Talk:Chelsea Manning

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request is the initial move of the article to "Chelsea Manning" is reverted, returning the article to the original title, "Bradley Manning.

The panel of administrators convened to review and close this discussion has unanimously reached the following determinations regarding this requested move:

1. The title of the page prior to the events in dispute was "Bradley Manning"; this was a long-term, stable title, and the brief and limited discussion prior to the initial page move to "Chelsea Manning" does not constitute the formation of community consensus to move the page. Therefore, the default title of the page absent a consensus to move the page is "Bradley Manning".
2. The discussion following the move request provided a clear absence of consensus for the page to be moved from "Bradley Manning" to "Chelsea Manning".
3. WP:BLP is applicable to article titles and the desire to avoid harming the subject presents a reasonable basis for supporting "Chelsea Manning" as the title; however, BLP does not require having "Chelsea Manning" as the title. It is not a BLP violation to maintain the title at "Bradley Manning" so long as the prior use of this name by the subject is public knowledge and can be found in reliable sources. Furthermore, the application of BLP to avoid harming the subject is mitigated by the subject's own acknowledgment that "Bradley Manning" will continue to be used in various fora, and by the fact that the name, "Bradley Manning", will inevitably appear prominently in the article lede. Therefore, BLP is not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".
4. MOS:IDENTITY is not expressly applicable to article titles, and is therefore not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".. The panel acknowledges that MOS:IDENTITY is applicable to pronouns as used in the article, and that the reversion of this title in no way implies that the subject should be addressed in the article by masculine pronouns. Although some may perceive this as leading to incongruity between the subject's name and the pronouns used throughout the article, such incongruity appears in numerous articles about subjects whose common name appears to differ from their gender.
5. WP:COMMONNAME remains the basic principle by which article titles are chosen. This policy provides several factors which are weighed in the determination of a proper article title. In the requested move discussion, a number of editors noted that "Bradley Manning" was the name under which the subject became notable and performed the actions which led to her notability; and that readers interested in these actions would be likely to search for this subject under the name, "Bradley Manning". Competing examples were provided of some reliable sources changing their usage, while some retained their previous usage. The change that did occur was not sufficient to persuade the majority of editors, including some who indicated that their minds could be changed by sufficient evidence of changed usage. Although WP:COMMONAME provides that "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change", it does not provide that no weight should be given to reliable sources published before the name change. The total mass of sources is weighted towards "Bradley Manning", and it is too soon to determine whether usage following the subject's announced name change represent an enduring trend, or a blip occasioned by reports in the news surrounding the name change itself.
6. A comparatively small number of editors premised their opinions solely on Manning's legal or biological state. These arguments are not based on anything in Wikipedia's policies, and are contrary to numerous precedents. Such arguments were expressly discounted in this determination.
7. A number of editors who supported reverting the title back to "Bradley Manning" also expressed the opinion that the common name of the subject is likely to change over a relatively short time span, this close is without prejudice to a new proposal to move the page to "Chelsea Manning" being initiated no less than thirty days^* from the date of this determination, at which point those advocating the move of this page will be able to present all evidence that may arise during that time demonstrating a change in the common name of this subject as used by reliable sources. In the interim, editors may propose moving the page to a compromise title such as "Private Manning" or "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning".

^* The sole point as to which the closing administrators were not unanimous was the length of time that should be required to pass before a new move request to "Chelsea Manning" is proposed; one member of the panel would have required ninety days.

This was by no means an easy process, and the closing administrators recognize that any conclusion to this discussion would engender further controversy; however, we are in agreement that this result is the only proper interpretation of the discussion conducted with respect to this dispute. bd2412 T 03:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

---

Note: After carefully considering the proposal made on my talk page, I have moved this discussion to: Talk:Chelsea Manning/August 2013 move request.

