Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sarandioti/Archive

Sarandioti

Sarandioti (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

Report date September 13 2009, 04:52 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppets

• Alarichus (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

Evidence submitted by User:Athenean

• User:Alarichus begins editing at 03:36 on 20 July 2009 [1], immediately prior to Sarandioti receiving a month-long block from User:Nishkid64 for disruptive behavior at 03:20 on 21 July 2009 [2]. His very first edits [3] [4] [5] show that Alarichus is highly knowledgeable about Wikipedia editing, including how to add references in proper format. This alone indicates that Alarichus has almost certainly edited before, although it does not prove he is Sarandioti.
• Even stranger, when Sarandioti was blocked in the past, he protested loudly [6] [7], issuing multiple unblock requests every time [8] [9], as further evidenced on his talkpage. Yet after his last block, nothing. Complete radio silence, not even a peep. Sarandioti has not edited even after his block expired except for 2-3 edits on Aug. 25..
• Sarandioti has stated that he lives in Greece [10], and the time-signature of his edits [11] is consistent with someone editing in Greece's time zone. It is also remarkably similar to the time signature of Alarichus' edits [12].
• Alarichus claims he is not from the Balkans, but his passionate subscription to and defense of the Albanian POV in a recent TfD debate is suspicious (namely, that the term "Northern Epirus" is irredentist and should be avoided at all costs) [13] [14] [15]. He is also strangely intent on pursuing vendettas against the same users (Factuarius, Alexikoua) that Sarandioti was [16] [17] [18]. This is very perplexing.
• Alarichus' style of writing is highly reminiscent of that Sarandioti (accusatory, aggressive, somewhat condescending). Examples below.

• Short, successive, accusatory questions: S [19] A [20] [21].
• A perplexing inability to capitalize the word "Greek" under any circumstances, even though other words in the same passage are duly capitalized: S [22] [23] A [24].
• Ending with posts with statements to the effect of "This is sad" or "This is disappointing": S [25] A [26].
• Telling other users to "wait until this process is over": S [27] A [28].
• Admonishing users not to write until process X is over: S [29] [30] A [31] [32].
• Statements to the effect "Sure, if anything comes up I'll...": S [33] A[34].
• Statements to the effect of: "And please stop commenting on me": S [35] A [36].
• Telling people to go to his talkpage instead of "here": S [37] A [38].
• Telling other users "you do not understand what I said": S [39] A [40].
• Sarandioti is a stickler for spelling, always going back and fixing the spelling of his posts, as does Alarichus: S [41] [42] [43] [44] A [45] [46] [47].

Alarichus' tone and style particularly in the ANI and TfD discussions sounds very much like Sarandioti to me. --Athenean (talk) 04:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

New Evidence

• Alarichus here seems to be taunting [48] Factuarius. Strange behavior for someone who is presumably innocent. His continuous insinuations against Factuarius, even on this very page, are stranger still. Why would a seemingly new user have such beef with Factuarius?
• Checkuser has established that Alarichus uses highly dynamic IPs. Such a behavior would appear consistent with a sockpuppeteer trying to cover his tracks, and would also partially explain the smugness with which Alarichus is taunting Factuarius.
• Alarichus' explanations are becoming more and more convoluted. From Ticino, but staying in a hotel in Syntagma, using no less than 16 netcafes. Why so many? I am from Athens, and I happen to know there aren't that many netcafes in downtown. To go to 16 netcafes would mean covering a huge area. Why go through such trouble? I think the answer is obvious. How long have you been staying in Athens Alarichus? Since you started editing? Must have deep pockets, downtown Athens is an expensive place, particularly for a "telecommunications student". On the other hand, downtown Athens is frequented by many Albanian immigrants, who would be using netcafes as they probably do not have internet at home.
• Even more intriguing, the main accused, Sarandioti, has seemingly vanished from the face of the Earth. Strange for someone so passionate and determined to vanish without a trace, without even defending himself from such grave accusations. The overall pattern of behavior is similar to the Deucalionite/Elysonius case (for those who are familiar with it). --Athenean (talk) 20:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Evidence submitted by User:Alexikoua

• Sarandioti contributed from May 26 to July 21 [[49]], with an addition of 4 minor edits in a last appearance in August 21. His contribution was considered highly disruptive with wp:npa, civility, 3rr [[50]] [[51]], reaching 6 blocks[[52]], with his last one in July 21, plus an one revert limit.

• Alarichus started to contribute to Wikipedia from July 20 [[53]], 23 hours before Sarandioti’s last ban. Although complaining in such cases and always making unblock requests, Sarandioti all of the sudden disappeared (just a brief appearance in August 21).

• The time pattern while both accounts were actively contributing: from July 20, 02:36 to July 21 01:27, (23 hours) is very clear that there were not simultaneous contributions from both accounts.

• Both users share the same isp with approximately the same i.p.: a series of reverts by Sarandioti in June 4, while intentionally unlogged in order to evade 3rr in his edit-wars revealed his i.p.: [[54]], as well as Alarichus’ ‘whois’ information in irc simply proves that. As I know their isp provides a dynamic ip address in a limited range, and that’s obvious since Alarichus joins irc:wikipedia-en, with a slightly different ip almost each day.

• A weird evidence of inconsistency is that Alarichus asked for the translation of an off-wiki text from Greek to English (with Latin characters), pretending that he doesn’t know Greek [[55]] . However, his whois info in irc clearly shows that he lives in Greece (Athens). Considering that he joins the irc channel more than a month, with his whois info always pointing to Athens, something is really weird with this situation. By the way Sarandioti spoke Greek very well [[56]] [[57]] and was active in irc too [[58]].

