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These Logos

These images fail wp:nfc, replaceable and convey little information

Image:Albania FA.gif decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Albania.svg
Image:Andorra FA.gif decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Andorra.svg
Image:Belgium urbsfa.gif decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Belgium.svg
Image:Luxembourg ff.png decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg
Image:Scotlandfootballlogo.PNG decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Scotland.svg

Fasach Nua (talk) 09:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would contest that those logos are not decorative on their respective FA's articles. The logo of a national FA is as important as a club's logo. – Pee Jay 12:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absoloutely there is no reason to have club logos either, the national teams are bit easier to deal with as they have an obvious replacement Wikipedia:NFC#Policy_2#1, you are correct the club logos do fail Wikipedia:NFC#Policy_2#8, and should also be removed, a point well raised. Fasach Nua (talk) 13:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you completely doolally? National teams don't have a free alternative as an identifier. If you mean the nation's flag, then that only helps to identify the nation, rather than the nation's national football team. As for club logos failing criterion #8, I don't see why that is. For most clubs, the club badge is integral to their history, and the inclusion of the logo allows a visual accompaniment to the history of the badge. – Pee Jay 14:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most international teams fly flags over their stadiums, the badge is just one of many ways they identify themselves, if you want a really solid way to identify the team, why not use the country code? If you were on an article, say Austria national football team, and it didnt have the logo, do you really think many readers need a corporate logo to identify it, I think including "national football team" in the name goes along way to helping people to identify the team, I cant even think what you could possibly misidentify these teams as. If the club logo is discussed, put it in the section discussing it, putting it in an infobox makes people think it is okay to abuse copyrighted materials on WP, which it isnt. However I am only interested in sorting out the international teams at this point in time Fasach Nua (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

National team crests are not the same as flags, and they convey more complex and accurate information than a simple flag would. matt91486 (talk) 16:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes they are not the same as flags, flags are used by FIFA and UEFA to represent the team, they are free and meet the criteria for inclusion, does the use of non-free crests meet the criteria for inclusion? Fasach Nua (talk) 10:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fairly explicitly. "Team and corporate logos: For identification." It's a team logo, quite simply. matt91486 (talk) 15:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In short, there are no images anywhere in the world that could better represent these national teams than their respective logos. I'm fairly sure Fair Use policy allows the use of these logos in cases such as this, provided that we don't go overboard and start using the logos willynilly about the place. One use on the national team's article isn't going to hurt anyone. – Pee Jay 20:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may not hurt anyone, but it does hurt the wikimedia foundation, as their use pushes the goal of a free encylopedia further away. I do not accept your statement that there are no images that can better represent a team, certainly organisations like FIFA and UEFA are content to use national flags, and they have a certain ammount of experience in th world of international Soccer Fasach Nua (talk) 06:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