This move serves two purposes. First, it reduces the massive size of this talk page (the move discussion is well over 500,000 bytes). Second, it makes it very clear that the discussion has concluded, and further comments are to be made elsewhere. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Note the panel is (BD2412 (talk · contribs), BOZ (talk · contribs), Kww (talk · contribs)) NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Adding a future date so this doesn't get auto-archived. 23:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportfan5000 (talk • contribs)

In the future you can use {{DNAU}} for that. NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Mention of parole in lead

Hi Srich, I restored the sentence in the lead about the parole: "She was sentenced to 35 years in prison and a dishonorable discharge, but with credit for time served and good behavior could be released on parole after eight years." It seems important to make clear that she won't actually serve 35 years.

Also, "sentenced to ... a dishonorable discharge" is worded that way because she hasn't actually been discharged. Another editor who has some expertise in this decided that was the best way to word it, rather than "given an dishonorable discharge," which implies that the discharge has taken place. What do you think? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:59, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

But there is no guarantee that she won't serve 35 years (less time served credit). Parole/good behavior credits are largely discretionary and it is entirely possible that she will have to serve the entire sentence in confinement. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:21, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL #1 applies. The credit for time served is there, but it does not reduce the sentence issued. Basically the credit means the sentence of 35 years starts at the pre-trial detention date. There is no certainty about parole, early release, pardon, etc. in the future. Using the wording of "could be" should not be included as part of the sentence. Also, NxS Baranof's comments are correct – we don't know how long Manning will actually serve. We do know what term of imprisonment as punishment the court issued. (The DD is virtually certain to be given, but as a matter of procedure the paperwork has not been issued. That question is not a big deal IMO, as we are unlikely to learn exactly when the GCMCA approves the sentence, etc.) In any event, I am satisfied with SlimVirgin's version. – S. Rich (talk) 03:36, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Just an FYI, the DD will likely not be issued until the period of confinement is completed, if the Army follows its normal practice. GregJackP Boomer! 10:19, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

It might be possible she will have to serve all 35 years but it is also seems important to mention she may be released after a minimum of eight years.--Space simian (talk) 12:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Srich and others for the feedback. NxS, just noting that I restored the tighter language. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:51, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

And I slightly tweaked it to identify the ambiguity - she could be released after as few as eight years, which identifies that it could also be somewhere in between. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:20, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I changed the wording to reflect the actual sentencing. A military sentence is "confinement". The sentence verbiage from the judge is "sentences you to be reduced to the grade of Private E1, to forfeit all pay and allowances, to be confined for 35 years and to be dishonorably discharged from the service." The credit is worded as "PFC Manning will be credited with 1,182 days of pre-trial confinement and 112 days of Article 13 credit for a total of 1,294 days of sentence credit." The dishonorable discharge occurs when confinement ends, not necessarily when the sentence ends (i.e. she has a dishonorable discharge when she is paroled, too). "She will be confined to the disciplinary barracks in Ft. Leavenworth, KS" comports itself better with military-speak. --DHeyward (talk) 09:17, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, I think the review of sentence can take 6 months but since confinement is longer than that, it's a rubber stamp. The DD will happen, too, but there won't be a period of non-confinement that happens before the review is complete so it's a non-issue. I believe reduction in rank and pay forfeiture doesn't start until 14 days after sentencing which is why the credit statement still had PFC. Don't have a good source to quote though so I didn't add any detail about that. Those dates have passed so Pvt Manning is accurate now. --DHeyward (talk) 09:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

The use of Chelsea and the word she when referencing to Bradley Manning

Should the article not use the legal first name Bradley instead of Chelsea, even if he wishes to be called Chelsea. Since he has not had a legal name change wouldn't it be more in line with BLP?? TucsonDavidU.S.A. 15:00, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

