Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gaelic games: Difference between revisions
→Article and category naming conventions: About to close this discussion |
Results of categorisation discussion |
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== Article and category naming conventions == |
== Article and category naming conventions == |
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{{archivetop| |
{{archivetop|Thank you everyone for a calm and productive discussion. I have summarised the results lower down this page, with links onwards to the IMOS talk page for final agreement. Please do not make any changes to category names until folks at IMOS have had a chance to comment. [[User:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown</font>]] [[User talk:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]] 22:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)}} |
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Users may be aware that an editor has, in recent months, changed the names of scores of GAA categories and articles without engaging in discussion at the respective talk pages, even when expressly invited to do so, and has reverted any reversions of that change. After many, at times acrimonious, exchanges an admin has insisted that an attempt be made to resolve matters by consensus at this page, and in the interim, has threatened to block edits on these matters. The GAA articles and categories are thus effectively frozen in different styles. I begin this discussion by seeking consensus on two issues. |
Users may be aware that an editor has, in recent months, changed the names of scores of GAA categories and articles without engaging in discussion at the respective talk pages, even when expressly invited to do so, and has reverted any reversions of that change. After many, at times acrimonious, exchanges an admin has insisted that an attempt be made to resolve matters by consensus at this page, and in the interim, has threatened to block edits on these matters. The GAA articles and categories are thus effectively frozen in different styles. I begin this discussion by seeking consensus on two issues. |
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'''[[:Category:Antrim GAA club championships ]]''' and '''31 other similar categories''' (all sub-categories of [[:Category:GAA County Championships]]), which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for renaming from <code>X GAA ''club championships''</code> to the title <code>X GAA ''County Championships''</code>. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at '''[[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_February_2#County_Championships|the category's entry]]''' on the [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion|Categories for discussion]] page. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 22:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC) |
'''[[:Category:Antrim GAA club championships ]]''' and '''31 other similar categories''' (all sub-categories of [[:Category:GAA County Championships]]), which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for renaming from <code>X GAA ''club championships''</code> to the title <code>X GAA ''County Championships''</code>. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at '''[[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_February_2#County_Championships|the category's entry]]''' on the [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion|Categories for discussion]] page. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 22:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC) |
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:See also a slightly-related proposal at [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 February 2#County_Football_Championships_by_year]]. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> |
:See also a slightly-related proposal at [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 February 2#County_Football_Championships_by_year]]. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> |
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==Conclusion of GAA categorisation discussion== |
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First of all, thank you everyone for a carefully and civilly conducted discussion. This arose from a rather less ordered [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive784#Category_dispute_on_GAA_articles|AN/I discussion]] which I closed with the request to discuss the naming and categorising conventions here. |
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I judge that proposals 1, 2,4,5 and 7 had an undeniable consensus or even unanimity. Proposal 3 was in my opinion also carried by consensus. That leaves proposal 6. I was persuaded by the arguments against making an exception for Derry GAA and there was a clear majority against the proposal. However it was a less than 2:1 majority, there were a total of only 17 editors voting and the subject touches on one of the most sensitive naming policies on Wikipedia. So I propose to refer on the decision on whether or not an exception should be made for GAA categories relating to this county. I will post a request at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles|the IMOS talk page]] summarising the agreed results and asking for a decision about the Derry/Derry GAA problem. |
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While I think the decision here on proposals 1-5 and 7 is uncontroversial, please do NOT start implementing this until folks at IMOS have had their say. I said at AN/I that I would block anyone making changes to categories before final agreed consensus and that still holds good. I will summarise below the agreed proposals and provide a link to the IMOS talk page discussion. The agreed, defeated and no-consensus proposals will be copied to the IMOS talk page. |
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'''Agreed proposals''' |
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* Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X Intermediate Football Championship", not ""X GAA Intermediate Football Championship", unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition. |
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* Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not include the (transient) sponsor name, unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition. |
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* Titles of categories of people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X hurlers", not "X GAA hurlers"; "X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers". |
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* Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should be categorised according to the county for which the player played, i.e. "Category: X GAA hurlers" or "Category: X hurlers" should include people who have hurled for X, regardless of their place of birth or residence. Players who have played for more than one county should be included in both county categories. Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not be categorised according to the county in which the player was born or the county or counties in which they resided during their playing career. |
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* In any of the above cases, the county in question should be the GAA county, not the "current administrative" county, i.e. "Tipperary", not "South Tipperary"; "Dublin", not "Fingal". |
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'''Defeated proposal''' |
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* The scope of the category structure "Sportspeople from County Foo" (e.g. Category:Sportspeople from County Galway) should be defined as "Notable sportspeople who were born in the Irish county of Foo". This structure to be independent of the GAA county structure. So a person can be born in one county but may play for a different (or multiple) GAA county (e.g. Tony Reddin). Furthermore, the structure to permit the creation of categories for all modern administrative counties (e.g. Fingal, South Dublin and North Tipperary) as well as the "traditional" counties. |
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'''No-consensus proposal''' |
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* Derry GAA should be exempted from all the above proposals, and IMoS should be amended to clarify as such. |
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Thank you again for a calmly conducted discussion on a topic where I know feelings were running high. [[User:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown</font>]] [[User talk:Kim Dent-Brown|<font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]] 22:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:53, 6 February 2013
Create Centenary of the Gaelic Athletic Association to a standard at least that of Centenary of the Easter Rising. Add to Template:Gaelic Athletic Association. Get President of the Gaelic Athletic Association to FL/GA status.
Review edits to Larry McCarthy (sports administrator) from 8 August 2022 onwards. Editor seems to have a connection to McCarthy. Category:All-Ireland Senior Club Camogie Championship seasons has the year at the end? Templates with red links/Hurling
It is unclear if the following Cork players meet the notability criteria: It is unclear if the following non-Cork players meet the notability criteria: |
POV edit war brewing
There is an edit war brewing at Gaelic Athletic Association where two editors with a clear anti-GAA agenda are extrapolating all manner of novel interpretations of rules and obscure sources to put the most negative spin possible on the GAA's rule book. Please have a look at the talk page. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 00:44, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- What edit war are you talking about? Talk page discussion is hardly a POV edit war. Whilst you are expanding the situation to includeevery single discussion on the articles talk page. In one particular discussion you deliberately influenced it by canvassing editors as you weren't getting your way. Your telling of the situation here is also highly POV and a clear attempt to yet again influence any debate by posting a very loose explaination that at best aims to preform any opinions and thoughts into any editors heads before they even get to the article. In fact it reads more like a call to arms to defend to the GAA rather than an honest attempt to strive for neutrality. Mabuska (talk) 00:59, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Do you understand the meaning of "brewing"? You were the one who sent me over here, you told me to take it to the appropriate wikiproject page. My tone is not POV, I'm warning everyone here that there are editors who are pushing POV and people here might want to head on over and make sure that NPOV is adhered to. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 02:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Do you understand what an edit-war is? Seeing as i haven't been involved in one and am participating on the articles talk page and have no intentions on starting an edit-war, there is no edit-war brewing. Also i never sent you here, i told you to take it to WikiProject Ireland and the Neutral POV Board - you came here yourself. There is nothing wrong in raising the issue here other than the possibility of bias - the main problem however is your pov-laden message. Naturally you wouldn't see your tone as POV, most people usually don't. Mabuska (talk) 11:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- You did send me here. You sent me to the "appropriate wikiproject page" and then complained when I came here. Stop misrepresenting me, stop the ad-hominem attacks and start contributing something to wikipedia like you said you'd do. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 16:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Whatever Eamonnca1, believe your own hype. Mabuska (talk) 21:39, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- You did send me here. You sent me to the "appropriate wikiproject page" and then complained when I came here. Stop misrepresenting me, stop the ad-hominem attacks and start contributing something to wikipedia like you said you'd do. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 16:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Do you understand what an edit-war is? Seeing as i haven't been involved in one and am participating on the articles talk page and have no intentions on starting an edit-war, there is no edit-war brewing. Also i never sent you here, i told you to take it to WikiProject Ireland and the Neutral POV Board - you came here yourself. There is nothing wrong in raising the issue here other than the possibility of bias - the main problem however is your pov-laden message. Naturally you wouldn't see your tone as POV, most people usually don't. Mabuska (talk) 11:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Do you understand the meaning of "brewing"? You were the one who sent me over here, you told me to take it to the appropriate wikiproject page. My tone is not POV, I'm warning everyone here that there are editors who are pushing POV and people here might want to head on over and make sure that NPOV is adhered to. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 02:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
More eyes needed
Could uninvolved editors who are part of this project give their opinion on this section re sectarianism. Mo ainm~Talk 12:18, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- More eyes needed? Very curious title Mo ainm. Anyways to clarify for anyone - the section in discussion is also to do with nationalism and notable rules, not just sectarianism. Hence i renamed the discussion section to a more appropriate title which means we need to repost the link: [1]. Mabuska (talk) 14:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- My link is good please don't refactor other editors comments as it is seen as vandalism. Also editors do not need a synopsis from you they can read. Mo ainm~Talk 16:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Never edited your link, i provided my own. Hardly vandalising to provide a more accurate section heading than the very misleading and erroneous one that was given. Mabuska (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- My link is good please don't refactor other editors comments as it is seen as vandalism. Also editors do not need a synopsis from you they can read. Mo ainm~Talk 16:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Can someone head over the Athletic Grounds and lend me a hand? I've expanded what I can but it needs a little bit more work. Also, can anyone in the area nip down there and get a photo of the place to include in the article? Thanks. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 22:15, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
New stub categories
Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gaelic_games#Stub_templates, footballers and hurlers to follow soon Gnevin (talk) 23:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Gaelic Games Ireland Map - Dublin
Hi guys. Due to Dublin's recent success in the hurling, I've noticed they are now declared as a dual county on their wiki page. So, I went about adjusting the map below. However, I tried colouring Dublin in using the newest version of MS Paint. I obviously haven't done it right as all the other counties coloured in, in green are done so in some sort of latice colour patern. Anyone know how to do it correctly ? ManfromDelmonte (talk) 07:48, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'm going to nominate this for deletion per as WP:OR Gnevin (talk) 19:24, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- A bit harsh ? Each county page template states wether the county is hurling/football or dual county dominated as is. ManfromDelmonte (talk) 21:30, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- They probably shouldn't make such cut and dry statement. They should be considered by some and a references Gnevin (talk) 21:38, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- A bit harsh ? Each county page template states wether the county is hurling/football or dual county dominated as is. ManfromDelmonte (talk) 21:30, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
