User talk:Arzel

Mediator available

Don't know if you noticed, but WGFinley offered to mediate our case and so far, 7 out of 12 editors have signified agreement here. If you have any reservations about him, I understand - I believe the decision needs to be unanimous - but if you're willing, assigning a mediator this way will considerably faster as AGK indicated here it may take two to three weeks otherwise. Thanks for checking it out. AzureCitizen (talk) 21:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with WGFinley, he seems to be a reasonable choice. Arzel (talk) 21:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks! AzureCitizen (talk) 21:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Restoring Honor Mediation

Greetings!

I have agreed to mediate the Restoring Honor case. I'm requesting that all parties start with opening statements, instructions are at the top of the page. Thanks for agreeing to go to mediation, I'm hopeful we can get this resolved to the satisfaction of all parties. Don't hesitate to contact me with any questions or issues. --WGFinley (talk) 00:53, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Meg Whitman

My edits were in good faith. No POV was added. Tightened lede and copy edited over weighted section as discussed on talk page. Consensus was followed. As a major contributer to the article and member of project Biography of a Living Person don't understand your summary. I only ask to assume good faith.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I was mostly focused on the undocumented alien maid. This section has been the focus of poltical posturing, and when I saw you add some words like "however" and "claims" to link sections together it reads like NPOV. I should have been more specific. Arzel (talk) 14:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

My born date

Vindictive editor's comments closed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Could you have a look here? [1]. If you could also make a correction on the SPI page, that would be appreciated. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 16:37, 16 October 2010 (UTC) If you were to correct the noted error and not leave knowingly false information in place as strikethrough text that would be appreciated. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 17:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC) Your correction is noticeably less prominent than you error. The issue is not me, but BS24, and if you could focus on the substantial and relevant evidence for BS24's alleged and well-noted disruptiveness, that might be of help to his case. I would suggest that posts about me will have no bearing on how an Admin will conduct the investigation. As to my sockpuppet investigation, which was concluded in my favor, you can find out more about it here.[2] The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 18:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC) I would also would like you to correct your false assertion that I am opposed to the mediation process. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2010 (UTC) If you had not made statements that would make people think that you and IP82 were the same person and had just used your account instead of IP67 and IP69 then you would never had a checkuser against you. As for the mediation process, I cannot correct which is not false. You have been the most vocal against the mediation process. Arzel (talk) 19:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC) I'm unaware statements of mine to that effect, and have always wondered what is being referred to. (BTW, no one could figure out what was meant by IP82) It's impossible to declare someone who agrees to mediation, and has not since agreement voiced any opposition, as an active opponent of mediation. It could do the right thing and correct your posts maintaining that error. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 00:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC) I suggest you go back and read some of your own comments here. If that is not opposition then please tell me where that line is. Arzel (talk) 02:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC) The line is chronological, and all my above comments have addressed that aspect. If you would take back your statements that make it seem that I'm presently opposed, I would be grateful. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 03:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC) Hear that? Crickets. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 04:21, 18 October 2010 (UTC) Your hostile and confrontational tone in any and all disputes is very unbecoming and doesn't help your vendetta against me and others. BS24 (talk) 01:33, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Stalking

BS24 used so many socks that it was near impossible to detect which tags he didn't add. An editor restored those for which there was consensus and non-disruptive. And in case you're concerned that you've unintentionally may have suggested that I was being disruptive, this may help you. [3]. As for Wikistalking? Hmmm. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 17:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I never said you were disruptive, even though you are disruptive. I said you were vindictive. Probably the most vindictive editor I have ever seen on WP. Normally I would simply remove your trollish comments, but I have decided that others should also be able to see a history of your vindictiveness. Happy Halloween. Arzel (talk) 00:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:NPA. Watch the fishes of your aquarium and relax! 82.135.29.209 (talk) 01:39, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Considering that 47 of your last 50 edits (as I write this) are centered around an editor, rather than content, you do appear to be bordering on, if not already, Wikipedia:Harassment and/or Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Administration has responded to the SPI, and since you have nothing new to add regarding recent activity of sockpuppetry, this is the point where editors drop the stick and walk away. // Akerans (talk) 15:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Nah. Good try though. Admins who seem to have fashioned a double secret stature of limitations need help, especially when the SPI subject has trucked in so many blatant empirical falsehoods that they can not go unadressed. Now, if you would like to substantially counter the charges, and without resorting any of the multi-faceted ad hominem attacks adopted by BS24 and Arzel, hop to it. BS24 and Arzel seem to be without that capacity. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I really like how you manage multiple personal attacks on both BS24 and myself in so few words. Arzel (talk) 22:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Somehow I don't think that was flattery. Prove my charges wrong, and I'll gift wrap a mea culpa. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It is not possible to prove the negative. Arzel (talk) 22:28, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

You just lost me. All the documentation positively proves that BS24 (who may have had enough socks to go into the double digits) actively evaded scrutiny, and falsely claimed to have been on indefinite ban for one act of vandalism. So what would be the negatives you can't prove? The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 22:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The recent sockpuppets that you didn't list. Can't disprove those. That is not to say I would try to disprove them, however. Akerans (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikiquette alert for The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous

Hello, Arzel. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. BS24 (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC) -

Liar

Pointless discussion done
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"Liar" is your word which you put in my mouth. BS24's "mendacity" (my word) damningly documented by me and Xenophrenic; so well that I suppose that is why there has been no substantial response, but only the assumption of the pitiful victim role. I stand by the charge. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC) You typed it, not me, so unless you have a different meaning for it, you have stated that BS24 has a tendency to not tell the truth. Perhaps I should have said you basically called him a habitual liar. Arzel (talk) 21:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC) My mouth's full of words you keep jamming in there. Maybe you could substantially defend BS24 against the charges. He hasn't, but you could should there be such a defense. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC) Arzel, AKA has a really good point here: Both in the SPI and in the WQA you are not arguing the matter, but "but insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his or her argument [...]. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions." 82.135.29.209 (talk) 11:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC) Not sure how you can make such a statement when AKA is the one insulting and belittling others. Note, this section is closed. Arzel (talk) 16:39, 31 October 2010 (UTC) Last word's mine! The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 19:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the warning...

But honestly, if they manage to get me blocked, I shan't have any faith in wikipedia anyways. Whatever that tool may say I'm no man's sockpuppet and have plenty of personality to prove it. Soxwon (talk) 00:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I hear you there. Arzel (talk) 01:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You aren't a sock? Dude, you have SOX right in your name; that is such in-your-face-guilt that you should just admit it right now. Case closed. Xenophrenic (talk) 05:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

A question...