No. This has already been discussed endlessly. Do we use the legal name for Cat Stevens, Snoop Dogg and a whole load of other ppl? No, we use the name they are known by. And any BLP vio is in not using Chelsea not in not using Bradley. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Please remember that consensus can change, so the question of which name to use can be reopened by anyone at any time. Further, WP:DEADHORSE is an essay (the views of some unspecified number of editors), and does not necessarily reflect consensus. I do not think WP:DEADHORSE is a valid rationale for closing a discussion. CaseyPenk (talk) 20:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Maybe but all the same neither BLP nor wikipedia demand that we use legal names so its a valid close IMO. Of course you could try to change the naming policy and demand we use legal names for ALL living people though it would be problematic for articles like Mikhail Gorbachev whose legal name will be unreadable to readers used to a western script. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 21:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Funny how you invoke "consensus can change" when the consensus is to use Chelsea Manning in the lede, but God forbid anyone try to reopen the move discussion for a month. The only reason the 3-admin panel's request has any force is... yes, that's right, consensus. Can't that consensus change, too? Or are you saying that some consensuses are allowed to change but others aren't? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Its not a requirement to use legal names, but it is a requirement to use the name that the individual goes by on a daily basis and is called by everyone around him/her.--JOJ ^Hutton 23:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

That is clearly not so, Jojhutton, eg Cat Stevens is known as Yusuf Islam on a daily basis and used by those in his daily life but we still call him Cat Stevens♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 23:28, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Cat Stevens is known by his stage name, not his legal name. You compare apples and oranges here.TMCk (talk) 23:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

That's not right. He hasn't used Cat Stevens in 30 years or something. I don't really know why we think it makes sense to use that title, but it isn't because it's the name he is called by. Formerip (talk) 00:40, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

"...it is a requirement to use the name that the individual goes by on a daily basis and is called by everyone around him/her." So are you claiming that prison guards get to decide the name of their prisoners? That makes zero sense and has zero grounding in Wikipedia policy or precedent. Her friends and family, so far as we know, now call her Chelsea and she uses Chelsea on a daily basis, so far as we know. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:37, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

A prison guard doesn't decide. They're obligated to use the prisoners legal name (or at least their nick).TMCk (talk) 23:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

And thus we go around in a circle, because there is no requirement that Wikipedia use legal names. Claiming that Wikipedia should be required to use the name that prison guards are obligated to use because it is her legal name is nonsensical circular logic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say that at all. I simply responded to your comment and gave a clarifying response. Don't put words in my writing that are not there.TMCk (talk) 23:54, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say that you said it - I am pointing out that it is one of the logical problems with the originally-quoted assertion, if what you say is true. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure the article will end up being titled Chelsea. My problem is with the re-writing of past events before the name change. Why isn't there more acknowledgment of the NLGJA policy? A spokesperson for the group said it would recommend “he” for historical reference: “When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time. For example: Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley, came out as transgender last week. In a statement, Manning said she had felt this way since childhood. Manning grew up in Oklahoma. In middle school, he was very outspoken in class about government issues and religious beliefs, friends said.”

The full article is here. We need to respect history. The "she" pronoun should not be applied retrospectively. - Gothicfilm (talk) 23:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree with and endorse Gothicfilm's view.TMCk (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistency of pronouns will just confuse our readers, let us remember we are building an encyclopedia before anything else♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:05, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

(EC) The opposite can be or is quite more confusing. I know it is a challenge but as long as the intro gives readers the basics of his personal feelings of being in a wrong body, that confusion is gone. That's the basic problem and case here: "He" has a male body all his live, was treated as such and just recently made it public that he felt like a woman early on in his live. A self proclaimed name change doesn't change the past, just more than likely the near future.TMCk (talk) 00:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

When building an encyclopedia we should respect history before anything else. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:20, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

If you want to make this a policy for all transgender ppl you need to address policies and guidelines, this isnt the place to do that. In the meantime we should follow policies and guidelines and use she throughout this article♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

There is disagreement about which policies apply and how, thus this is a legit topic for this talkpage.TMCk (talk) 00:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

The pronoun guideline is unambiguous, so there's no disagreement on whether and how it applies. If you don't agree with that guideline, there's no point in objecting on individual article talk pages. Go to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style instead. – Smyth\^talk 17:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Is it, really?. Noticed the tag?TMCk (talk) 21:22, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Would that be the tag that states: Until the dispute is resolved by consensus, it is recommended that the guideline remain in effect.? Said dispute would be at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, as Smyth indicated, would it not? Dolescum (talk) 23:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

