Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jan Goossenaerts

See also, #Summarization of comments without nonsense

Jan Goossenaerts

Jan Goossenaerts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics

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He's not notable because he's the oldest person in the country. Fails WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 16:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete couldn't find anything of use in google news. Secret ^account 16:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. -- Jujutacular ^talk 17:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep hes a supercentenarian, and hes been the oldest man in the country for years, and if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country. Longevitydude (talk) 18:12, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Being the oldest verified man in a continent is notable, and I know some people who have access to other articles about him.Longevitydude (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Why is it notable to be 100? Why not 97? Why not 103? Even the Lists of centenarians says you need to be notable for something other than being old to be included. This guy is old. So? The youngest person in Europe was born 0.0004 seconds ago. SO?? — Timneu22 · talk 18:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Hes a SUPERcentenarian, hes at least 110, that was a list of centenarians, not 110+ year olds, and being the oldest man in a continent is notable. The article is because hes the oldest man in Europe, not just because of his age. Longevitydude (talk) 19:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Did it say, other than being oldEST, this guy is the continent's oldEST verified man. Longevitydude (talk) 19:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
          • So, simply being alive is notable? Certainly that doesn't fit under WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 19:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
            • He's notable for reaching age 110, alive or not.Ryoung122 23:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
              • According to a recent physical, I'm alive. But I'm definitely not notable. So that can't be it. David in DC (talk) 19:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
                • You're not 110, either.Ryoung122 23:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
                  • Where is the magic number for notable ages listed? Why not 82? 32? 4? 71? — Timneu22 · talk 18:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. The logic for inclusion is faulty. Someday--perhaps very soon--this man will die. He will then no longer be the oldest person within a given geographical area. What will be the justification for the article THEN? The even less notable "He USED to be the oldest person within a given geographical area"? Or "Here lie the bones of a guy who was briefly non-notable for being the oldest person in a geographical area"? He is not sufficiently notable now, and the moment he dies he becomes completely non-notable. Let's not wait till then. Let's delete it now, because we're only going to have to delete it later. True notability is not something that expires with death. Qworty (talk) 19:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Notability is not temporary, he will still be notable because he HAD the title, and when you live that long then you can have the nerve to say simply being alive, and yes, its easier to be a professional athlete than a supercentenarian, there are more athletes than male supercentenarians. Longevitydude (talk) 19:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Back that up with numbers. What percentage of people are professional athletes? What percent are supercentenarians? The differences, according to our guidelines, is that these athletes get constant significant coverage, where as an old person gets none. I don't care about this person, who is insignificant on just about all accounts. 100 years from now LeBron James will still have some sorts of records that are compared. This guy will not be important at all, just like now. — Timneu22 · talk 19:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
      
      • http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.lanouvellegazette.be/actualite/societe/2009-10-31/doyen-belges-109-descend-encore-escaliers-737237.shtml&ei=9brRTJ2vKIO78gaC8MTPDA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CEMQ7gEwCQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJan%2BGoossenaerts%2B110%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26rlz%3D1R2ADSA_enUS394%26prmd%3Dfd

There were articles about him before he became a supercentenarian, so don't talk about one event hes had coverage for his birthdays way before 110, and the other event is becoming the oldest man in the continent. Longevitydude (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

How is Being the oldest any less notable then being the tallest, shortest, or heaviest? their all in guinness world records Longevitydude (talk) 19:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Guinness is a reliable source. But it is not a guarantor of notability. Guinness has its standards for notability. We have ours. They are not coterminous. The tallest, shortest or heaviest person ever might be notable for our purposes. The current tallest, shortest or heaviest person in Europe? Not so much. David in DC (talk) 20:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

If notability is lost when people die, then Michael Jackson isn't notable either.Ryoung122 23:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete I believe there's no policy or guideline that decrees that being the oldest man in (or perhaps on) a continent is, per se, notable. I've occasionally believed six impossible things before breakfast, so I could be wrong. If I am, please show me where to look. (Interesting, but probably not dispositive, is the fact that one of the "impossible things" in the White Queen's oration to Alice is a claim to be a centenarian.)
  

We edit articles one at a time hereabouts, so I'm not sure that "...if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country" is particularly relevant. One need not delete speedily if an article about a living person doesn't include unsourced derogatory information, and I don't think anyone's contending that a longevity claim is derogatory, so we've got an eternity to deal with these other pages.