Arzel, I have a question about your comment about BS24 where you say, He then starts over without causing any problems, and by all accounts has been a reasonable editor during the past 10 months. I know that's the narrative he has been pushing, but I think that may be the source of his difficulties right now. A quick examination of his first 13 edits as BS24 (and the images he uploaded to commons at that time) shows he was still in vandalism mode. Can you please take a look at those 13 edits & images, and give me an explanation for them that doesn't include vandalism? I'm predicting you can not. He didn't create the BS24 account as a clean start; it was his 7th attempt at evading his block (his prior 6 sock accounts were caught and blocked), and luckily for him no one discovered it was a sock until recently. Yes, he admitted it, but only after an SPI report was filed with evidence making it impossible to deny. Still, I think he has a chance to recover his editing privileges if he drops the little lies he's been telling while trying to save face, and focuses instead on the greater truth that he's been trying to be a productive editor for many months now. Plenty of admins are willing to go with the redemption route, as long as they don't perceive BS24 is lying to them about certain details. I notice you offered to help him get his block lifted. If you feel there is any merit to what I've said, perhaps you can convey it to him (he's not likely to listen to me); or if you disagree with me, just disregard this. Thanks, Xenophrenic (talk) 05:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I guess it depends upon your personal definition of reasonable. Was he perfect, probably not, but then who is. He obviously felt like no admins were listening to his side of the NYyankees51 story, and by all accounts they were not. Should he have gone the preferred route regarding NYyankees51, yeah, I would say he should have. However, if you look at his history as BS24 for the past months he has been a reasonable editor. At least as reasonable as most people. You say his first 13 edits are not reasonable, and maybe they were not but what matters is what he is doing in recent history. Blocks are supposed to be corrective, and the actions regarding NYyankees51 seem to have resulted in that corrective behaviour. What is the point of redemtion if there is a vindictive attitude that says, "Yeah I know you have been pretty good the past few months, but it doesn't matter because you did something wrong 10 months ago." Arzel (talk) 14:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you missed the point of my comment. I personally have no doubt he was involved in some juvenile antics with one or more friends/family, and it included article vandalism. I also agree that he has maintained a marginally productive edit history in recent months (he still needs work on edit warring, civility, combative attitude ... but there are certainly worse editors that are not blocked). The point I was making is if he wants to salvage his BS24 account (or his NYyankees51 account, if admins so insist), he needs to quit morphing his story and excuses at every turn. Admins don't want to be spending time on this crap, so if he just admits his wrongs, apologizes and promises it won't happen again, the admins will eagerly jump on it and give him a pass. (Much to Mr. Anon's chagrin, I'm sure...) But the longer he plays the defense & excuse game of trying to justify BS24 as a "clean start" and insisting he did nothing wrong when creating it, or claiming he didn't know what "avoiding scrutiny" was ... he's just begging to have admins (or worse, his fan club of Wikipedia editors that don't like him) pick apart his every word. As his self-appointed defense attorney, you should have advised him to roll over and play dead, so that the admins would give him "one more chance" just to close the books on this issue. Just my opinion, of course. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

It is my assumption that he is telling the truth, so telling him to roll over just didn't factor into my logic. I believe in playing it straight, also, I don't think AKA or 82 would allow him to play dead. They seem pretty insistant of trying to shoot holes in his history (you are not helping matters either). Certainly, he has made a couple of contridictory statements, but given that this happened almost a year ago I am not surprised that he might get a couple of facts wrong. However, if you look at his actions during this time it is easy to see how it was something juvenile. The history of the edits between IP68 and NYyankees clearly support his general story. Also, if he was a habitual sock user, then why has there been no suspected socks in relation to the RTH mediation. If ever there was a time for a sock user to employ socks it would have been then to strengthen his argument. His actions do not conform to disruptive sock abuse outside of the incident almost one year ago. Arzel (talk) 02:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are suspected socks since the Restore Honor mediation, although I'm not sure how strong the suspicion is. And yeah, I know I appear to be part of the "pile-on" in the BS24 situation, but I just interject to correct errors -- sometimes even those made by admins. I'm ambivalent as to whether BS24 is blocked or not (as I'm certain he will be editing Wikipedia for a long time to come, one way or another), but I will speak up when I see blatant falsifications. You never did give me your opinion about his first 13 edits as BS24 -- and the images he uploaded. He has told some truths, and he has lied a bit -- and unfortunately, he lied when he said BS24 was created as a clean start effort. He may have slowly developed it into an account he decided to keep, and is now fighting to keep, but it most certainly didn't start that way. I could easily have been convinced that he is not "a habitual sock user", if it weren't for all the other deception involved in this mess right now. Xenophrenic (talk) 02:50, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know the specifics of the situations he was referring to, so it is hard to judge. The one image is gone, I don't understand the other image. It doesn't appear on the surface to be anything that egregious, at least not compared to most of the crap that people put on WP. So I don't quite know where you are going with this. Arzel (talk) 03:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The recent 9 month

Arzel, it wasn't just 10 month ago... As one of many samples: Less than one month ago an IP made a valid change which was well substantiated by a new source[4]. But then BS24 reverted that change and gave the user a dressing-down "Please [...] read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia."[5]. Treating new editors in such a way makes it harder to gain and retain motivated and constructive Wikipedia contributors, hurting Wikipedia. Do you think this such contributions of BS24 are "reasonable"? Over the time, BS24 made many good edits, but also various bad edits. I'm absolutely in favor of giving everyone new chances. I just think for using a second change it is a better idea to signal understanding of wrong behavior in the past and indicate changed behavior for the future (which really does not hurt, which I know from own experience). He should be careful which path to take. 82.135.29.209 (talk) 10:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Give me a break. You stalk BS24 to other articles and revert him out of spite and claim he is the one that needs to work on his editing? That IP editor that you ran to defend has a history of making edits that don't match sources. Arzel (talk) 13:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It's simple: BS24 reverted an substantiated edit from me by ridiculously claiming that it was vandalism. And then, after the "fresh start" discussion started in the SPI, I was interested into finding out if he did this to others, too. And therefore I was looking into the history of BS24. Note that this IP edit was perfectly reasonable and matching the sources - please verify it! Look at the SPI page, it's all documented, readable for everyone, including admins. Ok, you tell me again how @&$§?*# I am because of all this. But I notic that you don't try to defend these recent BS24 edits as "reasonable". 82.135.29.209 (talk) 20:38, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any edit from BS24 where he called your edit vandalism. The IP150 edit that he reverted was not with malice, so I don't know what your problem is. Arzel (talk) 02:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding vandalism: Again, look at the SPI page, it's all documented. Or you also can just look at the first entry of my talk page. Regarding IP150: The problem is not the edit of that IP, but BS24's reaction to it. Also here, please look at the SPI page. I have the impression that you are not very familiar with the facts of the SPI. 82.135.29.209 (talk) 10:45, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Speaker of the House

Could we at least keep the part about how sometimes the Speaker can be influential even when they belong to the same party? Thank You. Politics2012 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC).

