". Nothing at least as far as I know.

  However I hope you will at least consider the following. First from the Bikeshed page you have mention: This page in a nutshell: Don't get hung up on trifling details. The infobox at the top of the page is not a trifling detail as it informs the reader of the basics of the situation and what to expect from the rest of the article. If you feel it is a time sink to discuss this I would encourage you to consider why this question comes up so often. Also apologies if this is taking any considerable time from you as that really is not my intention.

  Secondly, it's only flogging the same dead horse if there is no potential for change. Editors on this page are, I would hope, more than capable of having a reasonable discussion and coming to some consensus. Furthermore consensus can change over time and as was previously mentioned by BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 "The last RfC was 4 months ago, in a currently occurring armed conflict which is only 7 months old." Since that discussion Kiev has gone on two major counter offensives aided with a great deal of outside materiel support.

  Lastly, and I'll make this one as concise as possible, using procedure to avoid an honest discussion is a cop out. However these P&G will provide the most basic argument for having further discussion about this matter: WP:CCC, WP:IGNORE, and WP:5P5.

  Rather then spending time trying to close discussion why not at least try to engage with it to improve the article? BogLogs (talk) 10:26, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

  I am in firm agreement with User:BogLogs. The entire purpose of a "Supported by" section is to list non-combatants who support belligerents in an armed conflict. Should the Vietnam War article have its infobox's "Support by" section wiped? It includes nations that offered only diplomatic support too, not material. And after answering the previous question, ask yourself if said article would be better for it. Your citation of WP:BIKESHED just seems like a convenient excuse to shut down discussion. The last RfC was 4 months ago, in a currently occurring armed conflict which is only 7 months old. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 01:40, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with Cindarella157. Andre🚐 02:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
• +1 for Cinderella. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:31, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

  You are welcome to share who, or perhaps which idea, you support but it would further the discussion more if you provided a short reason or two for that support. This actually isn't an RfC yet (though I suspect it may become one again in the future). In either case giving your point of view and reasons furthers the work of this talk page to providing the best possible article on a subject we clearly all care deeply about. BogLogs (talk) 04:46, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

NATO should be shown as a supporter. I disagree with @Cinderella157. The primary question here is not whether an extensive list should or should not go into the infobox, it is whether a single entry should, in a "Supported by" byline. Whether other entities than NATO are also listed does not affect the argument of whether or not NATO should be, so let's address that.

• Significance. By listing NATO under Ukraine as "Supported by" it would convey a critical piece of information currently lacking in the infobox, which as is fails to capture the situation at a glance. If Belarus supporting Russia is significant enough to include in the infobox, then how is NATO supporting Ukraine not significant enough to include, especially when there is a detialed section of the article expounding on it? Compare the support Russia received from Belarus with the support Ukraine received from NATO. Neither the significance nor factual accuracy of NATO support for Ukraine is under reasonable dispute, thus it should be included.
• Infobox Size. This wouldn't increase the size of the infobox, as the opposing column is already longer, so the argument not to include it as a space consideration (ie, because it is extensive list as @Cinderella157 said) is a failed argument. All the member countries need not be listed when one entity can. Nuance need not be captured here, as that isn't the point of the infobox and the rest of the article can do just that. Whether other non-NATO states should be listed ought to be separately argued for or against as @BUZZLIGHTYEAR99's original point was about the inclusion of NATO.
• NATO would not be shown as a belligerent. Other concerns were raised in the archived RfC and alluded to here about listing NATO as a belligerent, but, as @BogLogs pointed out, that's the whole reason for a "Supported by" byline listing NATO — to show their involvement without listing them as a belligerent. Since NATO support for Ukraine has been extensively documented, and is even openly declared on their own webpage, in their own words, as @BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 cited, this seems much more reasonable than their absence from the infobox.
• Consistency. Similar situations in other articles (the Soviet–Afghan War was a great example from @BogLogs) don't seem to spark this level of pushback, and feature even more complicated infoboxes that are still concise and easy to understand. I haven't seen a coherent objection to this that doesn't seem to want to change other infoboxes to win an argument over this particular one.
• Neutrality. The role of NATO in this conflict has been and remains a controversial subject, but NATO support for Ukraine is an absolutely undisputable fact. Leaving NATO out of the infobox can give a reader that only checks that portion of the page an at-a-glance impression that NATO has no role in this conflict, that (in the infobox's current form) the only parties involved are Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. Such an impression would thus violate Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and the infobox should be updated to better reflect the spirit of neutrality. @Jarlaxll Expresses a related concern in his point.

Unless there are any coherent arguments against inclusion, I suggest we move forward with it and update the infobox. Consensus is reached by force of argument. Holding up a consensus without supplying a valid counterargument is not a valid argument. Citing things like Wikipedia:BIKESHED to shut down debate, or saying something has already been discussed to shut down debate, is not a valid argument either. Wikipedia:Consensus Does not require unanimity, which in this case may not be possible due to the charged nature of the subject. We should be going by force of argument alone, and in here and in the old RfC it looks like the inclusion side has won. entropyandvodka (talk) 00:47, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Having missing elements in infobox (as per other infoboxes) is misinformation. Very important, since some noticed that 70% of users see the infobox first and most check just that. Failing to have a comprehensive list of (at least the most important) "supported by" calls for infobox removal. Either complete it or remove it. So i support having a "supported by" section. Notice that now with intelligence HIMARS etc, US satellites guide the missiles/ drones and POSSIBLY American hands pull the triggers/ point targets occasionally and have access and planning to actions/ strategy, not to mention US mercenaries being hired directly by US companies in the US with US funds and that the ground of other NATO memebers is being accessed by ukranian military (even if unofficially) for the purposes of this war. Therefore US and UK classify ALMOST as beliggerents. Finally as previously mentioned, this changed dramatically the course of war. Therefore i suggest to either remove the infobox or have it provide complete information (at least US and UK and Poland as the main supporters).Jarlaxll (talk) 00:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

What is missing

Good morning. IMHO We need two separate pages regarding:

• Targeted killings listing people like Valery Kuleshov, Dmitry Savluchenko, Serhii Tomko, Darya Dugina, Sergei Gorenko and many others occurred in the occupied zones or outside Ukraine (or even their attempts by partisans) I think is needed.
• War on cities with the several attacks (and/or retaliatory attacks) occurred to the civilian cities (Mariupol theater; Vuhledar; Kramatorsk; Zapo; Odessa; Kiev; Lviv… and on Russian hand/side like Donetsk; Belgorod etc.) or their infrastructures (Markets; Hospitals; Electic power plants, Railway stations, bridges [eg. Zatoka Bridge ([1]) targeted at least 8 times] etc.) and the use of ballistic missiles (Tochka-U, Iskander) or Kalibr cruise missiles (Moldovan Airspace violation and consequent official protest), use of Iranian drones (renamed Geran 2).

Thank you. Nicola Romani (talk) 06:40, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

• We need sources saying these were proven attacks. Slatersteven (talk) 10:27, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

• You appear to be editing without reliable sources to draw your conclusions. You are also not answering Talk page comments, while at the same time commenting on other threads on the same Talk page. You need to follow RS, and I have given multiple reliable sources for my edit. I request you explain why you are reverting without any reliable sources, when I am presenting multiple reliable sources. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Which sources say she was the target of a Ukrainian hit, not "unnamed intelligence sources", a clear official statement? Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

There are multiple reliable sources making this report. Russian diplomatic officials have made this claim, and Estonian diplomatic officials have gone on the record as denying it. Also, Ukraine has put forward diplomatic officials to deny the claim made by Russia. Just read the Wikipedia articles for Darya Dugina and Killing of Darya Dugina. Regarding the Crimean bridge incident, I'm not sure what your issue is? What are your reliable sources saying was the cause of the bridge incident? ErnestKrause (talk) 13:57, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Exactly, it is a claim, not a fact. So we can't say it is a fact, only a claim, an allegation.Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

[[2]], it has not been confirmed what caused it. So we can't say it has been confirmed. Slatersteven (talk) 14:03, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Well we can easily solve the issue using Alleged targeted killing and so on. Moreover War on cities is a fact, nobody else own Kalibr SLCM cruise missiles except Russia. Nicola Romani (talk) 14:34, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

We seem to be having confusing issues here. Slatersteven (talk) 14:35, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Then, check the correct section you both were editing/replying to each other before. Nicola Romani (talk) 14:47, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

We have two separate questions asked in the OP, then we have comments about the editing of already existing sections, and not in the creation of new articles (the OP,s question). Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

There are two sections now for dealing with this. If Nicola would like to add further edits to the 'Russia' section such as the one about Rostov, then I'll try to support here: [3]. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

• I do not think that Dugina and her death are notable enough to be included on this very general page. She was just a barely notable propagandist. And a lot about her killing still remains unknown. And how she is relevant to this war? The text does not explain it. This is definitely undue on this page. As about other mentioned people (Valery Kuleshov, etc.), I do not see any sources. My very best wishes (talk) 02:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