I'm inclined to agree that the quoted language from the centenarian list ought to apply to super-centenarians (and even super-duper-centenarians), as well. But we need not reach that far to resolve this case. All we need do is determine if being the oldest man in Europe, absent any other special, reliable, verifiable characteristics or achievements, is sufficiently notable to warrant an article on en.wikipedia. Per nom, I think not. David in DC (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

• Commment: Nomination simply says "He's not notable because he's the oldest person in the country." Europe is not a country. Second, I know we've had lots of AfDs on supercentenarians before, as we have tons of articles on them, so the nomination by itself doesn't tell me why we should delete this one over any other one. E.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martha Graham (supercentenarian). If not kept, the content needs to be merged into an article such as List of American supercentenarians, as was done in the case of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas Nelson (supercentenarian). In this case it would be List of European supercentenarians--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 21:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
  • (Comments redacted; user warned for BLP incivility. Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 10:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)) The intro said "Belgian Supercentenerian", so that's what the nomination was talking about. I stand by the GNG failure, and I think that there should be a policy or at least some results about old people. If anything, these should be non-linked people on some list page. It's doubtful that these people are actually notable for doing something other than breathing. — Timneu22 · talk 22:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment/Keep You can't even spell "supercentenarian". I think the article should stick, he is the oldest living male in Europe; if all else fails we should at least merge his article into List of Belgian supercentenarians, but I'd rather avoid that. Brendan (talk, contribs) 01:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • It's a fucking typo. Get over yourself. The answer here is probably to put this person on one of these list pages, but not as a redirect. — Timneu22 · talk 11:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Redirect to List of Belgian supercentenarians. He's gotten written up in newspapers,[1][2][3][4] but all they really say is, other than him being the oldest European man, that he's fairly healthy, and has some children and grandchildren. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment. I think this article and any others like it, including the links provided from other AfDs above, should be deleted without a redirect, and the name of the person (and any one- or two-sentence blurb about them) should be on the list page. I think we need a policy for this type of person, who is clearly not otherwise notable. Let the person be searched for in some results, but no reason to keep a redirect to the page. — Timneu22 · talk 11:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Lets not call other people ugly names, and lets not cuss, that just makes your side look weak, attack the arguements, not the person.Longevitydude (talk) 13:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Please show me where I attacked a user. — Timneu22 · talk 14:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • well since you said please: you said It's a fucking typo. Get over yourself. (Comments redacted. Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 10:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)), and shes not even part of the discussion.Longevitydude (talk) 14:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Please show me where I attacked a user. I didn't. I commented on a fucking typo. The Sarah Palin link was a joke (since she thinks Africa is a country). Dude, lighten up. — Timneu22 · talk 14:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
        • I need to lighten up, sir im not the one cussing up a storm, and if I remember correctly, obama thinks theres 57 states. Longevitydude (talk) 14:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
          • My comment was related, since I was being accused of calling Europe a country. Your comment about Obama is simply to do what? Anyhow, let's get back on topic. Old people belong on lists, not with individual articles. They aren't notable. — Timneu22 · talk 14:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
            • (Comments redacted. Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 10:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC))
              • Thanks, dude. — Timneu22 · talk 14:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
                • your welcome, my obama comment was to show that hes no smarter than you make palin out to be Longevitydude (talk) 15:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
                  • I don't think this sub-discussion could get any more off topic. I agree that it does make sense to have some guidelines formulated to deal with these AfDs, just like we have tried to do with bilateral relations articles (without success), public school articles (keep all verified high schools, generally redirect middle/elementary schools to district articles), etc. The fact is, when an article is only one sentence, it makes more sense as a matter of organization to include that information in a larger article and create a redirect. Someone who happens to read about this guy may also be interested in other Belgian/European supercentenarians. The number of readers searching only for this person will not be many.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 16:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
                    • Sure it could. How 'bout them Giants? David in DC (talk) 21:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete because he just recently became a supercentenarian. He isn't like Frederica Sagor Maas, who, now validated, has been recognized by other sources rather than just her nearby/local newspaper. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 15:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Hes known for something other than being a male supercentenarian, hes the oldest verified man in the continent, how is that not notable.Longevitydude (talk) 15:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • We understand your position. You don't need to reply to everyone's "delete" vote. — Timneu22 · talk 17:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
      • What rule did I break this time? Longevitydude (talk) 18:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. I just listed an article that has more information on him. Longevitydude (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep because male supercentenarians are already very rare Petervermaelen 18:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep: The nom's very much in error. The text of the GNG is "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Supercentenarians provoke a LOT of articles and news stories about them. Want to bet I can't find at least several articles in reliable sources about him? He's only the fifth living male supercentenarian in the world. Heck, he only has to make it a few more months to crack the top 100 of the oldest verified men in recorded history. That's not notable?  RGTraynor  18:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: RGTraynor has a good point about WP:GNG, in his second sentence above. However, I think it's answered in the last bullet of that policy: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not.David in DC (talk) 20:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment:
  • http://www.rtlinfo.be/info/belgique/societe/748989/essen-celebre-l-homme-le-plus-age-d-europe