• Alarichus, from 20 July, has a good contribution for a rookie in minor edits in non Greek-Albanian topics. This contribution was not always without being massively reverted [[59]] [[60]], with the reason that his conts were unexplained.

• After becoming a ca. 45 day experienced user he decided to initiate as a ‘third part’ user, a Greek-Albanian dispute in the deletion of the template:Northern Epirus. However, in the process he decided to leave his neutrality and take the part of the one side. Moreover, accused the Greek side for launching a sock-meatpupetry concert. Quite wierd behavior for a determined newcomer in wiki to make such moves.

• Alarichus made adjustments after ‘being asked from irc’, in template:Northern Epirus, still without explaining a real reason. Most of the template’s articles he deleted were of highly importance for Sarandioti too [[61]], [[62]], [[63]]

• Both userpages are of similar inspiration: A. Hitler and anarchism, Satan stuff, with a variety of revolutionary extremist style quotes.

• Alarichus vollunteered in Aug. 31 to review for 'gan' Vikos-Aoos National Park, the article received a 'quick fail', without quick criteria being checked [[64]] as per Wikipedia:Reviewing_good_articles#First_things_to_look_for, instead of reciving an 'on hold' status. Sarandioti considered that this region is Albanian (ancient Molossis/Molissians) in Himara discussion page.

I believe, as per User:Factuarius pointed, that these two accounts are used by the same person. It's really hard to believe the opposite, but everyone can extract his own results and opinions.Alexikoua (talk) 11:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments by accused parties    See Defending yourself against claims.

I am no one's sock. I joined on July 15, 2009. Read the guidelines, then started contributing. All these claims saying that I am a sock are based on my spelling or anything else which is irrelevant. I have 1 ga and 8 dyk. Everybody in the irc knows that I write from a dynamic ip, which changes all the time and so it wouldn't surprise me if it got in someone's ip. Everybody knows that I have edited from many ips. If I have 4 commons ips in over 120, its not really a fact for anything. And I find it a bit suspicious that User:Factuarius whom I suspect for sockpuppetry didn't file this by himself. Was it because he would be checked? Just asking.

Conclusion:I have 4 ips common with someone in over 120 ips I have used, I commented on one discussion in which another user is interested once, in 900 contributions with gas and dyks. My ip in the irc is public at all times, and many people even know the hotel I'm staying in Athens. I write from 1 hotel, 16 net cafes in constitution(or however that is called in greek) vicinity, and 1 free wifi bar. So, I leave it up to you. --Alarichus (talk) 08:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't share similar interests with the user whose sock I am accused to be.

Articles he frequently edits:[65]

Articles I frequently edit: [66]

On the bottom of the page, press the "frequently edited pages" link. That shows that I do not edit the same articles.

Also many people fix their grammar errors, that doesn't show that one user is another user's sockpuppet.--Alarichus (talk) 10:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand why you connect Nietzsche with Hitler?Is that evidence that shows I'm a sock?

I don't know greek, and that is why I asked for a translation. Yes, I have been in Greece, as I have been in Turkey, Italy, and Egypt. Everybody who knows me in wiki, knows that I am from Ticino.

I didn't pass that GAN because it indeed it wasn't a GA or "on hold". And before doing that, I asked many experienced users.

The problem here, is that 3 users, who just do not like the fact that I did not support their belief, want me blocked.

I do not even have a fixed ip, so 4/80-90 ips, doesn't show anything.--Alarichus (talk) 11:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I haven't even been warned for edit-warring or anything like that. The only time when I was reverted, was because of a malfunction of the wikiED addon(which supposedly fixes wikicode errors), for which I apologised. --Alarichus (talk) 14:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Athenean you commented on me , saying that I have an inability to say "Greek". I don't really understand your argument, since [67]. But even if I did not say "Greek" and said "greek", I really don't think that would be an argument showing that I'm a sock.--Alarichus (talk) 17:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments by other users

