Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used

Split off soundtrack album

Was wondering whether any one from this WikiProject this that it might be possible to WP:SPLIT Where the Buffalo Roam#Soundtrack of into its own stand-alone article per WP:FILMSCORE. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:10, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Hypothetically, some of the stuff about the soundtrack being altered and redone over the years sounds like there could be some interesting commentary largely focused on the soundtrack itself that makes it seem like there's be things to say in an article split. However, much of that looks to be unsourced, so I have no idea if it's true or if there's the sourcing to justify a split. Sergecross73 msg me 02:23, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed – given the caliber of the artists who worked on the soundtrack, it seems likely that it was reviewed separately at the time in some music publications, and could be split off in the future. But right now, there doesn't seem to be enough information to justify that. Richard3120 (talk) 14:18, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Keyboard Fantasies

I'm very out of my depth here, and I'm not sure if here is the right place to turn to (I suspect it may be an issue for admins?), but I'm engaged in an edit war at Keyboard Fantasies with a user who keeps adding unsourced information, among other things (see Talk:Keyboard Fantasies). I have attempted to engage them in the talk page but they have ignored my messages and kept editing (incidentally its the only article they've ever edited, likewise with another, seemingly inactive user who I'm guessing was the same person, so I'm guessing there may be concern here regarding undisclosed COI?). I believe they've acted in good faith (at least until shouting at me) but given that they have removed what they called extraneous details (I agree that some, though not all, were extraneous), while adding in unsourced and needless details such as "world-renowed Dj soundsystem", I personally find it had to tell.

Essentially, any advice here is much welcome.--TangoTizerWolfstone (talk) 08:23, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Looks like you're gonna wanna take this to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and leave a report there. Be sure to link to here, the article's talk page, and the page's edit history to show the full breadth of the issue so the admins understand what's going on. QuietHere (talk) 12:18, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Sergecross may want to weigh in here, given that he's an admin, but unfortunately it does look like ANI may be the next step, given that they seem unwilling to discuss it rationally. Without question the MOS:PUFFERY like "world-renowed Dj soundsystem" has to go. Richard3120 (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks both. I'll see if their behaviour continues (the last revert, not by me, has yet to be reversed) and if so I'll see what I can do.--TangoTizerWolfstone (talk) 15:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Rock 'n Load at RSN

Posted a listing at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Rock 'n Load after my previous concerns, definitely of interest to this WikiProject. Hopefully this is resolved there. QuietHere (talk) 13:39, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposed merge

Please see Talk:The_Last_Waltz_(1978_album)#Merge and comment. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:03, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Template merger proposal

Proposed a merger between Template:Album ratings and Template:Song ratings which I believe is of interest to this project, find that here. QuietHere (talk) 13:09, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposing Relix as a reliable source for rock and jam band news and reviews

I think that Relix is a legit publication and should be added to our sources list. Thoughts? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:42, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Agree, was surprised it wasn't already listed. Has qualified writers like Jeff Tamarkin, etc. ... Caro7200 (talk) 12:13, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd much rather this was used instead of Jambase, which seems to be the go-to source used for the never-ending stream of releases of Grateful Dead live albums. Richard3120 (talk) 15:08, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Track listings -- small font for songwriting credits?

Hello, fellow album enthusiasts! Here's a question about track listings. Many of those are formatted as numbered lists. Most of the time, the song name, the songwriting credits, and the track timing are all the same font size -- for example, Dave's Picks Volume 1. But in many cases, <small> tags have been used to display the songwriting credits in a reduced font size -- for example, Niagara Falls. This type of thing seems to be generally discouraged by MOS:SMALL. On the other hand, it might actually make the track listing easier to read and understand. WP:ALBUMSTYLE#Track listing doesn't say anything about this, so far anyway. So, should we just let editors decide how they want to do this, for each individual article? Or do we want to have a style guideline, to be followed in most, but not necessarily all, cases? Speaking for myself, I'm not sure what to think. Perhaps a lively and informed discussion will help me make up my mind. Cheers. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:03, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I feel that the contrast in size makes the list a bit more readable and keeps all the information distinct from each other, that along with the fact that nothing in MOS:ALBUMS really opposes this use in any way leads me to support the use of <small> with writing credits. Elephantranges (talk) 01:14, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

The small tag is for fine print, which I don't think this is, but you could argue that it could be I guess. If you want to make it small, please use {{small}} at the very least. That said, please don't use it, as I'd like to be able to read it. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:46, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

The most important rule here is MOS:SMALL, which as you can see is part of accessibility rules. Text should never be too small as it makes it difficult for some people to read. In situations like this, yes, it does help to separate text, I can definitely see the effect of that and understand the appeal. But be wary of that page saying "reduced or enlarged font sizes should be used sparingly" and "in no case should the resulting font size of any text drop below about 85% of the page's default font size." So to say that you can use a size modifier (preferably {{small}} as Justin said) so long as it isn't too small and only when necessary. I suppose that's a matter of discretion; personally I think it's helpful here but not so much so that it quite overrides that "sparingly" so I wouldn't, but it's up to you if you disagree.