    • I don't read french. Does this say anything besides the fact that he's currently the oldest man in Europe? As I've said above, I don't believe there's any guidline or policy that says being the current oldest man on a continent confers per se notability. I asked for guidance to find such a guideline or policy. None has been mentioned yet. David in DC (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • just get an account on http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/ and youll find more information on him, and a lot more articles, try it. Longevitydude (talk) 19:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • A yahoo group? Why should it matter what it says there? There are lots of yahoogroups. They can be centered on a nearly infinite number of topics that are notable to the self-selected members of that group. And if the members of a such a yahoo group, no matter how eminent they may be in their own minds or the minds of others, can successfully band together to teach the world about their particular interest niche, and accrete whatever it is they find notable into wikipedia, regardless of WP:GNG, we have a much bigger problem than this one article. That bigger problem should be addressed elsewhere. But in the meantime, let's stick with reliable sources and refrain from recruiting people to join a yahoo group and become enlightened. David in DC (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • heres some videos
    • http://video.rtlinfo.be/video/230239.aspx?
    • http://www.nieuwsblad.be/video/videoplayer.aspx?videoid=10217727
  • yes he has gotten coverage for years.Longevitydude (talk) 19:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Again, I don't understand the language. Do these say anything more than that this subject is the current oldest man in Europe and that he's got a couple generations of progeny? Without more, my editorial judgment is that this does not meet WP:GNGDavid in DC (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • would http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_World%27s_Oldest_People this website count as good guidelines?Longevitydude (talk) 19:23, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Heck, no. "[T]his website" is a yahoo group that's morphed itself into a wiki-project, complete with talk page discussions about who the project's leader is and how its purpose is to advance knowledge about old people, (rather than, for instance, to build an encyclopedia). "[T]his website" is a symptom of the bigger problem I mentioned above. Discussions about it belong elsewhere, and, are indeed taking place elsewhere. Let's just stick with the root question raised by this AfD - Is being the current oldest man in Europe, without more, enough to establish notability on en.wikipedia. Not in Guinness. Not in the view of a yahoo group. Not in the view of a band of wikipedia editors who've founded a wiki-project to advance education about their own particularistic niche topic. But, rather, under the clear language of WP:GNG. Editors may differ, in good faith, about the answer to this question. It's a matter of editorial judgment about how WP:GNG applies to this specific subject.David in DC (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Please keep the false attacks to a minimum. The WOP group on Yahoo didn't "morph" into anything. Someone on Wikipedia created the WP:WOP, but the WOP group on Yahoo still exists. One can be a member of the Wiki group without being a member of the Yahoo group, or vice versa.
    • Also, the WOP group on Yahoo was founded in 2002, but we have media coverage of supercentenarians going back decades and even centuries and even millennia. St. Paul of Thebes allegedly lived to 113. Oh, and he's in an encyclopedia, which noted his claimed age.Ryoung122 00:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
      • I assure you thats where the best information will come from, and how dare anyone remove a source I posted that had information about Jan, Idontlikeit is not a reason to delete an article.Longevitydude (talk) 13:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
        • I posted the translated version of an article and someone removed it.So don't complain that you can't speak French.Longevitydude (talk) 13:58, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
          • Please review these edits, and their accompanying edit summaries. [5], [6], [7]. David in DC (talk) 15:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
            • I posted the translated version of the article so those who can't speak French could read it, I did everything I could to cite the sources, but IT STILL HAD A PROBLEM EVERYTIME! And some of those edits werent mine.Longevitydude (talk) 15:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
            • Even when I felt the same way about certain articles that you did you still had problems with my arguements.Longevitydude (talk) 14:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep/Merge The article has the potential to meet Wikipedia standards if reliable sources are used - they do exist. As it stands, the article is very poor. I think nominating the article for deletion a mere 20 minutes after its creation has not helped the matter. If the article isn't improved, then I would have to say redirect to List of Belgian supercentenarians until the article meets Wikipedia standards. SiameseTurtle (talk) 14:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • The problem is the article was never given a chance to be improved, if supercentenarians are not notable, they why do so many people think so, who is anyone to tell us what we should consider notable, all we do is ask others to respect our views on what we consider notable, we don't make afds on what you consider notable, so please don't do it to us. Longevitydude (talk) 14:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • OK, im calm now, but seriously, five refs, I know there have been more in the past that just cant be found, but still, thats a reasonable amount, but learn to have respect for other peoples opinions of notability, you dont see the GRG making afds for stuff that you think is notable that they dont care about, is a little consideration too much to ask? Longevitydude (talk) 15:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep/Merge per SimaeseTurtle. It looks like the general notability guideline is met, unless someone can explain how WP:BASIC indicates it does not meet notability. --Bsherr (talk) 16:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • WP:GNG creates a presumption. The final bullet in WP:GNG makes the presumption rebuttable. It gives exactly the reason for rebuting the presumption that this article presents. Please see this earlier comment and review the interplay the last bullet of WP:GNG describes between the presumption and WP:NOT. David in DC (talk) 18:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
    • It has reliable sources, and sufficient coverage. Longevitydude (talk) 18:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Strong delete or redirect if there ever was one. The assumption of WP:WOP is that having turned 110 and held a regional title, which is conferred basically by Yahoo WOP, which contains a vast membership overlap with WP:WOP, makes one notable. No, it makes one notable for line-item inclusion in lists. Goossenaerts is already in five WP lists, with which a "bio" article (what bio?) would be wholly redundant (there is nothing to merge!). My basic view is that a supercentenarian becomes article-notable (not at age 110 but) when there is enough interest in something other about her or him than just being 110 (otherwise, via WP:BLP1E, they should be redirected to a base list, i.e., list of living supercentenarians). There are many more problems that do not have time or place for discussion now, but some of them appear at WP:FTN#Longevity-cruft, WP:COIN#User:Ryoung122 on Longevity myths, and Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-01-04/Longevity myths. — John J. Bulten — continues after insertion below