Well this is case is complex indeed, but sometimes 1 IP or the same ranges as said in the check user is used by 3-10 people, one person vandalizes in that IP range but different Lan IP, gets the whole IP blocked and blocking innocent people. So in the case of Alarichus thats whats happening in my opinion its not him someone else in Lan doing it. (basic networking) :P I dont support the block, more evidence required. Danger^Mouse (talk) 09:36, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The idea of blocking a whole range for one suspected sock who does not appear to have violated any major rules feels problematic. Other people may use that range and the assumption of good faith feels like it should be in play here. why punish other possible users? And if the infractions are not that serious, it should not warrant that type of response. It looks like more investigation should be done and behavior would need to escalate before going forward with a block. --PurplePopple (talk) 13:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems like this "sockpuppet" is not doing anything bad. Also the user claims that he uses public PC's. It's highly possible that these people come from the same walks of life and have the same views but one knows how to use wikipedia for good. I say that before anything else happens we should Whois the suspected IP's and see if they are public places. Irunongames • play 15:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I, too, have some doubts, just by looking at the abuse patterns in the two accounts. Currently, Sarandioti is not blocked. Alarichus hasn't even received even a single warning for edit-warring. Doing a spot-check on both users' contribs (in particular their communications with other editors), they seem to both have different demeanor and behavioral patterns present. I think it's very unlikely that this is "good hand, bad hand" as past cases have shown from time to time that you're going to get part of the "good hand" in the "bad hand" and vice-versa, sooner or later (which I haven't seen in my check). Combine that with the dynamic nature of the IPs, I don't readily see it. Hence, Alarichus might have simply been in the wrong place and at the wrong time. MuZemike 15:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Since "Alarichus has not broken any rules per se, and Sarandioti is not evading a block and entitled to multiple accounts", why should we care? I came here after I run into several good articles by Alarichus and wanted to thank him for his help. I don't see any reason to block him, and I would unblock him if I saw such a request. PS. Evidence wise, Alarcichus is creating good content related to Polish–Ottoman War (1683-1699) (Battle of Parkany , Battle of Podhajce (1667)), a subject in which Sarandioti wasn't interested (AFAIK). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Sarandioti was evading a block through the Alarichus sock all throughout early August. He was also trying to deceive the community about his past and the revert restrictions that were imposed on him. Considering his highly checquered past, he should be blocked indefinitely, not unblocked. At the very least, he should be topic banned from Balkans'related articles. --Athenean (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Such topic ban may be considered; personally I don't want to lose an editor who shows rare interest (and ability to write well about) 18th century Poland- and Ottoman- related issues. Using surgical restrictions instead of banhammer is usually a good idea. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I see your point. However, we are talking about one of the most troublesome and disruptive users on Balkan related topics [68]. He is motivated by extreme hatred of Greek people [69] (referring to the Pontian Genocide). And now he has added sockpuppetry to his rapsheet. However, considering your point, I suppose I could live with a topic ban on Balkan-related topics, provided it is (a) broadly defined and (b) indef. Oh and one more thing. This user should not ever be allowed to run for admin status or any other sort of privileges. I think that is self-evident, but I would like to clarify my position on the matter just in case. --Athenean (talk) 22:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There is not a single reason for Alarichus to be unblocked, evidence is overwhelming anyway. Off course, he can continue to contribute in such topics (non-Balkan) with his first account. Actually Sarandioti, has violated his 1 revert limit in template:Northern Epirus, ( [[70]] as Alarichus), a topic ban should be appropriate on balkan related topics. Since he is interested in Ottoman-Polish and East Europe military history, noone prohibits User:Sarantiti to do that. However, history proves that it is most likely to appear with a third account this time.Alexikoua (talk) 05:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

CheckUser requests

Checkuser request – code letter: F (Other reason )

Current status – Completed: Reviewed by a Checkuser, results and comments are below.

Although based on the above, I am fairly certain that this case passes WP:DUCK, a checkuser would be useful in proving this beyond any doubt. While Alarichus has not broken any rules per se, and Sarandioti is not evading a block and entitled to multiple accounts, I believe this is an attempt by Sarandioti to deceive the community about his checquered past and is as such unacceptable. --Athenean (talk) 04:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments

 Confirmed This case is rather complex, but I am certain that these two users are being controlled by the same person.

The facts:

• Both of these users are editing from the same range, a /16 (which is 65536 IP addresses).
• These users have the same operating system, but there is no overlap with user agents.
• This IP range is crazily dynamic - Both users have edited from well over 70 separate IP addresses.
• These accounts have four IP addresses in common. That is, there are four IP addresses that both users have edited from.
• On three of these four, both accounts have edited within 4 hours of each other.

I find the odds of two completely distinct people, who both have the same interests, the same ideals, and who have many of the same characteristics and style of diction, editing from the same IP address at practically the same time on three separate occasions to be extremely low.

And when you take into account how incredibly dynamic the IP addresses are, and couple it with the fact that any account on that range has access to more than 65000 IP addresses, I do not think there is any room for doubt that these two accounts are being controlled by the same person. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 06:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess that's what comes from running checkuser queries at two in the morning. {{trout}} for me, and I'll look at this more closely when I get a chance. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 15:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with J.delanoy's initial conclusion. The technical evidence alone points toward sockpuppetry.  Confirmed. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 21:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

And upon re-review, I think that my original thoughts are most likely correct. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 22:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

A question remains of what sanctions to issue. I'm somewhat familiar with Sarandioti's edit history, from having tried to calm down some disputes on articles where he was involved. One reason for the creation of Alarichus as an alternate account might have been to escape Sarandioti's block log and his restriction. (Nishkid had restricted him to one revert per article per week under ARBMAC). Since Alarichus was active in early August, this was clearly an *evasion* of Sarandioti's month-long block. Since the creation of the immaculate 'Alarichus' identity seems to be a deceptive maneuver, it is very hard to assume good faith. (It matches the 'avoiding scrutiny' clause of WP:SOCK). I'd suggest an indefinite block of Alarichus, with the expectation that the editor behind User:Sarandioti will use only a single account to edit Wikipedia in the future. Sarandioti would (under this proposal) not be blocked but would remain under the 1RR per week restriction that was previously imposed. EdJohnston (talk) 02:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

So Sarandioti gets away without so much as a slap on the wrist? You are far too lenient Ed. This deception shows nothing but contempt for wikipedia policies and the community. There needs to be a ZERO-tolerance policy for this kind of behavior, especially in Balkans-related articles. What if he had gone on undetected? What kind of message are we sending here? I too am under a 1RR restriction. Should I too start sockpuppet accounts in order to deceive the community? Might as well, since I know that Sarandioti did the same thing and got away with it. This guy has done nothing but edit-war, POV-push, pursue vendettas against other users, and now attempted to deceive the entire community. In less than two months, he has figured in countless confrontations and edit wars, and has managed to rack up an impressive 5 blocks within this time frame. Following his latest month-long block, he was one block away from indef. Enough. This is the final straw. He does not need to edit wikipedia, and wikipedia certainly does not need his edits. How much havoc does he have to wreak before the community says enough? I spent two afternoons gathering the evidence for this case. Two afternoons that could otherwise have been spent productively and that I'm not going to get back. I can't go on doing this continuously. Such behavior threatens the very stability of wikipedia and cannot go on unpunished. --Athenean (talk) 03:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm convinced that this user will soon (if not yet, considering the Sarndioti-Alarichus time pattern) create an additional sock account with a much more careful wp:duck activity this time. His level of fanatism is too high in order to accept blocks and bans, as his past proves.Alexikoua (talk) 05:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Conclusions

 Clerk note: User indefinitely blocked. MuZemike 15:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

• Note that the sockmaster (Sarandioti) is blocked for 3 months by MuZemike, and the sock (Alarichus) is indefinitely blocked by NuclearWarfare. Nathan ^T 15:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

This case has been marked as closed. It has been archived automatically.