RE: This is not acceptable. Please read WP:BLP and WP:RS Arzel (talk) 23:00, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

From Johndarth, To Arzel: - While you deleted this simple unbiased addition because you challanged the reference, there is now an entire section on this page with other references showing my addition to be factual. Before you edit for 'fact' and legitimacy of references, you should check the references for accuracy. There should also be policies on Wiki, about restricting edits by those who make improper edits citing Wiki policies, when they turn out to be in error. My addition was factual. Your removal was wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johndarth (talk • contribs) 13:34, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

NYyankees51 SPI

Arzel, I can assure you there is no "mission". I also didn't search for socks; someone else reported these diffs to me, I was just the one who reported them into a SPI. If there are new socks, then they should be blocked. If not, then not. That's all. 82.135.29.209 (talk) 06:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

All in all, I suggest for the future that everyone leaves all this personal animosities behind and focus on improving Wikipedia articles and on a subject oriented discussion at the mediation. And note that a mediation is not about majority and voting; changing the list of participants of a mediation does not change the facts. Peace? 82.135.29.209 (talk) 06:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Peace can only be given to those that extend their hand. Stop extending your fist and you will recieve peace. Arzel (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I see you are still punching BS24 in the face. I bet you are a griefer as well. Arzel (talk) 16:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Arzel, just a quick observation, did you see this edit here? He removed the strike-out of BS24's opening statement on the grounds that it would be ad hominem to discount what he had to say just because he's blocked. AGF, or another punch in the face? The edit was around 4:39 AM this morning. Respect, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:17, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

IP82 needs to build some more relationship chits. He is running a pretty high negative balance right now. Arzel (talk) 23:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Empirical note

You are very mistaken. SpecialK is the ONLY one I've accused of being a sock since the BS24 SPI. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 19:07, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I said you think everyone is a sock. I didn't say that you have accused everyone, but it is really just semantics. You might as well make your SPI case against SK, Xeno is probabably not going to take this action since it will look like a retribution attack against SK for the 3RR fracus between them. Let me know when you are done being a complete JA regarding the whole BS24 situation. Arzel (talk) 19:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

To paraphrase you: I didn't say it, but it's just semantics, so I did say it. What makes you think BS24, completely reversing compulsive tendencies, won't use socks again, if not already? The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 19:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Arzel, regarding the "fracus between SpecialK and myself", you should recall that during that short edit war, SpecialK exceeded 3RR while I did not, and then he made the mistake of reporting it, and he was blocked for it. No skin off my nose; there is nothing for which I should exact "retribution". You are correct, however, that I won't be participating in an SPI linking BS24 to SpecialK, but that's simply because I don't see any connection. Being a conservative, POV pusher in American politics, edit warrior and obnoxious, can describe many thousands of Wikipedia editors, and is not enough in common to warrant the accusation. I'm fairly certain SpecialK has other prior and present identities, and I've a good idea who two of them are -- but BS24 isn't one of them. I'm with Arzel in cautioning against a sock-hunt feeding frenzy, but much of what BS24 is dealing with now he brought upon himself. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's see. A 3 year editing history of not socking, followed by a month (give or take) of socking, followed by 9 months of not socking. Plus, the fact no one has been able to demonstrate s/he's socked in that 9 months. Somewhere someone has mentioned some IP address, but I chalk that up to forgetting to log-in. Something of which you're guilty (you've edited from a number of IPs yourself), so you can't fault him/her for that.

Speaking of which, how about the fact you included one of your IP edits in your initial SPI report against BS24, and then claimed it was made by BS24! If anyone is guilty of recent socking, it's you. And, you didn't even own up to that fact. All you did was say you shouldn't address comments to other editors. So, I have a lot more faith in BS24's desire to be a positive contributor to the project than than stuff you've shown in the past few weeks. Giving your lack of civility to a number of administrators of late, I'm surprised you haven't been blocked yet for your disruptive attitude. You've clearly demonstrated to me that you're no longer here to contribute positive to the project, and are only seeking to stir up trouble where ever you go. Akerans (talk) 20:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

(Akerans, I believe, is addressing me. I previously shined his allegation of sock puppetry as too weird and nonsensical. And it still seems so to me.)

Akerans' definition of a sock and Wikipedia's, which requires deception, are in conflict. I signed a lot of my post Mr Anon, so they would be traced back to me, not to maliciously evade scrutiny. (Could you think of a worse way to go on the Wiki lam?[6]) I now log on because the opposite suspicion happened, obvioulsy. Opening new accounts while on indefinite block, as NYyankees51 did again and again and again, may win your admiration, but if that's what it takes to get it, I'll pass. Only in your mind am I "guilty of recent socking," and you and others can stay so convinced without my taking offense. This posting is more for others to see and to clear the record. Finally, it's false to say that I have not been mute on the matter.[7]. I hope you simply misspoke because you did not check my SPI, and are not revealing a sense of entitlement larger than the that which SPI admins can rightfully enjoy. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 23:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

If you knew you signed your IP edits as Mr Anon, then why did you claim that was BS24's edit in the first place? That's a clear case of an attempt on your part to mislead, deceive, and/or disrupt. And a previous SPI against you doesn't excuse you for making such deceptive claims against other users. Akerans (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, I get it. You're habit of reading less than closely has not diminished, and there is no deception to speak of. I cited those edits by mistake, fixed it, and said so when I said, "Akerans is right and I did direct comments to other editors, which I should not have done and will not make any excuses for." Note that stating "I did direct those comments" (the ones cited then and now) shows those posts are clearly owned by me, and could not belong to BS24, or suggested to be his except by mistake. I thought that was so clear and unmistakable at the time, and I still don't know where the confusion is from. Anything else you might want, though you may already have it? Just ask, I'll be waiting here outside your distortion field. 02:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC) (Updated to stress the obvious after Akerans replied to post in original form[8])

No, that wasn't you owning up to the fact that you tried to pass off one of your edit summaries as someone else. That was you admitting to the edit summary. Do you not understand the difference? Based on your recent post, appears as though you're chalking it up as a mistake. However, as an editor who tends accuse others of "reading less", I have to wonder how you missed "Mr Anon" in the edit summary, twice no less. Perhaps you can start holding yourself to the same kind of standard you expect of everyone else? Akerans (talk) 14:53, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

You really don't have to think it was just an accidental mistake. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 15:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

BTW, you did not quote my initial report, you quoted a follow up, though it was easy to see as such since I headed it "(Additional evidence in response to BS24's statement.)". I'm seeing a pattern of sloppiness, which though undoubtly based on good faith, makes me need to check your citations in order to consider them carefully. A little onerous, but, oh well.The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of my label, that's the correct diff of you making the deceptive claim. So, knowing that was your edit, why did you say the edit belonged to someone else? Two of them no less! You included two edits signed with Mr Anon and claimed they were BS24?! You tell us that you knew they were yours, and you did it anyway? And you don't see the deception on your part? Akerans (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Hello, lo, lo, lo. AK in the echo chamber, y'all. Easy now. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 03:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Ahhh, hear that? Crickets. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 19:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

3 year editing history of not being caught socking, followed by two months of socking and vandalism, followed by 9 months of editing on a sock. Plus, he has edited from IPs extensively, claiming, for instance, that 50+ edits across several articles over just a couple days was simply "forgetting to log in". Since being recently confronted, his biggest problem has been his lying -- not a good trait for someone wanting to turn over a new leaf. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Point of fact: NYyankees51 admittedly spent 11 (2+9) months as a sock of NYyankees51, as best we know. A sum likely to swell, no doubt, and unfortunately. As for SpecialK, Xeno probably has a better read on that editor, and unless I find more to pursue it, I'm letting it slide for now, even though I still strongly suspect him as a sock of NYyankees51. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 23:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Distinction w/o difference

Not only was your statement incorrect and a distinction without a difference, NYyankees51 could not stop lying. The admin who rejected his third all but proved this. BTW, scolding that admin won't help BS24, quiet the opposite. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 01:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That Admin didn't prove anything, and neither have you, other than that you are vindictive. Arzel (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Nah. Funny how you never acknowledge a mistake, or only read half of a short sentence. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 15:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