2011 All-Ireland Senior Football Championship Final
2011 All-Ireland Senior Football Championship Final selected for discussion at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#September 18. They go on the Wikipedia front page in the top corner. Somebody who knows about it might want to know that. --86.40.104.77 (talk) 17:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello! I've recently run across this article and its corresponding AfD. The article was written by a new editor and appears to be written in a very colloquial/essay-like manner. It's sourced and from what I can tell, is about the history of Limerick GAA. I think the members of this Wikiproject may be able to understand the article better than probably anyone else so I thought I'd come here and ask if anyone can take a look at the article and respond in the AfD regarding the subject of the article and also let us know if there's salvageable content in the article. I would hate to lose content due to lack of knowledge of sport in Ireland. Thanks for your time. OlYeller21Talktome 22:07, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Notability criteria
Following on from above, re Treaty Sarsfields, could this project work out notability criteria for GAA clubs? That might prevent further tagging for speedy deletion of new articles about clubs, and seems necessary since the standard sports notability criteria are focussed heavily on individuals and are not really any help for dealing with GAA clubs. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 21:22, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Borrowing from other codes (rubgy) A Senior County championship or notable current or past members is clear indication of notability Gnevin (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Navbox improvements
Per WP:HLIST (more details in this signpost article), a group of us are improving the accessibility, standards-compliance and speed of rendering of navboxes, using a script, and with a Bot requested. However, some of your navboxes aren't suitable for conversion by those tools, as they use a different structure. I've converted one manually - please help by converting others. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Notability
Would any of the following be considered notable for their Gaelic football or hurling activities? Alan Coomey Brian Currane Brian Shortall Cathal Corr Cian Quigley David Stynes Derek Mulligan Diarmuid Griffin Donal Boylan Fearghal Purcell Fergal Bradshaw Joe Cunnane John Lack O'Sullivan Liam O'Connor (Irish footballer) Michael Currane Roch Hanmore They are all included in Category:Irish players of Australian rules football but all appear to not meet WP:GNG or WP:NSPORTS for their Australian rules football exploits. Hack (talk) 08:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- David Stynes,Donal Boylan , Fearghal Purcell play(ed) at Senior level so yes. Everyone else no Gnevin (talk) 11:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- just picked up on a few articles listed above proposed for deletion and I cant se why they fail to meet notability reasons given for their deletion. Maybe you know the reasons for each one but it would be useful to share that with others. Can someone please oppose/support those articles listed under Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland/Article alerts. Thanks DubhEire (talk) 13:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- Surely the Aussie rule players are WP:NSPORTS notable for their role in the Ireland national Australian rules football team? I presume that international matches are the highest level of Australian rules football. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Not really, the GAA has international also but like the AFL they aren't considered major. Internationals don't get a mention on Australian_rules_football Gnevin (talk) 09:38, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yep, none of these articles go close to meeting WP:GNG such is the low level of their achievements. Hack (talk) 12:14, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Not really, the GAA has international also but like the AFL they aren't considered major. Internationals don't get a mention on Australian_rules_football Gnevin (talk) 09:38, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Articles proposed for deletion
Many GAA articles are now being proposed for deletion. While some are poorly sourced - I will accept some blame here, the main question is their notability. I do feel that it is important to list Junior, Intermediate, Minor, etc. if we have the data at hand. I believe these are intrinsic to understanding the GAA and Gaelic games. Pmunited (talk) 17:24, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- List here while some shouldn't be deleted, you can't argue with the prod. Some have gone years with out RS and other issues. Gnevin (talk) 13:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Cleanup listing
Are members of this project aware of toolserver's CleanupListing bot which lists articles in needs of attention which are within the scope of a WikiProject? This project's Cleanup List is at http://toolserver.org/~svick/CleanupListing/CleanupListing.php?project=Gaelic%20Games
The summary at the top of the current listing says:
This is a cleanup listing for WikiProject Gaelic Games generated on 11 February 2012, 11:01:34 UTC.
Of the 5554 articles in this project 3595 or 64.7 % are marked for cleanup, with 5541 issues in total.
Article alerts shows lots of PRODs or AFDs of articles within the scope of this project. It seems to me that unless this project starts some sort of systematic cleanup, then many more deletions are likely. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- The cleanup listing is also available broken down by category at http://toolserver.org/~svick/CleanupListing/CleanupListingByCat.php?project=Gaelic_games. It is worth noting that 2493 of the 5541 issues are regarding 'Persondata templates without short description parameter'. Teester (talk) 21:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- A bot run maybe possible to sort that issue Gnevin (talk) 09:30, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Canadian GAA
Please be advised that a discussion is open on Canadian GAA on a proposed new lead paragraph. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:33, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Category:Leinster GAA
Category:Leinster GAA, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Merge comment needed
Please comment at Talk:Muskerry D O N D E groovily Talk to me 04:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Can you have a look please
Talk:Gaelic_football#.22Gah.22 Gnevin (talk) 08:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Camogie players from XXXX
What is the scope of the various county level categories like Category:Louth camogie players? Is it for people who were born in County Louth who may or may not have played camogie for Louth GAA? Or is it for people who have played camogie for Louth GAA who may or may not have been born in County Louth? While there will usually be a lot of overlap between birth place and playing place, it is not necessarily so. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- All those should be bot renamed in be X GAA Hurlers/Footballers/Camogie player Gnevin (talk) 15:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- An excellent point - in my view, it should be the GAA county for which they have played, or in which they have played if they are notable club players who have not played at inter-county level. The geographical boundaries of most GAA counties map very closely, but not precisely, to current or former administrative counties, and where there is a difference in a GAA article the GAA meaning of county should take precedence. This has direct relevance to the open CFD discussion as to whether various County Derry GAA categories such as Category:Gaelic Athletic Association clubs in County Londonderry should be replaced with categories referring to County Derry, which is the only name that the GAA county has ever had. Unfortunately the discussion has to date had only a few contributors, mostly people who have engaged elsewhere in the Derry/Londonderry debates. It would be good to hear from a few new voices. Brocach (talk) 19:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Down navigational box inconsistencies
- Located inconsistencies with two navigational boxes concerning teams from Down is anyone understands why.
- Template:Down Hurling Team 2005 claims to be the "2009 All-Ireland Under-21 Football Runners Up"
- Template:Down Minor Football Team 1987 claims to be "2005 All-Ireland Under-21 Football Championship Runners Up"
- Someone might want to check why this is.
- Restored to last known good version . Gnevin (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Category:Gaelic games governing bodies in Northern Ireland
Category:Gaelic games governing bodies in Northern Ireland, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for deletion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:13, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
IMOS proposal
A proposal on the use of Derry GAA naming conventions has been made at the talk page of Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles#Derry_GAA. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:32, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I have rescued this from the speedy-deletion queue (he had been confused with his son Billy Joe), added a couple of references including a splendid photograph, and tidied it up a bit, but it needs more work. JohnCD (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- A bit more work done, but sourcing needs to be improved. Brocach (talk) 17:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Renaming of many GAA articles
Are editors happy with the campaign by Laurel Lodged to rename, without any discussion, many GAA pages to insert "GAA" after the name of the relevant county? Thus:
- Antrim Minor Football Championship was moved to Antrim GAA Minor Football Championship
- Antrim Senior Football Championship Antrim GAA Senior Football Championship
- Antrim Senior Hurling Championship was moved to Antrim GAA Senior Hurling Championship
and so on, and on, and on...
Laurel Lodged has past form on renaming swathes of articles without consultation, but in this case it seems to be particularly pointless - who other than the GAA organises hurling championships? Brocach (talk) 17:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- You're wating your time here Brocach. Nothing but tumbleweed passing this project. But for the record, what about that GAA County Board known as London GAA? If the word GAA was removed from the title, would you recognise it? Which of the following are Gaelin Football and which Association Football (no cheating now): London Intermediate Football Championship, London Intermediate Cup, London Senior Cup, London Senior Football Championship, London Challenge Cup. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:48, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- If I'm "wating" my time here I might as well just revert, but I prefer to allow discussion. You have not changed London to London GAA - as you know, the wrecking you have done has been at articles below GAA county level. I don't recognise any "Gaelin Football" items among the titles you mention but as a former member of London GAA I do of course know the names of London Gaelic football competitions. Brocach (talk) 00:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Discussion would be nice . It would also be nice if the process was completed. There is stuff all over the place now Gnevin (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- The solution is to revert the many title changes made by Laurel Lodged without discussion. No-one asked for all of these articles to be renamed to insert "GAA", when none of the competitions contain "GAA" in their names. The reasoning subsequently advanced is spurious: no-one else runs hurling competitions, and Laurel hasn't come up with a single instance of any other GAA competition name that is identical to a non-GAA competition, so that one article name or the other needs to be changed; he/she appears to have renamed all these articles 'just in case' any confusion might arise. Even if such an example could be found, it doesn't follow that it is always the GAA article that should change. Unfortunately, the dozens of changes made by Laurel can only be reversed by an admin (with time to spare). Brocach (talk) 17:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Discussion would be nice . It would also be nice if the process was completed. There is stuff all over the place now Gnevin (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- If I'm "wating" my time here I might as well just revert, but I prefer to allow discussion. You have not changed London to London GAA - as you know, the wrecking you have done has been at articles below GAA county level. I don't recognise any "Gaelin Football" items among the titles you mention but as a former member of London GAA I do of course know the names of London Gaelic football competitions. Brocach (talk) 00:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I largely agree with Bronach on the changing of titles withiut any discussion. The Armagh Senior Football Championship is not known as the Armagh GAA Senior Football Championship. Each of the articles should indicate that it is a Gaelic football or hurling competition organized by the Armagh GAA board. This should be the case for all counties. The only exceptions to this would possibly be London or New York or any other GAA competition organized outside of Ireland. This should be the case fro football anyway as there are certainly different versions and others are usually better known on the other countries. If we follow Laurel's pattern than we will have to rename every sporting competition to include the name of the association also. This is already done in competitions that have duplicate names, such as the Munster Senior Cup in rugby and soccer. I do not think we need to do that for every competition. Pmunited (talk) 20:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Laurel Lodged's renaming process, however it should of been brought to discussion first as it is on such a large scale. Mabuska (talk) 21:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- As Laurel Lodged didn't bother to persuade anyone why the names should "of" been changed, can you suggest any reason, Mabuska? Brocach (talk) 22:15, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Not bother? Did you even read my first contribution above? I thought that it cut to the heart of the matter. You may have been distracted parsing the contributions for spelling errors. I'm sure we're all grateful for your OED (or should that be OTT?) corrections. Anyhoooo....to make my point a tad more explicit. Firstly, "GAA" refers not to the competition but the sponsoring administrative body (e.g. Ulster GAA). Secondly, the name follows the name of the parent article (e.g. Ulster GAA). Thirdly, it disambiguates from other football competitions that might take place in Ulster from time to time - such as soccer, for example. Fourthly, neither Ulster GAA nor any other GAA "county" has a monopoly on the name "Ulster" or any other "county" among sporting bodies in Ulster or elsewhere. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- Your first comment above explained nothing whatever. It flew off at a tangent about London.
- (1) The name of the competitions does not include the term "GAA". By renaming articles to insert "GAA" and disrupt the name of the competitions, you instantly make the articles less accurate and less useful, and in every case, you have left the bolded name in the lede in disagreement with your imposed title.
