Talk:Gilad Atzmon

NPOV tag

By ignoring the controversy over Gilad Atzmon's antisemitism--the single most notable thing about this person--the lead paragraph violates WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD. The politics section (which is already tagged) is slanted to include non-notable defenses of Atzmon from non-RS and includes a ridiculous amount of synthesis to defend the indefensible. The music section is full of WP:PUFF, effectively burying the most notable facts about Atzmon. As even the sympathetic Guardian article acknowledges, Atzmon is famous because of his activism rather than his music, yet the politics section is buried at the bottom of the article and largely absent from the lead. THF (talk) 19:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Among the problems:

• No mention of Atzmon calling himself a self-hating Jew.
• No mention of Atzmon's support of the antisemitic forgery Protocols of the Elders of Zion
• No mention of Atzmon calling Israel worse than Hitler
• No mention of Atzmon claiming that the reason the accusations against him are false is that there is no such thing as an antisemite.
• No mention that Atzmon is criticized for antisemitism in jazz magazines by fellow jazz musicians.[1]
• No mention that Atzmon is criticized for antisemitism and Holocaust denial by fellow anti-Zionists.
• Indeed, no mention of the Holocaust denial controversy at all.

All of these are thoroughly documented in sources far more reliable and notable than those included in the article (which largely relies on the left-wing and antisemitic blog Counterpunch), yet have been sanitized from inclusion.

Since that version of the article, Atzmon has reaffirmed his antisemitism, saying in a 2009 op-ed that "the Jewish lobby is far more worrying than a criminal gang." Needless to say, this quote is also absent from the discussion of Atzmon's antisemitism. THF (talk) 19:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Header tags

I understand the changes which Carolmooredc made to this talk page. However I don't understand the reinsertion of the tag which I had removed from being the article's header. The tag in question is the blp-dispute tag which states that the article "may violate WP policy as it contains unsourced or poorly sourced controversial claims". This by itself seems strong for the article which cites 51 different sources, and which already has two "Neutrality disputed" tags. Carolmooredc's edit summary stated that the reason for reverting my edit was that the article is "frequently vandalized" and that it needs a "strong" header. I think it already had a strong header, considering that the article hasn't been vandalized since I removed the tag. Besides, I think the article would be better served if the unsourced or poorly sourced parts were discussed, rather than to give the article a blanket dismissal. Thoughts?--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 17:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

If you read back through archives you'll see a list of the reasons (most still valid) I still think the article has BLP problems. However, wikipedians seem unable to deal with this article and its issues in a knowledgeable and fair fashion (as my talk-page documented attempts to try to deal with them show), so I'm temporarily taking a break on content to see if any one will come along to deal with my complaints sensibly. Feel free to do so - though it does involve a lot of nit picking on policy issues, where I obviously believe I am mostly right, but most people don't want to spend the time to research/think about it when its in such a controversial area. CarolMooreDC (talk) 18:53, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

What you identify are not BLP problems, but NPOV allegations, and the article already contains two NPOV dispute tags. The tag you placed is for unsourced material, and you've identified none now that I've removed the only unsourced material left in the article. THF (talk) 05:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious what you found lacking with the Counterpunch reference, THF?--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 05:56, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

WEIGHT problems: Oren Ben-Dor, a fellow Jewish anti-Semitic crank, isn't notable, yet his POV is being pushed while mainstream POVs are ignored. Counterpunch is not a neutral RS, and is only reliable for Counterpunch's far-left POV, and should be characterized as such on the rare occasions when it's cited. THF (talk) 06:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I understand now. Nice catch.--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 16:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Continued WP:SYNTH of Atzmon primary source quotes

I know from trying to get help on this issue of DRSMOO's synthesis of Atzmon primary source quotes that nobody on wikipedia is willing to do anything about it. So I'm not going to do anything more except demand that the two tags I just put on stay there until a truly NPOV editor looks at it. The Holocaust tag is self explanatory. The tag on the preceding paragraph is explained repeatedly in Talk:Gilad_Atzmon/Archive_4#Problems_with_DrSmoo.27s_edits, not to mention Talk:Gilad_Atzmon/Archive_4#Cherry_picked.2C_out_of_context_primary_source_quotes_POV, Talk:Gilad_Atzmon/Archive_4#Sources_NOT_WP:RS_or_Out_of_Context.2C_violating_WP:BLP, Talk:Gilad_Atzmon/Archive_4#More_NPOV.2C_non-WP:OR_version_of_politics_section. Should I even bother to bring this to WP:BLPN, since most people are terrified of being called antisemites (including in the past on this talk page) if they try to honestly deal with this issue?? 14:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

The moderators and admins did do something about it, they threatened to ban you for abusing multiple pages and wikipedia services. This has been gone over multiple times, and has been agreed upon many times as well.