National FAs should be viewed in the same way as companies. I doubt very much that anyone would argue against the use of the McDonalds logo or the Nike logo on their respective articles, so why argue against the use of national football association logos. – Pee Jay 13:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would have no problem removing logos from WP, I haven't come across a single one that is necessary, (although that is not to say there aren't any). There are soccer articles that dont use a logos such as Ireland, Saarland Scotish history, and they are perfectly fine articles. There is no doubt the articles look better with logos, but they are just there for decoration, and serve to defeat the purpose of Wikipedia. Fasach Nua (talk) 13:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The examples you picked are dubious at best. A historical team which presumably doesn't have an easily tracked down image, a non-sanctioned regional team, and a historical article on a team, for which fair use wouldn't be applicable. Your argument is not really strengthened by pointing that out. matt91486 (talk) 18:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is generally accepted that FIFA is the world governing body for soccer, and the fact Saar and Ireland are both recognised by FIFA, is generally enough sanction for most people. Ignoring your issues with FIFA, and indeed the original motivation behind not including copyrighted materials. The main thing to note with these three articles are they are about international football teams, and the reader is able to easily identify them without having to resort to copyrighted images, if it is possible to write completely free articles around these teams, it is possible with any team. Fasach Nua (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What? My issues with FIFA? I never said Ireland wasn't recognized by FIFA. I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to get at. Fair use EXPLICITLY ALLOWS team logos. So I'm not sure how this is possibly a discussion. The FA emblems serve as team logos. There is absolutely no reason to delete it. It's all well and good that you want free images, but you can't decide to suddenly go around deleting any image that you want, even if it clearly meets fair use license requirements. matt91486 (talk) 02:47, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with matt. This entire discussion is completely ill-founded. – Pee Jay 08:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree. This is way off base. It is a well established practise with accepted rationale here to use logos in an appropriate manner where it suits. "Defeat the purpose of Wikipedia"? C'mon. I hardly see it's impending collapse. And ultimately the purpose is to inform people and share knowledge. Why in the world should the primary virtue be to bulldoze it flat into a sterile landscape of sameness? Canada's football team. Canada's hockey team. Canada's curling team. Canada's baseball team. Canada's basketball team. Canada's basketball team. That does not inform or teach. It numbs. It causes confusion. It sucks the joy out of learning and exploration. It even smacks of a deliberate attempt to spread misinformation. The argument here is based on a narrow and close-minded interpretation of the rules that flies in the face of accepted practise. A no logos approach is extreme and while the use of logos may not suit your personal taste its been clearly demonstrated that the use of logos is accepted here through a concensus bound by its own specific rules and policies which cannot simply be ignored. Get past the wikilawyering and the copyright paranoia and adopt a common sense approach. I'm sure that if the threat to Wikipedia from logos was so serious we would see prompt and deliberate action taken. In the mean time a deeper understanding of the spirit of this place might be helpful. Wiggy! (talk) 12:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A "well established practice" is not a valid reason, the goal of wp is to create a free encylopedia, and to use replaceable free images is the antethisis of the goal of the organisation. To add non-free content to avoid a "sterile landscape" is unacceptable, the use of non-free content is based on neccessity, not decorative value. As for your accusations of "deliberate attempt to spread misinformation" would you also level these accusations at FIFA who demand the uses of these free images to represent the teams at every sporting event they partake in? Your final barrage of cliches, is well off topic, address the issue rather than anattempt an illthought out attempt at undermining the person that raised it. I absoloutely agree on one point, a deeper understanding of this place is essential. Fasach Nua (talk) 22:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Logos should not be removed from articles on clubs, companies, etc., period; they clearly serve as an important identifier of the respective organisation. —Nightstallion 02:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The use of logos here is a well-established practice "with its own rationale" that is "bound by its own specific rules and policies" - I'd think that would make it valid (and no cherry picking). The use of logos is legitimate and its unfair to ignore that and try to impose your own POV on their use, because what you've put forward amounts to little more than that. The use of non-free content is accepted here under specific conditions and that seems to escape you. You might want to go have a look at Wikipedia:Non-free content which accommodates the use of logos and other useful bits that can legitimately add something to the landscape.

And why would I level accusations of any sort at FIFA? That's got nothing to do with anything here. It's a red herring argument you've dragged out more than once. You're not getting any takers, give it up, or go get it properly sorted out in a broader context. Wiggy! (talk) 10:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you quoting yourself? it is just bizare, using quotes from yourself to back your own argument is an unhelpful approach. Wikipedia:Non-free content does not accomodate the use of non-free content that "add something to the landscape", it accommodates necessity, non-free content is only used if it would "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic", and there is "No free equivalent", these logos fail both these tests.

You havent addressed the issue, why is the use of flags to represent international football teams a "deliberate attempt to spread misinformation" if done of wikipedia, but if FIFA does this at every' football international it is not? As for a broader context, this has been clealy dealt with, and is already documented in Wikipedia:Non-free content Fasach Nua (talk) 11:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I quoted myself because you conveniently left out relevant bits of my comments when you quoted me. Take the whole point, not just what suits you. If you do that I won't have to be repeating myself to you.

Wikipedia:Non-free content accomodates the use of non-free content and specifically addresses the use of logos. Policy, guideline and consensus all support the use of logos. You appear to be deliberately ignoring that. Refer to 2.1.3.2 Acceptable use/Images/Logos. Then follow that to the guideline on the use of logos and understand that, while there is some debate about their use, it is acceptable to use them and that use is supported by concensus. That addresses the issue directly and anything else is your POV and unnecessarily pointy editing.

You have also misapprehended the meaning of "no free equivalent" in this context. Logos are intended for team identification. It is usual that they are owned by the team and are protected. The guideline for logo use acknowledges this and recognizes that there is no free equivalent for a logo. Given that the use of the logo is acceptable, ignoring that and trying to substitute a national flag or country code is unnecessary and insisting on it in the face of policy and guideline boils down to deliberately attempting to spread misinformation.