If there is a dispute over there about mentioned guideline, should we just ignore it and play along like nothing is happening? And should we take that guideline as granted and as the only one that applies here? That's the point I was making and you're responding to.TMCk (talk) 23:53, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

To do anything else is to preempt the result of the dispute, is it not? No-one knows what consensus will emerge as a result, so business as usual and patience in the meantime, no? Dolescum (talk) 00:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Patience is exactly what I see a lack of in regards to the article. And again, and I pointed this out before in this thread, there is more than just this one guideline to think about. But apparently other guidelines and even policies are of no interest for some? We should look at all of them and also apply common sense which I don't see happening here. As I see it, there is more harm done in the name of "protection" than any good.TMCk (talk) 00:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
And BTW, you clearly avoided a direct response to my post.TMCk (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

It's also worth pointing out that of the 3+ discussions on WT:MOS about MOS:IDENTITY, the one(s) which pertain(s) to the paragraph on pronouns (rather than to the preceding paragraph) show little support for changing the paragraph, and much support for keeping it as it is. Hence I echo Smyth's comment of 17:19, 8 September 2013: the guideline is unambiguous and unambiguously applies, will continue to apply while it is being discussed, and seems unlikely to change. -sche (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

sche is correct. The current tag refers to an unrelated dispute. The pronoun guideline was already thoroughly discussed 2 weeks ago and resulted in a small majority to keep the current wording. – Smyth\^talk 10:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The issue of retrospective pronoun use was not settled there. "While there is no consensus to change the current wording, there may be room, as has been commented, for a separate discussion on how to deal with writing about gender specific past moments." - from the closing comment NO CONSENSUS TO ALTER MOS GUIDELINE. - Gothicfilm (talk) 18:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

• I just opened up a discussion to address this topic specifically. Please discuss the question of retroactive pronouns at the section specifically dedicated to that topic: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RfC on pronouns throughout life. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Trans woman

I agree with Two kinds of pork's addition of the linked phrase "trans woman" to the lede of this article. It explains to readers, very succinctly, why there have been both female and male names used for Manning, and may thus avert any reader confusion over the use of both names in the lede. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:44, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I think this is okay, Manning is now notable for both being a soldier and a trans woman who committed acts of espionage, and reliable sources demonstrate the notability of being trans♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't know the ins and outs (no pun intended) about the phases of trans people, but I took the syntax from another article which seems germane. It makes the article better because you don't have to explain the he she stuff. Two kinds of pork (talk) 00:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

This is nothing but activist editing, honestly. Notoriety for attempting to change one's name/gender following an espionage conviction is worlds apart from fame/notoriety as a trans woman. It is not at all appropriate for line 1, paragraph 1. Tarc (talk) 01:39, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

It's "activist editing" to help readers understand why Manning has two names, one male and one female? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Describing Two kinds of pork as a trans activist is just plain wrong, I dont see any activists anywhere near this edit♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

delete I'm honestly a bit torn. There has been a fair amount of coverage of the fact that Manning is TG, and what it means for the prison sentence, trans in the military, etc. But, Tarc has a good point - such coverage was intrinsically linked to Manning's espionage and sentencing the day before. We don't know if this will be a source of lasting notability though, or a flash in the pan. Again, given the current edit war, I'd suggest we keep it out per BRD, and revisit this after the move. I believe the article will move, and at that point it may be less important to note that Manning is a trans woman. The example of Elton John is apt - we don't mark sexual orientation nor even gender in the first line of most bios, and I don't see why we should do so here. Let's wait.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:57, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

The difference is that Elton John doesn't have two names. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

That is besides the point! But please indulge me. He was born "Reginald Kenneth Dwight". Did he legally change his name to the current or how did that happen? The article on him doesn't tell but since you brought it up as an example I assume you have this information. If so, please share.TMCk (talk) 02:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