- (2) As for the notion that the name of the "parent article" must determine the name of all others, can you explain why, for example, World Series isn't called "Major League Baseball World Series"? Why Pro 12 isn't "Celtic Rugby Limited Pro 12"? Why the Wimbledon Championships aren't listed as "All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club Championships, Wimbledon" and so on ad nauseam?
- (3) How many other organisations in Ireland organise hurling competitions? Can you give one - just one - example of a GAA-run competition that shares its name with a competition in any other sport?
- (4) Have I, or has anyone else ever, suggested that the GAA has a monopoly on county or province names?
- I try to be polite here but your arrogance in unilaterally and pointlessly renaming dozens of GAA articles would try the patience of a saint. You must stop renaming huge numbers of articles without even attempting to explain yourself, never mind seek agreement. You are a vandal. Stay away from the GAA articles unless you are prepared to be civil and constructive. Brocach (talk) 22:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- Not bother? Did you even read my first contribution above? I thought that it cut to the heart of the matter. You may have been distracted parsing the contributions for spelling errors. I'm sure we're all grateful for your OED (or should that be OTT?) corrections. Anyhoooo....to make my point a tad more explicit. Firstly, "GAA" refers not to the competition but the sponsoring administrative body (e.g. Ulster GAA). Secondly, the name follows the name of the parent article (e.g. Ulster GAA). Thirdly, it disambiguates from other football competitions that might take place in Ulster from time to time - such as soccer, for example. Fourthly, neither Ulster GAA nor any other GAA "county" has a monopoly on the name "Ulster" or any other "county" among sporting bodies in Ulster or elsewhere. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- As Laurel Lodged didn't bother to persuade anyone why the names should "of" been changed, can you suggest any reason, Mabuska? Brocach (talk) 22:15, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Talk:London GAA Intermediate Football Championship .Requested move here Gnevin (talk) 13:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- Just because we have disagreed frequently on this point does not mean that you are right and I am wrong. Quite the opposite - most of your proposals re GAA have been defeated. Other forums have suggested that it you who is disruptive and that you should be topic banned. Up to this point, I have refrained from ad hominem attacks and tried to let the logic speak for itself. I will try to continue with my usual style of attacking the ball instead of the man, despite the temptation to do otherwise. Regarding your point "The name of the competitions does not include the term "GAA". At no time have I suggested that it does. This is a strawman argument. The name refers, not to the competition but to the competition's sponsoring body. So in long hand it would read "The senior level hurling competition organised by the County Board of Foo". As this would be a bit unwieldly, contractions must be employed. The current name is IMHO, the most attractive while serving a useful disambiguation purpose. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:09, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
- Note a parallel discussion is taking place here. It would be nice if we could agree on a common forum. We wouldn't want to encourage forum shopping. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:51, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
- I see that Brocach has ignored my warning about forum shopping and has done precisely the opposite by opening a slew of discussions instead of centralising the discussion here. How exactly is that supoosed to result in a consistent decision? Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion is only happening because you, Laurel Lodged, suddenly and unilaterally moved dozens of GAA articles away from the WP:COMMONNAME titles where they were created and, in most cases, had sat for years. You left others of exactly the same format unchanged, so consistency clearly matters little to you. I have posted on some - by no means all - of the moved pages to draw attention to the discussion going on at Talk:London GAA Intermediate Football Championship; you will notice that not one of the talk pages on which I have posted is among those listed at London for reversion. The many, many pages that you moved without discussion, never mind consensus, can only be moved back to their correct titles by an admin, because the cack-handed way you moved them resulted in a bot cleanup that adds to the history and so blocks straightforward editor moves. The amount of work that that will involve for one or more patient admins will be tackled more enthusiastically if more people participate in the discussion. That will only happen if people who use the GAA articles are made aware of what you have done and where it is being debated. Brocach (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
RfC on the use of flag icons for sportspeople
An RfC discussion about the MOS:FLAG restriction on the use of flag icons for sportspeople has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. We invite all interested participants to provide their opinion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:39, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Carrig and Riverstown GAA article speedily deleted
"An article I created on Carrig and Riverstown GAA was nominated for Speedy Deletion and has now been deleted, speedily, before I could gather my thoughts. I believe that it is as notable as any other GAA club but its only my personal belief. The club is unusual as it straddles the Tipperary Offaly border with both Carrig and Riverstown in Tipp but the club playing for Offaly. Can anyone write an article in a way that makes it notable?
Belmonter (talk) 22:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Info on nomination below:
A tag has been placed on Carrig and Riverstown GAA requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.
If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Cindy(talk to me) 15:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)"
- Did you keep a copy of the page? If not, can you obtain one from the link above? Which editor nominated this, on the face of it, interesting example of a cross-border club for deletion, and have you engaged with them? Brocach (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- What a pity that the article was deleted. It would have been a perfect example of how "Tipperary GAA Clubs" (or "Tipperary GAA hurlers") is not co-extensive with "GAA clubs in County Tipperary" or "GAA hurlers from County Tipperary". I'm sure that some of those Carrig and Riverstown players would be highly insulted to be called "GAA hurlers from County Tipperary" if they were born in County Offaly. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:00, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
- Did you keep a copy of the page? If not, can you obtain one from the link above? Which editor nominated this, on the face of it, interesting example of a cross-border club for deletion, and have you engaged with them? Brocach (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
FYI
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_January_3#Category:Tipperary_hurlers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armagh GAA Senior Leagues Gnevin (talk) 15:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Unjustified change of category name
There is now one anomalous GAA category, "Tipperary GAA hurlers", which has just been renamed from the format followed for every other county, where "county hurlers" is rather than county GAA hurlers". The name of the team that GAA county players play for is, in every single case, one word - the name of the historic county, without adding "GAA". Anyone on this page will also probably know that all hurlers are GAA hurlers. The renaming was effected by an administrator following a discussion [here]. I believe that this was a mistake and have asked the admin to reconsider. If that is not successful I will propose reverting to the long-standing "Tipperary hurlers" category.
There were three move proposals made; the first (by Laurel Lodged, an editor with a history of moving multiple GAA pages without discussion, so this at least was a small advance) was to move to "Hurlers with Tipperary GAA", and this received one other vote in support. The second proposal was to move all GAA sportsperson categories to the format "county GAA sportsperson", which would mean e.g. "Tipperary GAA hurlers", "Cork GAA camogie players", "Tyrone GAA Gaelic footballers", "Dublin GAA Gaelic handballers" - affecting potentially over a hundred categories just at the county level, but categories like this also exist for provinces and for individual GAA clubs, of which there are over 2,500. This second proposal had two votes in favour: the proposer, who may or may not have been joking, and the proposer of the first option who changed his/her vote. There were then three votes in favour of renaming this one category, Tipperary hurlers, to "Tipperary GAA hurlers", with no mention of a wholesale renaming of all GAA player categories. Three editors voted against any renaming. The final score: option 1, 1 vote; option 2, 2 votes; option 3, 3 votes; no change, 3 votes. This was somehow interpreted as justifying the renaming of "Tipperary hurlers" to "Tipperary GAA hurlers".
As an editor of many GAA articles I feel strongly that this move was wrong in itself, in that it creates one category that differs from every other county hurlers category, and in that it is tautologous: all hurlers are GAA hurlers, just as all camogie players, Gaelic football players and Gaelic handballers are GAA people. Bit if I am wrong and the move was right in the case of Tipperary, every other GAA category should be renamed to that format. Do you support that, or do you think that the category should revert to "Tipperary hurlers"? Brocach (talk) 10:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Proposal affecting hundreds of GAA articles is being discussed elsewhere
For reasons unknown, an editor - Mabuska - has chosen to sidestep this page and bring to WkiProject Ireland proposals that could result in hundreds of unnecessary changes to GAA articles, all posited on a false claim of a breach of the Irish manual of style in relation to Derry GAA. Anyone interested in the quality of Wikipedia's GAA content should have their say. Brocach (talk) 15:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Reasons unknown? What chutzpah! Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, of course, you think that "Nothing but tumbleweed pass[es] this project". Your conduct in relation to renaming well-established GAA articles tells me that you are pursuing an agenda here that has nothing to do with improving the coverage of the GAA on Wikipedia. Brocach (talk) 23:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- What's that? My hearing aid must be unplugged. Laurel Lodged (talk) 00:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, of course, you think that "Nothing but tumbleweed pass[es] this project". Your conduct in relation to renaming well-established GAA articles tells me that you are pursuing an agenda here that has nothing to do with improving the coverage of the GAA on Wikipedia. Brocach (talk) 23:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
More unnecessary renaming of long-settled GAA categories proposed by the same individual here [2], and an attempt to have me banned here [3]. Brocach (talk) 21:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- This is a disgrace. I heartily support the proposal to ban the same individual and all other disruptive types and their sidekicks. Up with this we should not put. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- Can we talk about this in 1 place . There are 6 discussions going on now , 2 category moves ,2 page moves, 1 at IMOS and 1 here Gnevin (talk) 11:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Article and category naming conventions
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Users may be aware that an editor has, in recent months, changed the names of scores of GAA categories and articles without engaging in discussion at the respective talk pages, even when expressly invited to do so, and has reverted any reversions of that change. After many, at times acrimonious, exchanges an admin has insisted that an attempt be made to resolve matters by consensus at this page, and in the interim, has threatened to block edits on these matters. The GAA articles and categories are thus effectively frozen in different styles. I begin this discussion by seeking consensus on two issues.
Views are sought on the following proposals. For ease of reading, please respond below rather than in the body of this posting. I present the two issues as proposals which, for the avoidance of doubt, I support. They could of course have been presented differently but one editor has to initiate this discussion.
(1) All articles on intra-county GAA competitions should continue to be named according to the common name of the competition, thus "Armagh Intermediate Football Championship", "Wicklow Senior Hurling Championship" etc. without the insertion of "GAA" after the county name, and without the (transient) sponsor name, unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition;
(2) All categories covering people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should continue to be named in the long-established format ["GAA county name" "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."], e.g. "Tipperary footballers", "Wexford camogie players", "Derry hurlers" etc., reflecting the fact that the team name is the name of the GAA county (e.g. Tipperary) without either the addition of "GAA" ("Tipperary GAA hurlers"), or diversion to sub-categories relating to modern administrative counties ("North Tipperary", "South Tipperary", "Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" etc.). The same would apply to generic categories such as "Sportspeople from County Tipperary": a sportsperson who played on a representative team for his/her GAA county would be listed in the traditional 32-county category rather than in the modern administrative subdivision.