The problem is YOU. You have been campaigning against articles on supercentenarians, using smear tactics (you say I don't understand statistics, but you are the one that believes in 950-year-olds), recruiting Grismaldo and Itsmejudith time and again.

How about some FACTS:

1. The WOP does NOT give out titles such as "oldest in Europe." However, that can be referenced to NEWS sources (whether true or not...Wikipedia standards are verifiability, not truth).

2. Notability isn't established by your opinion, it's established by outside sources.

3. "Longevity cruft" is a POV-pejorative. Scientists study longevity, including supercentenarians, and the media covers them.

4. I actually agreed with five of the seven articles you listed for deletion. The List of Oldest Living Men should have been kept (4-3 in favor of keep), as well as "Oldest veterans." That you are pushing to delete generalized lists shows your problems with this run deeper than just whether this man is individually notable or not.Ryoung122 00:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(JJB continues comments hidden by Ryoung122's WP:TALK violation:) While this is not the typical situation of WP:SPAs voting, WP:WOP has been documented as suffering from views contrary to WP basics in very similar (but much more entrenched) ways. Longevitydude and SiameseTurtle are WP:WOP members and Brendanology and Petervermaelen meet the basic criteria of WOP SPAs. I will now notify the two FTN editors and the WP:WOP talk page. JJB 20:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Siamese Turtle is a lot brilliant than you, JJ. It is actually YOUR views, not our views, that are contrary to science. Since you have ZERO chance of succeeding with your religious arguments in the scientific field, you have chosen to bully teens (like LongevityDude, Brendanology, and Nick Ornstein) and push your POV bias on Wikipedia, where "anyone can edit"...including complete idiots.Ryoung122 00:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(JJB picks up again:) My additional factors: "Oldest verified" excludes a large number of unverified European supercentenarian longevity claims as if GWR verification is the only POV necessary, when in fact many parts of the world simply do not have a way of documenting most of their people to GWR standards. Similarly, the solicitation that we join Yahoo WOP in order to verify hidden webcruft is plainly anti-WP; WP:V requires that any citations to Yahoo WOP can be tagged to "request quotation", and there are a junkyardful of such citations in the topic articles. Further, one reason these newspapers are so convenient so quickly, yet without translation, is that WP:WOP and GRG are very often primary sources for such articles and know of their placement ahead of time: note "according to gerontologists" in first article and the very name GRG in the next three, each of which refer to "80 supercentenarians" (verified, living); compare list of living supercentenarians, what a coincidence that WP editors and "gerontologists" agree so closely, maybe they are the same people? So the first four articles are all really the same article, only the fifth seems to have some independent material, and the reliance on videos above further demonstrates the GNG failure. David's later comments about WP:WOP are right on target, and then Longevitydude admits the conflatability WP:WOP and GRG, and the accessibility of WP to GRG, by saying "you dont see the GRG making afds". Thus not only are the arguments a failure, they are carried out by multiple COI edits. The closer had better not wimp out with "NCDK". JJB 20:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

More false charges and attempted intimidation. Jan Goosenaerts's articles are NOT sourced from the GRG or from the WOP. They come from Belgium.

But more than that, you should stick to your own arguments. Saying that the other people's arguments are a "failure" is POV bias at least.

But more than that, this statement crosses the line of acceptability:

The closer had better not wimp out with "NCDK".

Excuse you, please get off your high horse. You are not "God". Now you are attempting to intimidate the closer's decision about this debate. That's unconscionable.