I'm also reminding you to edit in good faith, rather than accusing everyone of being dishonest. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

"Holocaust denial"

I deleted the section in question. First, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia article about Gilad Atzmon, not a collection of every silly or stupid thing he ever wrote. Second, it was clear from reading the section that Drsmoo is able to grasp subtleties with all the nuance of a Mack truck. Finally, if secondary sources start writing about Atzmon as a Holocaust denier, it might be appropriate for the article to mention it. We're here to report what reliable sources say, not conduct our own research. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:03, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

There are lots of secondary sources that talk about Atzmon's Holocaust denial. They've been sanitized from the article. Meanwhile, all the original research contorting Atzmon's anti-Semitism into something else remains in the article. Funny how those NOR rules are applied. THF (talk) 03:43, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

On the subject of Holocaust denial, bring some of those secondary sources and let's talk about how to include it in the article. A long paragraph of quotes pulled from a recent essay, as Drsmoo did, is not the right approach.

With respect to allegations of Atzmon's antisemitism, what do you think is the problem? Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I detailed the problem at Talk:Gilad_Atzmon#NPOV_tag. THF (talk) 08:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Malik, I do not appreciate personal attacks. There is nothing obscure or complicated about Atzmon's Holocaust denial. The only complexities are the mental gymnastics some will go through to twist every cruel word Atzmon makes into something they claim as benign.

Atzmon has been referred to as a Holocaust denier many times:

http://www.labournet.net/antiracism/0506/..%5C..%5Cevents%5C0506%5Cbookmarks1.html — Drsmoo , — (continues after insertion below.)

As the author of the text cited here, I urge you to (re)read it. At no time did I describe Atzmon himself as a "holocaust denier"; I wrote that he was "defending holocaust deniers". RolandR (talk) 08:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

If that is the case, in the future, I would recommend not titling articles about wanting to block Atzmon speeches as "No to Holocaust Denial" and then filling them with statements regarding Atzmon's relationship to Holocaust denial.

Needless to say at this point, Atzmon's relationship to Holocaust denial unfortunately goes far beyond supporting Paul Eisen. Drsmoo (talk) 12:37, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article538076.ece

http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3764482

A German article from 2005 is unfortunately no longer online, though it was featured in this article recently. The link was here http://www.westline.de/nachrichten/archiv/index_mono.php?file_name=20051128231021_630_001_2315688&jahrgang=2005&stichwort=atzmon&&start=0&order=datum&ort=bo an english translation of the article http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/03/19/atzmon-in-germany/

Quotes from Atzmon's German tirade reported by Iranian Press TV http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=38848&sectionid=351020604 (it relates to when Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel's lawyer read a newspaper report of Atzmon's speech, for which she was banned from practicing in court for five years) Drsmoo (talk) 06:11, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

In his article in the Timesonline Blog titled "An antisemite's progress" Oliver Kamm criticizes Atzmon's Holocaust denial http://timesonline.typepad.com/oliver_kamm/2010/03/an-antisemites-progress.html Drsmoo (talk) 07:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Separating Atzmon's views on Jewish Culture, "Jewishness" and the Holocaust from his political views

I know that it would have been more convenient for me to bring this up earlier while we were in the midst of revising this article. But it really doesn't make sense to have Atzmon's views on "Jewishness" and his statements about Jews in a section titled "Politics." There should be another section for his notable views on "Jewishness" the Holocaust etc, as they are not political in nature. Drsmoo (talk) 01:25, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia WP:BLP is Broken on this article

Atzmon's views you have been allowed to misquote for more than a years are always in the context of alleged Israeli bigoted or criminal actions. I know no one will fix this horrible POV distortion of a WP:BLP because I tried and no one would deal with it. But just want to register a complaint that a DRSMOO - whose edits have focused predominantly on Atzmon, and who has declared repeatedly his personal opinions about Atzmon - is again getting away with violations of WP:BLP. I know it will just lead to an edit war that I will be blamed for if I try to fix it. Wikipedia WP:BLP is broken when it comes to this article.

CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Umm, why do you keep putting my username in all caps? Not that I'm not flattered or grateful, I just don't understand. Btw, per your edit summary, can you explain to everyone how Atzmon's statement that there was no Nazi genocide of Jews is really/subtly (or something) about Israel? Here's the article http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/truth-history-and-integrity-by-gilad-atzmon.html ThanksDrsmoo (talk) 07:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, ProfSmoo.

It is not up to wikipedia editors to interpret what people say, but reliable sources. And you have consistently twisted what those sources say so they agree with your strong POV against Atzmon, the main article you edit on Wikipedia.

But wikipedia is too broken to do anything about it. Unless it's like the lottery and if I complain to the right forum on the right day and the right admin(s) see and recognize the perniciousness of your editing history, they will ban you permanently from this article. As I've said, I refuse to edit war with your any more on this article. CarolMooreDC (talk) 23:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)