So, once again, no one knows for sure if assassination was targeting her father ("apparently" does not work here). Moreover, no one knows who was behind this assassination. An unnamed US official saying something was possibly a disinformation, especially because he/she did not provide any details. Overall, the connection of this material to the subject of the page is highly questionable at best; this is certainly undue on this page. Remember, this is main page about the war. Some other pages - yes, no problem, this can be included. You guys need WP:CONSENSUS for including this material. My very best wishes (talk) 16:44, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

In addition, I do not understand your edit summary here. The Crimea sections are fine, I did not remove them. As about bombings in Russia, yes, there were quite a few of them. So what? My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

You appear to be edit warring on the article main space in opposition to Wikipedia policy against edit warring. You appear to be reverting against two editors in agreement on those related edits. May I ask you to stop edit warring against Wikipedia policy and establish consensus on the Talk page first prior to further edits. You appear to have no support for your reverts. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I do not see consensus to include it based on discussion in this thread. To the contrary, you (and only you) re-include this new material [4] without consensus. In addition, you did not respond anything of essence to my objections to include just above. My very best wishes (talk) 22:42, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

The edit under discussion for those two sections were created last week by Steven and myself; which was done when the Crimean bridge explosion was being discussed in the press, and reverbations of the Darya Dugina death were in the international press and in the NY Times. Aleksandr Dugin is a prominent pro-Putin author and any targeting of him or his family has been found to be relevant in the international press and in the NY Times. Targeting high-ranking members of Putin's government and advisors has been covered extensively by RS. RS should be relevant in this article and retained. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:29, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

How come? (a) the edit was made by you [5], (b) I do not see anyone supporting this inclusion in discussion above, (c) this text does not say anything about the Crimean bridge explosion (yes, that explosion should be included, and it is included), (d) no, even Dugin himself is not mentioned on this page anywhere (and rightly so), hence mentioning his daughter is even less justifiable. My very best wishes (talk) 00:57, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

You say: "Targeting high-ranking members of Putin's government and advisors". What are you talking about (refs)? Dugina was not one of them. My very best wishes (talk) 01:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

In addition, Dugin is not "a prominent pro-Putin author", he is not an advisor of Putin, and he criticized Putin [6]. My very best wishes (talk) 01:27, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Keith D There is a current discussion with "User:My very best" which is being interrupted by drive-through editors who are section blanking the edit currently under discussion on this Talk page. I'm not able to respond intelligibly to "User:My very best" without being able to reference the section which is being section blanked by editors who are not participating in this Talk discussion. I request a roll-back of the 'Events in Russia' section to a neutral point from one week ago as edited by User:Steven here:[7]. This would allow Talk page discussion to continue. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

That is not how it works (you get consensus for inclusion, not exclusion we do not keep something that is up for discussion), and you can post the text here for discussion. And do not assume I agreed with its conclusion, I did not (as I said more than once). All I did was to make it as neutrally worded as possible in order to compromise. As at the time is was just a dispute between you and me, and I felt it best to end it. Every one of my objections still stands. Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm requesting that the edit which you made to be restored. Once restored you can then make your pro and contra statements as you prefer; you can side with which ever editor you decide is best for the article. "User:My best wishes" is an experienced editor and I'm requesting to be able to present her with the citations being requested. Once the section is restored, I'll then be able to add the citations being requested in an intelligible manner; then you can state your support or opposition. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh no, you are mistaken. This is the opposite. Per WP:CONSENSUS, the initial/default version was one that existed before you inserted your text without having consensus. By removing this text I acted stricktly per WP:BRD. You made "bold edit" (inclusion of new content). I reverted and provided all reasons why. Now it is your turn to get consensus for inclusion. That's why two other contributors reverted your edit. Please respond to my substantial objections above ("How come?" etc.) if you want to convince me and others. Basically, did Dugin play a significant role in this invasion (the subject of this page)? Can you prove this with RS? If not, the inclusion of his daughter is even less justifiable. My very best wishes (talk) 17:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

You need to engage with My very best wishes' objections instead of simply asserting consensus or lack of consensus. As of right now their objection seems well reasoned Tristario (talk) 23:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Any sources should be presented here, and text should be presented here. You argue to keep content, not remove it. Slatersteven (talk) 17:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• I am adding the disputed addition here for reference, rather than reinserting in to the article while discussion continues. Keith D (talk) 21:52, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

===Events in Russia ===

Main articles: Darya Dugina and Killing of Darya Dugina

Darya Dugina, daughter of prominent pro-Putin follower Aleksandr Dugin, was killed on 20 August 2022, when her car exploded on Mozhayskoye Shosse in the settlement of Bolshiye Vyazyomy outside Moscow around 9:45 p.m. local time. She was driving to Moscow after attending the annual festival "Tradition", which describes itself as a family festival for art lovers. The "Tradition" festival is held at the Zakharovo estate, approximately 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) north of Bolshiye Vyazyomy. Investigators said an explosive device was attached to the underside of the car. It is unclear whether she was targeted deliberately, or whether her father, who had been expected to travel with her but switched to another car at the last minute, was the intended target, or whether the intention might have been to kill both.

References

This is a more or less OK and well-sourced text (it only incorrectly defines Dugin as "pro-Putin follower"), but how is it related to the subject of this page? Cited text does not explain any relevance. Yes, Dugin and she strongly supported the invasion, just as a lot of other people in Russia. Russian FSB claimed this to be a terrorist act by the Ukrainian government, and provided some evidence widely seen as fabricated. Ukrainian government officially denied any involvement. Some said that was a contract killing due to the business dealings by her father. Others said she was killed by Russian political assassins. Yet some others said it was an assassination by the FSB. Who knows? Dugin criticized Putin [8]. Yes, that was possibly something related to the war (we do not really know it), but definitely not deserving the inclusion here. This is main page about the invasion. She was just a barely notable propagandist. This is not blowing up the Crimean bridge. My very best wishes (talk) 01:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks to Keith for setting up this discussion in order to move forward. Darya Dugina was the daughter of Aleksandr Dugin, a far-right political philosopher, whose political views and support for Vladimir Putin she shared. She appears not to have been the primary target, but her father appears to have been the primary target, who had been expected to travel with her but switched to another car at the last minute. See also another report in this citation on whether the intention might have been to kill both.

The list of RS on Alexandr Dugin as an influengtial voice upon Putin and his cabinet is extensive and I can also provide links here if needed. Darya Dugina was also posthumously awarded a medal of recognition by Putin after her death. Given the large number of reliable sources, this edit should be restored to the main article as related to Activity in Russia taking place during the 2022 Russian invasion. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

You did not address my concerns. The number of RS is irrelevant because the issue is the importance of her killing for this page. Did Dugin start this war? No. Did Putin start this war because Dugin convinced him? No, judging from sources I read. But even if he did, that would be a completely different text about how Dugin influenced this war. My very best wishes (talk) 15:30, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Add Syria to Russia's "Supported By" section of belligerents infobox

It has been well documented that Syrian mercenaries, and regular military units of the Syrian Army (The 25th Division to name one), have been deployed to and experienced combat in the Kherson region. Syria itself has been added to the infobox of the Kherson Counteroffensive, so it would make sense to add it here similar to how Belarus has been added. DragonLegit04 (talk) 01:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

As long as there are verifiable sources to back this up this would seem to be a good addition to the infobox. BogLogs (talk) 10:15, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

If it can be shown that regular military units (not mercs) have been deployed, yes we can add them. But we need to see some RS saying it. Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

The reports appear to be somewhat isolated in the press such as here: [9]. Is the mainstream press covering this story about Syrian troops with RS? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:13, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Institute for the Study of War talks about this, including Syrian régime cooperation in recruiting. These reports include reference links to their sources.

• March 11:[10] “The Kremlin announced plans to deploy foreign fighters, including up to 16,000 Syrian fighters, to Ukraine”
• March 13:[11] “Ukrainian intelligence provided further details on Russia’s initiative to deploy existing pro-Assad units to Ukraine and recruit additional Syrian and Libyan mercenaries on March 13”
• March 14:[12] “Russia continues to face difficulties replacing combat losses and increasingly seeks to leverage irregular forces including Russian PMCs and Syrian fighters”
• March 17:[13] “The GUR reported that the Russian military ordered its base in Hmeimim, Syria to send up to 300 fighters from Syria to Ukraine daily. The GUR additionally reported that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has promised to recruit 40,000 Syrian fighters to deploy to Ukraine. The GUR reported Russian authorities are promising Syrian recruits that they will exclusively act as police in occupied territories.”
• March 23:[14] “Russian efforts to bring Syrian forces into Ukraine may be encountering challenges”
• March 31:[15] Plenty in this item.
  • “Russia is attempting to redeploy Syrian units with experience working under Russian commanders to Ukraine to mitigate high Russian casualties”
  • “Russia began a redeployment of Wagner units and their Syrian proxies from Africa and Syria to Ukraine in early February‚”
  • “Russian forces are redeploying within Syria in order to recruit and mobilize additional Syrian fighters for a second wave of reinforcements [to deploy to Ukraine]”
  • “Russia is leveraging its pre-existing relationships with multiple pro-regime units to coordinate the recruitment and select individuals from these units with combat experience”
  • “Finally, Russia is attempting to recruit and train a wider range of pro-regime Syrian fighters”
• April 20:[16] “Ukrainian forces reported the presence of small numbers of Syrian or Libyan mercenaries fighting in Popasna (eastern Ukraine), likely individual recruits fighting under the umbrella of the Wagner Group rather than larger units”

 —Michael Z. 16:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

When (and if) official Syrian units are deployed we can add Syria. Slatersteven (talk) 17:25, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Boots on the ground in Ukraine appears to be the decisive factor here. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

These sources seem more than enough to justify the addition to the infobox as providing support. If boots on the ground, large military units, are sent they should then be listed as a belligerent. BogLogs (talk) 22:14, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I am against this. If the NATO member countries that have provided hundreds of billions of dollars of aid to Ukraine, proving a decisive factor in the war thus far, are not mentioned the infobox neither should Syria for sending a handful of mercenaries that will prove inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 19:23, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

The decisive factor is if reliable secondary sources say so.