---

Report date September 28 2009, 21:16 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppets

• Kreshnik25 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Lceliku (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

Evidence submitted by User:Athenean

• The User:Kreshnik25 and Lceliku accounts are created a few days after the indef blocking of Sarandioti's previous sock User:Alarichus [71]. A discussion on Alarichus on ANI Wikipedia:ANI#Proposed unblock of User:Alarichus was exhausted on September 17th, Kreshnik appears a week after that on September 24th.
• Kreshnik immediately dives head first into multiple, ongoing edit disputes, such as Souliotes [72] and Djakovica [73].
• When asked how he found out about the ongoing disputes he immediately joined [74], Kreshnik fudges and dodges [75]. Other users have also expressed suspicions that Kreshnik is a sock [76].
• Within his first 24 hours on wikipedia, Kreshnik knows about reliable sourcing [77], knows what WP:OR is [78] [79], knows WP:BRD [80], knows what consensus is [81], knows and interested in DYK [82] (which is something the Alarichus sock was also highly interested in), and is knowledgeable about getting blocked for edit-warring [83]. The above indicate that Kreshnik is almost certainly a returning user, although it is not clear exactly who at this point.
• Kreshnik also knows how to file a flawless 3RR report [84], while carefully gaming 3RR himself without actually breaking it on numerous occasions. This behavior is consistent with that of an experienced user. He later disingenuously claims that he hasn't "learned 100%" how to file a report [85], even though he just did the previous day. This would be consistent with a sockpuppeteer trying to cover his tracks by trying to appear inexperienced.
• Kreshnik is interested in many of the same articles [86] that Sarandioti is [87], such as Souliotes [88] [89] [90] [91] (K:39 edits incl. talkpage) and Gjirokaster (K:6 edits, S:21 edits), and appears to share the same ultranationalist Albanian POV as Sarandioti.
• Kreshnik's first edit to Souliotes [92] (and his third on wikipedia) occurs within a couple of hours after User:I Pakapshem's last edit to that article [93], picking up right where Pakapshem left off. Sarandioti and Pakapshem know each other and collaborate. Both joined wikipedia at approximately the same time (late May/early June).
• Kreshnik performs surprisingly similar edits as Sarandioti, e.g. increasing the importance level for WP:SQ of articles he is interested in. K: [94] [95] S: [96] [97].
• Kreshnik and Sarandioti perform identical edits on Igoumenitsa. K:[98], S:[99]. It thus appears that Kreshnik shares the same interests (some would say obsessions) with Sarandioti and happens to have the same articles watchlisted, all within 1-2 days of opening a new account.
• Kreshnik also shares the same POV with Sarandioti that Greek sources are inherently POV and unreliable. K: [100] [101] [102] [103] [104] [105]. S: [106] [107] [108] [109]. Also note the insistence on no Greek or Albanian sources in greek-albanian articles. K: [110] [111] [112] S: [113] [114].
• Kreshnik shares an particular dislike of one particular source (Ruches) with Sarandioti: K:[115] (his third edit on wikipedia), S:[116] [117].
• Kreshnik likes to taunt and gloat about users who are blocked or restricted [118] [119], much like Sarandioti [120].
• Kreshnik's writing style, tone, and diction are very reminiscent of Sarandioti (short, telegraphic sentences, no post is longer than 4-5 sentences). Examples follow below:

• A succession of short questions, followed by a declaration. K:[121] S: [122] [123].
• "This is a greek nationalist attempt" K:[124] S:[125]
• The particular way HE uses CAPS for EMPHASIS: K: [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131] [132] S:[133] [134] [135] [136] [137] [138] [139].
• Both love to refer to their POV as "facts": K: [140] S: [141] [142].
• Both claim to have no choice but edit-war in the face of "greek nationalism": K:[143] S:[144].
• Both have a tendency to ask admins to revert on their behalf when they have reached the 3R limit: K: [145] [146] S: [147] [148].

• Regarding Lceliku (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), he seems to share the same interest in Morea [149] that the Alarichus sock did [150], particularly regarding the bit about Fallmerayer. Lceliku also seems to know about reliable sourcing from his very first edit [151]. Then, Kreshnik pops up on Lceliku's page, throwing out the welcome mat [152] and dishing out advice [153]. How did he become aware of Lceliku's existence? I myself only found out by looking at Kreshnik's contribs. This really stinks.

Based on the above evidence, I would say this passes WP:DUCK and then some. A checkuser might still be useful nonethless. Users may also want to consult the Alarichus case for reference [154]. Sarandioti/Alarichus used multiple netcafes in Athens to cover his tracks, and had a crazily dynamic IP range as a result. --Athenean (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments by accused parties    See Defending yourself against claims.