"Helping" NYyankees51

closed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hi Arzel! I believe you that you want to help NYyankees51. But it seems to obvious for everyone else that you are more hurting than helping him. Yes, when not even looking into the original evidence in the SPI, you may really think by yourself and claim that he has a "largely good edit history". But if this leads NYyankees51 that he tries to defends his bad actions, this makes it harder for people to assume good faith. Think about it! 82.135.29.209 (talk) 11:26, 6 November 2010 (UTC) This coming from a WP:SPA that hides behind an IP address. Arzel (talk) 12:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC) That is an unfortunate and baseless smear. Retracting it would be a good step. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 15:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC) As I write this; 40 of 44 (89.24%) article edits have been to Restoring Honor Rally. 200 of 208 (96.15%) talk edits have been to Talk:Restoring Honor Rally. Most of the 118 user talk edits focus on Restoring Honor Rally and/or NYyankees51/BS24. And, most of the Wikipedia and Wikipedia talk edits focus on Restoring Honor Rally and/or NYyankees51/BS24. 82.135.29.209 has a couple edits outside of Restoring Honor Rally and/or NYyankees51/BS24 to address sock puppet allegations of other uses and user name request. Sources: Edit Counter, Restoring Honor Rally edit count, Talk:Restoring Honor Rally edit count, 82.135.29.209 User talk edits, 82.135.29.209 Wikipedia edits, 82.135.29.209 Wikipedia talk edits. // Akerans (talk) 16:28, 6 November 2010 (UTC) You must think I don't know that IP209 is SPA (a fact not damning in and of itself at all). Oh well. Not my fault. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 16:51, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Or, the word "baseless" seems to have some completely different meaning of which I'm not aware. Care to elaborate? Akerans (talk) 17:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC) On what? The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 18:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Crickets? The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 21:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Hello, Arzel. You have new messages at JamesBWatson's talk page. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template. JamesBWatson (talk) 14:13, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Notification

So you know, I have provided a diff containing one of your comments in a Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. Akerans (talk) 21:03, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

time of year to give Thanks

		The Teamwork Barnstar
		To Arzel in appreciation of your efforts in working with others to build not only good articles, but in helping to make Wikipedia a collegial community. Well done. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:46, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

regarding fox

Please read the source and use the discuss page. The version you reverted the article to is clearly a misrepresentation of the source. If you are unhappy with my formulation, feel free to come up with another one, but the current one cannot say, since it is false description of the source.--Kmhkmh (talk) 06:05, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Death Panel

I made some changes on the basis of neutrality and you reversed it on the grounds of source reliability. This does not make sense. We cannot have a section called "Rationing" and then sub it with NICE and IPAB as if it were correct that these are rationing bodies. That is POV. By putting the headings as questions it leaves it open to the reader to read the sections and decide for themselves. I am just about to edit the article to give counterbalancing opinions on this issue. My edit was therefore on the grounds of NPOV and not reliabilty. --Hauskalainen (talk) 18:26, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

You renamed the headers with a question. Is NICE a Death Panel? We already know that your point of view is that they are not. You then present the information in order to answer the question No. This is Original Research in a very basic form. WP is NOT a research paper. Arzel (talk) 18:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

No, I renamed the header "Is NICE comparable with the IPAB?", Not "Is NICE a Death Panel? . This is to invite the reader to look at the unsubstantiated opinion expressed by David Grazter and compare it with hard evidence from UK sources. Gratzer claimed that it was a comparable body and I wanted to present material that shows it isn't. The IPAB sets doctors remuneration and NICE has nothing at all to do with doctor's salaries. That is the work of two other groups wholly unconnected to NICE. The fact that NICE is a clinical research reviewer which gives guidance to clinicians and IPAB does not. It was totally POV for the article just to list NICE under RATIONING and have a statement from an unreliable Canadian comparing chalk and cheese and calling them "comparable". I cannot delete an untruth because a reliable source published it, so I can only present more believable information from even more reliable sources to show that there is another view. Which way the reader answers the question in the section heading would be entirely up to them. Hauskalainen (talk) 01:27, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Potato - Tomato, in either case you are presenting your own research. You may not agree with Grazter opinion, but that does not mean that he is wrong, and for you to try to prove that he is wrong is a violation of original research. Arzel (talk) 01:58, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Now what "original research" would that be? my "research" that Doctors pay in England is recommended by the Pay Review Board? I am sorry but that does not need research of any kind, its just common fact. Most adults in England know this. Same with the army and other civil servants. We simply cannot allow David Gratzer's claim that IPAB and NICE are doing the same job to stand unchallenged because it simply is not true. NICE's main job is clinical research and public health promotion, and now safety standards. IPAB does none of these things. That was what I was adding to the article. Simple facts supported by references to allow the readers to decide the question for themselves.

Getting off the topic of my edit and into the real world, of course what Gratzer was trying to equate is something which IPAB has been set up to do (i.e. to make cuts) and something that NICE is perceived to do (which is to put a value on a benefit and ask is the value of the benefit worth the cost given that we have a budget and 57 million insured persons some of whom could blow the budget if the value of a benefit is set too high. As it happens, in practice, this is actually a very tiny part of what NICE does and, for it is part of the historical record, it was never something that the government targeted NICE to do. But because the government essentially gives the NHS a budget and lets them spend it, it was the doctors and health economists at NICE who asked themselves the question "how can we evaluate benefits, and what are the limits on we should set so as not to blow the NHS budget. They came up with the idea of QALY and 30000 pounds as a best guestimate of what that figure was. What IPAB will do is hack away at costs with a blunt instrument and only into doctors pay. What NICE does is to go at the problem with a surgeons knife and cut away the useless fat and leave the meat. And by default almost, its "target" has become the medical technology industry which can deliver benefits but seemingly very often at a very high price. So even if we look at the way they work to reduce costs, IPAB and NICE are nothing like one another (IMHO). But then my edits were not going to go into all this.All I was going to do was point to the main roles of the two organization and who sets doctors pay in England. The history lesson above is just for your benefit.::Now what "original research" would that be? my "research" that Doctors pay in England is recommended by the Pay Review Board? I am sorry but that does not need research of any kind, its just common fact. Most adults in England know this. Same with the army and other civil servants. We simply cannot allow David Gratzer's claim that IPAB and NICE are doing the same job to stand unchallenged because it simply is not true. NICE's main job is clinical research and public health promotion, and now safety standards. IPAB does none of these things. That was what I was adding to the article. Simple facts supported by references to allow the readers to decide the question for themselves.