Do you consider the effect of your actions on others? You are pushing non-scientific POV's on a general encyclopedia that lots of kids read. Wikipedia is NOT a political campaign. Go back to AlterNetDaily. Speaking of "fringe," it's called "alter" net because it supports fringe views, like yours.Ryoung122 00:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete - Being the oldest person in a country does not guarantee notability. This is one of many trivial entries here that relate to human longevity that ought to get the axe. It is pure trivia and the obsession of a group of hobbyists, but there is nothing encyclopedic about it.Griswaldo (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - Since it seems like common outcomes of these types of articles is to delete, as indicated by the Oldest People talk page, why would this one be different? I'm not talking about WP:OTHERSTUFF here, I'm talking about common outcomes. We really need a policy for this type of article. — Timneu22 · talk 22:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment While I fully agree, that's a discussion for another, as yet created, page. Here, we're just called upon to decide if Jan Goossenaerts is notable. Once we're done (or contemporaneously if someone is so moved,) someone can propose an addition to WP:OUTCOMES. This page is about one tree. The forest can and should be considered by a larger part of the community, in a more visible way than a single AfD about the oldest man on (or perhaps in) Europe. David in DC (talk) 23:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete - Possessing a superlative trait (eg oldest man, tallest human, etc.) is not a concept of notability of itself because that is just a happenstance for that person at the time and place of interest and who else living or dead has been there. This is not to say that this trait cannot lead to other notable facets, which Walter Breuning (mostly) demostrates - his age led him to become notable, but that was, in part, due to living in America as opposed to other areas of the world where media coverage is zero to nil (eg the middle of rural China) but also from having done some somewhat notable aspects during his life. Jan G. here doesn't seem to have any of that reported in secondary sources, so this is just a happenstance. --MASEM (t) 22:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete Simply being very old does not make one notable. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E both certainly apply here. Resolute 00:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. He's old. We got it. We also dont give a fuck. Not notable per everyone. Carolyn Baker III (talk) 04:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep because he has significant independent coverage in multiple reliable sources and so meets the WP:GNG, and WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because there is no "event". Thparkth (talk) 12:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• "Multiple reliable sources"? Are you looking at the same entry as everyone else?Griswaldo (talk) 18:24, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• The article I'm looking at links to coverage in several sources, among them Voice of Russia, RTL, and Sud Presse. Thparkth (talk) 19:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Thparkth. First off, awesome user name dude. I didn't figure it out unti I tried to type it out. Then all wath revealed. On to business, please review JJB's earlier explanation of why four of the 5 sources are all mirrirs of one another. In pertinent part, he says: "[O]ne reason these newspapers are so convenient so quickly, yet without translation, is that WP:WOP and GRG are very often primary sources for such articles and know of their placement ahead of time: note "according to gerontologists" in first article and the very name GRG in the next three, each of which refer to "80 supercentenarians" (verified, living); compare list of living supercentenarians, what a coincidence that WP editors and "gerontologists" agree so closely, maybe they are the same people? So the first four articles are all really the same article, only the fifth seems to have some independent material, and the reliance on videos above further demonstrates the GNG failure."David in DC (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the key point is that four different reliable sources have taken the editorial decision to run this story - and that creates a presumption of notability for me. (The fifth source, somewhat confusingly, appears to be a political party.) Thparkth (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

In response to what someone said earlier, nothing makes a side look weak like attacking the person instead of the arguement, or cussing, something to think about. Longevitydude (talk) 19:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep The topic is notable because it is covered in detail in numerous reliable sources and so passes WP:GNG. The opinions above that extreme age is not notable are expressing a personal opinion rather than following the guideline and so violating core policy. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Umm, as I've said, reasonable editors can differ about whether the presumption set up by the first several bullets of WP:GNG control or whether the final bullet of WP:GNG, setting up the terms for rebutting the presumption, controls. But we're talking about the same guideline. Neither view violates WP:NPOV. David in DC (talk) 23:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• It appears that you wish to determine this matter based upon your own POV as to whether extreme age is notable. This is unacceptable as you are not a reliable source - you are just a random passerby with no special standing. The point of the guideline is to determine such matters by reference to independent third parties rather than taking a poll of whoever shows up at AFD. Your position violates multiple policies including WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:CENSOR. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• I fail to see the RS argument here. These sources are virtually mirrors of one another, which another editor has pointed out above. Also, trivia is published in newspapers in various forms and at various times to make the readers feel all warm and cozy inside but that's not what an encyclopedia does. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and certainly not the society section of one. I don't see your position as any less of an opinion than that of David. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Respectable newspapers are commonly used as sources on Wikipedia and are quite satisfactory for establishing notability because their professional status and reputation indicate the independent and reliable nature of the interest in the topic. In this case, they include Gazet van Antwerpen and De Standaard which seem quite adequate for our purposes. The opinions of individual editors here are quite worthless by comparison and there is not the slightest policy basis for accepting them instead. AFD is not a vote and editors are expected to bring evidence to the discussion, not their personal opinions. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Good ah point Colonel. I am going to think about re-evaluating my opinion now. I see the loggic in this, Thank you, Carolyn Baker III (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Keep or Merge.

I see several problems/issues with the "deletionist" arguments.

1. Notability is established by outside sources, not your personal opinion (Carolyn).

2. Some have said that persons cannot be notable for "old age" alone.

Yet if we run a Google search on news for "Eugenie Blanchard" we get more than 600 main articles in English, as well as other languages. So, that's a false argument.