Comments by other users

It was more than obvious that Kreshnick was a reincarnation of an experienced user. From his first appearance in Souliotes...just after I_Pakashem's declaration of edit-war [[155]] the pattern was clear. I have predicted that Sarandioti's enthousiasm wouldn't stop with Alarichus account and his reappearance was something expected [[156]].Alexikoua (talk) 07:03, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

CheckUser requests

Checkuser request – code letter: E (Community ban/sanction evasion )

Current status – Completed: Reviewed by a Checkuser, results and comments are below.    Requested by Athenean (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments

I am not yet at the point of being willing to block without checkuser results, but this is clearly a mess. Kreshnik25 did pass up an opportunity to reveal enough about himself to eliminate the sock concerns. Athenean's evidence is striking. Somehow, it's tolerable if people with ethnic interests come in and start arguing a lot when they seem like legit editors who are learning. But when they are socks (and only pretending to be learning) I lose all sympathy. Kreshnik25 is working his way up the ladder towards an WP:ARBMAC warning in my view, though nobody had given him one yet. EdJohnston (talk) 21:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Very compelling. Excellent SPI report, nicely and clearly laid out, so good job on that front. I'd say that's really pretty convincing, actually. Kreshnik is permabanned as a clearly disruptive sock (and probably of the troll identified) although the redlink account there isn't enough evidence for, so I'll wait for CU on that one. The main account will be permabanned as well for block evasion. Moreschi (talk) 21:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

All implemented, main account is now banned. Moreschi (talk) 21:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The editor named in this report sent me an email after he was blocked, which volunteered some new information. I did not find anything in the email to persuade me that our action here was incorrect, but I can forward the email to any admins or checkusers concerned on this case if desired. EdJohnston (talk) 17:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Conclusions

• Highly  Likely that Kreshnik25 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) = Sarandioti (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki). Lceliku (talk · contribs) is  Unrelated. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 04:28, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

 Clerk note: Already blocked and tagged. MuZemike 16:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

This case has been marked as closed. It has been archived automatically.

---

Report date September 13 2009, 04:52 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppets

• Sulmues (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

Evidence submitted by Alexikoua

Though Sulmues expressed a desire to quit wikipedia and prior to his block on December 4th was not particularly active, beginning 1-2 December, he underwent a transformation to an extremely active user that showed interests in articles that he was never previously interested but that Sarandioti very much was. My guess is that the real Sulmues was contacted off-wiki by Sarandioti, who convinced him to give him his password so that he could avoid detetection, since all his previous socks were detected and blocked:

[[157]]

Sarandioti's last confirmed sock account was Muzakaj. While account Sulmues took a wiki break on Dec. 5-28 [[158]]), during this period (Dec. 5-15) Muzakaj was very active.

Additional comfirmed sock account of Sarandioti are listed here: [[159]], while his most active sock accounts were User:AlarichusUser:Muzakaj User:Kreshnik25.

• Both userpages Sarantioti/Sulmues like Nietsche's anarchists quotes :

SA: [[160]] SU: [[161]]

as well as this sock account: AL: [[162]]

Share same interests in the articles: Cerciz Topulli,Bajo Topulli:

SU:[[163]] SA:[[164]][[165]]

• An obsession with Jakup Veseli and inserting him in the notable people section at Margariti.

SU:[[166]][[167]][[168]] SA:[[169]][[170]]

• Sulmues was advocating why a number of Albanian accounts, his sockmaster account included, were banned in the past:

[[171]] [[172]] [[173]]

• He was also obssesed with the -notable peoples- section in Gjirokaster and also questioned the ethnicity of the Greek mentioned in the same section:

SU:[[174]] SA:[[175]]

• Same situation in Korca, also he considered specific Greek personalities as not enough notable:

SU:[[176]] MUZ:[[177]] [[178]]

• Ironic, offending comments against the same users:

SU:[[179]] SA:[[180]][[181]]

• Both accounts considered article Cham Albanian of Top importance in the importance scale making the same scale adjustment:

SU:[[182]] SA: [[183]]

Extremely hostile against what he called the 'Greek team': SA: [[184]] SU: [[185]]

• Instists on fighting and accusing User:Athenean:

SU:[[186]] SA: [[187]][[188]]

• Accusations against User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, making weird conclusions that he is cooperating with Greek users:

SA:[[189]] SU:[[190]][[191]]

• Use of capitals to emphasize specific words:

SU:[[192]], [[193]] KRE: [194] [195] [196] [197] [198] [199] [200] SA:[201] [202] [203] [204] [205] [206] [207].

• Greek is often mentioned with -g- while Albanian always with -A-:

SU:[[208]] [[209]][[210]]

SA: [211] [212] AL: [213].

A new guise

This times, Sarandioti followed a more clever wp:duck strategy, carefully hiding specific points of his personality after studying the two past spi investigations against him [[214]].

• For example he coninued to edit in athletics (like Sulmues' pre-December contribution), however day by day this interest faded and now he isn't interested in athletics any more (at least in his last 1,000 edits).
• On early December he insisted on posting his contribution link on top of his userpage, like saying 'look at me I'm not a sock'[[215]][[216]].
• A Teddy bear took the place of Satan & infant A. Hitler in his userpage.Alexikoua (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Additional evidence

• Tag-teaming together with various ip editors, in his revert war:

SU: [[217]][[218]] SA: [[219]]

• Playing the 'neutral third part' in ongoing discussions creating major disturbances in the discussion process:

SU: [[220]] (advocating in favor of Monshuai trying to turn the discussion into an interethnic balkan battleground) AL: [[221]]] (here pretending the non-Albanian editor that supports the injustice caused by the Greek lobby against User:I_Pakapshem)