It doesn’t matter if it’s pennies or billions. Not fighting is not fighting. It is not participation in an international conflict. (“Handful”?)

If these are really only individuals part of Wagner PMC then they are a Russian outfit. But if the Syrian government and military are part of recruiting them, then that may be something else. If it is forming up units and handing them over to Wagner’s command, that is something else too. There’s a reason Western governments are having nothing to do with Ukraine’s foreign legion.  —Michael Z. 23:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure officially supporting, while having a plethora of your member nations freely donate hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid both counts as "participation" (look up the definition of that word), and warrants a mention in the infobox. That's the entire point of "Supported by" section. Furthermore, noncombatants are listed in the Vietnam War infobox, and is thus warranted here. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 00:16, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

No, legally that is not participation in an international conflict. States give each other military aid all the time, and that does not create a conflict, so doing it during a conflict that is not participating in one either. Look it up.

143 states support Ukraine by condemning the Russian invasion, and five support Russia’s crime, in the UNGA (see United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4). But that doesn’t belong in a list of belligerents. —Michael Z. 01:18, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

I honestly believe at this point you are a case of WP:ICANTHEARYOU. I and many others have explained to you that they would not be listed as a belligerent, but as supporting a belligerent, which they (NATO) are by their own admission. They are giving copious amounts of military hardware to a belligerent nation in an armed conflict, for the express purpose of winning said conflict. Q.E.D., they belong in the "Supported by" section of the infobox. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 03:51, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry if I’ve been unclear. Let me spell it out in case you can’t hear me. Belligerent has a legal meaning: participant in an international conflict (a war).

Belarus may belong because – although it is not a participant in the military conflict – it is guilty of the crime of aggression by providing its territory for direct attacks against Ukraine by Russian land forces and Russian missile attacks. It literally and directly supported aggression by criminal acts defined in the UN’s definition of aggression.

“Supporters” on the surface means states that support Ukraine. Going by UN resolutions that could mean 143 states that have condemned Russian aggression. Supporters in this sense are not belligerents. “Supporters” should not be presented as a subcategory of “Belligerents” if it used to mean states that support Ukraine.

Providers of military training, equipment, weapons, and ammunition are not belligerents either. Military provisions are traded and donated all the time, without creating a state of international conflict or war, and so such provisioning does not make a state a belligerent in a conflict. “Supporters” in this sense are not belligerents and the label should not be presented in such a way as to imply that they are.  —Michael Z. 17:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Belligerent hasn't been the legal term for a long time. You may be thinking of "party to the conflict". Further, your point about Belarus has to do with whether it can be considered an aggressor, which it can, under the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3314 definition of aggression. This is irrelevant, though as not all belligerents, or parties to a conflict, are the aggressors. It then follows that not all supporters of belligerents need to be supporters of the aggressive party, nor do they need to be belligerents themselves to be considered supporters. In fact, showing them as supporters implies that they are not belligerents themselves, not the other way around. That's the whole point of the "Supported by" section.

Your argument seems more that Belarus should be considered a belligerent because the UN would define it as an aggressor, or that there shouldn't be a "Supported by" section at all, but it doesn't give a good reason that NATO shouldn't be a shown in that section if the section is there. Look up any definition of support, legal or otherwise. Keeping NATO out of that section ignores the facts, plain language and common sense. entropyandvodka (talk) 10:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Are those comments an example of plain language and common sense? And facts? That's the whole point of the "Supported by" section. Says who? The docs for template:Infobox military conflict explain the whole point, and I don’t see that in them.

• Yes, belligerents are parties to an armed conflict. That’s what should appear under “Belligerents,” including legal aggressors and self-defenders.
• Yes, it should include the odd case an aggressor that is not legally a party, because it only committed act (f) in the list of (a) through (g) in Article 3.[17]

Period.

And IMO, there’s no need to qualify it with a “Supporters” subhead.  —Michael Z. 15:51, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Tacit in your entire argument is an assumption that Wikipedia should conform specifically to UN legal terms. Can you justify why that should be the case? Should Wikipedia infoboxes only show supporters in a conflict if the UN deems them parties to the conflict?

While there may be no need, in your opinion, for the Supporters byline, that leaves it up to the editors. In this particular case, the scale and impact of NATO support on this conflict is both substantial and well documented, and an at-a-glance picture of the conflict would be incomplete and misleading without it. entropyandvodka (talk) 17:20, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The huge help Western weapons have given Ukraine against Russia is undeniable. We will have that arms supplies discussion over and over again until they're added to the infobox. Not fighting is not fighting. It is not participation in an international conflict. indeed. Adding those countries at the same level as Ukraine would be a mistake. But the proposal was to make a "Supported by" section or similar. Super Ψ Dro 10:30, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

If your feelings are drawing you towards looking at this issue, why do you not create an infobox for placement within the section for "Foreign military sales and aid" to list the nations providing such support. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:29, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

This is an interesting idea but it begs the question of why we wouldn't simply list the supporting countries in the original infobox again as many other wikipedia articles do without controversy. BogLogs (talk) 04:49, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

It seems that the sub-infobox in the "Foreign military sales and aid" section would be needed first, in order to attract any serious consideration for the possible later inclusion in the main infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:21, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

This is a very bizarre argument. In what other article on wikipedia has a sub-infobox been required for data to be amended in the main info box (much less even for consideration of it as you have written)? That said if you would like to make a sub-infobox as you have proposed and post it here for discussion at the very least I suppose that might move things from a dead stand still and open the way to moving towards a future consensus. BogLogs (talk) 23:33, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Not completely clear how you have moved from your statement "This is an interesting idea" to your statement "very bizarre" comment. It seems like it would be easier to get your edit into that infobox information in the subsection, before you try to make arguments for getting it into the main infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Your first comment was about the creation of a an infobox for the section for "foreign military sales and aid". While not the outcome I think is best for the article, I do think its an interesting idea and it wouldn't be the worse thing in the world to discuss it. Your following comment that it would be required for discussion of further points is what is bizarre to me. We have already been discussing in depth changes to the infobox, why would a sub-infobox be required for infobox changes much less continued discussion?

That said again, I don't think the original idea you came up with is a bad one by any means, if this is a serious idea on your part why not make an infobox model for the subsection to be discussed further? BogLogs (talk) 09:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Sticking to the original idea then, my concern is to indicate the difficulty factor of doing this. For any editor who wishes to do this, there will be the initial difficulty of getting it first into the 'Foreign military sales and aid" section, then there would be the even more difficult task of trying to transfer it to the main Infobox. Each of these represents added difficulties. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:11, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for this reply, I can understand what you mean more clearly now. It wouldn't be my preferred solution but you are correct any change at this point would probably require a great deal of determination and effort by those editors. BogLogs (talk) 11:31, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

You should absolutely add Syria, Iran, NATO, Transinistra, whatever have been cited to have given any sort of support to any of the sides, these are things that we know by living at this era and time, but in the following years people will open this page and not know which country supported the war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.108.243.210 (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

"supported the war" and aiding a victim of the Putin regime's aggression are not the same thing

50.111.48.23 (talk) 10:27, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

We do say it, just not in the infobox, we do expect people to read the article. Slatersteven (talk) 20:39, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Transnistria has no role in this conflict. Super Ψ Dro 14:30, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

There are a large number of Russian troops still stationed there from before the Ukraine military operation? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:11, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

That is unrelated to the russo-Ukrainian War. Super Ψ Dro 15:58, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

• I am not sure. If Russia just recruited a number of individuals from Syria (I thought that was the case), that would not justify inclusion. However, if these guys came as a unit of Syrian army and fought as such, that would be different. What sources say? According to ISW [18], "Russia’s attempt to generate Syrian recruits appears to focus on individual replacements for Russian fighters rather than the redeployment of existing Syrian militias as coherent units." Based on that, I would say no. My very best wishes (talk) 03:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Iran should be added as “Supporting Russia”

Not only because of the various mainstream news reports of Russian usage of Iranian suicide drones, but the additional reports of Russia purchasing Iranian ballistic missiles as well as the Institute for the Study of War reporting on Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps members present in occupied Ukraine training Russia on how to use the drones mentioned earlier. The arms sales, training, and diplomatic support (“The Ukraine crisis is rooted in NATO's provocations.”, Iranian Foreign Minister, largely echoing Russian messaging) justify the addition of Iran to the “supporting Russia” list in my opinion. DBA78 (talk) 02:53, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I would agree. Teammm ^talk
_email 05:50, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Support: Been reports by British and American Intelligence of Iranian troops in Crimea to help Russia with Kamikaze drones. Pikachu3408 (talk) 12:23, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely not. If NATO and its member countries, which have given hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid to Ukraine, is not listed as "Supporting Ukraine", then Iran definitely should not for giving Russia some missiles and drones. To do so would be an egregious double standard and violation of WP:NPOV. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 06:13, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Iran sold them weapons, they didn't "give them." Just to be correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.48.23 (talk) 10:24, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Adding Iran would be a serious double standard.