Instead, the argument should be: "at what point does someone become notable for age"?

3. "Notability is not temporary." This is a poor argument. That is used for incidental, one-cycle news reports. But someone who is the "oldest man" in their nation, they have the title every day. And when they die, they are recorded as the titleholder. That's not temporary.

Do we say that, since George Kell won a batting title decades ago, he was notable in 1949 but not now? Also, we have every major league baseball player ever listed as "notable," coverage or not.Ryoung122 23:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Weak keep- Notability is measured entirely by the sources. Enough reliable, secondary sources that discuss the subject in detail enable an article to be written. Now, this guy probably comes in at the low end of the coverage but it's OK in my opinion. That said, three of the sources are nearly identical copies of each other. Reyk _YO! 00:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Timneu22, your comments have been extremely inappropriate, including calling your misspelling of "supercentenarian" a "fucking typo". And let's not forget your denying attacking users. Your comments are detrimental to both your image and this discussion. Please stop. Brendan (talk, contribs) 03:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I haven't commented on this for a long time, and I never attacked a user. You seem to care about my image far more than I do. It was a fucking typo. What's the damn big deal? And on further inspection, it's been two days since I commented on this thing, and no comment was "inappropriate". Unbelievable that you'd single my comments out. Two days ago! Sheesh. Irrelevant. — Timneu22 · talk 04:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't see any personal attacks either. Reyk _YO! 12:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep This guy scrapes the criteria, but scrape it still is. Brendan (talk, contribs) 03:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Those that argue that this passes the GNG need to show that significant coverage in secondary sources has been met. There is coverage, and there are sources, but that coverage is not significant (I would expect a bio and what contributions he has made to society, for example), and the sources are not secondary (they are third-party, sufficient for WP:V, but give no insight, analysis, or synthesis that one would expect from secondary sources; the articles simply say "he's old, he lives here". --MASEM (t) 14:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Summarization of comments without nonsense

When you take out all the off-topic remarks and poor accusations from both sides, the AfD looks like this: — Timneu22 · talk 14:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Context-removing, repetitive, and dated summary collapsed by JJB

Nomination: He's not notable because he's the oldest person in the country. Fails WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 16:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete couldn't find anything of use in google news. Secret ^account 16:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep hes a supercentenarian, and hes been the oldest man in the country for years, and if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country. Longevitydude (talk) 18:12, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. The logic for inclusion is faulty. Someday--perhaps very soon--this man will die. He will then no longer be the oldest person within a given geographical area. What will be the justification for the article THEN? The even less notable "He USED to be the oldest person within a given geographical area"? Or "Here lie the bones of a guy who was briefly non-notable for being the oldest person in a geographical area"? He is not sufficiently notable now, and the moment he dies he becomes completely non-notable. Let's not wait till then. Let's delete it now, because we're only going to have to delete it later. True notability is not something that expires with death. Qworty (talk) 19:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete I believe there's no policy or guideline that decrees that being the oldest man in (or perhaps on) a continent is, per se, notable. I've occasionally believed six impossible things before breakfast, so I could be wrong. If I am, please show me where to look. (Interesting, but probably not dispositive, is the fact that one of the "impossible things" in the White Queen's oration to Alice is a claim to be a centenarian.)
  