Personally, I think that's why we have and should use {{Track listing}} as it separates info by column making everything much neater and this issue less of a concern, but as you can see above at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums#Track listing template not everyone feels that way so I guess that's not the right answer either. QuietHere (talk) 06:44, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

See to me it’s not necessarily about the text size, it’s about the visual distinction between the song title and its writers. So if there’s some other way to do that that’s more welcomed, I’d be happy with that, too. Elephantranges (talk) 19:57, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Adding dates to album listings in a template

I was visiting Template:Pentatonix, removing non-linking album listings as inappropriate for navigation templates, and I noted that the template had dates applies to all the albums and EPs. I don't recall seeing that before for templates, and I felt that dates were more for directories and should not be in the navigation box template. I read the guidelines in WP:NAVBOX, and I am not sure after reading it that it does clearly state that non-linking listings should be removed from Navboxes, and I am unsure about dates. I just reviewed the Navbox for Template:The Rolling Stones and Template:The Beatles albums, and see that The Rolling Stone listing includes dates and the Beatles albums listing does not include date, so I am guessing it is by personal choice. I would like to ask for thoughts on this. Mburrell (talk) 04:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Sometimes they are in there and I find them helpful for context. I recently made {{Phoebe Snow}} and {{Rick Danko}} and included them. Note that while there is a strong preference for existing, stand-alone articles, there could be times when including a redlink or a redirect that isn't bypassed could be appropriate, like if a band has five albums and we only have full articles for four, but the third redirects to their discography. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:38, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I've always taken it as a style choice. It's not unhelpful info and there's not really reason to not have them so long as the page doesn't get overcrowded. Like the Rolling Stones one might be better off without them just because of how big it is, but it's not a big deal. In the ones I've made I mostly don't add them, though a couple times (Tobacco and Sons of Kemet) I have and I think it looks fine with 'em. To be honest, I probably wasn't thinking about it much when I did make those and just did it because I happened to remember it was a thing I could add. But the rest that don't have 'em look fine too. So I guess it's editor's discretion unless more editors come along with a major consensus either way. QuietHere (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't recall the exact venue, but it was a big debate a few years back. Some felt it was helpful, while others didn't feel it aided in navigation and felt it should be removed. It ended up being a stalemate, with the only agreement being to treat it sort of like WP:ENGVAR, as in, don't Switch back and forth between formats. The fact that I'm the only one so far remembering this though is probably a testament to how little it's been enforced though... Sergecross73 msg me 12:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I remember the debate as well, I was just trying to find it before commenting. I'm also ambivalent about including the years or not, although like QuietHere, I think it can make things a bit difficult to read in a large navbox and just takes up room. I know that WikiProject Jazz has a rule of making the years in the navbox the recording date of an album, rather than the release date – for jazz albums it's very common that these dates can vary wildly, as live concerts may be recorded but only officially released years later. It does mean, however, that the dates and the chronological order vary between the infobox and the navbox, which I sometimes find confusing, and I wonder whether in these cases it's better to leave the navbox dates out entirely. Richard3120 (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

In that case I would stick strictly to release dates just to avoid that confusion and keep standard with other genres. QuietHere (talk) 15:11, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

There are good reasons for jazz using recording dates. Putting recording dates in a template is possible, as is including a statement that the years are of recording. I see no reason to change this. EddieHugh (talk) 18:55, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I mean if it's made clear that they're recording dates then I suppose it's fine. Excuse me, I hadn't seen any examples and I suppose I spoke out of turn. QuietHere (talk) 19:16, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