The use of sports team and other logos is clearly acceptable through policy, guideline, and consensus. If you continue to ignore that to push a POV built around a misunderstanding of the current non-free content policy your edits come down to being nothing but acts of vandalism. Either get 2.1.3.2 sorted out to match your view of the world or leave this go.

Finally, this needs to be sorted out through discussion, not through inconsiderate and aggressive editing. It is inappropriate for you to stalk me through my contributions to delete images to suit your view when a discussion is still in progress. I don't particualrly appreciate the attempt to browbeat me. Wiggy! (talk) 19:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The use of logos must still comply with wp:nfc, ragardless of the additional guidelines in their use. The guidelines make no referenece to national football team. There is no blanket policy allowing a

As for the demand "get 2.1.3.2 sorted out to match your view", this celarly supports my view, the prable states "Some copyrighted images may be used on Wikipedia, providing they meet both the legal criteria for fair use, and Wikipedia's own guidelines for non-free content", these logos still fail criteria #3 & #8. Neither of these issues have been addessed, and the wp:nfc is the consensus view.

You will have to cite how I am brow beating you over this issue. I note you have undone my cleanup of various German football articles in clear opposition to wp:nfc, for which I have issued you with warnings over your conduct. Fasach Nua (talk) 08:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It looks to me that these articles were in full conformance with wp:nfc, notably the section explicitly addressing logos. Showing the historic logo of a team is valid and encyclopedic use. There is no evidence of consensus to support the interpretation you're taking - in fact rather the opposite. Wiki-etiquette is Bold-revert-discuss. You have not followed that path. You have been requested to take this to talk, but instead have pushed your edits again. That looks like disruptive editing. Fasach Nua, please don't do it again until clear consensus for your edits has been established. Jheald (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The club logos should be kept. Else use

for the American company, McDonald's. --Knulclunk (talk) 02:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The flag is used by the sports governing body to represent the local organisations, is there a similar policy implemented by the govening body of fast food to use thaa flag to represent McDonalds? Fasach Nua (talk) 07:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not a question up for debate here. We use logos to represent companies, sports teams, etc. That's very well accepted and not something subject to case-by-case review. Wikidemo (talk) 07:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On the balance of arguments I think that these logos do fall within WP:NFCC and as such they will be kept. Stifle (talk) 09:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fasach Nua. some people would acknowledge your bravery of raising such an issue. But as you can see, most people (including myself now) do NOT. It's actually the opposite. Listen to the basic and extremely important facts seeing as this is a specific encyclopedia site. The national flags represent the nation itself. Thats why they are used on the WP pages of the actual country. Using them to represent national football teams is not valid. They are not specific and do not completely apply to the national team. Some people (players) may want to be established as a member of the national team rather than a member of the actual nation. Thats just as well seeing as there are numerous foreigners in many teams. Be reasonable. Using the national flag causes confusion, arguments and further disparities like I just mentioned with foreigners. Its not suitable. Even if it is immediately known what the national team is and where it is from, its still necessary to have the logo. Just as it is necessary to have a picture of the subject on their WP page. People may want to simply know what the logo (or subject) looks like etc. Logo's all the way!

And I really hope you can oversee this when opposing to further FA candidates. No offense, but you unnecessarily raised an issue which diminished the chances of the Croatian national football team being promoted as a FA. It is legal etc to use these logos, the national flags do not count as suitable replacements. I expect this to be resolved shortly by the time I issue another nomination! Domiy (talk) 07:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Metro martin carrera.gif

I'm bringing this logo here to be on the safe side, because it actually does seem to fall within Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria--more than many logos, I would image, since the content of the logo itself is discussed in the article. However, the image was listed at WP:CP on June 27th, and the IP editor who tagged the image here was quite correct in noting that "iconography and typography of Sistema de Transporte Colectivo de la Ciudad de México owns copyrights and its replica is not permitted without authorization of STC-Metro, check-it in the bottom of website http://www.metro.df.gob.mx/red/linea1.html". Yup, it says that at the bottom of the website. That same IP editor has requested deletion of the related image at Mexico City Metro from commons. Given the "whois" check on that IP, I wouldn't be surprised if the objection were not somewhat (or someone) official. Is such a specific claim of rights sufficient to off-balance NFCC? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Is such a specific claim of rights sufficient to off-balance NFCC?". No. Part of the reason for the strict rules in WP:NFCC is to ensure that that law would allow us to use the non-freely licensed work even if its copyright holder isn't happy about our use. (Although I suspect most logo usage is on the weaker side on that point). Public discourse requires that we sometimes be able to take from some copyrighted works in order to identify and discuss things. --Gmaxwell (talk) 12:16, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Hans Island 003.jpg