• Obsession in reporting other editors for 3rr vio. without being in fact 3rr vio case, in an desperate attempt to find the 'right' admin for his job:

SU:[222] SA: [223] [224]. All the reports endrd up fruitless.Alexikoua (talk) 21:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by accused parties

This is an outrageous accusation, which I of course reject, as I have done with other bad-faith accusations received from the Greek editors: the first one being this (User_talk:Moreschi#Sulmues.3DGuildenrich). It's unbeleivable what kind of accusations these people (Athenean and Alexikoua) are able to file. The fact that I share the same interests with these users (Albanian related) doesn't link me to either Sarandioti or Guildenrich. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 00:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment related to the Athenean's comment below: the only reason why I started to edit a lot from December is that I saw that you had made sure to report every Albanian editor that was working on Wikipedia and was finding the Greek sources very weak. Their edits on Albanian related topics were much better than the Greek ones. However in December there was nobody left. I had to fill in their shoes. I am the only Albanian editor left now (the last of the Mohikans in the English Wikipedia) and I'm sure you won't stop: I'll get reports from you in the future very often. So far I have been reported unjustly at least 8 times from the tandem Alexikoua-Athenean. I'm getting used to it. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 01:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Continued based on Athenean's comment below and Tadija's. I have to tell my story in Wikipedia now: I have no relationship to Sarandioti or any other user. My nickname is Sulmues, has always been, and won't change. I am the same person. My first edit was that of creating Avni Mula's page, a famous Albanian singer and composer from Gjakova. Then I had lots of fun in Wikipedia contributing on soccer pages where everybody respected me. I was never reverted. I made lots of edits to SK Tirana especially. No problems there. Then one day last summer I went to see the Kosovo page and noted that Kosovo was the article of a country that had three infoboxes (not one), the first one being that of a regional infobox (sic), the second one that of its government and the third one that of UNMIK. Its Coat of Arms was not allowed to stay on top. Kosovo basically was not to be presented as a country but only as a disputed region. Abkhazia and South Ossetia did have both COA and Flag on top and one single infobox, that of their respective republic, but Kosovo did not have the right to do that in the English Wikipedia. Now bear in mind that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are recognized by only Russia and Kosovo by 65 country (mostly western powers especially USA, France UK, and Germany), yet the treatment in Wikipedia is preferential for the former: the Kosovo article is land of no one and it seems that this is not the English Wikipedia but the Russian one that we're reading. I was appalled! I saw that Tadija, a Serbian user who is glad to spite me here, made sure to change all the Albanian names of the Albanian settlements in Kosovo even though the national language in Kosovo is Albanian. So I started in the talk pages of Kosovo to change the consensus and I obtained a voting of 10-2 (see [225]), but I was continuously reverted by the Greek and the Serbian editors, even though the voting was clear. I was told that there was a previous consensus, which I never saw. Probably it was behind the scenes and I didn't notice it. I was eventually reported from Cinema C and Athenean and blocked twice and banned from Kosovo topics as "disruptive". Back then I had no clue one could even be blocked or banned in Wikipeda. I was in shock and I behaved badly with the admins. Btw I still am banned from Kosovo topics until the 27 of May and I am respecting the ban but I am mentioning the region to explain that there is no duck case here: I'm not aware that Sarandioti had an interest on Kosovo (or other sockmasters I am accused of).

At that point (beginning of December), I saw very clearly what the rules were. I could do pretty much very good contributions in Albanian sports topics and other, but as far as politics, history, and Albanian language: they were the apanage of the Greek and Serbian editors who were patrolling them. They still do. Take a look at those pages and you'll see a little war between non-registered users who can't change zips because they'll be reverted by the Greek editors as vandalisms. If they are registered, they'll start to hit their heads in the Greek wall and won't achieve much, in addition they'll be reported sooner or later after they'll take the bait of provocations. Furthermore I went to Wikipedia:ARBMAC#Log_of_blocks_and_bans and saw that per ARBCOM so many Albanian editors had been blocked and guess how: by bad faith reports of Greek editors who had provoked them and they had taken the bait in exploding (pretty much like I did). I also went to the Albanian settlement articles like Himare (Albania) and Delvine (Albania) and saw that the Greek name is used because there is a Greek minority there, but it's not possible to use the Albanian name of settlements in Greece Margëlleç, Follorina, Kostur, Konitsa are not mentioned in Albanian even though there are Albanian minorities there. In the meanwhile the Greeks editors will make sure to enter the Greek name of every Albanian city there is, especially the sourthern Albanain ones.

Let's talk about Souliotes. They were Albanians but the Greek editors make sure to assert that they were "arvanites" who were later "hellenized". That nonsense has to stop. The Souliotes are Albanians and the world needs to know. I understand that the Greeks feel like they were given the independence by a bunch of Albanians and they want to hide it, but that's just the truth. Isn't this an Encyclopedia? This is no history book to be told by the winners. Again, if other Albanians such as Sarandioti, know perfectly that they are Albanians they'll state it, but again I ain't Sarandioti. Let's talk about Vangjel Zhapa, with whose money were financed the first modern Olympic games: he was a pure Albanian, lived in Greece but only after he was 33 years old. No: the Greek editors will claim he is only greek.