To put a finer point on it - Elton John doesn't have two names of differing genders, which could create confusion among readers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:49, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Then why bring it up as an example???????????? There is no comparison, just apples and oranges again.TMCk (talk) 02:57, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Um, I didn't bring him up as an example. Obi-Wan Kenobi did. Slow your roll. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:41, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually it came from FormerIP's edit summary when they reverted.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

That edit implies the transgender issue had/has a role on his or her (you choose) notability and prosecution which of course is not the case. Very poor wording for the intro and shouldn't stay or be reinstated in such way.TMCk (talk) 02:11, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
And yes, it looks like an activist edit, no matter if it is one or not.TMCk (talk) 02:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm certainly no activist. However the Manning certainly is notable for coming out as a trans woman. Why? Because the sources covered this. But I agree with our resident Jedi that this can wait.Two kinds of pork (talk) 04:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Here's a nice comparison: James_Tiptree,_Jr. - clearly a male name, but article starts with a female name. This writer was simply better known by her male pseudonym. But we don't need to say "Alice was an author and a woman" - the reader gets it eventually in the last sentence.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 07:25, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

In your example the lead sentence contains "a pen name she used", which is analagous to "she was a woman and a writer". To put a finer point on it, confusion is diffused there, not in the next sentence.__Elaqueate (talk) 14:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Alice was not a trans woman, she was an author. This is, in part, why we should avoid examples that aren't about gender identity issues. Every case I've seen on Wikipedia, besides Manning, uses the new name and the new gender pronouns. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:49, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

The sources state she was a trans woman, so you are incorrect.Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:16, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

That she was transgender or just that she used a male pen name? Sportfan5000 (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 September 2013

 Done - I see the change has been made. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Simple change to the article Infobox: Instead of "{{Infobox" -> "{{Infobox person" Tiago Etiene Queiroz (talk) 01:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I believe it was done his way to avoid yet another name field, that would appear at the top if this were "infobox person", to bicker over. It looks fine the way it is. Tarc (talk) 02:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

moved to person and added military sub-box. I think it's a lot more maintainable this way. Let the bickering begin (again). --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I can't see any reason to change the infobox (to two infoboxes, in fact), and there's no need to keep on repeating the old name. Also, the increase in image size was too much. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The advantage is, you don't have the clunky "data1/label1" fields. The military info box means it is formatted like other soldiers' information. Finally, the image size was increased to reduce wrapping, I think it actually looked fine on my screen, I've seen even wider info boxes. It's not "keep on repeating the old name", an infobox regularly sums up important information about the subject. Why don't you share why exactly you think this should be the only infobox in wikipedia without a header option? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Obiwan, please don't start the serial reverting. You made a change and there is an objection to it. The image size is completely absurd looking. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:10, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree, lets wait on the dust to settle more. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

So why don't we just agree on what needs to lead the infobox. It's not that hard. The birth_name is also not up for debate - why delete that? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

the birth name is fine being placed back in, as for the infobox name what do you suggest? We could do "Private Manning" or just "Manning", I feel we should avoid having the name Bradley or Chelsea in for now at least. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:18, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The names are in the first sentence. Adding them again in close proximity looks gratuitous given that it's a sensitive issue. The infobox doesn't need a name. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think its gratuitous, and why avoid Bradley/Chelsea when we already have it in the title and the lede? it doesn't make sense? I think the compromise (Chelsea Manning (previously Bradley)) will help introduce the info box, and describe rapidly to the user that there was a name change. Birth_name is standard to place when the person in question has had a name change for whatever reason (esp if they are notable from their old name, which is the case here) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Im in favor of the birth name as that is pretty much straightforward but remain convinced we should wait on the infobox name header. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment on pronouns throughout life

Hello everyone - you are all invited to participate in a request for comment on whether or not to use the current preferred pronouns of a transgender person throughout that person's life. Please note that the request for comment applies to all articles about transgender people (not just this one), so please keep that in mind. Thank you. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:47, 9 September 2013 (UTC)