I have marked this photo for fair use review, because, i'm not sure weither it falls under Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Unacceptable_images.6:

A photo from a press agency (e.g. AP), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article. This applies mostly to contemporary press photos and not necessarily to historical archives of press photos.

The author apprently has sold the rights to danish press-photo agency PolFoto. The use of the photo in the danish navy magazines was an part of this agreement. Since the photo is from 2002, i am not sure weither it falls into the category of "historical archives of press photos". --Hebster (talk) 12:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unsure about this, but do we really need the picture? --Apoc2400 (talk) 08:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lose both the Danish and the Canadian flag images -- NFCC #8. I can't see that either of them give the reader a significantly improved understanding of the subject of the article. Jheald (talk) 15:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:TV Theme - Pingu.ogg, Image:TV Theme - Pingu (dance version).ogg

Both files are copies of the complete recording, not a part of it. BigBlueFish (talk) 21:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A small part of the recording should be cut out. --Apoc2400 (talk) 08:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually they are too short to cut. I removed them from the article. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:DRA5.jpg

Copy of a QSL card. Claimed fair use on 3 articles. Seems stretching it a bit, as this particular station or QSL card is not discussed. Please review. Thanks. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 14:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replaceable and/or not needed. I will removed the image from the articles. --Apoc2400 (talk) 08:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Perfectstrangers.jpg in Bronson Pinchot

What do you think about this use? Is it motivated. My gut feeling is no, it should be deleted, but I'm not sure. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Polkadotpuss3.jpg in Measles

There is no fair-use rationale for using this image in Measles, and I doubt that a valid one could be found. --B. Wolterding (talk) 15:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Completely unnecessary. I removed it from Measles. --Apoc2400 (talk) 21:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif in M1 carbine

Please discuss at Talk:M1 carbine#Malcolm X photo. howcheng {chat} 03:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Frederikshavncoat-arms.jpg

An more free version of similar quality and size now exists on commons (as Frederikshavn logo 02.png) and thus i think that this is in contradiction to WP:NFCC criteria 1 (No free equivalent) and should be deleted. Further-more this is no-longer in use on any articles. --Hebster (talk) 08:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added the orphaned fair use template to it. It will be deleted soon. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Various images used at Hairway to Steven

This article is packed with cover images, including spotlights of the back cover listed with each song. These seem excessive by WP:NFCC. (Since this is not my primary point of contribution, I sought feedback at media copyright questions before listing it here. Presuming the use of the front cover is legitimate, at question here is

Image:Butthole Surfers Hairway Back.jpg, back cover.
Image:Butthole Surfers Hairway Sleeve 1.jpg, inner sleeve
Image:Butthole Surfers Hairway Sleeve 2.jpg, inner sleeve
Image:Hairwayfront.jpg, also labeled "back cover".
Image:Butthole Hairway 1.jpg, detail
Image:Butthole Hairway 2.jpg, detail
Image:Butthole Hairway 3.jpg, detail
Image:Butthole Hairway 4.jpg, detail
Image:Butthole Hairway 5.jpg, detail
Image:Butthole Hairway 6.jpg, detail
Image:Butthole Hairway 7.jpg, detail
Image:Butthole Hairway 8.jpg, detail

These are all used to illustrate one album, and none of them is accompanied by commentary. I'm not sure if these should be tagged {{dfu}}, but given that the problem may be more readily apparent when they are viewed in aggregate, thought to bring them here. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely excessive. Remove that all except for the front cover I say. --Apoc2400 (talk) 09:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed them from the article and tagged them {{orfud}}. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:24, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ne me quitte pas#Original meaning

This section gives the entire lyrics of the song translated into English. There is a discussion going on at Talk:Ne me quitte pas#Alleged copyvio as to whether including them is appropriate. Please join the discussion there. —An gr 06:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Microsoft Update in Windows XP.PNG