We should maintain a high bar for addition (provision of troops on the ground, acknowledged and in public) for "Supported by".

A lower bar, if applied, should be applied evenly!

That would mean Iran, Syria and China for the invading forces, and USA, UK, Poland, France, Germany, Canada, see: https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/ XVI Chancer (talk) 08:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

By this standard, provision of troops on the ground, acknowledged and in public, Belarus would have to be removed. BogLogs (talk) 09:07, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Belarus is here because of the military access it provided to russia. But yes, Iran and several Western countries should be listed. Super Ψ Dro 13:11, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

From a neutral point of view, the Iranians should absolutely count as supporting the war just from the drone training alone. It counts as support when NATO had troops in Ukraine (and now currently have Ukrainian troops on NATO soil for training) on training missions while showing how to use Western arms and suppling. It's a double standard for Iran not to count when they are doing the same thing: deploying troops on a training mission and supplying Russia with arms. It is not violating WP:NPOV. DBA78 (talk) 20:23, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Why not just add both then? Have NATO supporting Ukraine and Iran supporting Russia. I mean, they are being supported by them, it's not like it's a lie. SusImposter49 (talk) 21:35, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, adding the countries that provide considerable materiel aid support and/or training should be added to the infobox as supporting their respective parties. BogLogs (talk) 21:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Boots on the ground: “Iran Sends Drone Trainers to Crimea to Aid Russian Military,” NYT. And they are designated terrorist boots of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps.  —Michael Z. 18:28, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I totally agree: boots on the ground. According to publications, the military personnel of Iran directly guided at least some of the drones from Crimea (an occupied Ukrainian territory). Importantly, these guys remained the military personnel of Iran while performing their duties in another country, just like Soviet "advisors" in old times. If USA were to provide F-16 manned by US Army pilots, that would justify inclusion of USA to the box. However, if they just were to provide F-16 for Ukrainian pilots, then presumably "no". My very best wishes (talk) 03:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I’m not sure how “designated terrorist” is in any way relevant to this question. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 18:56, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

• I think that the time has come to add all those countries who are providing weapons under "support". According to the archives, LouisAragon proposed it back in February 2022[19] but the proposal clearly suffered a degree of railroading by those who had no sensible policy based reasoning to oppose the proposal. The only known allegation at this moment is that Iran supplied drones to Russia. But right now it does not deserves to be on infobox unless the aforementioned proposal has been accepted. Segaton (talk) 04:05, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

  I am in agreement. My opposition to Iran added being to "Supporting Russia" is contingent only on the on the plethora of western nations providing copious amounts of aid to Ukraine, and any other relevant party, being added as well. I suspect there will be some sort of RfC regarding this soon. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 14:28, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

No, let's stick to the subject of this thread. My very best wishes (talk) 16:41, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I am. I only support adding Iran to the "Supported by" section of the infobox if the basis by which it is is enforced consistently. I.e., if Iran is to be added, so too should all the states sending hundreds of billions of dollars in weapons and military hardware to Ukraine. To say you are against the equal implementation of article criteria is essentially an admission of bad faith. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that equipment and training for said equipment is quite the same "boots on the ground" discussed in previous requests for this type of change. It's one thing to send a drone and the guys who can teach you to control it, and another entirely to send battalions of soldiers in to fight under orders of the supporting government. King keudo (talk) 14:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

There was a large distinction in Vietnam between the USA first sending special forces advisors to provide advice to them, as opposed to when USA later started sending combat troops to do battle in Vietnam. Does this distinction apply to this discussion of Russia's invasion; is the support advisory or is it participation in combat? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:23, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm for using that type of distinction when it comes to personnel support. Generally advisors and training staff are labelled as non-combatants, correct? If so, these trainers for using the drones would count not as "boots on the ground". King keudo (talk) 16:34, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

No, special forces would be boots on the ground. According to publications, these Iranians personnel were not just advisors, but actually guided the drones. And even if they did only training on the occupied Ukrainian territory (such as Crimea), they would still qualify. If they did such training in Iran, then probably "no", that would be just training. That's why NATO countries do not do training on the Ukrainian territory. My very best wishes (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

If supplying weapons as well as military personal to conduct on the ground training and possibility also combat missions does not qualify as "supporting", I'm not sure what does. Iran should certainly be added. JLKlein12 (talk) 18:57, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. People seem to be conflating supporting with participating. NATO and Iran are supporting, even if they may not be participating in a legal sense. entropyandvodka (talk) 18:53, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

• If Iran is to be added due to selling weapons to Russia, then states which give weapons to Ukraine, e.g. the US, Germany, and a plethora of other states, should absolutely be added as supporting Ukraine. If they are not, then I oppose this. If they are, then I would support adding Iran to a list of supporters. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 18:55, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

• This is not about selling weapons, but about Iranian military servicemen taking part in hostilities at the Ukrainian territory. My very best wishes (talk) 20:08, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

  I don’t think the presence of military advisors helping with drone operations makes them any more of a supporter in the war than the US or any other country is. If there’s no consensus for listing the US (and others) as a supporter of Ukraine, then it should be the same for Iran and Russia. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 21:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, according to report by Institute for the Study of War, [20], "the Iranian instructors directly control the launch of drones on civilian targets in Ukraine, including in Mykolaiv and Odesa oblasts. The IRGC is notably the primary operator of Iran‘s drone inventory, so these Iranian instructors are likely IRGC or IRGC-affiliated personnel." My very best wishes (talk) 00:39, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I would agree adding them as "supporting Russia", especially considering the revelations of Iranian troops being stationed in Crimea to support the attacks on Ukraine with their drones. BananasAreViolet (talk) 20:34, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. There are sources like this, there are even high definition pictures of the drones flying overhead in Ukraine. You could cross reference it yourselves with Hesa shahed 136. Unlike Belarus, I would specify Iran (Arms support) in the supported by tab. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 06:25, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I completely agree with this addition, following the recent reports in several reliable sources regarding Iranian troops stationed in occupied crimea. I believe there should be a footnote however, barring future acknowledgement from either Iran or Russia of the postings, that the information is claimed by the US. Pax Brittanica (talk) 21:37, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

*Support* Iran should be added akin to Belarus due to their servicemen being in Crimea to support Russian attacks on Ukraine in addition to the arms sales. If it were solely arms sales then I wouldn't be in support of including them in the infobox. 71.13.0.142 (talk) 21:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

*Support* Iran has active military personnel in Crimea. --Aaron106 (talk) 23:35, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Just my two cents, but per this CBS article, the U.S says Iran is now "directly engaged on the ground" (with trainers and tech support for the Shaheds) in the fighting. If Belarus which has not sent any of its forces as yet to fight in Ukraine is listed in the infobox, I'd say Iran belongs there too. I mean, direct combat support goes a step above basing/overfly agreements and weapon donations. 2603:6000:A640:BB00:E5E9:3C66:7779:48FE (talk) 00:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Just like Russia says NATO is a belligerent in this war. Segaton (talk) 02:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Russia says a lot of things. Russia says Ukrainians are a nation created by a centuries-old international conspiracy against Russia, and their elected president is a Nazi Jew controlled by foreign powers. So please check the sources you are citing before putting your name on a comment.  —Michael Z. 14:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• tasnim monitor, iranintl, mehr , iranintl

Iranian IRGC in Ukraine

There are a number of little subthreads on this and I’m not sure if everyone’s on the same page, so creating a sub-section to take a straw poll.

Facts (from memory): the USA and Ukraine say that a small group of Iranian trainers are in Crimea to provide additional training, and appear to be participating in the operation of Iranian drones that are being used to attack Ukrainian infrastructure and cities.

Based on this, I would include Iran in the “Supporters” subhead under “Belligerents” in the infobox, with supporting text in the article. Support or Oppose? —Michael Z. 23:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Oppose unless America, France, Germany etc. are included for their vast military materiel aid as supporters on the Ukraine side. BogLogs (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

It’s not about material aid. It’s about sending military to participate in the conflict in the war zone. None of those states have done that.  —Michael Z. 04:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

By the way, France and Germany have traded military matériel to Russia too.[21][22]  —Michael Z. 04:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Interesting, How many billions of dollars of military aid did they provide for Russia since the war started? Even back in May the US agreed to send 40 billion dollars alone to support Kiev [24]

Of what you seem to be suggesting is some great amount of aid, did France and Germany justify the aid as being used to defend Russia from an invasion force?