Please indicate below whether you Support or Oppose (1) and (2). While anyone can make alternative proposals on these two issues, I request that comments be kept brief (and polite) for the benefit of admins who will have to assess the outcome. Brocach (talk) 23:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for opening this discussion. It was I who suggested a further attempt at reaching consensus - and also I who has promised to block anyone making and/or reverting any such categories until this consensus is reached. Please report any infractions to my talk page if you'd like me to carry through on this. I don't think you will need an admin or anyone else to judge whether a consensus has been reached, but if you do and people want to ask me I will certainly give my opinion. I won't be supporting or opposing any proposals here - that's for you folks who know the topic to do. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 00:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Could you split question 1 into two questions? You have accidental put two subjects (County name & sponsor name) into one question making the question useless. The same with question 2, where you have put two subjects (name of sport county & name of county where a sporter hails from) into one question making the question useless. The Banner talk 00:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hang on. In relation to sponsor names, which can change every year, are you actually proposing that in Wikipedia coverage of county championships, there must be a new article created on every occasion when the locally arranged sponsorship changes, in order to incorporate the name of the current sponsor in Wikipedia article titles? I had thought that my proposal that the article should carry the generic name - e.g. "Cork Senior Hurling Championship" - was uncontroversial, but if anyone thinks that a new article must be created every time that a new sponsor comes on board, please feel free to argue for that below.
- As for the idea that "Kerry hurlers" etc. needs disambiguation between "men who hurl and come from Kerry" and "men who hurl and hurl for Kerry", I don't think that's a huge problem. There may be men who hurl for Kerry and come from Antrim - I can't think of any at the moment - and there may be men who come from Kerry and hurl for Antrim - stumped again - but in both cases, we are only talking about categories, and one man or one "sporter" (a new word for me, thanks) can easily fit in more than one category. Brocach (talk) 01:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- What I suggest is plain this:
- Question 1: Should the name of GAA competitions incorporate sponsor names?
- Question 2: Should the name of GAA competitions incorporate the official name of the county (i.e. "county name" GAA "competition name)? Oppose if you prefer the popular name of the competition (i.e. "county name" "competition name)? Or the other way round, if you prefer that
- Question 3: All categories covering people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should use a name according to the format ["GAA county name" "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."]? Oppose if you prefer the format ["county name" GAA "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."]? Or the other way round, if you prefer that
- So far, no real changes in the questions expect split off and neutralisation of the questions. But the last part of the old question works out a bit different:
- Question 4: Are categories about the county where a sports person is living related to the GAA-county? Oppose if you think it should be related to the geographical/administrative county they are living in? Example: is Paul Flynn (Gaelic footballer) a sports person from Dublin (plays county football for Dublin GAA) or from Fingal (he lives in Swords, Dublin, in the administrative county Fingal)
- On all four question you can now say yes or no. The Banner talk 01:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Could you split question 1 into two questions? You have accidental put two subjects (County name & sponsor name) into one question making the question useless. The same with question 2, where you have put two subjects (name of sport county & name of county where a sporter hails from) into one question making the question useless. The Banner talk 00:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Support (1) and Support (2) RashersTierney (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
PLEASE WAIT WITH VOTING TILL WE HAVE AGREED ON THE QUESTIONS TO ASK. AFTER THREE YEARS OF TROUBLE, A DAY MORE DOES NOT MATTER.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Banner (talk • contribs) 02:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose 1 & 2 - Whether we are ready to proceed or not, the insertion of "GAA" afterwards makes it abundantly clear what exactly they are referring to. The proposals for exclusion of "GAA" in my view is simply so that "Derry GAA hurlers" etc. can be listed as simply "Derry hurlers" in clear attempts to bypass IMoS - and before Scolaire and brocach try to say how is it being violated - it only says usually abbreviated to [[Derry GAA|Derry]] <- this does not work with categories and article titles. Mabuska (talk) 09:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- In regards to TheBanner's valid points, a proposal that Derry GAA be exempt from Brocach's proposals should be made. Mabuska (talk) 09:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- a rare occasion but I agree with Mabuska here. I think articles of this nature should be appended with 'GAA'. Adding 'GAA' does not detract from the article or its content, only adding clarity. Ask yourself, does adding 'GAA' detract from the article? The answer is *NO.Factocop (talk) 09:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal 1:
Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X Intermediate Football Championship", not ""X GAA Intermediate Football Championship", unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.
Support
- Scolaire (talk) 10:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Brocach (talk) 12:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hohenloh + 14:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Finnegas (talk) 21:48, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:28, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Qetuth (talk) 13:49, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:57, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Funny Pika! 18:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Staberinde (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- RashersTierney (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose
- Unless Derry is exempted then I can't back this proposal. Mabuska (talk) 12:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- As per Mabuska. — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Common sense. Oppose.Factocop (talk) 09:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
Per COMMONNAME, the articles should have the same names as the competitions themselves. All talk about the difference between "GAA counties", "traditional counties" and "administrative counties" is hair-splitting. There is no real possibility of confusion. Scolaire (talk) 10:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal 2:
Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not include the (transient) sponsor name, unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.
Support
- Scolaire (talk) 10:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mabuska (talk) 12:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Banner talk 12:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Brocach (talk) 12:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hohenloh + 14:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Finnegas (talk) 21:49, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Weak support. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:28, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Qetuth (talk) 13:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Funny Pika! 18:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Staberinde (talk) 11:46, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- RashersTierney (talk) 19:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose
Discussion
Many of these articles are left untouched for years. I myself have had occasion to remove a sponsor's name several years after they withdrew their sponsorship. Scolaire (talk) 10:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- This does not outrule the possibility that the lead might incorporate the sponsored name as "(also known as Foo Widgets Intergalactic Handball Face Off)" in the lead. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:30, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Am mindful of the Aviva Stadium controversy. If that's what they want to call it, and they trouser the money from the sponsor, who are we to gainsay them? Can they realy have jam on both sides? Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Naming issues of buildings is not in the scope of the present set of questions under discussion. The Banner talk 12:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- As LL says, this should not rule out mention in the lead as appropriate, nor redirects as appropriate. --Qetuth (talk) 13:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal 3:
Titles of categories of people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X hurlers", not "X GAA hurlers"; "X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers". [note: second example added for clarity, 09:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)]
Support
- Scolaire (talk) 10:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Brocach (talk) 12:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Finnegas (talk) 21:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:29, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:47, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing (talk) 13:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- RashersTierney (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose
- Unless Derry is exempted then I can't back this proposal. Mabuska (talk) 12:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- As per Mabuska. — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- 'X Gaelic Footballers' is fine and pretty obvious but I think 'X Hurlers' should be appended with GAA as it is a minority sport with little global following.Factocop (talk) 09:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
Per COMMONNAME. Alan Brogan is not known as a "Dublin GAA Gaelic footballer" but as a "Dublin Gaelic footballer" or just as a "Dublin footballer". There is no real danger of confusion, therefore no need for disambiguation. Scolaire (talk) 10:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- In every case, including Derry, the name of the team that inter-county players play or played for is the county name without the addition of "GAA". To make a special case of Derry would be to import a political issue into a sporting context where it simply isn't an issue - there has never been a Londonderry GAA, while Derry as a GAA county has been around for more than a century and its name is simply a fact. Some people may dislike the name but Wikipedia does not have an opinion about it; if anyone finds terms like "Derry footballers" or "Derry hurlers" somehow controversial or offensive, they should probably avoid articles about Ulster GAA matters and/or up the strength of their medication. Brocach (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with Derry being used in the title. I just find that the proposal is not worded to avoid confusion with other sports (i.e. association football and Derry City FC), unlike the previous two. Ideally, categories should be kept as "Derry Gaelic footballers". Funny Pika! 18:52, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- You are quite right! And that is how the cats are currently named. Would anybody object if I retrospectively added '"X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers"' to the proposal? Scolaire (talk) 20:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal 4:
Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should be categorised according to the county for which the player played, i.e. "Category: X GAA hurlers" or "Category: X hurlers" should include people who have hurled for X, regardless of their place of birth or residence. Players who have played for more than one county should be included in both county categories. Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not be categorised according to the county in which the player was born or the county or counties in which they resided during their playing career.
Support
- Scolaire (talk) 10:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mabuska (talk) 12:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Brocach (talk) 12:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hohenloh + 14:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing (talk) 17:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Finnegas (talk) 21:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- See Proposal 7 below also. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:37, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:31, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Funny Pika! 19:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Staberinde (talk) 11:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- RashersTierney (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose
- The Banner talk 14:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC) as it are two different questions presented as one question
Discussion
- Carlow hurlers are people who hurl for Carlow. It is never used in any other sense. In most cases Gaelic players play for the county of their birth/residence anyway. The exceptions are too few to cause confusion. Scolaire (talk) 10:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Strange question with two different subjects. Impossible to answer on this. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- The proposal as it currently stands contains two premises. It's possible to vote for one but not the other. For clarity, the second premise should be deleted ("Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not be categorised according to the county in which the player was born or the county or counties in which they resided during their playing career."). If liked, it could be the subject of an indedepdent proposal. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Just clarifying, this means that a 'hurler' category should itself never be a subcategory of a 'sportspeople from' category? And is it intended to apply to all GAA countries worldwide, or just those in Ireland? --Qetuth (talk) 13:47, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- The category for people who pay any sport for a county team (County Foo) should always be a sub-category of Category:Sportspeople from County Foo.
Per WP:CAT#Overview, categories exist to facilitate navigation, and it is a navigational nonsense to exclude Category:Foo Hurlers and Category:Foo Gaelic Footballers from Category:Sportspeople from County Foo. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)- Doesn't this conflict with Proposal 5 in that case? And this is not widespread elsewhere: It appears most team sports (I checked baseball, soccer, basketball and rugby league) use something like Category:Major League Baseball players by team or Category:Rugby league players by club which are not children of the "from foo" structure. And I believe rightly so, as in most cases playing for a team does not necessarily convey 'fromness' to al players, and that is something better added to players individually. I thought this proposal was clarifying that Category:Hurlers by county in the Republic of Ireland was another sports equivalent to these trees, which I would support. --Qetuth (talk) 01:33, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- The proposal itself does not conflict with Proposal 5. This proposal merely says that the article on the player should be categorised according to what team he or she plays for. The question of subcats is not on the agenda in this discussion. If it is to be raised, it should be raised after this discussion is done. Scolaire (talk) 10:03, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Doesn't this conflict with Proposal 5 in that case? And this is not widespread elsewhere: It appears most team sports (I checked baseball, soccer, basketball and rugby league) use something like Category:Major League Baseball players by team or Category:Rugby league players by club which are not children of the "from foo" structure. And I believe rightly so, as in most cases playing for a team does not necessarily convey 'fromness' to al players, and that is something better added to players individually. I thought this proposal was clarifying that Category:Hurlers by county in the Republic of Ireland was another sports equivalent to these trees, which I would support. --Qetuth (talk) 01:33, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- The category for people who pay any sport for a county team (County Foo) should always be a sub-category of Category:Sportspeople from County Foo.
Proposal 5:
In any of the above cases, the county in question should be the GAA county, not the "current administrative" county, i.e. "Tipperary", not "South Tipperary"; "Dublin", not "Fingal".