Uploaded image resolution is 1600 x 1200 x 24BPP. Image size is 123KB. This appears to breach WP:NFCC #3b. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've accordingly tagged it as Template:Non-free reduce. -Andrew c ^[talk] 12:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A screenshot is only a tiny part of the original work (Windows Update), so we don't need to make it smaller for NFCC reasons. Still, the important parts would be shown more clearly in a lower resolution. --Apoc2400 (talk) 15:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the original image. The absolute resolution is high, sure, but that doesn't mean the image should be resized down so that the text is unreadable. I don't have Windows XP anymore so I can't create a more suitably-sized image, but I'm sure someone will get to it eventually. Warren -talk- 06:54, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Reticulah.jpg

This is a directly scanned page out of a book still under copyright. The page does not satisfy criteria 1 of WP:NFCC policy. It would be relatively straightforward to create a free equivalent of this image, and therefore it should not be used. Chaldor (talk) 07:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Will tag appropriately. howcheng {chat} 07:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Hand of God goal.jpg

I realize this image has been reviewed previously, and I'm not arguing for deletion, but I believe this requires a second look, as the current rationales are based on a misinterpretation of fair use in my opinion.

This image qualifies as fair use, not because of what it illustrates, but because the photograph itself was at the center of the controversy, as this was the only image, still or moving, that conclusively showed the Hand of God goal was indeed a handball.

So clearly, it needs to be in the Hand of God goal article. However, it should not be in Argentina and England football rivalry, as the latter article does not discuss the photograph itself, and the photograph is rather irrelevant for the Argentina and England football rivalry.

It seems that the current rationales are written with using the photograph to merely illustrate the subject, which is not fair use. Fair use is permitted for discussion of the image.

For the same reason, while it should stay in the article, it should be moved down to the section discussing the media reaction, rather than at the top. Mosmof (talk) 02:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've decided to go ahead and remove the image from the rivalry article and delete the corresponding rationale. So in effect, I'm withdrawing the review, but I would still appreciate any feedback. --Mosmof (talk) 02:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:BrianUNM.JPG

I've questioned whether this image meets WP:NFCC#1 on a couple of occasions, but in both cases, the image was kept without any real discussion of NFCC. Quite simply, the image is non-notable and does not serve any purpose that couldn't be replaced by prose.

And the following points in the rationale seem awfully specious:

It is used in Wikipedia only for informational and educational purposes, and is not used for profit.
Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because it shows the subject of this article
Since he no longer attends UNM, any picture of him as a student at UNM is an unrepeatable historic event.
The image is from a Media Guide, it was intended for mass distribution in order to promote the UNM.

Could I get an actual discussion on the merits on this image's non-free image rationale? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mosmof (talk • contribs) 02:38, 16 August 2008

Inasmuch as there is a free image of Urlacher at Commons: Image:302343997 76a1a28f71.jpg, this use fails WP:NFCC#1. It also fails WP:NFCC#8, for the the article’s only critical commentary on the image is that Urlacher sets a weight lifting record at the University of New Mexico; this is perfectly clear without the image. —teb728 t c 08:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Teb created an IfD. --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Walt Brown (creationist).jpg

Does not seem to fit with the fair use rationale. Just wanted to see opinions. We66er (talk) 20:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's not much of a rationale. It doesn't address any of the WP:NFCCs. Doesn't explain why a free image can't be created. --Mosmof (talk) 23:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replaceable. I removed the image from the article. --Apoc2400 (talk) 09:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:MerkelMax.jpg

Image:ADM Mike Hudson, RAN.jpg

I know this may seem a bit odd, my bringing these here, since I wrote their FUR. I encountered both of them working at the copyright problem board and believed that since the subjects were dead a fair use could be made. I based my FUR on Image:Paul Hill.jpg. Since that image had been around a while, I presumed it was properly done. Now, however, one that I questioned at MCQ has been nominated for IfD, and a responder there indicates of that image (a similar situation, with same rationale):

**Allow me to point you to [1] which discusses the famous JonBenet Ramsey photo which was widely distributed, mainly this quote from David Tomlin, Associate General Counsel of The Associated Press:
The fair use arguments for ignoring ZUMA's [the copyright holder of the JonBenet photo] assertion of rights to control the image are very weak. Fair use can allow an otherwise infringing use of a photo where it is the photo itself -- not what is depicted in the photo -- that is news.