Sending military units to fight directly can be debated over whether it makes those nations either supporters or outright belligerents. Aiding countries with vast military aid, training, etc. to turn the tide of war makes them supporters. BogLogs (talk) 09:40, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Condemning the invasion in a UNGA resolution makes 143 states supporters. The infobox doesn’t have a “Supporters” field or heading, and its docs don’t have a place for supporters.

Neither $1 or $1 trillion of military trade or aid, either in peacetime or during a conflict, makes a state a participant in the conflict, that is, a legal belligerent.

Sending units to fight is not debated: it definitely makes a state a legal belligerent.  —Michael Z. 19:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Then why have a separate list for supporters at all and not simply list them all as belligerents? Or as has been done on conflict page after page on wikipedia(Korean War, Crimean War, Yom Kippur War, Russian Civil War as a few examples) why not list those states whose support are having a materiel outcome on the war? Also I'll just throw it out in terms of money a dollar vrs a billion, Germany donated war materiel to an allied nation that participated in WWII, can you guess which one?, I doubt that would make us question which side they were on.

Also I'm happy to discuss this further with you but wasn't your goal here to make this area a straw poll rather than a new discussion? BogLogs (talk) 20:36, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Belarus is an unusual case because it is guilty of aggression but not a direct participant. The template doesn’t have a list for supporters, and I don’t believe there should normally be one added. Some of those examples are extreme and confusing: in Russian Civil War, I have no idea what the difference between “supported by” and the second row is, so I have to read the text anyway. But the more specific descriptors like “medical support” are better, because they mean something (“support” could be a type of participation, a strictly commercial relationship, or pure rhetoric).

Yes, straw poll, but it doesn’t hurt to use it to shake out our facts, opinions, and consensus in the meantime.  —Michael Z. 21:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support. The participation of Iran is hugely important for a number of reasons, including the "nuclear deal" of Iran with other countries becoming the history. One should wonder what could force Iran to unilaterally nullify the nuclear deal. Probably a direct transfer of nuclear technologies if not even ready-to-use nuclear weapons from Russia. My very best wishes (talk) 00:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support: Given that US intelligence alleges that Iran presently has boots on the ground in Crimea providing direct military participation in the form of drone operators, this seems like a fair distinction to the NATO/EU/AUKUS training and materiel support that Ukraine receives, as these supporting parties are not directly participating in the conflict on the ground. If need be, I'd be fine with a "(alleged)" written beside Iran in parentheses. --benlisquare_T•C•E 02:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose the sources are weak. US is an involved party thus a US intelligence is a very partisan source for this conflict. Georgethedragonslayer (talk) 06:29, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Comment We really need to have a set definition for what sorts of activity merits "supported by" inclusion in the infobox, applied consistently on both sides. Iran's "boots on the ground", allegedly even controlling the drones directly, would certainly merit inclusion if the definition requires boots on the ground. But this would preclude Belarusian inclusion. If one further expands the standard of inclusion to include providing one's territory as staging grounds for military logistics, then Belarus can remain, but arguably so should Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania (and NATO, let's be honest).

Right now, there really isn't a consistent standard for what actually merits inclusion and I think that needs to be properly hashed out before we can agree on what to do with he latest news regarding Iran. --haha169 (talk) 07:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this, a deeper discussion or another RfC may be warranted to decide soon what merits inclusion. BogLogs (talk) 09:45, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I also agree with this. A consistent definition of what constitutes support would clear up a lot of problems going forward. That definition should adhere to NPOV, and should reflect gradients of participation in line with the meanings of the terms "belligerent" and "supported by" such that a reader need not be aware of any special criteria. entropyandvodka (talk) 20:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

To be honest, that is nonsense. Ukraine is not staging forces in those states and invading Russia across their borders. Ukraine is not retreating its forces into their territories to escape the battlefield. Ukraine is not firing cruise missiles from their territory into Russia. —Michael Z. 18:41, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree we need to have a discussion about inclusion criteria before we start to argue over individual cases. Slatersteven (talk) 10:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I think that has been debated on this talk already (see archives) and resulted in the following current consensus for inclusion to the infobox:

1. Providing weapons to a belligerent (sales or free of charge) - no.
2. Providing military bases and airfields to attack another country - yes.

The only question in this case if "boots on the ground" should be counted as involvement in the hostilities, and the answer seem to be clearly "yes". My very best wishes (talk) 14:23, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

And what does "boots on the ground" mean? Because all these Irianain are "advisors", well I seem to recall reading we have advisors on the ground. Slatersteven (talk) 14:35, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Which means we should focus on Iran (the subject of this thread) rather than on general criteria for the inclusion. Speaking about people, there are different categories. Some individuals are enrolled to the International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine, frequently against advice of their governments. This does not mean the involvement of the corresponding countries (where these citizens belong) as belligerents. By the same criterion, Syria should not be included to the infobox just because their individual citizens have been voluntarily enrolled to Russian army. A very different category would be people who remain in the active military service of their country and were sent by their state to take part in the hostilities. Those are "boots on the ground". For example, if there were US "instructors" operating on the ground in Ukraine to direct Ukrainian drones, that would be an involvement. Of course one could object saying that what difference does it make if they provide an intelligence to Ukrainians and operate from Pentagon? That would be a reasonable argument (and perhaps the inclusion of USA would be justifiable), but it is not so clear cut and possibly needs a separate discussion. My very best wishes (talk) 16:54, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the need for a separate discussion about this, and about a NPOV-compliant criteria defining a supporter. Ascertaining intelligence about troop movements and giving that information to a belligerent such that they can destroy or kill enemy units is playing a supporting role in a conflict. entropyandvodka (talk) 20:25, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

If your second bullet is correct then we definitely need to have a new rfc. The criteria of providing military logistics to invade another country, to me at least, seems specifically designed to include allies of Russia and exclude allies of Ukraine, because only Russia and her allies are "invading another country", as Ukraine and her allies are fighting a defensive war. It is not a balanced criteria. --haha169 (talk) 16:42, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I said "attack", not "invade". Yes, it does not matter if this is an offensive or defensive side. Consider an imaginary example of Poland helping Ukraine to attack Belarus from the territory of Poland. That would make Poland a belligerent. I am not saying it would be good/bad, only that it would justify the inclusion to the infobox.My very best wishes (talk) 17:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

It’s not “logistics” (although Belarus does also provide transport and weapons). It’s legally the international crime of aggression when Belarus allows Russian forces to fire missiles into Ukraine from its territory and invade Ukraine across its borders.  —Michael Z. 18:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

True. Moreover, Russia and Belarus are officially a Union State, and they have joint military forces. My very best wishes (talk) 19:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support, but add the word "alleged" similar to the infobox at Yemeni Civil War (2014–present) per WP:NPOV. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:24, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support: I agree with the above support. Alleged is the correct description for IRGC being a belligerent, as while there is no available proof, there are reputable accusations. As for my opinion addressing "But the West gives Ukraine weapons, shouldn't they be belligerents too?": There is a vast difference between giving Ukraine weapons (such as Western nations are doing) and Ukraine being the sole operator of the weapons in the scope of combat, and giving russia weapons (such as iran is doing) and iran launching of the weapons in the same scope of combat. Matthewberns (talk) 16:52, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  While that may be true, almost every single article about a war with the support infoboxes uses them to describe support that includes weapons shipments, and sometimes even humanitarian aid. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 18:32, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  As an ongoing conflict, the definition of legal belligerent is important. Those other articles are playing fast and loose with the labels, ignoring what the template docs say (belligerents = “the parties participating in the conflict”), and cramming in as much stuff as they can, contrary to MOS:IB (“the less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose”). —Michael Z. 19:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. There is a significant difference between providing special teaching advisors and providing actual soldiers firing rifles; this historically was an important transition in Vietnam where USA was providing military advisors in one phase, while only later did USA then start sending combat troops for actual fighting. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:31, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  Sending a military unit to the soil of an invaded country to help operate equipment that intentionally attacks its civilian infrastructure and kills and maims civilians in their homes is participating in the conflict. It should rightly be directly under the “Belligerents” heading, but I am proposing demoting it to “supporters” because they deny being there and supposedly aren’t directly controlling the attacks.  —Michael Z. 19:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that would be the case if these guys were just doing training somewhere in Iran. However, based on sources, they took part in the actual warfare at the Ukrainian territory. An "instructor" sitting in Crimea: "You hit this button NOW!", then someone hits the button, and a Ukrainian family somewhere is dead. My very best wishes (talk)

Support: I wouldn't even put it below support but directly as a party to war. Under international law, a country is part to the war, when they have troops on the ground in the conflict zone that at least support them.

This was also stated by researcher for international law at Bonn University Philipp Dürr on Twitter as a reply to a journalist who said "Iran is a direct party to the war": "Correct. That is why the sanctions against Iran must now be tightened enormously (as if the regime's behaviour in recent weeks had not been enough...). The JCPOA - that will no longer be of any use."