Support
- Scolaire (talk) 13:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Gnevin (talk) 13:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hohenloh + 14:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Finnegas (talk) 21:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Brocach (talk) 16:24, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:38, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Funny Pika! 19:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Staberinde (talk) 11:48, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mabuska (talk) 20:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- RashersTierney (talk) 19:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose
- The Banner talk 14:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC) because of the dodgy question 4, the only thing left is to oppose
Discussion
- Self-evident in my opinion. Even if a Gaelic player hails from a different county to the one in which he plays, it is the GAA county that matters, not the "administrative division". Scolaire (talk) 13:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Without a clear question 4, impossible to answer. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- This proposal is poorly worded. It should stand on its own ground. It should not be dependent on another proposal. Were the second term of the previous proposal ("Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not be categorised according to the county in which the player was born or the county or counties in which they resided during their playing career.) removed, then unambiguous voting could take place. Until then, it's impossible to know what a vote really means. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- LL, I think that you are the only editor who might be interested in creating Category:Fingal hurlers or Category:South Tipperary hurlers. For the rest of us, there is no issue here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:42, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal 6:
Derry GAA should be exempted from all the above proposals, and IMoS should be amended to clarify as such.
Support
- Mabuska (talk) 11:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:22, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Common sense. Can see no sensical reason for opposing this, unless there is a hidden agenda here.Factocop (talk) 09:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose
- Scolaire (talk) 10:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Brocach (talk) 12:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Finnegas (talk) 21:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:31, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Qetuth (talk) 14:07, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:49, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Funny Pika! 18:59, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing (talk) 13:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- RashersTierney (talk) 19:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
The Irish Manual of Style says that Derry GAA will usually be abbreviated to Derry. There is no reason believe that the word "usually" excludes article or category names. Scolaire (talk) 10:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The IMoS part that you are referring to that you yourself reworded states "and Derry GAA (which will usually be abbreviated to "[[Derry GAA|Derry]]" - how does this apply to article or category names? In all technicality it doesn't and can only apply to in-text content in an article that is wiki-linked. You will need to propose an amendment to the IMoS that clarifies it to work for you - however I oppose any such possible proposal when the issue when I raised it found 4 editors (including me) agreeing that there needs to be clarification that it shouldn't apply to categories, templates, and hash links etc as opposed to 3 (Scolaire, Gnevin, and Brocach) who disagreed. Mabuska (talk) 11:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The part I am referring to says "Where an entity uses a particular name, regardless of whether it is Derry or Londonderry, use that name for the entity". It doesn't say "use it in some places and not in others". The Derry team is an entity. It uses the name "Derry". Therefore we use "Derry". If you put a proposal to change that part, and it didn't get a consensus, that's not my fault or anybody else's. Scolaire (talk) 14:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- In fact the Derry/Derry GAA issue whilst related, as far as I am concerned should not have been put in with this one as the Derry/Derry GAA issue focused on an actual part of the IMoS that lacks clarification and was added in without any discussion or consensus. Mabuska (talk) 11:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what your issue is with Derry GAA. Can you outline a few samples ? Gnevin (talk) 13:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- There is no good reason to exempt Derry. The rules work very well and made sense. People seem to want to makes things more complicated then they need to be.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Well actually there is as it would be misleading to just have derry there because it could mislead people into thinking that co. Londonderry is erroniously called co. derry when it is just the name of the GAA county. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see a problem as long as the context of the article is within Gaelic games, as per IMOS. For me it's either all the counties follow "Dublin GAA" or "Dublin GAA|Dublin", not just some - else we're just adding pointless politics into the matter. Funny Pika! 19:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Well actually there is as it would be misleading to just have derry there because it could mislead people into thinking that co. Londonderry is erroniously called co. derry when it is just the name of the GAA county. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- The infobox for Joe Brolly, to take one example, says that he was born in Dungiven, County Londonderry. There is no question of his GAA career being used to change the name of his county of birth. There is no misleading going on. I don't even see how readers can be misled. "County Londonderry" is a convention used by Wikipedia editors. It is not apparent to readers. Readers cannot be "misled" into thinking the county is called Derry, because it is called Derry by millions of people. There is a long-standing convention that the geographical county is called "Londonderry" on WP, and an equally long-standing convention that the GAA county is called "Derry". This is not a new notion that somebody has sprung upon us in the last few weeks. Scolaire (talk) 20:18, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- In fact, that is why I suggested the edit to IMOS in the first place: that Derry GAA was an example of where "Derry" had been used for many years without causing problems. And there is no reason why it should cause problems in the future. Scolaire (talk) 20:48, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- In regards to Joe Brolly should it not be in the lede of the article that he is from Dungiven, County Londonderry, NI? Biography articles tend to start along those lines. Mabuska (talk) 22:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I will post a full reasoning for this proposal later. Mabuska (talk) 11:24, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Reasoning for this proposal
The problems with the above proposals in regards to the Derry GAA is the obvious fact that it is far too ambiguous especially if used outside of a GAA article. There are two editors who are vocal in their opposition to my proposal, and one of them focuses quite a lot on the term "GAA county". In regards to that:
- I have seen no proof and can find none at present that states the GAA created an entirely separate and distinct county structure of it's own. Rather all I have seen including on Wikipedia is that the GAA based itself on the county system used in Ireland at that time - 32 counties, one of which is officially called Londonderry and has been since it's very creation.
- Obviously the county system has changed since the GAA's formation, with Tipperary being made into North and South, and Dublin not even existing anymore having being split into 3 - yet the GAA didn't change it's structure to follow suit as it isn't bound by government decisions on boundaries and counties.
- After the aims of preserving Ireland's Gaelic sporting past, the GAA is an organisation that extols Irish nationalism, with it deeply embedded to its core, which is evident to this day in the naming of it's clubs, organisations and tournaments. It even split at one time between members who backed constitutional nationalism or militant nationalism. Thus it has always called the county of Londonderry, Derry, as that is what Irish nationalists call it.
- Living in a nationalist majority part of County Londonderry I have spoken to mates and colleagues who have told me explicitly that Derry GAA represents "County Derry" as in County Londonderry not a separate unique creation.
What I'm getting at with the above points is that I have seen no evidence that shows that the GAA created a brand new county entity called Derry. Rather the Derry GAA county board is a county board that represents GAA clubs in County Londonderry. The Derry GAA article's history section also gives the impression (to me anyways) that the county board represents County Londonderry rather than a brand new county created by the GAA. This is also backed up for me by Rannpháirtí anaithnid, an edit that was opposed and reworded by Brocach who made argument once again of this distinct "GAA county".
Thus the arguments about a distinct unique "GAA county" of Derry from that of County Londonderry I feel are rather moot and appears to be either original research that Brocach has added to many GAA articles, and/or a Wikipedia neologism invented for the purpose of pushing the usage of Derry in place of Londonderry in regards to the county area.
Having said that, despite the fact Derry GAA represents County Londonderry, as the sport and it's participants and supporters have always used Derry for it, I have no issue with that and have never voiced a problem with that on Wikipedia. The problem for me however lies in the ambiguity Scolaire recently added into the IMoS with "Derry GAA (which will usually be abbreviated to [[Derry GAA|Derry]])". The edit makes perfect sense in-text within a GAA article, especially if it's used unpiped in the first instance of the term "Derry GAA"'s usage, I have no problem with that. The problem is that it has been used since to backup arguments to push "Derry" in place of "Derry GAA", and also does not make sense for links and categories that refer to Derry GAA.
According to the IMoS we use Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county. Despite recent undiscussed additions that have no community consensus, the Derry GAA is the GAA in County Londonderry. Using just "Derry" instead of "Derry GAA" for me and others implies an attempt to have the county called Derry by the back-door.
Unfortunately the following will probably seem like an ad hominem statement, however it is what gave ground to my belief that the primary focus of some editors is to bypass IMoS and impose Derry for the county. The prime example for my concerns is Brocach's edits in Derry GAA related articles and the IMoS prior to this discussion - which included trying to replace County Londonderry categories from Derry GAA related articles and adding County Derry ones - this for the proposing of deleting Londonderry ones and this for deletion of his County Derry creations. Several weeks after Cydebot deleted all the County Derry categories, Brocach added a "#Derry" to a "See also" link in most or all Derry GAA club articles, example. I do accept that I could well be wrong in regards to Brocach's edits and intentions, however my experience suggests otherwise and means I am finding it hard to assume good faith on this issue.
- Links such as List_of_Gaelic_games_clubs_in_Ireland#Derry|List of Gaelic Athletic Association clubs in Derry to me give the impression that it is simply an attempt to bypass IMoS - backed up for me by Brocach's edit history the past year in regards to Derry GAA articles and IMoS - briefly highlighted above.
- Links such as List_of_Gaelic_games_clubs_in_Ireland#Derry|List of Gaelic Athletic Association clubs in Derry whilst useful for such a long article (which me and Brocach have tried to shorten together), links to a pipe-link which further gives the impression to me of County Derry, especially as the hash link bypasses the lede which makes it clear it is on about "GAA counties", and assumes a reader will follow through with that pipe-link.
- There is also the possibility of confusion with the city of Derry, but it can be easily remedied with the addition of city.
In regards to that link I had made a proposal were we used "#Derry GAA", however there was no consensus, and Brocach and Scolaire both oppossed a counter-proposal from myself where I suggested piping "List_of_Gaelic_games_clubs_in_Ireland#Derry" with "List_of_Derry GAA clubs". As it is clear that there is no consensus for or against Proposal 6, the onus is upon all here to work for a compromise that meets the concerns of all involved and we can all agree to. I had already proposed a couple, and no doubt there are many others that could be proposed by editors. An idea could be only using "Derry GAA" in the form of a pipe where the link or category may be used in a non-GAA article etc. No doubt there is a multitude of other possibilities that can be suggested by others. Compromise is needed. Mabuska (talk) 22:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mabuska, I agree with you that "GAA county" stuff is sometimes overplayed. We had 2 lengthy CFD discussions on the topic last autumn (CFD Sept 26 and October 19. In the first discussion, Brocachj acknowledged that "The differences between the 32 GAA counties (in Ireland) and the (former) 32 local government counties are so slight, and so variable from year to year, that for most purposes they can be considered as pretty much identical."
- I think that view is quite widely shared, which is why LL's desire to refer to "Cork GAA hurlers" etc has not achieved consensus. But it's also irrelevant here.
- We are not discussing the GAA county, or even whether it exists. We are discussing the county board, and the team it fields. And you are making really heavy going of something that's actually quite simple.
- Forget for a moment that this is anything to with a county; it is a private sporting organisation, which manages a sport in a given area. That area may be whatever it may be, and the sporting organisation can call itself whatever it likes. It could, like Apprentice Boys of Derry, ignore the formal name of the area and choose an unofficial name; or it could name itself after another area (Inishmurray GAA?); or it could make something up. "Electric Crocodile GAA", if it so chose.