But that is nothing to what happens to the pages like Illyrians, Albanians, Origin of the Albanians, and Albania. They are completely patrolled by the Greek editors, and there are no Albanian editors left. All the Albanian editors have been reported by the Greek editors and blocked or banned. The Greek editors' theory can be summarized as follows: Illyrians have disappeared. Thracians have disappeared. Albanians? We don't know where they came from: they are mentioned only in the 11th century. Probably moesians? Probably Thracians? Probably this or that? No theory is plausible because they are strange and no one knows who they really are. We just don't know and no one can. Casting a shadow of mystery seems like a very good plan to make today's Albanians seem as if they are foreigners in their own land, not autochtonous, which in the Balkans would be only the Greek population. No other population in the Balkans can enjoy the autochtonous status but the Greeks, according to these editors The Greek editors by working in tandem will make every edit possible to "forget" their own sources (read Ptolemy, Polibus and Stephanus of Bysantium - all Greeks), that the Albanoi Illyrian tribe has been mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century BC as Arbon, in the 2nd century AD by Polibus as Albanoi, and in the 6th century as Albonios by Stephanus of Bysantium as, see Origin_of_the_Albanians. That is proof of the continuity of the Illyrian-Albanian population and the world's historiography has already accepted it. It's the way it's studied in Albania, Russia, Germany, France, USA. In Greece there are other orders, I am affraid. I am here to work on that and change many articles that use double standard.

Furthermore, in the article albanian language, Athenean is eager to show that Illyrian has nothing to do with Albanian and makes three edits to blank 72 references ([[226], [227], and [228]) that span from 3 centuries worth of work by first class scholars that start with the polymath Gottfried Leibnitz. The Greek's aim is to make this academic proved theory "just one of the theories" and not the most plausible one.

I'll address now the accusations of Alexikoua one by one:

1. In december I was blocked by Moreschi for disruption at Kosovo, I couldn't have written on Wikipedia. That was no wikibreak, but block. I have no idea what Muzakaj/Sarandioti was doing.
2. Nietzche's quotes are very famous amongst many other contributors, and I really don't remember who I borrowed those sayings, but that's really ridiculous. (by that same token I could accuse you and Athenean to be obsessed with Himare and be the socks of one another.
   
3. Cerciz Topulli and Bajo Topulli: they are extremely popular heroes in Albania there are movies on them. Normal that Sarandioti and I may be fond of them. Are you upset because they killed the Greek Archbishop?
4. Jakup Veseli: Athenean made sure to bring it to AfD, shouldn't I defend an Albania's founding father? Besides it was very sneaky from you Greek editors to make sure to bring to AfD the Albanian founding fathers coming from Chameria
5. Advocating why a number of Albanian accounts were banned in the past: I'll continue to do it because as this report is in bad faith, I suspect that you have done others to people who weren't the socks of one another. And I have already been accused of being the sock of Guildenrich, so I know what you are capable of.
6. In regards to Alexandros Vasileiou and my related edit ([229]): I left the pooor Vasileiou there, just alphabetized the notable people: Why would you have the right to patrol the Albanian page of Gjirokaster, and I wouldn't???
7. In Korce: This edit ([230]) was to get out your Greek POV that this person is notable when there is no article on him. First do an article then put it as notable. Even in the talk page other people have stated that this person is not notable at all.
8. Regarding the irony that I use: Can't I state that there is Wikiaddiction? Or should I bring the examples of your own irony? These are the trolling comments or insults from Alexikoua in one single talk page (@Vangjel Zhapa]] see [231], [232], [233], [234], [235], [236]
9. Hm, I see that Sarandioti has called you "Greek team". I have said that you work in tandem and that has been noticed by lots of other editors, not only Sarandioti and I.
10. Accusations against FPS: That admin is from Germany but has a good knowledge of Greek per his user page, I presume a Greek parented emigrant in Germany. Sarandioti has noticed too? We must be both right.
11. Use of capitals to emphasize specific words? That is very common (it would be the equivalent of SHOUTING), but yes I do it when I want to emphasize something. Nothing to do with this Kreshniku that you are mentioning now.
12. Greek is often mentioned with -g- while Albanian always with -A-: Hm, I apologize for doing that. I admit, I have done it in the past, but I don't do that any more, because I understand that the Greek users might get offended. Again, I did that to belittle the Greeks, and I got blocks for it, if Sarandioti has done that as well, probably he has gotten blocks like I did. I am more respectful now.

Comment on the "new guise" accusation": This accusation is completely unfounded but I'll have to address it anyways. Your fantasy is unbeleivable.

1. I'm not interested in athletics anymore: I wish I could have the time, with all the reports that I get from the Greek editors, like this one. Hoever it's not even true that I haven't made edits in sports pages as you can enjoy them done just 9 days ago on 9 FEBRUARY 2010 ([237]) at the Albania_national_football_team where I have been a long time contributor, actually my first edit there was on 11 SEPTEMBER 2008!!! ([238])
2. Putting links on my contributions like saying Look, I'm not a sock? Hahaha, this will remain in the history of Wikipedia: Since when putting your contributions' link means "look I'm not a sock"? Once that I started having more than 1000 edits, I felt proud of having to show the appropriate contributor banners, and you have to substantiate that, that's why I put the link to my list of contributions.
3. Taking the teddy bear instead of the Hitler looking stuff? I have always hated nazism, as a matter of fact I am interested in Albanian trotskyist communists see my last edits yesterday in Llazar Fundo (before you filed this report) (see [239]).