• Commment: I know we've had lots of AfDs on supercentenarians before, as we have tons of articles on them, so the nomination by itself doesn't tell me why we should delete this one over any other one. E.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martha Graham (supercentenarian). If not kept, the content needs to be merged into an article such as List of American supercentenarians, as was done in the case of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas Nelson (supercentenarian). In this case it would be List of European supercentenarians--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 21:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
• Redirect to List of Belgian supercentenarians. He's gotten written up in newspapers,[8][9][10][11] but all they really say is, other than him being the oldest European man, that he's fairly healthy, and has some children and grandchildren. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete because he just recently became a supercentenarian. He isn't like Frederica Sagor Maas, who, now validated, has been recognized by other sources rather than just her nearby/local newspaper. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 15:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep because male supercentenarians are already very rare Petervermaelen 18:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep: The nom's very much in error. The text of the GNG is "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Supercentenarians provoke a LOT of articles and news stories about them. Want to bet I can't find at least several articles in reliable sources about him? He's only the fifth living male supercentenarian in the world. Heck, he only has to make it a few more months to crack the top 100 of the oldest verified men in recorded history. That's not notable?  RGTraynor  18:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: RGTraynor has a good point about WP:GNG, in his second sentence above. However, I think it's answered in the last bullet of that policy: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not.David in DC (talk) 20:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep/Merge The article has the potential to meet Wikipedia standards if reliable sources are used - they do exist. As it stands, the article is very poor. I think nominating the article for deletion a mere 20 minutes after its creation has not helped the matter. If the article isn't improved, then I would have to say redirect to List of Belgian supercentenarians until the article meets Wikipedia standards. SiameseTurtle (talk) 14:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • The problem is the article was never given a chance to be improved, if supercentenarians are not notable, they why do so many people think so, who is anyone to tell us what we should consider notable, all we do is ask others to respect our views on what we consider notable, we don't make afds on what you consider notable, so please don't do it to us. Longevitydude (talk) 14:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • OK, im calm now, but seriously, five refs, I know there have been more in the past that just cant be found, but still, thats a reasonable amount, but learn to have respect for other peoples opinions of notability, you dont see the GRG making afds for stuff that you think is notable that they dont care about, is a little consideration too much to ask? Longevitydude (talk) 15:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep/Merge per SimaeseTurtle. It looks like the general notability guideline is met, unless someone can explain how WP:BASIC indicates it does not meet notability. --Bsherr (talk) 16:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • WP:GNG creates a presumption. The final bullet in WP:GNG makes the presumption rebuttable. It gives exactly the reason for rebuting the presumption that this article presents. Please see this earlier comment and review the interplay the last bullet of WP:GNG describes between the presumption and WP:NOT. David in DC (talk) 18:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Strong delete or redirect if there ever was one. The assumption of WP:WOP is that having turned 110 and held a regional title, which is conferred basically by Yahoo WOP, which contains a vast membership overlap with WP:WOP, makes one notable. No, it makes one notable for line-item inclusion in lists. Goossenaerts is already in five WP lists, with which a "bio" article (what bio?) would be wholly redundant (there is nothing to merge!). My basic view is that a supercentenarian becomes article-notable (not at age 110 but) when there is enough interest in something other about her or him than just being 110 (otherwise, via WP:BLP1E, they should be redirected to a base list, i.e., list of living supercentenarians). There are many more problems that do not have time or place for discussion now, but some of them appear at WP:FTN#Longevity-cruft, WP:COIN#User:Ryoung122 on Longevity myths, and Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-01-04/Longevity myths.
• Delete - Being the oldest person in a country does not guarantee notability. This is one of many trivial entries here that relate to human longevity that ought to get the axe. It is pure trivia and the obsession of a group of hobbyists, but there is nothing encyclopedic about it.Griswaldo (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - Since it seems like common outcomes of these types of articles is to delete, as indicated by the Oldest People talk page, why would this one be different? I'm not talking about WP:OTHERSTUFF here, I'm talking about common outcomes. We really need a policy for this type of article. — Timneu22 · talk 22:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment While I fully agree, that's a discussion for another, as yet created, page. Here, we're just called upon to decide if Jan Goossenaerts is notable. Once we're done (or contemporaneously if someone is so moved,) someone can propose an addition to WP:OUTCOMES. This page is about one tree. The forest can and should be considered by a larger part of the community, in a more visible way than a single AfD about the oldest man on (or perhaps in) Europe. David in DC (talk) 23:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete - Possessing a superlative trait (eg oldest man, tallest human, etc.) is not a concept of notability of itself because that is just a happenstance for that person at the time and place of interest and who else living or dead has been there. This is not to say that this trait cannot lead to other notable facets, which Walter Breuning (mostly) demostrates - his age led him to become notable, but that was, in part, due to living in America as opposed to other areas of the world where media coverage is zero to nil (eg the middle of rural China) but also from having done some somewhat notable aspects during his life. Jan G. here doesn't seem to have any of that reported in secondary sources, so this is just a happenstance. --MASEM (t) 22:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete Simply being very old does not make one notable. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E both certainly apply here. Resolute 00:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. He's old. We got it. We also dont give a fuck. Not notable per everyone. Carolyn Baker III (talk) 04:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep because he has significant independent coverage in multiple reliable sources and so meets the WP:GNG, and WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because there is no "event". Thparkth (talk) 12:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• "Multiple reliable sources"? Are you looking at the same entry as everyone else?Griswaldo (talk) 18:24, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• The article I'm looking at links to coverage in several sources, among them Voice of Russia, RTL, and Sud Presse. Thparkth (talk) 19:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Thparkth, please review JJB's earlier explanation of why four of the 5 sources are all mirrirs of one another. In pertinent part, he says: "[O]ne reason these newspapers are so convenient so quickly, yet without translation, is that WP:WOP and GRG are very often primary sources for such articles and know of their placement ahead of time: note "according to gerontologists" in first article and the very name GRG in the next three, each of which refer to "80 supercentenarians" (verified, living); compare list of living supercentenarians, what a coincidence that WP editors and "gerontologists" agree so closely, maybe they are the same people? So the first four articles are all really the same article, only the fifth seems to have some independent material, and the reliance on videos above further demonstrates the GNG failure."David in DC (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the key point is that four different reliable sources have taken the editorial decision to run this story - and that creates a presumption of notability for me. (The fifth source, somewhat confusingly, appears to be a political party.) Thparkth (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep The topic is notable because it is covered in detail in numerous reliable sources and so passes WP:GNG. The opinions above that extreme age is not notable are expressing a personal opinion rather than following the guideline and so violating core policy. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Umm, as I've said, reasonable editors can differ about whether the presumption set up by the first several bullets of WP:GNG control or whether the final bullet of WP:GNG, setting up the terms for rebutting the presumption, controls. But we're talking about the same guideline. Neither view violates WP:NPOV. David in DC (talk) 23:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• It appears that you wish to determine this matter based upon your own POV as to whether extreme age is notable. This is unacceptable as you are not a reliable source - you are just a random passerby with no special standing. The point of the guideline is to determine such matters by reference to independent third parties rather than taking a poll of whoever shows up at AFD. Your position violates multiple policies including WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:CENSOR. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• I fail to see the RS argument here. These sources are virtually mirrors of one another, which another editor has pointed out above. Also, trivia is published in newspapers in various forms and at various times to make the readers feel all warm and cozy inside but that's not what an encyclopedia does. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and certainly not the society section of one. I don't see your position as any less of an opinion than that of David. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Respectable newspapers are commonly used as sources on Wikipedia and are quite satisfactory for establishing notability because their professional status and reputation indicate the independent and reliable nature of the interest in the topic. In this case, they include Gazet van Antwerpen and De Standaard which seem quite adequate for our purposes. The opinions of individual editors here are quite worthless by comparison and there is not the slightest policy basis for accepting them instead. AFD is not a vote and editors are expected to bring evidence to the discussion, not their personal opinions. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Good ah point Colonel. I am going to think about re-evaluating my opinion now. I see the loggic in this, Thank you, Carolyn Baker III (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep or Merge. I see several problems/issues with the "deletionist" arguments.
  1. Notability is established by outside sources, not your personal opinion (Carolyn).
  2. Some have said that persons cannot be notable for "old age" alone. Yet if we run a Google search on news for "Eugenie Blanchard" we get more than 600 main articles in English, as well as other languages. So, that's a false argument. Instead, the argument should be: "at what point does someone become notable for age"?
  3. "Notability is not temporary." This is a poor argument. That is used for incidental, one-cycle news reports. But someone who is the "oldest man" in their nation, they have the title every day. And when they die, they are recorded as the titleholder. That's not temporary.
• Do we say that, since George Kell won a batting title decades ago, he was notable in 1949 but not now? Also, we have every major league baseball player ever listed as "notable," coverage or not.Ryoung122 23:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
• Weak keep- Notability is measured entirely by the sources. Enough reliable, secondary sources that discuss the subject in detail enable an article to be written. Now, this guy probably comes in at the low end of the coverage but it's OK in my opinion. That said, three of the sources are nearly identical copies of each other. Reyk _YO! 00:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep This guy scrapes the criteria, but scrape it still is. Brendan (talk, contribs) 03:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Those that argue that this passes the GNG need to show that significant coverage in secondary sources has been met. There is coverage, and there are sources, but that coverage is not significant (I would expect a bio and what contributions he has made to society, for example), and the sources are not secondary (they are third-party, sufficient for WP:V, but give no insight, analysis, or synthesis that one would expect from secondary sources; the articles simply say "he's old, he lives here". --MASEM (t) 14:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. As per people Peter Vermaelen and Robert Douglas Young. 62.235.160.79 (talk) 20:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep.for respect for him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.227.30.79 (talk) 20:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment: The above two are evidence of WP:CANVASSING. A previous serious charge of canvassing from a private list in a similar (merge) discussion occurs here. (I have also been accused of canvassing via a statement above, but the difference is that I informed everyone I was doing it and I notified two editors on one side and one workgroup on the other side.) JJB 20:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have no idea who those anonymous edits are from. That said, canvassing ON-WIKI is a violation of Wiki rules and within Wiki-jurisdiction. Posting material on a third-party site is not...it's outside Wikipedia. But in any case, that was a post regarding Longevity myths, not Jan Goosenaerts.76.17.118.157 (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Someone can be notable simply for being very old, in which case there will be plenty of coverage in the media. In this case there is only a small amount of coverage. If in time there is more coverage then the article can be re-created. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
  • As usual, we find that JJBulten asked you to come here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Itsmejudith#Nomination_of_Jan_Goossenaerts_for_deletion. More canvassing.76.17.118.157 (talk) 01:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. WP:GNG should control, not sentiment or WP:CRUFTCRUFT. I respect arguments that the existing cited coverage is not significant, but I disagree with them; the cites provide enough material to source a passable article from, which seems to me the most natural standard to use. —chaos5023 (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Yes, the article is quite short, but I can see great potential for it to be improved. It is, in any case, a tad too long for a merged section as it has more information than any of the other living Belgian supercentenarians. Brendan (talk, contribs) 07:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)