- None of that is any of our business on Wikipedia. In naming articles, we use the WP:COMMONNAME and disambiguate as needed. So the article title spells out the name in full ("Derry GAA") ... but when the context is clear, we can skip the GAA bit. So if a paragraph in some non-GAA context makes a passing ref, we spell out "Derry GAA" in full ... but if it is in a GAA context, we can skip the GAA bit.
- The specific issue that troubles you is a remarkably narrow one, and does not reflect well on any of the editors involved. We don't need a ruleset to sort out some sort of a compromise on that one. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- I fully agree with Mabuska here. This does appear to be a back door edit to go around IMOS. I do not understand why we would not want to remove the confusion and ambiguity around 'Derry', 'Derry GAA' and 'County Londonderry'. Ofcourse its not confusing for us, and those versed on the topic but it is the reader here that we are trying to appease. So any point of 'its not confusing' or 'not misleading' is a waste of characters. Please, please, please apply some common sense for once in this project!!!!Factocop (talk) 10:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Factocop, I'm all in favour of commonsense. I just don't think that we need to spell out every instance of it. That way lies a morass of instruction creep which makes it harder for editors to understand the principles. Much better to continue to assume that editors will respect the spirit of WP:IMOS, and deal directly with issues caused by those who ignore it.
- What we have here is simply one editor (Broach) who has been trying to promote the usage of "Derry" as a name for the county. Hir attempts to rename the categories all failed, so now he has been trying to push the same objective in a difft area. Instead of Brocach's
[[List of Gaelic games clubs in Ireland#Derry|List of Gaelic Athletic Association clubs in Derry]]
we can write[[List of Gaelic games clubs in Ireland#Derry|List of Derry Gaelic Athletic Association clubs]]
or[[List of Gaelic games clubs in Ireland#Derry|List of Derry GAA clubs]]
. Simple solution, works for all POVs. Why do we need a rule to achieve this? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- I fully agree with Mabuska here. This does appear to be a back door edit to go around IMOS. I do not understand why we would not want to remove the confusion and ambiguity around 'Derry', 'Derry GAA' and 'County Londonderry'. Ofcourse its not confusing for us, and those versed on the topic but it is the reader here that we are trying to appease. So any point of 'its not confusing' or 'not misleading' is a waste of characters. Please, please, please apply some common sense for once in this project!!!!Factocop (talk) 10:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Mabuska, that's a very important bit of history you've given us there. I have to confess that throughout the various discussions over the past weeks I was never fully aware of the background. And it does matter. And it is both relevant and important to this discussion. Those edits, cat creations and CfDs were wrong. They were wrong, not because they broke some rule, but because they were against the spirit of compromise that we have all tried to maintain on the Derry/Londonderry question for the last nine years. And if an edit was made to IMOS in an attempt to justify going against a long-standing convention – and I can fully understand why you think it was – that was also wrong.
Having said that, I agree with BHG: there is a difference between compromise and iron-clad rules. "Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county" is a convention, not a rule. I believe that all of us over the years have worked hard at preserving that convention, even when it meant reverting edits that our own personal POVs would have made us tend to leave. Another convention, that was never explicitly mentioned on IMOS before this current controversy arose, is that in GAA matters, the county is referred to as "Derry". For all of the nine years, as far as I am aware, that convention was observed without causing any trouble. If, in a case like that, an editor starts doing things against the spirit of compromise, the answer is not to change the "rules" but to follow the dispute resolution procedure. In the first place, changing the "rules" will not deter a determined editor; in the second, it complicates things for those who want to edit articles, without any obvious benefit to the reader; and in the third, many (most?) editors are unaware of IMOS, or don't look it up before editing. If we consider edits to be disruptive, we start by discussing, then go to the dispute resolution noticeboard, then to AN/I and then, if need be, to formal mediation or arbitration. I believe that making Derry an exception to these proposals would simply create an anomaly which would confuse the reader, and would not deter an editor who was determined to be disruptive.
You are right, of course, that "GAA counties" have no real existence. It's just a shorthand. Unfortunately, it is used in different ways at different times. Sometimes, it is used for places where borders are not identical e.g. Ballaghaderreen is in County Roscommon, Ballaghaderreen GAA club plays in Mayo. Other times it is used to mean the "traditional counties" or "32 counties" e.g. "Dublin" refers to the three administrative areas plus Dublin city. In the case of Derry, it is used to refer to the aforementioned convention of using "Derry" as the county name in GAA matters, which I believe has resulted in peace more often than in war over the years.
Apologies for the length of this, but I believe that such a detailed and well-argued rationale deserves an equally detailed response. Scolaire (talk) 10:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the detailed explanation Mabuska. It's a pity you had to resort to blaming "nationalists" - that's a tired argument. We should have our own version of Godwin's law for whenever this argument is used. It's a backhanded anti-AGF argument and we've all been around long enough to know if this is the case, rather than label as a nationalist anyone who disagrees with your opinion or !votes differently.
- That said, the Londonderry/Derry naming convention has survived because the rule is simple. One for the county, the other for the city. For me, the question is whether we should refer to the GAA administrative area by what it is commonly known as, or whether we should acknowledge that since the area is referred to as a "county" by the GAA, we should stick with the IMOS conventions already agreed in the past.
- I've a lot of sympathy for the arguments for using the term Londonderry, based on "official name" arguments. But in this case, I believe the difference is that the GAA owns the "official name" for their administrative area, and as BHG stated, can call it anything they like. For that reason, I don't see how we can not call it Derry.
- That leaves the question of appending "GAA" to the name. There's a number of arguments for and against. I believe the strongest reason to append "GAA" is to add clarity to titles - "Derry GAA hurlers" instead of "Derry hurlers" for example. The main problem with that suggestion is that for people who know what hurling is, the GAA is superfluous. And for people who don't know what hurling is, adding GAA doesn't clarify anything - it would be better if the suggestion was to expand to "Derry Gaelic Athletic Association hurlers".
- On balance, I believe the titles and articles should reflect common naming and usage where possible. Editors can then get to the articles they want to see by searching using common terms and names. --HighKing (talk) 13:44, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
@ HK - no-one is arguing for the use of Londonderry in place of Derry in GAA articles and I did not blame nationalists, I was explaining a short history for those editors who have voted who may not understand the history in regards to why the GAA call it Derry, and that Brocach's "GAA county" appears to be more or less a neologism.
@ BHG - 5 other editors agree with this proporsal, so obviously other editors feel similar to me. The reason for my long post above and the focus on "GAA county" is that outside of Brocach and LL's naming issue with each other, I was involved in a separate specific naming issue revolving around Brocach and Derry GAA articles that ended up having to be lumped into this one as the results of this would obviously affect it.
"In naming articles, we use the WP:COMMONNAME and disambiguate as needed. So the article title spells out the name in full ("Derry GAA") ... but when the context is clear, we can skip the GAA bit. So if a paragraph in some non-GAA context makes a passing ref, we spell out "Derry GAA" in full ... but if it is in a GAA context, we can skip the GAA bit." - I have no problem with that, however to clarify: if a non-GAA has the following link: "List_of_Gaelic_games_clubs_in_Ireland#Derry" we pipe it "List_of_Gaelic_games_clubs_in_Ireland#Derry GAA"? Mabuska (talk) 12:21, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- You suggestion about non-GAA contexts I think is a good one and should be expanded (although I don't think adding "GAA" is the correct disambiguation, I'd rather spell it out in full). --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- I really have to question the motives of the 11 opposed to this suggestion. Doesnt make sense really.
- @HK, for people who know what hurling is would be those in the minority given that GAA is not a globally played sport. My first thoughts would be Paddy McCourt if someone mentioned 'Derry footballer', thats why I would of thought appending 'GAA' makes sense. Avoids any confusion that people might think that the Governmental County is called Derry and removes ambiguity. Simple. So if the 11 opposed could change their votes, that would be great.Factocop (talk) 12:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Please read fully what I actually said. If you don't know what "hurling" is, appending "GAA" doesn't help explain anything. As to the point about generating confusion around the county getting named as "Derry", I have some sympathy for that. But we've other compromises (even worse in my opinion) that editors just get on with - the naming of the article "Republic of Ireland" springs to mind when the correct name is just simply "Ireland". The "true name" or even the COMMONNAME sometimes isn't even enough... --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Don't forget ignoring the correct name and true name of Londonderry which is ignored aswell. Your right that simply 'GAA' will not help those who do not know what 'GAA' is and so perhaps in that case expand to the full Gaelic Athletic Association. HK, what exactly your reason for opposition? you seem to have provided a reasoning and understanding for the proposal but have opposed it non the less. The problem here is that GAA is probably known by about 6million people, and 6 billion have never heard of the sport.Factocop (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Don't jump into speculation and original research Factocop.
- Whilst it is off-topic, that RoI issue isn't quite a problem elsewhere on Wikipedia, for example the United Mexican States, Hellenic Republic, People's Republic of China, and the Republic of China to name some states. Though as stated that is off-topic.
- On topic, that suggestion I made is based on what BHG said in response to my reasoning's for this proposal, and it should be implemented in non-GAA related articles where a link or category may crop up as it would likely be out of context. Though Facotcop makes a good point on Paddy McCourt - he is a "Derry footballer" as in a soccer/football player from Londonderry - it can lead to confusion if using "Derry footballer" on it's own when referring to the Derry GAA. Mabuska (talk) 16:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe use "Derry Gaelic footballer" to disambiguate? Mabuska (talk) 16:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Don't forget ignoring the correct name and true name of Londonderry which is ignored aswell. Your right that simply 'GAA' will not help those who do not know what 'GAA' is and so perhaps in that case expand to the full Gaelic Athletic Association. HK, what exactly your reason for opposition? you seem to have provided a reasoning and understanding for the proposal but have opposed it non the less. The problem here is that GAA is probably known by about 6million people, and 6 billion have never heard of the sport.Factocop (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps this proposals needs to be modified.Factocop (talk) 17:24, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Proposal 3 is: '"X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers"'. If that were adopted, there would be no need to make Derry an exception.
- As regards
[[List of Gaelic games clubs in Ireland#Derry|List of Derry GAA clubs]]
, would it not be simpler just to take that link out of the "See also's" altogether? I really don't see what it adds. If the link is to remain, it cannot have "#Derry GAA" in it without changing the section heading in the List to "Derry GAA", which would leave it out of synch with the other section headings. For that reason, I prefer BrownHairedGirl's proposal (the one I've just cited). Scolaire (talk) 18:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal 7
The scope of the category structure "Sportspeople from County Foo" (e.g. Category:Sportspeople from County Galway) should be defined as "Notable sportspeople who were born in the Irish county of Foo". This structure to be independent of the GAA county structure. So a person can be born in one county but may play for a different (or multiple) GAA county (e.g. Tony Reddin). Furthermore, the structure to permit the creation of categories for all modern administrative counties (e.g. Fingal, South Dublin and North Tipperary) as well as the "traditional" counties.