If NATO had stationed troops on the territory of Ukraine, who trained Ukrainians or provide air-defence, NATO would be a party to the war. So is Iran now. Belarus never had troops on the territory of Ukraine, so they are just support Pettylein (talk) 18:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Belarus is legally guilty of aggression, but not legally a participant in the armed conflict.  —Michael Z. 19:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Support: I believe Western countries supplying weapons should count as supported as well, but the news has reported that Iran has gone further than just providing weapons, training, or intelligence. The Hill says, “We can confirm that Russia’s military personnel that are based in Crimea have been piloting Iranian UAVs [unmanned aerial vehicles], using them to conduct strikes across Ukraine, including strikes against Kyiv in just recent days. We assess that Iranian military personnel on the ground in Crimea assisted Russia in these operations.” (The Hill) Troops directly aiding in attacks should count as supporting Russia. That's a step towards more direct support that Western countries have not done in Ukraine. --Pithon314 (talk) 20:17, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Do you understand that thousands of fighters from western countries have been fighting in Ukraine? Even if this claim from Hill was correct, we are yet to know if those Iranians are playing a voluntarily role or they were officially deployed by the Iranian government. Segaton (talk) 02:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

You’re making that up. Sources say they are Iranian military of the IRGC, not that they are volunteers that joined Russian armed forces or mercenaries. —Michael Z. 03:11, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Support. Because Iran has played such a significant, on-the-ground role in this conflict involving training and in some cases operating the drones in this conflict, the IRGC should be considered a supporter. DBA78 (talk) 02:15, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Supporr: per the earlier subthread mess, there are now plenty of reliable sources discussing Iranian troops directly stationed in occupied parts of Ukraine both training and according to the US in some cases directly operating weapons.

I think the argument regarding Iranian weapon supplies is diving off topic, and I think the Iranian operations in Crimea should be the main focus of the inclusion. Pax Brittanica (talk) 22:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose I also agree that the sources claiming Iranian involvement are opposing parties and it is necessary for us to first establish a criteria. Segaton (talk) 02:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Comment This thread is ostensibly about the infobox and the notion of supported by. It tends to lose sight of WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and it appears to me that many are trying to write the article in the infobox. An infobox is a supplement to the lead, which is itself a summary of the article. Furthermore, an infobox cannot capture nuance. Belarus appears in the infobox because the actions of the country cross a clear line (objective criteria) of committing an act of aggression. Futhermore, this is clearly established by sources. This is the bar that has been set. Iran, providing material and training does not cross this threshold. While Crimea is disputed territory in the greater scheme of things, it was nonetheless held by Russia preinvasion. It is certainly not a clear line that an Iranian presence in Crimea constitutes "boots on the ground" and an act of aggression. I note that the IWS source is circumspect in its report stating: Russian forces may have brought Iranian ... [emphasis added] and describes the Iranians as "training". The information is also attributed to the National Resistance Center of Ukraine. The AP News source is also equivocal in its reporting. The body of our article would state (citing the IWS source): In October, Iranian instructors, likely members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, were reportedly in Ukraine teaching Russian forces and directly controlling the launch of drones against civilian targets. This statement is made in a Wiki voice (as a matter of fact), when a review of the source would clearly indicate this is not appropriate. To alledge that Iran reaches the same threshold as Belarus is a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim that would require substantially better sourcing. We should be conservative in such a case. It is better to omit what cannot be confirmed than to report as fact that which may well be false. The corollary of this is: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:43, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  The point about sourcing is correct, although you omit that the USA and Ukraine have been generally reliable.

  But the “preinvasion” idea snuck in there is pure nonsense corresponding to a rather extreme pro-Kremlin POV. Like the UN has already declared the Russian occupation of part of Ukraine and its new borders legitimate, or something.  —Michael Z. 14:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  I did not sneak anything in. What I said was: While Crimea is disputed territory in the greater scheme of things, it was nonetheless held by Russia preinvasion. In no way does the statement legitimise Russia's annexation of Crimea pre-invasion nor the subsequent occupations. The response to this is a WP:STRAWMAN argument. It is not up to us to take the reports to date and determine that Iran is an aggressor state similar to Belarus or even a direct belligerent. That would be WP:SYNTH. It is also something that many commenting here do not appear to recognise. Futhermore, to categorise Iran as such in the infobox is a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim in a Wiki voice. Regardless of whether the US or Ukraine sources are generally reliable, they are not WP:EXCEPTIONAL in respect to this particular question. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:49, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose The AP source that presents Iran as 'directly engaged' on the ground also brings forth this specific quote: "“The information we have is that the Iranians have put trainers and tech support in Crimea, but it’s the Russians who are doing the piloting,” Kirby said". This does not lend support to the claim that the Iranian troops themselves are actually launching the strikes, and piloting the drones to their targets. This is a difference of teaching how to use the weapons and supervising field tests and combat deployment; not the same as the Iranian soldiers piloting and targeting the weapons themselves. King keudo (talk) 15:23, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  It would be much the same if foreign soldiers in Ukraine only drove the tanks to firing positions, only loaded the shells into the artillery guns, or only laid the crosshairs on the target, but didn’t pull any triggers.

  A foreign military unit that illegally entered Ukraine is making an offensive weapon work against Ukrainian civilian targets. The ISW terms it “to assist Russian forces in conducting drone attacks” and “providing military support to Russian forces in Ukraine.”[23] Iranian soldiers “‘directly engaged on the ground’” in Ukraine are directly engaged in the war. —Michael Z. 20:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not quite convinced that this particular role belongs in this list. The slippery slope of 'only', as you've kindly pointed out, doesn't concern me as we have yet to see a war where armies and troops were used to do everything except pull the trigger, so I think that claim will fail verifiability. Advising still isn't the same as participating, as far as I can tell. I'm still not seeing tons of sources describing the advisors from Tehran as combat belligerents or such. King keudo (talk) 23:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  There is no restriction due to “only.”

  Russia invaded and thus is involved in the international armed conflict. So every Russian soldier in Ukraine, even one who only sat in a truck waiting to unload crates of field rations, is a soldier involved in the war.

  Likewise, Iran sent its military to Ukraine to participate in the armed conflict. Any IRGC soldier that was ordered to Ukraine to make the drones work is engaged in the conflict. —Michael Z. 16:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  Not to say that 'only' is restricting anything; however you were the one relying on the only emphasis to make a point about something that has...never happened in recorded warfare. If I'm wrong about that, please point it out to me. Until such point, I think it's still fair to say that only doing everything for a war except pulling the trigger has never happened, so I fail to see why that argument has anything to do with the fact that teaching isn't the same as doing. In how many conflicts has the US and NATO allies, or the U.N. sent advisors to a conflict zone, and were never recorded as 'engaged in in the conflict' until actual soldiers, with guns, or tanks, or planes, were sent?

  There's a pretty significant difference, too, between the Russian soldier in Ukraine, driving a truck of rations and shooting at Ukrainians on Russian orders to capture territory, and the Iranian soldiers from the Geek Squad who was sent as part of the 'paid installation' package to set up the wi-fi routers and show the Russian soldiers how to turn on the computer and launch the 'flight simulator' game. If the comparison seems ridiculous, it is on purpose - you're wanting to compare the Russians actively killing other soldiers, torturing civilians, and forcibly migrating Ukrainian citizens into Russia to the guys who - in all likelihood - gave a power-point presentation, set up some actual flight simulator terminals for training, and then either went home, or stuck around to be the IT guy. Again, I'm not convinced that this equates to 'directly engaged in the conflict' as you want to define it. Based on your description, we should include go ahead and include any and every country that even made a statement about the conflict on one side or another if the bar is so low.

  Regardless; I think until RS specifically state that the Iranians sent are considered to be combatants actively supporting Russia through their combat actions, we can't describe them as such, and thus can't add Iran in the way people are arguing for. King keudo (talk) 18:52, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

  That is a reasonable position. But that likely requires judgment.

  USA’s John Kirby says “Iran is right now on the ground, involved, engaged in the war in Ukraine,” and I don’t think anyone in the media or in this discussion doubting the US statements.

  CNN: “a significant escalation in Iran’s involvement in the war.”[24]

  That they are in the war zone is underlined by reports of them being killed in strikes.[25]  —Michael Z. 23:11, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Support including Western countries that have supplied military equipment to Ukraine too, and maybe also Syria. Super Ψ Dro 22:18, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Strongly support. This is because of a MAJOR and FUNDAMENTAL difference between providing training and military equipment to Ukraine than Iranian forces actually commanding drones to wipe out enemy forces. Raymond Kestis (talk) 01:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Raymond Kestis, your source that this is the case? Cinderella157 (talk) 04:13, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Source 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events#2022_October_20

Source 2: https://thehill.com/policy/international/3697453-white-house-says-iranian-troops-on-the-ground-in-crimea-aiding-russian-drone-strikes/ (Taken from Source 1) Raymond Kestis (talk) 04:28, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Raymond Kestis, I will agree with you that there is a major and fundamental difference between providing training and arms and actually piloting a drone strike. However, your source (the Hill) attributes to Kirby:We assess that Iranian military personnel on the ground in Crimea assisted Russia in these operations and they are providing tech support while the Russians pilot the UAVs for attacks. Other reports of the same press release also specifically use the word trainingtrainers in respect to the Iranians. Your source does not state that Iranians are piloting drone strikes against Ukranians. Cinderella157 (talk) 07:40, 24 October 2022 (UTC)Cinderella157 (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

The source does not say “training.” It says “aiding” and “providing tech support.” Other sources make it clear that training was conducted in Iran, but the Russians were unable to operate the drones well enough without the presence of Iranian military present in Ukraine, and apparently now in Belarus too. They’re not training. They’re making the weapons work. —Michael Z. 13:14, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I am in error to the extent that the AP source specifically uses "trainers" and not "training". The correction, however, makes no significant difference to what I said. The AP article also attributes to Kirby: but it’s the Russians who are doing the piloting. This goes directly to the rationale being applied by Raymond Kestis and that their criteria for support is not being met. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Raymond Kestis’s criterion is arbitrary.