It's fine. An example is Template:Lee Morgan (click on 'show'). However, I don't know how accurate it is! EddieHugh (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, if it's clearly stated then it okay. EddieHugh, I do understand why jazz albums are often listed by recording dates: unlike albums in almost any other genre, which are generally both recorded and released in the same chronological order, jazz albums are often released years after recording and in haphazard order, with the result that there are albums being released now in the 2020s by musicians who died 20 or 30 years ago. Seeing dozens of "2010s albums" and "2020s albums" for long-deceased artists in the navbox would be weird, I absolutely understand that. My concern was simply that if it isn't made clear in some way, it could be confusing to the casual reader to see entirely different dates listed in the infobox and the navbox. Richard3120 (talk) 19:28, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, yes. There's the additional point that published jazz discographies are usually presented by recording dates (release dates are often not mentioned). This also aids listeners, who are often interested in how a musician changed over time – this can be obscured by sequencing based on when record labels chose to release material. EddieHugh (talk) 18:01, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't doubt any of this, the main part of the discourse though is if that truly belongs in navigation templates or if it's more suited for discographies. If we're re-litigating the issue, I believe the latter, but if not, I won't push further. Sergecross73 msg me 18:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Here are links to a couple of archived RFCs related to the topic:

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Music/Archive 37#RFC about album years in navigation templates
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Archive 40#RfC on whether Navigational templates should have articles that do not have their own dedicated article, or are a redirect to their artists discography

--Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 22:12, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars, thank you. This answered my questions. Mburrell (talk) 01:02, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

• Keep years for albums - I support keeping the year of release for albums in navigation boxes for musicians and musical ensembles. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:04, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Opinion on using Wikidata for tracklist tables

If another RFC was started today on the policy of using Wikidata on enwiki and one of the proposed allowed use cases would be generating tracklist tables for albums using Wikidata, would you approve of such a use? Lectrician1 (talk) 22:09, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I support, as this will help with internationalization. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:59, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I started working on something like this back in 2020. See this page. - Premeditated (talk) 06:55, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Drawing this kind of objective, mechanical data from Wikidata is exactly why it exists. Great work. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I'd support, as this should be unquestionable and irrefutable data, which is what works best on Wikidata. Although, the usability would be limited by the tools we have for adding these data items to Wikidata; I'd like some of these too. --Muhandes (talk) 09:36, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Reissues

Is there a consensus as to what reissue info should be added to album articles? A user here keeps removing sourced information about recent reissues on the Oingo Boingo album pages. Moreover, he states that a listing of bonus tracks in the track listing should suffice, when the discussion here and the policy at WP:ALTTRACKLIST seems to specify the exact opposite; namely that notable differences should only be summarized in prose, unless they're significant and discussed in detail. Should I restore the sourced prose and remove the bonus tracks from the listing? Keep both? Or is none of this information necessary at all? Thanks. —The Keymaster (talk)

We should definitely amend the style guide info: it is vital and fundamental information to include alternate track listings. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:46, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

That was hashed out pretty well here. I'm torn, as I do think endless alt track listings bog down the album pages with clutter. However, my question is more about reissue info in general. I would think a brief, properly sourced sentence or two about a remastered reissue CD with bonus tracks is perfectly appropriate for Wikipedia, but there's an editor here who keeps removing this kind of info from one band's album pages. Thoughts?

—The Keymaster (talk) 04:59, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I've kept generalized info about reissues in my Elvis Costello pages (My Aim Is True, This Year's Model, etc.) I originally had all the alternate track listings of their expansive reissues (two per album) but with the discussion you mentioned I just kept the sections, which I think suffice pretty well. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 12:55, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I like the way you've laid that out. Should I restore the reissue info to the Boingo pages in a similar fashion? (See the Nothing to Fear edit history for an example of what was removed.) The Keymaster (talk) 22:20, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Getting Older 1981–1991

The article Getting Older 1981–1991 has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

NN album

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. UtherSRG (talk) 13:08, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Whether WP:SPS by Austin Bessey is a reliable source for songs

At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sheesh! we are debating whether an SPS by Austin Bessey is a RS. I got an unfavorable opinion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Whether_WP:SPS_by_Austin_Bessey_is_a_reliable_source. I think this is a very industry specific request that people here might consider differently. My brief experience in the 1980s as a college radio station DJ and music director leads me to believe that Bessey who described his professional experience here as "over 6 years directing and managing the music programming for the national Radio Disney and Radio Disney Country stations". Although the WP article on Programming (music) does not include the responsibility of airplay management as part of the role, I believe that he evaluated which music submissions for inclusion in the airplay rotation and how heavily they should be rotated, making him a subject matter expert on songs. Yet, I am unable to get a concession that a professional music programmer for a national radio network constitutes a subject matter expert on songs.