Support
- Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mabuska (talk) 16:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Oppose
- Wrong venue, see Discussion Brocach (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Scolaire (talk) 09:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC).
- Qetuth (talk) 14:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Finnegas (talk) 14:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hohenloh + 18:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- RashersTierney (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
@Laurel Lodged, as this is not a discussion about GAA categories it does not belong here. Please find an appropriate venue and alert the Irish sports talk pages, to see how many people share your enthusiasm for splitting or multiplying "Sportspeople from County Dublin" into "Sportspeople from Final", "Sportspeople from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" and "Sportspeople from Dublin" (and so on). But you may know the answer to that. Brocach (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree that this is the wrong venue. I think it's exactly the right venue and if the idea is a poor one, the opposes will outnumber the supports. Don't stifle discussion - let it happen (as has been going on very fruitfully so far) and allow the consensus to emerge (as is also occurring.) I don't doubt that the collective wisdom here will see us through, but that means allowing a range of questions to be put, to see which do and which do not gather support. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 00:00, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Strange, Brocach, because this is in fact your question 2, part 2! The Banner talk 01:10, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- No it isn't. I didn't have any "question 2, part 2". And this is a GAA talk page, while this proposal relates to all sportspeople including garrison games. Brocach (talk) 01:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Your question two, with the second part in bold: (2) All categories covering people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should continue to be named in the long-established format ["GAA county name" "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."], e.g. "Tipperary footballers", "Wexford camogie players", "Derry hurlers" etc., reflecting the fact that the team name is the name of the GAA county (e.g. Tipperary) without either the addition of "GAA" ("Tipperary GAA hurlers"), or diversion to sub-categories relating to modern administrative counties ("North Tipperary", "South Tipperary", "Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" etc.). The same would apply to generic categories such as "Sportspeople from County Tipperary": a sportsperson who played on a representative team for his/her GAA county would be listed in the traditional 32-county category rather than in the modern administrative subdivision. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Read it again, slowly: what I said was completely different from what Laurel Lodged proposes; I want the 32 traditional counties, he wants your Fingals and South Tipps. This is not my proposal, I don't support it and I don't agree with Kim that a GAA talk page is a good venue to discuss a generic sports category. Brocach (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Your question two, with the second part in bold: (2) All categories covering people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should continue to be named in the long-established format ["GAA county name" "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."], e.g. "Tipperary footballers", "Wexford camogie players", "Derry hurlers" etc., reflecting the fact that the team name is the name of the GAA county (e.g. Tipperary) without either the addition of "GAA" ("Tipperary GAA hurlers"), or diversion to sub-categories relating to modern administrative counties ("North Tipperary", "South Tipperary", "Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" etc.). The same would apply to generic categories such as "Sportspeople from County Tipperary": a sportsperson who played on a representative team for his/her GAA county would be listed in the traditional 32-county category rather than in the modern administrative subdivision. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- No it isn't. I didn't have any "question 2, part 2". And this is a GAA talk page, while this proposal relates to all sportspeople including garrison games. Brocach (talk) 01:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for that timely intervention Kim. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:46, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Strange, Brocach, because this is in fact your question 2, part 2! The Banner talk 01:10, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- This is a horrible idea. We have never agreed that "x sportspeople" should be limited to people born there. On the other hand, we have guidelines that say the location of birth is generally trivial. We categorize people by where they were raised. Thus someone born to the US Ambassador to Turkey in Ankara, but raised in New Jersey goes in from New Jersey categories, not categories related to being from Ankara. On the other hand, if someone was born in Washington DC because their father was the Irish Ambassador to the US, but was raised in Dublin, I see no reason why they should not be classified as a sportperson from Dublin.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Suppose the ambassador's son played hurling. Suppose futher that the ambassador was posted to the UN in New York for a term of 3 years. Suppose further that the son played hurling in Gaelic Park, the Bronx for New York GAA. Is such a notable person entitled to be included in the category Category:New York hurlers? Is he entitled to be a member of Category:Sportspeople from New York? Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- As far as I can see this proposal is not about GAA, GAA having been covered in the earlier proposals. Nor do I see Irish sportpeople in general being categorised by "GAA counties", just by counties. I oppose this because neither has it anything to to with generally accepted and well recognised WP conventions.
It is just one editor desperately looking for an opportunity to ride his own little hobby-horse, since he's been threatened with an indef block if he causes further disruption by indulging his obsession in the way he has usually done in the past.It is normal in the real world, as well as on WP, to refer to the traditional counties of Ireland, not current administrative divisions. Scolaire (talk) 09:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Query Is it correct that Tony Reddin is in the "Sportspeople from County Galway" category? If it is not correct, should he be in the "Sportspeople from County Tipperary" category? Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- I support this question, as it supports more sports then GAA-sports or Brocachs "garrison sports" (whatever he may mean with that). It also includes table tennis, boxing, sailing, athletics, American Football, sumo wrestling, skating, weight lifting and so on. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
It seems to be the case that the rationale for Brocach's vote and Scolaire's vote was that the proposal ought not to be present. Kim has ruled that it ought to be present. The basis for the oppose votes has therefore disappeared. I would ask both to strike their votes. Should they later wish to insert later votes, they're welcome to do so - on the merits or demerits of the the proposal. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- No. I have said that your question should remain and they have opposed your suggestion. I infer that they would prefer the question not be asked, but seeing as it has been they are not in favour. You don't have to agree that their arguments for opposing are sound or even logical. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 13:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Comment. This proposal may be in the wrong place, but it s misconceived wherever it is. There is a long-standing consensus at CFD against categorising people by where they were born. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence, "the place of birth is rarely notable". The same guideline notes that People are sometimes categorized by notable residence, in the form People from Foo (not "Natives of Foo"), regardless of ethnicity, heritage, or nationality.
So, let's take the fictional example of Sean Citizen. Sean's parents lived in County Leitrim, which has no general hospital, so he was born in Sligo General Hospital, and he lived in Leitrim until he was 4. He then moved with his family to County Clare, where he went to school in Ennis. Having done well in his Leaving Cert, Sean studied Ology at a university in Dublin, and he got his first job in Cork city, where he lived for 7 years. Aged nearly 30, Sean moved to Dundalk, where he spent the rest of his life. In Dundalk, he realised that his long-standing attempts to get onto a local club's Gaelic Football team were futile, so he took to studying team management. After a few years of managing a local club which he took from no-hope status to the county championship, Sean became manager of the Louth county team. The team's improved standing under his management generated quite a bit of news coverage over the years.
Now, which county was Sean from? Leitrim, Sligo, Clare, Dublin, Cork or Louth?
Answer: Louth. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence, it is is Sean's only "notable residence". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Query Do you propose to insert this incisive scope definition into each member of the "Sportspeople from..." tree structure? Remind me to amend the Ryan Giggs article. Apparently some editors think that he's a sportsperson from Wales. We now know that he's actually a sportsperson from Manchester. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Not a great example; he clearly belongs in Welsh categories as well, since he plays for Wales. Closer to home, a Gaelic footballer who has played for two counties appears in both "Sportspeople from" categories. Brocach (talk) 17:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- @LL, I'm not to to be able to support your desire to categorise Sean Citizen on the basis of his two-day stay in Sligo General. Butit ain't defining.
- I do not intend to insert that explanation anywhere other than here. It is simply an illustration of a point clearly made in an existing guideline, so there is no point in repeating it elsewhere, particularly since it seems to be only LL who has a problem with understanding the status quo.
- As to Ryan Giggs, there is no need to edit his article, nor the article on any other sportsperson. But Category:Manchester United F.C. players should be a subacat of Category:Sportspeople from Manchester, just as Category:Dublin hurlers is a subcat of Category:Sportspeople from County Dublin. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
- I had a look at the ManU site for their First Team. I scanned the first 6 players before I got bored. They are Ángelo Henríquez (Chilian national), David De Gea (Spanish national), Rafael (Brazilian national), Patrice Evra (Senegalese national), Phil Jones (British national), Rio Ferdinand (British national). Despite the fact that some of them are British nationals, none used the "Sportspeople from Manchester" cat. Only Rio used the "Sportspeople from" cat, but that was for London. Is that because he was born in Peckham do you think? Even Matt Busby has Category:Sportspeople from Bellshill in his cat list, not Manchester. Yet you would have us force every player for the ManU to be a member of "Sportspeople from Manchester". Wow. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Not that I know or care much about ground football, the MUFC players category belongs to the "Sportspeople from Manchester" category. Where the players concerned are listed in categories as having played for other clubs, say Liverpool, those club categories should also belong to e.g. "Sportspeople from Liverpool". Many sportspeople will belong - directly, or by reference to a club affiliation - to two or more "from" categories. Brocach (talk) 22:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- LL, did you set out to misrepresent me, or did you just not bother to read what I wrote?