Our usage of this is not even close to fair use by U.S. standards at all. howcheng {chat} 18:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)}}

If that's correct, then these aren't fair use, either. Since that contributor is an admin at commons, I don't doubt he knows quite a lot more about fair use allowances than I do. :) Other than these, the vast majority of my image experience has been with album covers, which are relatively uncomplicated. Most others issues I've broached at MCQ. I bring them here for review, because it seems a bit odd for me to write a FUR for them and then delete them because of an inadequate FUR. I am also going to separately list one that I uploaded myself, because I suspect is may have a stronger claim to presence than these, though I don't know that for sure. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check out Fair use. A small image used for educational purposes by a non-profit organisation has a very strong claim to fair use. Ty 00:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That might be true if Wikipedia weren't one of the top ten visited sites in the world (i.e., our usage of the material reaches a wide audience, as opposed to a teacher reprinting copyrighted work for use in a classroom of 20 students). Additionally, our non-free content criteria are intentionally more restrictive than what U.S. laws allow because it is inconsistent with our mission of providing free (as in unrestricted) content to everyone. howcheng {chat} 02:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Cajkovski zlatko.jpg

The last image used to illustrate the article Zlatko Čajkovski was listed at WP:CP and deleted, as not only was it a plainly copyrighted image featuring this man, but it featured two others, as well--one of whom was alive. I found this photo at the Croatian Wikipedia and uploaded it with a FUR, since the permission at the Croatian Wikipedia likely does not cover us. If the images above fail FU, this may also. I list it separately because it is under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported at its source. I don't know if that makes a difference. I bring it here for evaluation from more knowledgeable image editors. Thanks. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:JIDF FB Sample 2.jpg

This question was raised at WP:CP, but we no longer handle images there, so I'm moving it here for review. The contributor who raised the matter there said:

“

Image:JIDF FB Sample 2.jpg (history · last edit). The problem isn't the screenshot image itself, which comes from [2], but the images within the screenshot, which may be subject to copyright. See, for example, Image:HamasLogo.jpg, one of the images in the screenshot. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 03:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

”

I am notifying him that the discussion has been moved. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the logos are surely copyrighted. I don't see how the image improves the article anyway. --Apoc2400 (talk) 19:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Please keep this section live for now, it's being debated on article Talk. Thanks. HG | Talk 21:02, 26 August 2008 (UTC) )[reply]