Getting off the topic of my edit and into the real world, of course what Gratzer was trying to equate is something which IPAB has been set up to do (i.e. to make cuts) and something that NICE is perceived to do (which is to put a value on a benefit and ask is the value of the benefit worth the cost given that we have a budget and 57 million insured persons some of whom could blow the budget if the value of a benefit is set too high. As it happens, in practice, this is actually a very tiny part of what NICE does and, for it is part of the historical record, it was never something that the government targeted NICE to do. But because the government essentially gives the NHS a budget and lets them spend it, it was the doctors and health economists at NICE who asked themselves the question "how can we evaluate benefits, and what are the limits on we should set so as not to blow the NHS budget. They came up with the idea of QALY and 30000 pounds as a best guestimate of what that figure was. What IPAB will do is hack away at costs with a blunt instrument and only into doctors pay. What NICE does is to go at the problem with a surgeons knife and cut away the useless fat and leave the meat. And by default almost, its "target" has become the medical technology industry which can deliver benefits but seemingly very often at a very high price. So even if we look at the way they work to reduce costs, IPAB and NICE are nothing like one another (IMHO). But then my edits were not going to go into all this.All I was going to do was point to the main roles of the two organization and who sets doctors pay in England. The history lesson above is just for your benefit.Hauskalainen (talk) 15:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

death panel again

i found your opinion piece here curious. i am not aware most doctors lose money on medicare. could you give me a source where i can read more? there is no one price hospitals charge anyways. i know payments differ at a hospital between whatever insurance company or the uninsured. but i take the largest issue with your claim that "One of the biggest drivers of cost in the US is malpractice." Consider when Atul Gawande went to interview physicians in McAllen TX (2nd most expensive medicare area in the country).

Dr. GAWANDE: Well, so the first argument would be maybe this is just better, and it's what everybody else should be doing, but as I went through the numbers, and they saw what was happening, then the second argument was well, maybe it's malpractice.

DAVIES: Meaning not that they were committing malpractice but that the threat of malpractice lawsuits was driving this.

Dr. GAWANDE: That's right. You know, I give an example. A 40-year-old woman comes in after a fight with her husband, and she has some chest pain after this. It goes away. You do an EKG, and it's normal. Her heart looks normal on the EKG. So now what do you do?

And the answer 10 or 15 years ago, when McAllen was actually at the norm - they became more expensive about 10 years ago - so about 15 years ago they said that you would get a stress test and leave it at that, and even a stress test might be overkill, but that today, it's highly likely that she'd get a stress test, a cardiac ultrasound, a monitor to check the rhythm of her heart and possibly even a cardiac catheterization. And they sort of laughed ruefully about it, but there was a sense that there could be fear of malpractice playing into this, and yet they admitted and pointed out that since the caps came in in Texas - Texas is a state that passed very strict caps that limit lawsuits.

DAVIES: Caps on jury awards you mean, yeah.

Dr. GAWANDE: Caps on jury awards, exactly. Since that passed six years ago, they hadn't seen any reduction. If anything, the pattern of doing more had accelerated, and second of all, El Paso has the same conditions and doesn't have this rate of ordering services, and when one of the other folks there, a surgeon, finally piped and said this is just overuse, and we just have to admit it. And what he was talking about was a tendency to see the revenues behind this, behind what they did, as one of the factors that could drive a tendency to order these kinds of tests.[9] (see transcript).

In other words, how can you separate out the confounding factor of revenue? There also appears very limited empirical basis for your claim. From a study in the Journal of Health Economics:

Given the results of our study, findings from previous research, and statements in the popular media that defensive medicine is extensive and costly, assertions that tort reforms will reduce waste of scarce resources seems, at best, highly premature. The KM (1996) results only apply to related cardiac conditions. The findings on birth outcomes and use of obstetric procedures are mixed. Our results indicate that KM’s findings do not generalize to other reasons for hospital admission. Thus, it seems inappropriate to conclude that tort reforms implemented to date succeed in reducing non-beneficial care as their proponents would have it. On the other hand, the existence of the threat of a lawsuit does not lead to better outcomes as some proponents of the current system would have it either.[10]

Jesanj (talk) 17:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

A liberal talking to the liberal NPR is hardly an opinion which I would suspect to argue otherwise. Your cited study is limited in scope. Look, I am not going to discuss this in detail as my information is from within health care finance. You can choose to believe the following or not (it matters little to me) but this is a fact [11] Here is an article that touches on how individual physicians game the system [12] The health care financial system is extrememly complex, far to complex to go into detail here. Arzel (talk) 01:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Er.. you don't need to be a top flight mathematician to realise that if the AHA went around saying they were making lots of money on Medicare and Medicaid services, what would Medicare do? Wise up Dude. They HAVE to say their members are losing money because they would be idiots not to - and so would those answering the questionnaire. The American government has medical facilities at the VA and knows how much it costs to runs services. If I was a hospital manager and losing money on Medicare patients I'd just stop taking Medicare patients. I could then serve the private insurers better. The reason that it does not happen that way is because Medicare IS profitable business. It's a pity that US does not have many public hospitals running alongside the private ones, nor a public insurer operating alongside all the private ones. Then people would have a real choice. The NHS in England know very well how much to pay the private hospitals for service because it runs all the same services itself and much more besides. In England the private hospitals are mostly "non-profit", but its a acam because the managers move the profits through trading to other entities. No doubt the same happens in the US.Hauskalainen (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the links, I will check them out. That crazy "liberal" Harvard Professor/Rhodes Scholar put it in print too. From the New Yorker.[13] It says about the same thing:

"Some were dubious when I told them that McAllen was the country’s most expensive place for health care. I gave them the spending data from Medicare. In 1992, in the McAllen market, the average cost per Medicare enrollee was $4,891, almost exactly the national average. But since then, year after year, McAllen’s health costs have grown faster than any other market in the country, ultimately soaring by more than ten thousand dollars per person.

“Maybe the service is better here,” the cardiologist suggested. People can be seen faster and get their tests more readily, he said.

Others were skeptical. “I don’t think that explains the costs he’s talking about,” the general surgeon said.

“It’s malpractice,” a family physician who had practiced here for thirty-three years said.

“McAllen is legal hell,” the cardiologist agreed. Doctors order unnecessary tests just to protect themselves, he said. Everyone thought the lawyers here were worse than elsewhere.

That explanation puzzled me. Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Didn’t lawsuits go down?

“Practically to zero,” the cardiologist admitted.

“Come on,” the general surgeon finally said. “We all know these arguments are bullshit. There is overutilization here, pure and simple.” Doctors, he said, were racking up charges with extra tests, services, and procedures.

The surgeon came to McAllen in the mid-nineties, and since then, he said, “the way to practice medicine has changed completely. Before, it was about how to do a good job. Now it is about ‘How much will you benefit?’ ”

For what it is worth, the study you call limited says it is more comprehensive than the most cited article about defensive medicine. Jesanj (talk) 02:09, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Above, you take something to be fact ("this is a fact [14]") that is based on a theory (cost-shifting) that is not widely accepted. Uwe Reinhardt says "It is widely assumed, among both health insurers and the hospital industry, that the more rapidly rising prices paid by private insurers reflect a cost shift from government to the private sector. The theory is that private insurers must compensate with higher prices for the shortfall from actual cost imposed on providers of care by unduly low Medicaid and Medicare payment rates ... With a few exceptions, economists remain skeptical on the validity of the cost-shift theory, although it may operate in some market environments." [15] The quoted words "remain skeptical" link to this post. Jesanj (talk) 17:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The post references this study: doi:10.1111/j.1468-0009.2011.00621.x. It concludes that one should have skepticism towards the document you cite. Jesanj (talk) 18:43, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Arzel. You have new messages at Muboshgu's talk page.
Message added 00:00, 21 January 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Civility

Making unproven accusations against other editors is uncivil.[16] Please see WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. In the future, please focus on the edits, not the editor.   Will Beback  talk  21:56, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I did focus on the edit, you just happened to be the editor that made it. Perhaps gaming was too strong of a term, but it certainly was pointy. Arzel (talk) 00:02, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

When you focus on an edit you ask, "why is there a citation request for this assertion?" When you focus on an editor you ask, "Why did User:A add a citation request? He must be acting in bad faith and pushing a POV." I hope the difference is clear.