- Brocach gets the point quite clearly. It's about parenting categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:59, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- LL actually has it right on this one. Matt Busby is in Category:Sportspeople from Bellshill, Michael Carrick is in Category:Sportspeople from Newcastle upon Tyne, and Graham Lee (jockey), who has not played any competitive sport for Galway, is in Category:Sportspeople from County Galway. If this proposal gets consensus, there is no reason why Eamonn Coghlan should not be in "Category:Sportspeople from Fingal". If this proposal gets consensus. Scolaire (talk) 00:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Eamonn Coghlan was born and raised in Drimnagh and retired from running in 1988, before Fingal was created in 1993. What's his Fingal connection? Snappy (talk) 00:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- My mistake. He lives or lived in Castleknock before or after Fingal was created. Change it to "Seán Citizen", then. Scolaire (talk) 01:08, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Scolaire, even if LL did achieve a local consenus here, this page can't override Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence. And AFAICS, none of your examples are of someone who was just born in a place. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- I probably should have kept my mouth shut! Yes, I agree 100% about "just born in a place". Paul McGrath is in Category:Sportspeople from Dublin (city) although he was born in England. To that extent, the wording of the proposal is against Naming conventions. But the proposal itself is about where people are "from" – however you read that – not what teams they played for. I felt that all the talk about cats and subcats and soccer clubs was muddying the waters. My intention was to draw a line under all that. Maybe we can draw a line under it now. Scolaire (talk) 09:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Oops! Paul McGrath is in Category:Sportspeople from London too. Yes, I definitely think we should draw a line under this. Scolaire (talk) 10:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- When Scolaire says "draw a line under", what he really means is "let's brush this under the carpet". This is because the addition of soccer has forced editors to think outside the hermeticaly sealed world of the GAA. In so doing, they have been faced with the realisation that the innovative categorisation BHG would have us use is just wrong. "From" really does mean from. "Played a significant part of their career in" is fine, but it's not what the category is for. To claim that the scope of the category structure is the latter is to pervert it's obvious and simple structure. The ManU examples demonstrate that not one ManU fan (and I believe that there might possibly be more of them than there are of all GAA fans put together) believes that "Sportspeople from Foo" relates to the club. To say otherwise is to introduce OR. Naturally, if it's wrong for Ryan Giggs, it's also wrong for Tony Reddin. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- LL, if you had read what I wrote you woukd see that there is nothing innovative in what I propose. I am simply drawing attention to a long-standing categorisation guideline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence. Please take the time to read it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:02, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- In a touching effort to bolster BHG's flagging argument, Brocach has added ManU FC as a child of "Sportspeople from Manchester". Touching as this may be, does the community consider this to be an out-of-process move that is unhelpful to the discussion? Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Stop being a silly drama queen. Nothing was moved, so the question of out-of-process does not arise. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:30, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- In a touching effort to bolster BHG's flagging argument, Brocach has added ManU FC as a child of "Sportspeople from Manchester". Touching as this may be, does the community consider this to be an out-of-process move that is unhelpful to the discussion? Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Oops! Paul McGrath is in Category:Sportspeople from London too. Yes, I definitely think we should draw a line under this. Scolaire (talk) 10:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- I probably should have kept my mouth shut! Yes, I agree 100% about "just born in a place". Paul McGrath is in Category:Sportspeople from Dublin (city) although he was born in England. To that extent, the wording of the proposal is against Naming conventions. But the proposal itself is about where people are "from" – however you read that – not what teams they played for. I felt that all the talk about cats and subcats and soccer clubs was muddying the waters. My intention was to draw a line under all that. Maybe we can draw a line under it now. Scolaire (talk) 09:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Scolaire, even if LL did achieve a local consenus here, this page can't override Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence. And AFAICS, none of your examples are of someone who was just born in a place. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- My mistake. He lives or lived in Castleknock before or after Fingal was created. Change it to "Seán Citizen", then. Scolaire (talk) 01:08, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Eamonn Coghlan was born and raised in Drimnagh and retired from running in 1988, before Fingal was created in 1993. What's his Fingal connection? Snappy (talk) 00:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- LL actually has it right on this one. Matt Busby is in Category:Sportspeople from Bellshill, Michael Carrick is in Category:Sportspeople from Newcastle upon Tyne, and Graham Lee (jockey), who has not played any competitive sport for Galway, is in Category:Sportspeople from County Galway. If this proposal gets consensus, there is no reason why Eamonn Coghlan should not be in "Category:Sportspeople from Fingal". If this proposal gets consensus. Scolaire (talk) 00:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Not that I know or care much about ground football, the MUFC players category belongs to the "Sportspeople from Manchester" category. Where the players concerned are listed in categories as having played for other clubs, say Liverpool, those club categories should also belong to e.g. "Sportspeople from Liverpool". Many sportspeople will belong - directly, or by reference to a club affiliation - to two or more "from" categories. Brocach (talk) 22:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- I had a look at the ManU site for their First Team. I scanned the first 6 players before I got bored. They are Ángelo Henríquez (Chilian national), David De Gea (Spanish national), Rafael (Brazilian national), Patrice Evra (Senegalese national), Phil Jones (British national), Rio Ferdinand (British national). Despite the fact that some of them are British nationals, none used the "Sportspeople from Manchester" cat. Only Rio used the "Sportspeople from" cat, but that was for London. Is that because he was born in Peckham do you think? Even Matt Busby has Category:Sportspeople from Bellshill in his cat list, not Manchester. Yet you would have us force every player for the ManU to be a member of "Sportspeople from Manchester". Wow. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Per the strictures (below) of Kim, I am limiting what I say here to one new comment: There is obviously minimal support for limiting this category to birthplace in respect of GAA sportspeople, but I do not believe that a consensus here on what Laurel Lodged characterises as a tumbleweed page should bind all WP users (very few of whom will have seen this) in respect of other countries and sports. Birthplace is kind of significant in respect of the GAA in ways that do not apply in respect of commercially run sports; in almost every case the birth county is the same as the played-for county, but (in the GAA at least) it is important to provide flexibility for those who play at inter-county level for more than one county. Brocach (talk) 19:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
As I write this, the actual voting is 2 in favour of this proposal, 9 against. I see no evidence of anyone's mind being changed by the exchanges above so can I ask that you think very carefully before adding further to this discussion. Thus far it seems wildly unlikely that extending it will change the voting. It does however seem likely that further contributions will become more and more tendentious and argumentative. If anyone has any new lines of argument to pursue, or if new voters feel the need to explain their votes, no problem. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 14:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'll just add that these categories stem from LL's desire to use the administrative counties wherever a location calls for a name. Just noticed that the "An Post" website has a "Check an address" page. I note that any address in say, Nenagh, is listed as "Co. Tipperary". The town council is also listed as Co. Tipperary. Fingal County Council offices are also listed as Co. Dublin. I believe that it's too early to use the newer administrative county names as they haven't caught on, and COMMONNAMES are the traditional county names. --HighKing (talk) 14:03, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- What an interesting but inaccurate opinion! Nenagh: Nenagh (...) is the county town of North Tipperary in Ireland. Nenagh County Council: That page is on a website marked Copyright © 2011, North Tipperary County Council. And have you ever realised that a postal adress does not have to reflect local boundaries or changed subdivisions? The Banner talk 14:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ho Hum. So rather than comment on the Postal Addresses I've linked to that all use "Co. Tipperary" or "Co. Dublin", you'd rather label it as "interesting but inaccurate opinion". How can it be an opinion if it's listed exactly as I've described? Maybe everyone's "opinion" is inaccurate? Note that I didn't say that the name of the council wasn't North Tipperary or Fingal, but that the postal address or "location" still uses the traditional county name (or COMMONNAME). --HighKing (talk) 14:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing, I fear that you are wasting your time trying to point LL to WP:COMMONNAME. He remains fixated on the view that current administrative counties are the only "real" counties, and the counties in common usage don't exist. It's bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- We're going off topic a bit, but I wonder how some editors will cope in 2014 when North and South Tipperary County Councils and their respective counties are abolished, and County Tipperary rises again! Snappy (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- HighKing, I fear that you are wasting your time trying to point LL to WP:COMMONNAME. He remains fixated on the view that current administrative counties are the only "real" counties, and the counties in common usage don't exist. It's bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ho Hum. So rather than comment on the Postal Addresses I've linked to that all use "Co. Tipperary" or "Co. Dublin", you'd rather label it as "interesting but inaccurate opinion". How can it be an opinion if it's listed exactly as I've described? Maybe everyone's "opinion" is inaccurate? Note that I didn't say that the name of the council wasn't North Tipperary or Fingal, but that the postal address or "location" still uses the traditional county name (or COMMONNAME). --HighKing (talk) 14:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- What an interesting but inaccurate opinion! Nenagh: Nenagh (...) is the county town of North Tipperary in Ireland. Nenagh County Council: That page is on a website marked Copyright © 2011, North Tipperary County Council. And have you ever realised that a postal adress does not have to reflect local boundaries or changed subdivisions? The Banner talk 14:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Closed grouping
Seeing as the the results of this will no doubt be enshrined in IMoS and proposal 5 currently directly affects IMoS in regards to the Derry issue as far as I am aware I am placing notifications in the Ireland, IMoS, and Northern Ireland WikiProjects as this WikiProject will have too select a grouping following it. Mabuska (talk) 12:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for notifying the other projects. It was never the intention to make this a select grouping; the more input there is the better for everybody. I do, however, wish you could have posted a neutrally worded notice and avoided expressing your own personal feelings. You have already expressed them here.
By the way, I don't know of any WP process for "enshrining" results. How is this generally done, and is it a multi-denominational procedure?Scolaire (talk) 13:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Humour is difficult to pitch correctly, let's stay serious. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 08:22, 2 February 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Move to close
It's been over 12 hours since the last vote or discussion contribution here, I propose to close these discussions tonight (not less than eight hours from this timestamp) unless there is a dramatic upsurge in voting or discussion. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 11:28, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Categories for Hurling clubs in Ireland
Category:Hurling clubs in Northern Ireland by county and Category:Hurling clubs in the Republic of Ireland by county, which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for merger to a new Category:Hurling clubs in Ireland. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
GAA club championships categories
Category:Antrim GAA club championships and 31 other similar categories (all sub-categories of Category:GAA County Championships), which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for renaming from X GAA club championships
to the title X GAA County Championships
. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- See also a slightly-related proposal at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 February 2#County_Football_Championships_by_year. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
Conclusion of GAA categorisation discussion
First of all, thank you everyone for a carefully and civilly conducted discussion. This arose from a rather less ordered AN/I discussion which I closed with the request to discuss the naming and categorising conventions here.
I judge that proposals 1, 2,4,5 and 7 had an undeniable consensus or even unanimity. Proposal 3 was in my opinion also carried by consensus. That leaves proposal 6. I was persuaded by the arguments against making an exception for Derry GAA and there was a clear majority against the proposal. However it was a less than 2:1 majority, there were a total of only 17 editors voting and the subject touches on one of the most sensitive naming policies on Wikipedia. So I propose to refer on the decision on whether or not an exception should be made for GAA categories relating to this county. I will post a request at the IMOS talk page summarising the agreed results and asking for a decision about the Derry/Derry GAA problem.
While I think the decision here on proposals 1-5 and 7 is uncontroversial, please do NOT start implementing this until folks at IMOS have had their say. I said at AN/I that I would block anyone making changes to categories before final agreed consensus and that still holds good. I will summarise below the agreed proposals and provide a link to the IMOS talk page discussion. The agreed, defeated and no-consensus proposals will be copied to the IMOS talk page.
Agreed proposals
- Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X Intermediate Football Championship", not ""X GAA Intermediate Football Championship", unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.
- Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not include the (transient) sponsor name, unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.
- Titles of categories of people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X hurlers", not "X GAA hurlers"; "X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers".
- Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should be categorised according to the county for which the player played, i.e. "Category: X GAA hurlers" or "Category: X hurlers" should include people who have hurled for X, regardless of their place of birth or residence. Players who have played for more than one county should be included in both county categories. Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not be categorised according to the county in which the player was born or the county or counties in which they resided during their playing career.
- In any of the above cases, the county in question should be the GAA county, not the "current administrative" county, i.e. "Tipperary", not "South Tipperary"; "Dublin", not "Fingal".
Defeated proposal
- The scope of the category structure "Sportspeople from County Foo" (e.g. Category:Sportspeople from County Galway) should be defined as "Notable sportspeople who were born in the Irish county of Foo". This structure to be independent of the GAA county structure. So a person can be born in one county but may play for a different (or multiple) GAA county (e.g. Tony Reddin). Furthermore, the structure to permit the creation of categories for all modern administrative counties (e.g. Fingal, South Dublin and North Tipperary) as well as the "traditional" counties.
No-consensus proposal
- Derry GAA should be exempted from all the above proposals, and IMoS should be amended to clarify as such.
Thank you again for a calmly conducted discussion on a topic where I know feelings were running high. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 22:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)