Comment: Are pictures of a logo really the same as the logo itself? Suppose someone took a picture of a billboard, to illustrate what a billboard was, and the billboard contained the iPod logo which has been copyrighted... does that really make the picture of the billboard copyrighted? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem rather silly if that were the case. Forgive me for this breach of WP:AGF, but based on this diff, I believe that User:Malik Shabazz's motivation for reporting the image was not out of concern of violating copyright, but rather because he doesn't like it that the JIDF agrees with the choice of image. I hope you will look into the matter further, and discover whether the image really can be considered to be in violation of copyright. I hope to restore the image or replace it with an undoubtedly ok alternative. ← Michael Safyan^(talk) 21:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, regardless of our motivations, a precise opinion on the copyright aspects would be appreciated. Thank you. HG | Talk 22:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, but I think that in the situation you describe the billboard would be considered a derivative work that should be replaced by a free alternative. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 22:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not correct. A picture of a logo in a given setting, e.g. a picture of an advertisement that contains a logo, is not a derivative work. It is a new work. Misuse of a logo in this circumstances would be a matter for trademark law, not copyright law (if the logo was use to misrepresent something). This is not the case here. A logo can be used to identify... which is the case here. Oboler (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment See WP:LOGO#Negative logos: "Logos should not be used in contexts which are, taken as a whole, strongly negative." --John Nagle (talk) 02:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, but you do realize that Hamas is officially designated as a terrorist organization by Canada, the EU, Israel, Japan, and the United States, right? It is not as if the context is any more negative than its normal use. If we are to read WP:LOGO#Negative logos excessively literally, then IMHO the logo should not even appear on the Hamas article page. After reading the entire WP:LOGO#Negative logos section, it appears that the intent of the policy is to prohibit parodies of logos, the defacing of logos, and the placement of logos alongside negative items with which the logo is not normally associated. The logo in the image is doing none of those things. It is simply associating the logo with Hamas and, since the logo is the Hamas logo afterall, there is nothing unusual or malicious about this association. ← Michael Safyan^(talk) 03:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I agree with Michael that it's hard to put Hamas in a negative light. The main part of logo policy seems to be: "Avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote something. Generally, logos should be used only when the logo is reasonably familiar or when the logo itself is of interest for design or artistic reasons." In this instance, though, is the logo being used (by JIDF) to promote the JIDF agenda? What do you all think? HG | Talk 03:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are misreading WP:LOGO#Advertisements. It is not as if this were a Nike Swoosh or the Coca-Cola logo where it might be used to promote a particular brand or product. In fact, the logo is not the main part of the image, and the image is not trying to promote the subject of the logo. You are correct in that it "promotes" the JIDF by illustrating what it does; however, I again think that the intent of the WP:LOGO#Advertisements policy is to prevent the use of corporate logos to promote a brand or product, not to prevent Wikipedia from illustrating the views of a particular company or organization. Perhaps we can get a few of the editors of the WP:LOGO policy to explain the intentions of the policy as well as how the policy ought to be interpreted vis-a-vis this image. ← Michael Safyan^(talk) 03:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LOGO starts by referring to WP:NFCC, which is the controlling policy. There's no indication that the use of the Hamas logo in the JIDF article satisfies the conditions laid out at WP:NFCC, particularly #1 and #8. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 03:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Well that brings us back to the previous argument... Lawyers, a clarification on the copyright status of the image would be greatly appreciated. ← Michael Safyan^(talk) 03:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]], the logo's usage in an Faceboog group description by parties unknown, then captured by the JIDF and uploaded to their site as part of a screen shot showing various groups on Facebook, is a fair use by JIDF. It does nto need to conform to any WP (I don't comment on whether it does or doesn't - just that this is not a consideration). The inclusion in Wikipedia need only confirm that the image may reaosnably be used to talk about the JIDF, either because permission is granted, the image is in the public domain, or because it is fair use. There doesn;t seem to be any idea here. Oboler (talk) 13:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oboler, please read WP:LOGO and WP:NFCC concerning the use of images on Wikipedia. It doesn't matter what the JIDF does and what their attitude is toward copyright. We must comply with Wikipedia policy in this matter. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 16:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment Do we have a source for this picture? I just looked at the JIDF's Facebook page [3], and this isn't a screenshot of their page. It's a copy of a picture on their page which is apparently a screenshot of some page elsewhere. Of what is this a picture? --John Nagle (talk) 16:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

John Nagle, the photo comes from here. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 16:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) The origin: it apparently comes from the JIDF Facebook group. I found a similar image in the "Notes" page, indicating that they tried posting several versions. (Perhaps picked up by their minifeed?) But how is this germane to the copyright aspect? HG | Talk 16:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Ok. I get it, see next cmt. HG | Talk 20:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The image is derived from other material; the underlying works may be copyrighted. We have to track it back to the original source. I found the source of the "bed" cartoon shown in the image.[4]. It's by "Nabucho", a cartoonist for the Arab-European League, part of a series they ran in response to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. --John Nagle (talk) 17:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the above discussion of the logos may be irrelevant. For the image taken as a whole is non-free. As such any use of it on Wikipedia must conform to Wikipedia’s Non-free content criteria policy. But it fails WP:NFCC#8, “Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic.” The article could say in text that JIDF targets Facebook groups like the “Hezbollah,” “Based on the facts… There was no Holocaust,” and “Hamas Lovers” groups. The image would not significant add to that. A use could probably fulfill US fair use law, but Wikipedia’s policy on non-free content is substantially more restrictive than that. —teb728 t c 20:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Archives

1. March 2006–July 2007
2. August 2007–December 2007
3. January 2008–Present

These Logos

These images fail wp:nfc, replaceable and convey little information

Image:Albania FA.gif decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Albania.svg
Image:Andorra FA.gif decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Andorra.svg
Image:Belgium urbsfa.gif decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Belgium.svg
Image:Luxembourg ff.png decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg
Image:Scotlandfootballlogo.PNG decorative only and can be replaced with Image:Flag_of_Scotland.svg