I assume that "pointy" refers to WP:POINT. How did I disrupt Wikipedia and what point was I trying to make, in your opinion?   Will Beback  talk 

I believe you citation request to have been retalitory. You used that source to make a statement that while technically true, was somewhat disingenous and not holding with the point that that source was making. I added the "who" because the statement as it stood was nebulous and implied more than the source would claim. You then added the citation request on top of the primary statement, which was backed by the source. If this had been a fly-by tagging it would have been an edit question, but you have been quite involved in this discussion and you obviously have read this source, or at least the parts relating to this discussion. As such, you clearly knew that the source backed up the primary statement. That, to me, is disruptive and not a suitable action for an admin, regardless if you are editing as a "regular". I hope I make myself clear. Arzel (talk) 01:03, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

What I see is you making a sequence of unfounded assumptions about my motives. The statement in question was "The Tea Party movement is often cited as an example of grassroots political activity". I don't see on which page Rasmussen makes the assertion that it is "often cited" as such an example. Can you please point it out to me?   Will Beback  talk  02:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

What I see is you trying to explain your way out and change the issue. If you want to suddenly claim semantics that is your prerogative, but I would note that you did not make such a claim prior to my addition. Arzel (talk) 05:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you don't like me explaining my edit, and you seem to be once again assuming bad faith by characterizing my response to you as "explain your way out and change the issue". The issue here is your response to my edit, so I'm not changing the subject at all. You said that I made a pointy, POV edit because I added a citation request for a statement that did not appear to be supported by the nearest footnote. My citation request was completely valid. I again ask you to prove that it was not.   Will Beback  talk  06:01, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Rasmussen said that the TP is an example of grassroots political activity, not "cited as", or "often cited as". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:46, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The text in question is "The Tea Party movement is often cited as an example of grassroots political activity". Does Rasmussen say that? If not, then it was appropriate to ask for a source for that assertion.   Will Beback  talk  08:04, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Prove that you cared prior. You seem to be looking for a justification after the fact. I will not play your game. Arzel (talk) 19:56, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

There's no game here. You're making serious accusations without justification. Please do not make personal remarks or accusations against other editors on article talk pages. If you have a problem with an editor then user their talk page to discuss it, or one of the other available forums. The only topic for article talk pages is the improvement of the article. Consistent failure to assume good faith or treating topics as a battleground have led to editors being topic- or even site-banned. This is a serious issue, not a game. I hope this won't come up again.   Will Beback  talk  20:51, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Do not threaten me because I fail to agree with your point of view. I could have gone straight to ANI and reported you there, I figured we could resolve our issues here. Now you are trying to turn it back on me. If you have a problem take it to ANI, but do not threaten me again. Arzel (talk) 01:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't care about your point of view. It's just your behavior. Please don't make unfounded accusations about other editors on article talk pages or assume bad faith.   Will Beback  talk  01:28, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

My behavior was a reflection of your actions. You are right, I should know better. Arzel (talk) 01:38, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Tea Party again

I agree that Mayer is not a reliable source except for her own opinions, but she is a notable gossip reporter <redacted>, so her opinions may be notable as opinions, provided that don't mention facts about living persons. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:43, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how her opinion is notable in this situation. It seems more like those that don't like Koch think her opinion is notable because it furthers a rumor against Koch. To me this looks like a classic BLP violation. We should not be feeding speculative rumors about anyone. Arzel (talk) 20:00, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

thanks

for the recent revert at death panel. it appears that editor is out of control. Jesanj (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

That is probably putting it lightly. Arzel (talk) 04:12, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Death panel

If we move the "death panel" argument away from what Palin was talking about (a board set up to euthanise people when they are deemed to have no remaining value to society) to some things which do real good such as bodies which try to help patients by making sure that their doctor is using best available practice and not wasting their money paying for things which yield poor value, then surely we have to include the real death panels that really do kill people. I think we have a reliable source that got its judgment spot on. The U.S. may not get to pull the plug on grandma but it surely does insert the plug for Old Sparky to kill some people (or via hypodermic needle or whatever the current fashion is). Of the 34 members of the OECD, only the US and Japan still uses the barbaric practice of legal executions.Hauskalainen (talk) 01:56, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't even try to validate such absurd logic. It is clear you have a strong agenda to push, and WP is not the place to do so. Arzel (talk) 04:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

what absurd logic? That the American Justice system kills people? That NICE does not kill people? It seems perfectly logical to me! Arzel, it is not me that has an agenda to push, it is you. And I can demonstrate it with many examples.Hauskalainen (talk) 04:39, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that according to you, you are arguing the idea that IPAB and NICE might be death panels IS NOT a fringe theory, but that IT IS fringe theory to suppose that that juries hearing murder cases in capital punishment states might be regarded as a death panel.

Just suppose that the American public were asked in a survey to imagine that they had been appointed to one of the following

1. a panel of people whose job it is to control the growth of Medicare spending
2. a panel of people whose job it is to ensure that Medicare funds are used to deliver maximum medical benefit for all seniors
3. a jury panel hearing a murder case in a state where there is a death penalty

And that they were then asked "On which of these panels would you feel you had been appointed to a "death panel"?

You seem to be saying that the American people would choose 1 and 2 in droves and reject 3, and I would say the complete opposite. I have to say, I don't share your lack of faith in the judgment of the American people. Hauskalainen (talk) 08:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't share your obtuseness. "Death Panel" as it relates to healthcare is a metaphor. It is nothing like a jury deciding on the guilt of someone that would be sentenced to death. Arzel (talk) 14:54, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

That is your opinion. Not everyone will share it. I think I'd be sitting on a death panel if a decision of mine could lead someone to someone's death.Hauskalainen (talk) 07:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikiproject: United States

Hello, Arzel! We are looking for editors to join WikiProject United States, an outreach effort which aims to support development of United States related articles in Wikipedia. We thought you might be interested, and hope that you will join us. Thanks!!!

Rapier (talk) 22:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Sean. Thanks for the invite and info. Arzel (talk) 15:11, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Welcome to the project. --Kumioko (talk) 15:47, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Hauskalainen

I have reported Hauskalainen at the admin notice board. Here is the link [17]. Intermittentgardener (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Overcoming bias in science articles

Hi, I saw your "be careful" and was wondering if you'd like to work with me on finding a way to restore neutrality to some biased articles. I've seen an arbcom notice forbidding the deletion of "well referenced edits that promote a viewpoint", or words to that effect. I believe the ruling was intended to support the notion that a neutral article is one which presents all significant points of view, even when we Wikipedian contributors have formed a consensus which repudiates a minority viewpoint.

Do you agree that minority viewpoints should be included in articles about scientific controversies? If so, do you have any ideas about working together to overcome contributor bias? --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:42, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

BLP?