This is the n'th bad faith report that I have gotten from the Greek editors. I am by myself and they work in tandem. I am no Sarandioti or anybody else, but Sulmues, a very honest intellectual that works and contributes for free in Wikipedia. It's incredible that I be accused that I am Sarandioti and Sulmues contacted me and gave me passwords, this is pure fantasy or bad-faithed reporting. My outburst to Moreschi in early December 2009 to leave wikipedia was because of the frustration that I had to be banned unjustly from Kosovo topics. With a cooler head I realized that that was exactly what the Greek editors (Alexikoua and Athenean) were wishing and I deemed that it would be best to stay in Wikipedia and help find better sources rather than quitting. I ain't no quitter, Athenean and Alexikoua know it, so they file these socketpuppetry reports because they have to try it all. I demand that once that this investigation finishes I receive excuses from all the users that are accusing me, especially Athenean, Alexikoua and Tadija. I still have not received excuses from Athenean when he falsely accused me to be Guildenrich. Now Alexikoua is doing the same and I will demand his excuses as well, as this is no circus. Sometimes I have the feeling that I can really collaborate with these people, like in the Protocol of Corfu, but sometimes I feel that they really don't want me around. I don't think we can have a good relationship unless they respect me. I demand respect because I have been an excellent contributor in many articles by almost 4k edits. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 14:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

In response to the comment by Ptolion: I hope that's the case because I am not trying to hide anything, on the contrary I am telling all my story in Wikipedia here. But the accusations are pretty heavy. Athenean and Alexikoua are saying that Sarandioti would have contacted me off wiki and I would have given him my password. This is absurd. And how would the Checkuser find out who is writing??? I'm not familiar with the tool, anyways, but if Alexikoua and Athenean have the time to write these thesis to kick me out, I'll have to expose what they are doing. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 18:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by other users

Excellent report. There is definitely something strange going on here. First, I note that Sulmues' edits prior to Dec 1 2009 were almost exclusively related to soccer [240] (his first 500 edits or so). In his early days, he also never once showed the slightest interest to anything related to Greece or Greece-Albania articles. Nor did he show the slightest interest in fixing up his userpage. Starting Dec 1, something happens: Sulmues goes into overdrive, starts fixing up his userpage and becomes very interested in articles that Sarandioti & socks were interested in, e.g. Kitsos Tzavelas, Souliotes (a particular favorite of Sarandioti and his sock Keshnik25), while his interest in soccer articles is present but slowly fading. If we look at his 500 most recent edits [241], his interest in soccer has evaporated, and he has instead become obsessed with things Sarandioti was, namely adding Jakup Veseli to the list of notable people in Margariti [242], which was one of Sarandioti's very first edits and one of his favorite obsessions [243]. This is a fairly obscure individual and a fairly obscure small town in northwestern Greece that very few people would know about, so this is even more strange. Also very telling is his changing of importance to Cham Albanians to WP:SQ, another Sarandioti (and Kreshnik) favorite. The shared obsession with the "Notable Individuals" section of Korce and Gjirokaster is also very odd. As if that weren't enough, the references to Nietzsche on the userpages of both User:Sulmues and User:Alarichus (a sock of Sarandioti) quacks VERY loudly.

Sulmues has also been extremely active since his return from his December 28 block, performing over 3000 edits in less than two months, while prior to December he had performed only 500 edits in a year and a half. Strange behavior indeed for someone who explicitly and repeatedly stated that he "wanted out" of Wikipedia: [244] [245].

Here's what I think may have happened: Following his outburst, the real Sulmues decided to quit wikipedia. Sometime before December 28, he was contacted off-wiki by Sarandioti and persuaded to hand over his password. Since the real Sulmues had decided to quit wikipedia, he presumably didn't care. Then on December 28, Sarandioti in the guise of Sulmues bursts on the scene. At first he is careful to edit soccer articles and not focus too much on the articles that Sarandioti was interested in, but gradually and carefully, he reverted to form, with the result that the current Sulmues edits articles that Sarandioti was interested in and has largely forgotten Sulmues' old interests. The transition was done smoothly and gradually over a period of two months so as to not raise suspicion. Sarandioti has tried various sockpuppetry methods in the past, but always got caught. Presumably, he has learned from his mistakes and past SPIs and has become really good at covering his tracks. Athenean (talk) 00:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I must say something. As i was deeply involved in blocking two of Sarandioti's socks, Kreshnik and Muzakaj, i had that "honor" of knowing Sarandioti's way of editing quite well. This is such a DUCK, that i cannot say almost anything else. Souliotes, marvelously spotted Nietsche's quotes, notable peoples section, i also had problems with Kreshnik with Gjirokastër, which was vandalized also by him. ([246]). Putting obvious sockpuppet a side, all Sulmues edits are quite often so POV, (as Sarandioti's), that editing articles that are under ARBMAC restriction (entire Balkan) can be highly disputed and unwanted in this way. Athenean's version from above sounds a bit odd, but from this user, i will expect absolutely anything. Sarandioti = Sulmues. --Tadija (talk) 12:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Sulmues, if you're not Sarandioti, then the checkuser will show that. You don't have to write such a long thesis trying to get the request thrown out, it looks as though you're trying to hide something.--Ptolion (talk) 17:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Two notes: could a clerk please restore the customary link to the Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sarandioti/Archive in the header? Second: if I remember correctly from the Alarichus report, Alarichus claimed to be highly mobile and edit from a wide variety of locations. Thus, if he changed places recently, the CU findings might be less informative than the behavioural evidence, which I find strong. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
  •  Clerk note:  Done Spitfire^Tally-ho! 19:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments

Checkuser request – code letter: E (Community ban/sanction evasion )

Current status – Completed: Reviewed by a Checkuser, results and comments are below.    Requested by Alexikoua (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that this case passes WP:DUCK, a checkuser would be useful in proving this beyond any doubt.Alexikoua (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

 Clerk endorsed. PeterSymonds (talk) 23:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

• These accounts are actually  Unlikely to be socks of each other - Alison ^❤ 11:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This case has been marked as closed. It has been archived automatically.

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