An Iranian unit is part of the invasion of Ukraine. Iran’s soldiers have illegally entered Ukraine and are taking part in attacking Ukrainian infrastructure and civilians. Iran’s military involvement is more direct than that of Belarus.  —Michael Z. 23:23, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Support: It has already been claimed that IRGC members are "on the western front," which is quite vague but could range anything from yes, directing drone attacks to participating in active combat. Other supportive arguments do address the difference between sending arms and directing attacks, and contrary to what some of the opposing users have claimed, have set a clear-cut and fair threshold. It is also worth noting that we should (1) establish consistent formatting for this discussion (whether to use bullet points or not) and (2) make this an RfC. Firestar464 (talk) 09:12, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Change Infobox sub-heading from 'Belligerents' to 'Military alliances'

  Russia

  Ukraine

  Countries sending military aid to Ukraine during the 2022 invasion

  Russia

  Ukraine

  Countries sending any aid, including humanitarian aid, to Ukraine

The current structure of this invasion article is based upon a four-part division of the range of support being provided to the countries involved as ranging between military alliances at one end, and political neutrality on the other end. The two additional gradations introduced in the "Military aid" section of the article are illustrated in the demographic map illustrations which are: (a) Countries supplyling aid to Ukraine, and (b) Countries supplying any aid, including humanitarian aid, to Ukraine.

If this four part gradation of the level of support existing between nations is not sufficient for this Invasion article, then it should be discussed here on the Talk page. The four part distinction being used to describe the level of support between nations presently being used in the article can be summarized as: (i) Military alliances, (ii) Countries supplying military supplies or aid to Ukraine, (iii) Countries supplying any aid, including humanitarian aid, to Ukraine, and (iv) Countries which are politically neutral. It might be useful to consider changing the ambiguous designation of "Belligerents" to "Military alliances" in the current main Infobox given the current structure of the article as a whole. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I’m opposed.

Regarding alliances, Ukraine is not part of any military alliance. Russia’s military alliance, the CSTO, is not participating in or supporting its invasion.  —Michael Z. 14:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

[corrected typo: many → any. —Michael Z. 20:13, 22 October 2022 (UTC)]

Both you and Steven appear to feel that there is some gradation between a military alliance, and Countries supplying aid to Ukraine, though you are not stating what criteria you would apply to that unspecified gradation. It would be useful to hear how you could sketch out this unstated gradation between Military alliances and Countries supplying military supplies. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:37, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/military-alliance, so does the English language. So we need RS saying there is a formal military alliance.Slatersteven (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Belarus and Russia have a military alliance in the Collective Security Treaty Organization with several dozen RS available. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:09, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

But this is not about just them. Slatersteven (talk) 13:16, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

military alliance: “a formal agreement between nations concerning national security.”

It’s not a gradation; it’s black or white. A military, defence, or security alliance comprises states that have a defence treaty.

Yes, Russia is in the 6-member CSTO. No, it doesn’t belong in the infobox under belligerents because it’s not involved.  —Michael Z. 14:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The significant part of CSTO is that Belarus has acted as a military ally of Russia by providing safe conduct to Russian troops for the purpose of attacking Ukraine. Belarus is listed in the Infobox largely because of this. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Mzajac, Ukraine is not even part of some formal military alliance (such as NATO) and as far as I am aware is not even in an Economic one (such as the EU). Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. According to the map, the supposed "military alliance" includes Australia, New Zealand, and a few countries in South America and Middle East, along with Europe, USA, etc. That is wrong. Ukraine is not a part of any formal military alliances. Such image, when framed as a "military alliance", promotes the Russian propaganda narrative that Russia was attacked by the "collective West". My very best wishes (talk) 15:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per the reasons already stated. - HammerFilmFan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.8.120 (talk) 01:50, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

• That is the image created by another previous editor; if there is a mistake in it then that editor might be contacted on Commons to try to correct it. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:37, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I would point out that one does not simply just change an infobox and that this infobox only exists as a stand-alone template under sufferance of the broader Wiki community as a temporary measure. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:05, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. This was not meant as a straw poll. My comment stated: "If this four part gradation of the level of support existing between nations is not sufficient for this Invasion article, then it should be discussed here on the Talk page." Both Michael and Steven appear to feel that there is some gradation between a military alliance, and Countries supplying aid to Ukraine, though they are not stating what criteria to apply in order to asses that unspecified gradation. It would be useful to hear from editors about how to sketch out this unstated gradation between Military alliances and Countries supplying military supplies. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  Classification as a belligerent is an absolute, not a gradation. It is a category in international law, meaning a party engaged in a conflict. No alliances are engaged in this conflict. Two states are fully engaged: the aggressive invader and the defender. Additionally, we have added Belarus because it is guilty of the crime of aggression according to the UN’s definition, although it is not directly engaged in fighting nor has invaded Ukraine. Additionally, we should probably add Iran, at it has sent an Iranian military contingent into Ukraine to directly participate in the Russian terror bombing campaign, and has reportedly suffered casualties in Ukraine.

  Provision of matériel through trade or aid does not create a conflict where none exists, nor is it participating in an existing conflict. It does not place a party under the category of “belligerents.”

  As this is an ongoing conflict – subject to a lot of Russian disinformation about who is involved in it – we must not play fast and loose with these definitions.  —Michael Z. 15:25, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  Almost forgot: we have also added Russia’s fake DLNR “republics” under belligerents. IMO, they don’t belong there, because they have never been sovereign parties. Their military formations do belong under “Units involved” and “Strength” because they have always been under operational control of Russian officers in the Kremlin’s chain of command. —Michael Z. 15:38, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  Both the fake DLNR republics are apparently now non-existent as 'sovereign republics' after their annexation by Putin on 30 September; they do not appear to belong in the Infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:49, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

  Facts in law: the International Criminal Court in determining its jurisdiction found that there was an international armed conflict in Crimea by 26 February 2014, and in eastern Ukraine by 14 July 2014. It further found that there had been an armed conflict in eastern Ukraine since at least 30 April 2014 involving the DLNR, and is investigating the possibility that Russian control of these groups made it an international armed conflict from that earlier date ([26]:20¶88, 22¶94–95).  —Michael Z. 16:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  All of those points are relevant. As far as I count them so far, there are at least several transitional criteria which countries can apply in general in moving from merely providing military supplies to a country in a state of warfare, in moving towards countries that have the equivalent of a full military alliance of shared combat troops in the field. Up to this point in time, this Talk page has included discussion of the criteria of providing boots on the ground, of providing planes in the air, of providing safe conduct for military troops to attack another nation, of providing classroom military training to another nation's troops involved in combat. Actually, this Talk page has covered many of the criteria which fall between outright military alliance and the mere provision of military supplies and equipment. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  So if you accept that so far we are "between outright military alliance and the mere provision of military supplies" then how can we say there is a military alliance? Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  Pulling the various points made by Michael and others above into one coherent statement then: Russia and Belarus do have a military alliance (CSTO) and are therefore listed together in the Infobox as 'belligerents', while Ukraine at this moment has no military alliances and therefor is listed alone under 'belligerents' in the Infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:25, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  I am really unsure how you come to that conclusion as at least one person has explicitly stated that the fact they are in a military alliance has no relevance here. They are listed together as one attacked, from the others territory. Slatersteven (talk) 17:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  That completely misrepresents me. In fact, I wrote that the CSTO is not participating in this conflict. Belarus has committed aggression against Ukraine by allowing its territory to be used for Russian aggression (UNGA Res. 3314, Art. 3[f]).[27]

  This “transitional criteria” is your own WP:original research. Neither trading or donating military matériel, nor conducting joint military training, creates a state of armed conflict, nor does it make a state a participant in one. Nor does condemning aggression in a UNGA resolution.  —Michael Z. 20:10, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps a moot point given the way this discussion has already played out but I'm opposed as well. Simply listing belligerents and their supporters, by whatever definition we can hopefully arrive at a consensus on, is the best way to introduce readers to the article information. BogLogs (talk) 12:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Steven and Michael have been taking a strict position concerning the criteria being used to determine the designation of being a belligerent in the Invasion. At present, they are stating that it falls short of requiring a written military alliance, though the exact criteria are still not spelled out. Apparently, military advisors from other nations visiting in Ukraine or Russia must be in uniform, in sufficient numbers, and be answerable to an established chain of command to qualify as being 'belligerents'. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:13, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

No that is not what either of us has said, we have said that to be labeled in a military alliance there has to be a formal military alliance. This is about "Change Infobox sub-heading from 'Belligerents' to 'Military alliances'", not who should be included. Slatersteven (talk) 16:22, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

No, that’s not what I said. A belligerent is a state that is involved in an international armed conflict under international law: an attacker (aggressor) or defender. —Michael Z. 20:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I've noted both of your oppositions and am planning to alter this question to wanting to deal with the large number of undue Talk page threads here dealing with NATO. Should the Infobox include a "NATO status" tab under the current "Status" tab towards the top of the current Infobox, to state something like: "NATO status: Ukraine's application for NATO membership was rejected by NATO in 2008; Russian foreign policy is generally antagonistic to NATO." It seems as if something like this might assist in dealing with too many undue threads on this Talk page asking about NATO. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:02, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The data point “Ukraine is not a member of NATO” is out of place in an infobox about a conflict, and putting undue weight on this. Are we going to list all of the other alliances Ukraine doesn’t belong to too? Are we going to list Russia’s alliances? —Michael Z. 23:57, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Why aren’t supporting nations listed in the infobox?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Other war info boxes have this, why not this one? Just a few examples of many that could be used

• Korean War
• Venezuelan crisis of 1902–1903
• Chaco War
• Iraq War

If the answer is “because it plays into Russian propaganda”, that’s not acceptable. Wikipedia is not censored. If something is true, it should be included where appropriate even if it lends support to someone most users oppose.—Jfhutson (talk) 20:16, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Because Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are the only countries directly involved in conflict. Military aid is different. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:21, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

In other wars, those indirectly involved are included in the infobox. For example, the Korean War box has Israel because they gave the South Koreans $100k in food aid. I don’t think we have to include humanitarian support, but surely nations providing lethal military aid should be listed as supporters. —Jfhutson (talk) 20:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not playing neutral on this 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022 Russia- NATO war) issue. In many article where other country/group provided military aid they were added in infobox. NATO is playing the main role in this war. They are providing all kind of military intelligent, weapons, money, spy to Ukraine. The United States alone has allocated aid worth $65 billion, over ten times Ukraine's pre-war defense budget and on par with the entire annual military spending of Russia. However giving hundreds of billions of dollars in direct military aid, decisively turning the conflict in Ukraine's favor, should probably be mentioned in the infobox. You don't need to have boots on ground to be a supporter of a belligerent, that is the entire point of a "Supported by" section. I think this page is playing a dual standard. Shahidul Hasan Roman (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I suppose the difference is that the general consensus outside of Wikipedia in the West is that NATO isn't involved a belligerent in the war. —Biscuit-in-Chief :-) ^{(ˈ[d̥͡soːg̊ʰ] – [ˈg̊ʰɒ̹nd̥͡sɹ̠ɪb̥s])} 21:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, the article makes it abundantly clear who is providing materiel aid.50.111.8.120 (talk) 01:46, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

So far the discussion has been whether or not to include certain supporters in the article and infobox, which discussion just a couple threads up is covering. For the most part reliable sources do not list most countries providing aid as belligerents or as involved militarily in the conflict. As for other articles, WP:OTHERSTUFF exists. and for every article that has supporters listed this way in the infobox there exists a similar article that does not. No global consensus exists as far as I know regarding the way this is approached. So far, the archive indicates past discussions reached consensus against listing weapons sales or financial support in this manner. King keudo (talk) 23:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Its been suggested that an infobox be added to the Military aid subsection of this article, though no-one has developed an Infobox for that section. It seems unlikely that such information will make it into the main Infobox unless a subsection in the Military aid subsection receives such a dedicated infobox first. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

See threads above and in the archive, and the FAq. Slatersteven (talk) 09:28, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Belarus is listed as a Russian supporter for simply allowing Military acess but NATO isn't listed as an Ukraine supporter despite sending massive Military aid?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Very weird to me 80.102.106.180 (talk) 16:25, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

See the umpteen threads above and in the archive. Slatersteven (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

And Iran isn't listed as supporting Russia yet they're selling drones. Dawsongfg (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

They are only selling drones. Selling Military weapons doesn't need a special mention. Every sovereign country in the world does this kind of trade on a regular basis. But the NATO members are providing direct billions amount of free military weapons, supplying direct military intelligence in Ukraine to Fight Russia. This should be a special mention. Shahidul Hasan Roman (talk) 22:02, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ukrain supported by Ichkeria

Militants from Ichkeria support the Armed Forces of Ukraine to resist the Russian siege. Ichkeria Chechens fighting inside Ukraine.--Contribuyendo para el bien de la humanidad (talk) 21:24, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Ichkeria isn't a nation. Firestar464 (talk) 03:48, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Each sides support

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I propose adding Iran to the "support" section of the infobox for the Russian side for sending drones and trainers, and North korea for sending soldiers to build infrastructure in the annexed parts of Ukraine. We should add NATO and the EU to a "support" section for Ukraine. 2603:7000:3B40:B500:BDB8:F15E:64FD:F7EC (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 October 2022

The word 'New York' is written above '22 march' next to 'Yenakiieve' on the main map of the article. Please remove it HistoryResearcher101 (talk) 02:29, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done--no reason given for edit. HistoryResearcher101, I take it you're unfamiliar with the town of New York, Ukraine? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 02:45, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

RfC on Western support to Ukraine

Should the countries that have helped Ukraine during this war be included in the infobox of this article? Super Ψ Dro 08:33, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Recently there have been more calls on the talk page of this article to include this information. It doesn't seem strange to me, considering all that has changed since the last RfC. It was started on 27 February and closed on 6 March. Only 11 days of the invasion passed! I'm not sure if any Western weapons had even arrived to Ukraine by then, I would expect they did not.

Now that eight months have passed, it is clear that Western weapons have been key in the turning of this war in Ukraine's favor. There is plenty of sources on this. American HIMARS (note that it was first announced that they would be given to Ukraine on 31 May) have been so relevant that even Zelenskyy has said that they are "changing the course of the war against Russia" [28]. Ukraine has used HIMARS to disrupt logistics from Russian-occupied Kherson to the other bank of the Dnipro, and also to hit command posts and ammunition depots deep into Russian lines. This has caused Russian artillery strikes in Donbas to decrease tenfold [29]; this was one of the few advantages Russia had over Ukraine that allowed it to eventually capture Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk [30].

And there's more apart of the HIMARS. For example, American Javelins were regarded as so valuable during the early months of the war by the Ukrainians that a Saint Javelin meme was born. Many sources talk about its role during the war [31] [32]. The Institute for the Study of War (ISW), a widely cited institution on invasion articles, attribute an important (though not main) role to Western weapons for Ukraine's success in at the 2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive [33]; Ukraine's foreign minister used Ukraine's recovery of most of Kharkiv Oblast as a chance to ask for the supply of more weapons, saying Ukraine would be able to recapture more territory this way [34]. Here are more sources talking about the influence of Western weapons in the war in general [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40]. We must also not forget Russia's displeasure at this supply of weapons [41] [42].

Western weapons have had an undeniably huge role during this war. But Western help to Ukraine is not limited to weapons supplies. American intelligence is also said to be highly relevant in for example precision strikes by Ukraine on Russian logistical targets [43] [44] [45]. Economic aid has also been relevant [46]. For this reason I would support these countries be included under a "Supported by" section and not only an "Arms suppliers" or similar section. We should include more specific information about how has a particular country helped Ukraine on notes next to the listed countries.

One of the worries of editors who opposed the last RfC was that it would make the infobox too long. This can be easily addressed through a collapsible list. Others said this would imply that the United States and other countries are being listed as belligrants. Clearly this would not be the case if we list them under a "Supported by" section, they should not be included on Ukraine's level on the infobox.

Still, if weapons supplies are said not to be enough to warrant inclusion on the infobox, I'd like that at the very least, the United States should be included for being the biggest supplier of weapons which have caused actual changes on the battlefield, for its intelligence support and for its economic aid. I think this would be unfair however, as British and Polish help for example has also been important. Discussion in this RfC about which countries could be included and which shouldn't may result in a list supported by consensus to include in the infobox. Maybe we could come up with a minimum threshold of support to Ukraine.

I will also note that the common practice in Wikipedia is to include countries that have helped one or another side during a war in the war's infobox, see Iran–Iraq War, Vietnam War, Yom Kippur War, Soviet–Afghan War, Football War, Cambodian Civil War and Korean War as examples. There is no particular reason in my eyes for this article to be an exception.

And by the way, NATO should not be included. NATO does not have any weapons of its own, it is individual countries that decided to supply some to Ukraine. Some countries in NATO have not done so and some countries outside NATO did do so. We could however include the European Union due to its economic aid as it does have large funds under its direct control, the ultimate decision on whether some European economic aid packets are sent or not reside under the EU.

Apologies if the arguments on this opening comment are somewhat disorganized. Super Ψ Dro 08:39, 27 October 2022 (UTC)