What possible violation could it be of BLP to mention the widely-reported fact that the pranker impersonated David H. Koch? Don't want to sound rude, but this seems like very strange reasoning... AnonMoos (talk) 18:10, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Walkers responses to Murphy's baited questions under the guise of impersonating a living person while recording the conversation would be easily presented out of context. I am not saying that the event can't be reported, but reporting quotes from Walker under these circumstances may not be entirely neutral. The responses that Walker made were certainly not obtained under good faith of any kind. This was a form of entrapment by Walker. I just don't think we should quote walker from these highly questionable tactics. Arzel (talk) 02:05, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

However, in your edit summaries, you seemed to be claiming that mentioning the name of impersonee David H. Koch would be a BLP -- something which unfortunately makes very little sense (if any). AnonMoos (talk) 04:09, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Little confused. I have not made any mention of Koch during my recent edits summaries. However I do try to make concise points in my edit summaries since they are limited, it is possible that my summary is not as clear as I intended. You will have to help me out and point to those which you are referring. Arzel (talk) 05:58, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Nate Silver

I hope I can end this dispute here. Silver, as well as being a statistician, gained notoriety for predicting the 2008 presidential and 2010 congressional elections with high accuracy through polls so clearly he is a polling expert.

That aside, the poll did have a bias since it asked whether "firemen and policemen" should be allowed to go on strike which is misleading since they're exempt from the budget proposals (meaning the idea of them going on strike is completely unlikely and planted through the poll) and is furthermore illegal. This unlikely and illegal scenario was asked right before "do you agree more with the governor or the union for teachers and other state employees?"

At any rate, the idea that Nate Silver isn't a polling expert is factually false and if it would be a waste of time taking this dispute any further. --CartoonDiablo (talk) 20:23, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I think people that I know that actually are statisticians would take issue with him being called a statistician given he doesn't have an advanced degree which the profession is determined. That said, he does have quite a bit of statistical knowledge. However, understanding statistics is not the same as understanding the psychology regarding polling questions, and AFAIK he has never been classified as such. His opinion of the statistical methodology may have some merit, but his knowledge of statistics does not make him an expert in polling questions anymore than it makes you an expert in polling questions. Arzel (talk) 02:19, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Not having an advanced degree? So what? Neither did Francis Galton. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:13, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what the rules were in the 1800's but today, the title of Statistician is a professional title. Which nominally means advanced training ie, advanced degrees.

Arzel (talk) 20:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Really? What country are you speaking of? In mine, you are wrong on both counts. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

You may want to have a word with the US Department of Labor and tell them they don't know what they are talking about here. Arzel (talk) 22:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

If I can step in here: Nate Silver is one of the top experts in the polling field. He's very very good at what he does, and only rarely mixes in political bias. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:02, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Understanding polling statistics is hardly the same as understanding polling question methodology. I don't know of any evidence that Silver is an expert in polling question methodology, they usually have degrees in Psychology, Sociology, Behavior Sciences and the like. Arzel (talk) 22:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

No, usually they have experience, which he does; degrees in many fields consist of listening to people with experience, especially in the applied social sciences. In any case, his argument is a claim of fact. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

So, since you agree with him it is a fact? Ha. If Silver had questioned the oversampling in the NYT poll (something that he actually should have the ability to do) I probably wouldn't question his bias. However, he would rather criticize Rassmussen over quetion methodology (where he has shown no expertise)...so forgive me if fail to find any merit to your arguement. Arzel (talk) 00:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I do not forgive you; I said "claim of fact" - an unsubtle distinction. Nor do I acknowledge your expertise - even in this dubious environment, you do not appear to meet your own standard. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I should have expected you to ignore my statement and a level minor personal attack...how very progressive of you. Arzel (talk) 23:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Uh, WP:OR disallows us to use your expertise regardless. Magog the Ogre (talk) 07:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe I was using my expertise to say that Silver is unqualified to discuss statistical aspects. I have only said that he is not an expert in polling question methodology and there is no evidence to point to the contrary. Understanding statistical methodology is not the same as understanding polling question methodology. Arzel (talk) 18:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

FYI I mostly come down on your side of the debate on the issue, and I still think Silver had a very good point and is a reliable source. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Restoring Honor

Hi Arzel, hope you're doing well. I just wanted to thank you for your help during my whole block fiasco, I really appreciated it. I would also like to ask you to get involved again in the Restoring Honor rally article again if you're willing. Thankfully we are all working together amicably, so if you're interested, feel free to jump back in. Thanks! NYyankees51 (talk) 15:45, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Wish I could have been more help. I have been on the side with the RHr article, but I am still paying attention to it. You are right, it does appear to be a bit more amicable right now. Arzel (talk) 04:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

1 RR at Barack Obama

I hope you realise that the Barack Obama article is under 1RR restriction. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 20:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I guess I am not suprised, but since I have made only one revert I really don't have anything to worry about. Arzel (talk) 20:30, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Please accept this invite to join the Conservatism WikiProject, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to conservatism. Simply click here to accept! Lionel (talk) 03:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

RM

Jewish background of mother questioned. Chesdovi (talk) 15:02, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

April 2011 Newsletter for WikiProject United States

The April 2011 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
--Kumioko (talk) 17:05, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

May 2011 Newsletter for WikiProject United States

The May 2011 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
.--Kumioko (talk) 01:47, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Page protection

Thanks for your note. I just put on the semi-protection to deal with the recurring vandalism by IPs. the article was under semi-protection before, then that was superseded by the proposed changes test. That was finally removed today and there was more vandalism immediately. The article is still open for editing by yourself and other confirmed editors.   Will Beback  talk  00:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I realize that, and I am not saying it shouldn't be semi protected, just that it probably should be a different admin that does it. Arzel (talk) 03:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If we all agree that it should be protected for vandalism then it's permissible for an involved admin to add it. If you'd like to ask another admin to protect it I won't object.   Will Beback  talk  03:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism, yes. But what you reverted was not vandalism. You made a change to your preferred position and then semi-protected the page. That is not permissible. Arzel (talk) 14:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I regard the deletion of sourced material without an explanation to be vandalism, especially when done by an IP editor, and I revert it many times a day. The page isn't locked, and any confirmed editor, such as yourself, can still edit it (so long as there's a consensus for contentious edits). So it's not an issue of fully protecting an article on a preferred version, which you're right would be inappropriate.   Will Beback  talk  18:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Barack Obama discussion page

Regarding these talk page comments[18] please do not use the talk page of a high traffic article to refer to WP as a "cesspool" or editors you disagree with of being a "protectorate" that whitewashes political articles. Note that the Obama article and talk page are under "article probation" (see the header area of the talk page on that), and accusing editors who disagree with your efforts to add negative information about a politiciann of whitewashing the encyclopedia for political purposes is an accusation of bad faith of the sort that lead to article probation in the first place. If you have a specific proposal to discuss for improving the article, please engage in the consensus-building discussion relating to the content of the article, not the editors working on it. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 20:21, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

wow, have cesspool and protectorate really offended you that much? back in the day, years before you were an editor here, this would have been laughable. i am sad to see wp has become so sensitive, pass the tissue. Darkstar1st (talk) 21:17, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The truth tends to hurt the most. I must laugh at Wikidemon's comments however. When the multitude of liberal editors insist on trashing conservatives those that try to abide by BLP policies are accused of whitewashing and a lack of good faith. Arzel (talk) 00:26, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Laugh all you want here, but please heed the caution and try to keep discussion productive on the talk page. Making things into a liberal versus conservative issue is decidedly unproductive. There has been an arbitration case, article probation, hundreds of accounts blocked, and a few dozen administrative actions over the Obama article. Accusing perceived ideological opponents of whitewashing and ownership is at the heart of the trouble and a favorite refrain of the many socks so I'm not particularly keen to banter jokingly over that. No tissue necessary, just a collaborative approach. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:31, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