My question is whether this "Sheesh!" review contributes to WP:SIGCOV as a WP:RS. Whether this review is an RS boils down to 3 elements: 1. Whether Bessey is a subject matter expert for songs, 2. Whether his work has been published in the proper manner and 3. whether his review of "Sheesh!" which is just 3 sentences constituted WP:SIGCOV. Since my experience was at a new music radio station assessing whether works by relatively unknown up and coming acts such as Run DMC, Beastie Boys and Whitney Houston should be aired, I might be a bit off in my understanding of how hit music or popular music radio works. However, my perception is that Bessey often considered hundreds of songs in a week and writing 3 positive sentences about one of them would be a significant opinion. Furthermore, I contend that the fact that the fraction of 1% of the songs that he endorsed made the airwaves was a form of publication for the field of musical programming. The third consideration is whether a 2-sentence paragraph about a song and a 3rd sentence declaring it a landmark for the band constitutes significant coverage.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:24, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

First off, I would like to remind this project has strict music WP has been about SME in the past by pointing to our well-established history of never getting a solid consensus on the reliability of Anthony Fantano/The Needle Drop. I'm not here to open a new discussion on him because we've done enough of that, but just to point out that there were far more qualifications in favor of Fantano's reliability than there are for Mr. Bessey here. Fantano's been covered in the New York Times while the biggest coverage of Bessey I can see is from the Nashville Voyager and All Access. Per precedent, if Fantano's not good enough for a pass then there's no way this guy is.

And it's also worth clarifying that the "unfavorable opinion" Tony mentions consists of one editor saying this is definitely not reliable, a second trying to redirect to a policy discussion of due weight (which I disagree with), and a third simply writing "Who?" The "unfavorable opinion" so far is just telling Tony the same thing Richard3120 went long on in the AfD which he refused to accept. QuietHere (talk) 13:08, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

"Refused to accept" paints the wrong picture. That makes it sound like I am trying to cram a keep through the process by hammering on Bessey. I am hard at work making the article more robust and well-rounded in many dimensions.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:58, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but you're also asking about the Bessey source in three different venues because the first two told you it wasn't acceptable. QuietHere (talk) 19:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Progarchy

Progarchy is a website dedicated to progressive rock. Its "About" page[1] includes "Our goal is to support beautiful music, specifically progressive rock in all its varied forms, through album reviews, interviews, concert reviews, and articles. We are all volunteers." It lists three "Editors", a number of "Progarchists", and appears to be well-organized. Currently, it's used as a source in 20 WP articles.[2]

A quick google book search[3] shows that Progarchy appears in a list of references for one academic-type book, where one of the listed editors is named in the main text. But that's about it; the other two editors don't show up and I didn't go through the Progarchists. The similarly named Prog Archives is listed on WP:NOTRSMUSIC with this discussion, but there doesn't appear to be a connection. Should Progarchy be considered a reliable source for WP purposes? Or perhaps just selected contributors?

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:06, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Progressive rock sources are a big problem in general for Wikipedia. The ones that are used most frequently for prog-related articles are Prog Archives, DPRP (Dutch Progressive Rock Page) and Sea of Tranquility, but none of them look like good sources to me, more like group blogs. But I also understand that it's difficult to find any coverage of this genre – the one genuinely reliable source that I know of is the UK's Prog magazine. Progarchy actually looks better than the three sources I listed above (it has editors and properly-conducted interviews with the big names of the genre), but I'll need to have a further look. Richard3120 (talk) 16:39, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

IPs have been trying to add prog rock for Led Zeppelin's version of "In My Time of Dying" for over a year. The latest added Progarchy as a source.[4] Written by Progarchist Connor Mullin, it mentions the song in passing, "Zeppelin’s repertoire only became more progressive after the immense success of IV ... Physical Graffiti not only featured their longest song ('In My Time of Dying', eleven minutes)", before praising "Kashmir" as "one of the finest progressive rock songs ever composed".

A google book search for Mullin doesn't show he has written any books or is mentioned in any music-related ones. Anyway, it's a stretch to use prog rock as a genre based on the fact that it is "their longest song", unless there is something special about the source.

—Ojorojo (talk) 18:25, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

For "In My Time of Dying", or for "Kashmir"? Not sure how you can use a description of one song as a genre for a completely different song. Led Zep weren't particularly proggy anyway, throughout their career - not sure I would even consider "Kashmir" as prog rock, its not the first genre that comes to mind when the song is usually described. Richard3120 (talk) 18:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)