June 2011 Newsletter for WikiProject United States

The June 2011 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
--Kumioko (talk) 17:10, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

US National Archives collaboration

United States National Archives WikiProject

Would you like to help improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to the National Archives and its incredible collection? This summer, the National Archives—which houses some of America's most important historical documents—is hosting me as its Wikipedian in Residence, and I have created WP:NARA to launch these efforts. There are all sorts of tasks available for any type of editor, whether you're a writer, organizer, gnome, coder, or image guru. The National Archives is making its resources available to Wikipedia, so help us forge this important relationship! Please sign up and introduce yourself. Dominic·t 15:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Mediation around Abortion articles location

After the latest move request has landed up with about equal numbers for both sides I've started a mediation request. Please indicate there if you wish to participate. Thanks. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:45, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

A proposal has been made to rename the two abortion articles to completely new names, namely 'Opposition to legalized abortion' and 'Support for legalized abortion'. The idea, which is located at the Mediation Cabal, is currently open for opinions. Your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:22, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Your efforts here (Wikipedia) are greatly appreciated; perhaps more than you may know. Stay calm, and continue your great work. Cheers. — Ched :  ?  08:41, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Besides ... I had to try that "Wikilove" button just once. :) — Ched :  ?  08:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Completely new abortion proposal and mediation

In light of the seemingly endless disputes over their respective titles, a neutral mediator has crafted a proposal to rename the two major abortion articles (pro-life/anti-abortion movement, and pro-choice/abortion rights movement) to completely new names. The idea, which is located here, is currently open for opinions. As you have been a contributor in the past to at least one of the articles, your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

The hope is that, if a consensus can be reached on the article titles, the energy that has been spent debating the titles of the articles here and here can be better spent giving both articles some much needed improvement to their content. Please take some time to read the proposal and weigh in on the matter. Even if your opinion is simple indifference, that opinion would be valuable to have posted.

To avoid concerns that this notice might violate WP:CANVASS, this posting is being made to every non-anon editor who has edited either page (or either page's respective talk page) since 1 July 2010, irrespective of possible previous participation at the mediation page. HuskyHuskie (talk) 20:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

July 2011 Newsletter for WikiProject United States

The July 2011 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
--Kumioko (talk) 01:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

August 2011

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to blank out or remove portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did at Michele Bachmann, you may be blocked from editing. You have violated the 3RR within a 24 hour period. Please discuss your dispute on the talk page and refrain from deletions. Dinkytown talk 05:07, 18 August 2011 (UTC) Dinkytown talk 05:07, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I made 2 reverts. This was my first edit and I made one and two reverts...and I started the conversation. Learn how to count. Arzel (talk) 05:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

“White vs Black” culture debate on “Flash mob” page

Hi there, I noticed your discussion with other users on the flash mob about the problems with connecting race to violence with regards to violent flash mobbing. I completely agree with you. But it seems there are a few more users who are a bit obsessed with their own need to constantly point out the Philadelphia riots involved black kids and not much else. Apparently I—and others—don’t have the “balls” and are “pussies” for avoiding mention of race int the article. Any help, assistance or support you can provide in policing the article or perhaps explaining your POV to others on the talk page is appreciated. --SpyMagician (talk) 03:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

September 2011 Newsletter for WikiProject United States

The September 2011 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
--Kumioko (talk) 04:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Temperature History

Hi Arzel, Can't really discuss general GW stuff of the GW talk page but if you are interested I'm always keen to hear the other side of the argument on my talk page. It makes editing hard if editors have very different views on a topic so I think some background discussion helps and at least one and probably both parties benefit....--IanOfNorwich (talk) 16:38, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

File:PNHP poster.jpg

For your patience

Thank you for keeping me on the straight and narrow with regards to proper sourcing of facts. Although fast-moving politically contentious articles such as Occupy Wall Street can sometimes create tensions, it is a pleasure to know that there are others who care about making sure we only provide reliably sourced information. Please accept this single payer health care poster from Physicians for a National Health Program about the United States National Health Care Act as a symbol of my grateful appreciation. Dualus (talk) 14:38, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

People's Library merge debate

Hello Arzel,

The opposition in the merge discussion is rising. Would appreciate your continued support for pro-merge. Thanks--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC))

Can we work it out here?

Hi, I don't know if you added the funding section initially, but when I removed it you re-added it. As perhaps the most pro-OWS person who edits the article, I'm assuring you that our donations are doing fine and if you make the article too "pro-OWS" it will make editors like myself (and you? guessing you are pro-ows also?) be put under the microscope. We get donations from other non-profit 501(c)(3) and we're strictly avoiding "public donations" because once you accept donations from everyone, they start to have a "voice" so to speak. Our direction and focus gets us our needed funding. If you want to help, just keep the article favorable for OWS, but don't make anyone think we're spamming the article to drive donations. That will get us blocked, and there's even an ironic chance that having a bigger piggy bank will cause more freeloaders to try and get their hands in the cookie jar. If you want to discuss it specifically on the talk page of OWS, then I'll have to be more brief and to the point, depending on how much you want to know... 02:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Basically (without trying to be too specific) when you accept something from somebody, you owe them. Once you have too many people giving you money, they start to think you owe them something. As it is now, the protesters are pretty much our sheep. We want people to give their time and to come occupy the campsites we designate and show up to the events we hold. It's been shown that if people donate $20, then they think they don't have to show up in person as much. We'd rather have an extra body on the ground, rather than $20. The donations we get our low volume, and high amounts. Once people start giving OWS money, it becomes less focused on the message. What is our one demand? Occupy Wall Street! 완젬스 (talk) 02:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

December 2011 Newsletter for WikiProject United States

The December 2011 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
--Kumioko (talk) 03:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Your editing of Real Clear Politics

The dispute raised in my mind a more general question of Wikipedia procedure. I've started a thread at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment#What is proper procedure when RfC result is ignored?. I didn't mention you by name but I'm alerting you here in case you wish to comment there. JamesMLane t c 19:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Bill O'Reilly (political commentator) is "widely considered a conservative"

That is a claim being made about him on his BLP. I see you have done research on this person and Fox News, and I was wondering if you have ever seen any reliable sources mention this claim? The two footnoted sources do not make the claim he is "widely considered a conservative". They only describe him as "conservative." The internet sources that do mention this claim are merely copying and using this wiki BLP as a content source. This is probably because when they Google "Bill O'Reilly conservative", this wiki BLP pops up as #1 match on Google search. It is my opinion that this unverified claim is pure original research which relies upon great synthesis of two unsupporting sources to push a point of view deemed to be harmful and upsetting to O'Reilly. Unfortunately, the powerful voice of wikipedia is standing alone in making and spreading this unverified claim which I believe violates BLP rules, especially since O'Reilly says he is an 'independent' and vehemently objects to being labeled as a conservative or a Republican. -iLyekka (talk) 13:59, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I have started a discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard

If you wish to respond to this, please go there and comment. Thanks --iLyekka (talk) 17:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC)