Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2013 November 3

3 November 2013

John Schlossberg

John Schlossberg (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This article had sufficient GNG sources. WP:INHERIT doesn't censor WP:GNG sources, rather it's an essay on arguments for Wikipedian's themselves to avoid making during an AfD eg. "I, Green Cardamom, believe this topic is notable because I, Green Cardamom, believe this topic is famous." .. rather in this case, it is the sources which express he is notable by virtue of newspaper articles about him. INHERIT is often misunderstood this way, it's not meant to censor reliable sources, rather original arguments made by Wikipedians. (Also INHERIT is an essay and not an established guideline. While it is often viewed as a guideline, it is not because there is no consensus for that, and probably shouldn't trump the guidelines when there is debate over INHERITs application.) Green Cardamom (talk) 17:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Overturn and relist Sources have been shown and linked that clearly bring fully focused coverage of the subject. The delete !votes simply ignored that. I wouldn't go so far to overturn to keep, given the AfD, but I think it should be procedurally relisted and discussed with a bit more sense. --cyclopia^speak! 17:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
• Relist I agree with Cyclopia. The delete voters did not address the sources presented and only argued against the non-existent opinion of "he's notable because he's a Kennedy." Of course, three new stories does not make someone notable, so it's possible the end result would be another delete closure. OSborn ^arf_contribs. 23:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
• Relist WP:GNG is a guideline. It is perfectly OK to say "the subject has in-depth coverage so I am guided to presume notability, but because the coverage is in-depth fluff I think we should not have an article in this case". And I can argue that "despite the in-depth coverage there is inadequate material for a balanced BLP". However it is not clear that is what the "deletes" are arguing and so further discussion could help clarify the matter. Thincat (talk) 23:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn to keep The sources presented in the AfD clearly demonstrate sufficient non-trivial, independent, reliable source coverage. None of the delete !votes had any merit, and should have been discounted by the closing admin, but were not. Jclemens (talk) 08:50, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
• Green Cardamom presented three sources during the AfD. One of them is easily ruled out: there's a clear and longstanding consensus that the Daily Mail is not a reliable source for BLPs. The other two stand, and the fact that they talk about Schlossberg in the context of his relationship to JFK doesn't mean he isn't notable. It's commonplace for the relatives of important political figures to attract coverage in reliable sources; see, for example, Norma Major, a woman who is (objectively speaking) utterly lacking in achievements or independent significance. But the GNG is not a scalpel capable of separating people who attract coverage because of their relatives from those who are notable for achieving something. It's a big blunt instrument. The only test is whether there are two independent sources. There are, they were linked for all to see, so the notability challenge was dismissed and the case for deletion was destroyed. The close should have been keep and we should overturn it accordingly.—S Marshall T/C 12:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Could you point me to where the Daily Mail consensus was reached? Hobit (talk) 13:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
    • It was reached incrementally; most of the discussions are linked from here. The Daily Mail is Britain's Fox News: we can use it with care for non-contentious subjects, but on anything to do with history, politics or climate change it's far out of line, and on BLPs it loses libel cases much too frequently to be considered an acceptable source for Wikipedia's purposes. This case is a double-whammy: a political BLP.—S Marshall T/C 17:25, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn Yeah, there were not any policy-based reasons for deletion. I don't see how there could be given the sources. Hobit (talk) 13:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
• Relist The close was too much of a supervote, expressing the closer's opinion of the matter. The discussion was weak and seems to have given insufficient attention to alternatives to deletion such as merger with Kennedy family. Making this a redlink just invites recreation and we can do better. Warden (talk) 13:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn It meets the WP:GNG requirements for an article. The Daily Mail coverage was quite extensive. [1] Irish Central had a two page article about him, and quoted bits from the interview he and his mother gave to CNN. [2] The New York Post article was about him. [3] They don't just cover his political announcement, they talk about him. Dream Focus 14:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
  • The daily mail is a tabloid and generally UK tabloids are not considered reliable sources. The broadsheet media is what passes for reliable sourcing in the UK although I'm sure many will dispute even this. The mail's characterisation of Ralph Miliband as a man who hated Britain despite pulling strings to flight in WW2 when he could have stayed non-combatant says it all really. There are far too numerous other examples to cite even going back to the eve of WW2 and "Hurrah for the blackshirts" for there to be any doubt about this. I feel very strongly about this and won't be closing this review. Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:43, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Ah. What about the other two then? My Highbeam account isn't finding anything [4] nor Google news search, just minor mentions and some articles hidden behind paywalls. Surely his announcement will get ample media attention like the rest of the Kennedy family does, constantly, for every little thing they do. Dream Focus 19:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Though I certainly agree in general with Spartaz about the Daily Mail, I do not see how making a reference to a story there about him , most of which is confirmed by other sources, by itself invalidates the article. I agree that coverage by that paper is not coverage that by itself shows encyclopedic notability, but it wasn't the only source. DGG ( talk ) 19:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Closing administrator comment: I see no need in keeping this open as it seems the consensus is that those sources (which I ruled out in my closing) do in fact establish notability outside of him being related to JFK. My close was not a supervote as Warden claimed, but instead a misinterpretation of consensus on those sources. Therefore, I'm fine with this article and it's AFD being relisted and closed by a fellow administrator in a week's time. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 19:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

List of unusual deaths

List of unusual deaths (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

The closing admin attempted to prevent any future AFDs of the article, which is beyond his reach.

No reasonable analysis of the input can justify a close as "keep." "No consensus" would have been reasonable, and "delete" is within reach, but not "keep", and certainly not "keep" with this extraordinary preemptive clause that prohibits bringing this thing to AFD again. The deletion arguments are summarized pretty simply: "unusual" is a highly subjective deletion criteria and there isn't any reliable source that allows us to deem any specific death unusual, the community has tried time and time again to agree upon an objective set of criteria and failed. On the "keep side", we have Dream Focus arguing that there is an objective set of criteria while he simultaneously advocates ignoring objective criteria at Talk:List of unusual deaths/Archive 8#no need to use the actual word "unusual", you can think for yourself, Edison arguing that the same objective criteria actually exist, without providing evidence that editors actually follow them. LM2000 and others argue for keep simply because it has passed AFD before, others arguing that Time Magazine coverage of the article mandates keeping it. This whole "objective criteria exist" argument fails to recognize that editors, on the whole, ignore the sourcing criterion and even take to the talk page to argue that requiring sources to describe the death as "unusual" is unfair and unreasonable. Does the criterion exist? Certainly. Is there widespread consensus to use it? Not really.

Colonel Warden even attempted to argue that the Fortean Times is a reliable source in his "keep" argument.

We also have "keep" votes that argue in favor of original research, like Necrothesp, and other keep arguments arguing per Necrothesp.

Making a troublesome AFD worse, we had Martinevans123 disrupting the proceedings in a determined effort to prevent reasonable discussion, making no fewer than 90 comments that generally consisted of snipes at other editors' comments. As for his actual "Keep" vote, it was not based on any Wikipedia policy, it was WP:ITSPOPULAR.

It's impossible to provide very much weight to "it's fixable!" for an article that has been to AFD seven times and never been repaired, and that's the majority "keep" argument here. It would be reasonable to conclude that there was no consensus here. It's probably a little early to conclude that the deletes finally have it and that the community is willing to recognize that the article truly is irreparable. Decreeing that the delete side has no foundation whatsoever for its arguments and is being disruptive is out of bounds, though. Sometimes it takes eight or nine passes before people start to see how weak the keep side of an argument is, and there's no reason to declare that this article is immune to future deletion discussion.

I'd love to see an overturn to delete, but I recognize that that would be as or more problematic as this close. Realistically, I want an overturn to no consensus and a removal of the language that dictates that no further AFDs can ever be started against this article. —Kww(talk) 16:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Closing administrator comment: Please see User talk:Coffee#List of unusual deaths AFD for further context. I'll take more time to lay out my reasoning to the reviewers here, if/when that becomes warranted. Please keep in mind I'm sleeping throughout the day due to my current work schedule, so I may be late in replying to questions or concerns. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 17:21, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)Closing administrator comment: One thing I find imperative to point out here (although any reviewer could easily see this by looking at my closing rationale) is that I did not state that an AFD could never be opened on this list again. What I stated, and with good reason, is that an eighth AFD based on the same arguments should not be started again, unless there has been a drastic change in current policy. This is the very spirit of the "Renominations" point in WP:DELAFD. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 17:37, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Given that the article is deletable under current policy, that's a distinction without a difference. All that's required for deletion is for a closing admin to weigh arguments appropriately.—Kww(talk) 17:46, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
      • Given that even in this DRV you have shown no policy-based argument to delete the article whatsoever, apart from cherry-picking some bad keep !votes, I'd say that it is not deletable under current policy. So much that people have tried to change policy to delete this article (and failed miserably). --cyclopia^speak! 17:50, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

If anyone else thinks my contributions amounted to "a determined effort to prevent reasonable discussion", please let me know. I'd also like to know if Kww was prevented from reasonable discussion. And could he tell us how many comments one is limited to at an RfD? Perhaps (to save community time) I could be topic banned from participation in any future RfDs (on any subject of Kww's choosing). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:16, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

You rely on people not clicking on your links to see that they are completely irrelevant to the subject, such as your link to Topic (chocolate bar) in this comment. I'd love to hear the logic that defends such postings. If your goal is to poke fun at the discussion process, it's hard for me to see it as a constructive contribution.—Kww(talk) 00:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC

I see. Thanks for clarifying that, Kww. One can just hover, I think, before one decides to click. But I certainly don't rely on people. And it depends on your definition of logic, I guess. Do you think "topic bans" always work, or do you think maybe some addicts always get their comeuppance? Martinevans123 (talk) 00:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Endorse very, very strongly. Actually, Coffee close is one of the best and most thoughtful I've seen on AfD in ages. But let's see a few points in detail
  • Delete !votes do not ever bring a cogent policy-based argument for deletion of the topic. Most delete !votes (e.g.TheRedPenOfDoom, Purplebackpack89, Obiwankenobi, to list three of the most active users in favor of deletion) argued that the list is inherently subjective. This has been (1)proven false since the list can be based on the objective criteria of sources calling the event unusual or a synonym of it (2)that sources have to deal with objective, monolithically consistent criteria for such an assessment does not exist in any topic (3)calls to WP:IINFO fail because the topic is eminently WP:DISCRIMINATE.
  • Attempts at changing policy mid-AfD failed overwhelmingly The delete !votes were actually acutely aware that their position was, at best, shaky policy-wise. So much that one of them, Purplebackpack89, started a thread on WP:VPP to change policy to backup their position. The proposal was met by practically unanimous opposition, calling for a WP:SNOW close. This shows that every delete !vote based on such an argument (that is, the vast majority of them) is pushing a non-consensual position.
  • That it has not been fixed does not mean it is not fixable This is a logical fallacy, that also forgets that we have no deadline. I do not deny that there are serious WP:OR concerns. That they are "unfixable" is instead false, as shown by the fact that inclusion criteria based on sources are being discussed right now, with good support so far (the more people want to participate, the merrier, by the way). Editors as Kww himself and TheRedPenOfDoom have also done lots of work to fix the article removing unsourced entries and asking for sourcing. To bypass our deletion policy one would have to show that the article is intrinsically unfixable, because of the topic. This has not been shown.
  • Reliable academic sources on the topic have been presented by both delete and keep !votes To present the discussion as if all the keep !votes pivoted around Colonel Warden's Fortean Times sources is disingenous. During the discussion, an important point has been the finding that medical and forensic academic journals actually regularly cite the concept of unusual death. Remarkably enough, a delete !vote has brought this to the table -that is, Obiwankenobi. That is a novel and important development in showing that the quality and quantity of sourcing for the article is actually strong, and it is a strong argument in favour of keeping the article.
  • The AfD closure actually covers the bad keep !votes To call for a deletion review could perhaps make sense if the closer actually completely discarded the fact that some keep !votes were invalid. This could bring credence to an admin supervote closure. Very honestly instead Coffee's closure actually remarked that !votes based on article popularity are to be discarded (I include myself in those making a variation of that argument). The point is not that some keep !votes were weak: the point is that none of the delete !votes has basis in any consensual interpretation of policy, while plenty of different kinds of reliable sources have shown that the article can satisfy WP:LISTN, WP:V, WP:GNG etc.
  • Discouraging further AfDs is policy-based and correct WP:DELAFD is clear in labeling multiple nominations as disruptive. Given that seven AfDs have all hovered between "keep" and "no consensus", it seems obvious that further nominations without a change in policy would be just a (probably hopeless) attempt at forum shopping until, by sheer statistical chance, the outcome gets the way the nominator wants. This is disruptive and tendentious, and at best a waste of everyone's time.
  • Numbers Well, yes: AfDs are not meant to be a mere vote count. Yet fact is that consensus, by head count, is leaning strongly towards keep, and almost all by established editors (no SPA or newbie accounts have been seen AFAIK). Most importantly almost all of last !votes are on the keep side and citing other keep !votes for their rationale, showing that the community has been reading, pondering and ultimately endorsing the keep arguments.

For all these reasons I think not only that Coffee closure is excellent, but also that this DRV is basically an attempt at WP:FORUMSHOPPING and a case of being hard of hearing. We have discussed this topic to (an unusual) death. People who have problems with the inclusion criteria are more than welcome to come to the article and help fixing it instead of endlessly argue again and again that they basically do not like it.--cyclopia^speak! 17:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse Kww didn't produce any evidence to support his subjective claim that this article is a "terrible idea". He is therefore in no position to scoff at the evidence produced by other contributors. Anyway, the substantive point here is the close's point that "this means that all further nominations should be closed as violations of WP:DELAFD unless there is new or changed policy backing the AFD". WP:DELAFD is an existing policy and it seems quite appropriate to refer to it in this circumstance. Seven nominations is far more vexatious repetition than would be permitted in most other places. Enough is enough. Warden (talk) 17:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse closure The closing administrator made a wonderful case, laying out everything in clear details. Since certain participates would start up the argument again, and again, and again, as they have in past AFDs where they didn't get their way, I think it best to specify that they can't renominate this AFD for an 8th time unless there have been a change in policy. No nominating for claims of Original Research, he dismissing that in his closing statement, or other things listed in his closing. Dream Focus 20:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Overturn to delete: The administrator's closure ignored policy. Per Wikipedia:Consensus can change, you can't forbid renomination down the road a piece, as Coffee tried to do. And when you throw out all the deletes that are "I like it", "This gets hit a lot", "this shouldn't have been renominated", or "There's objective criteria" (which they're blatantly isn't, and will never be), you actually end up with more delete votes than keep votes. Wikipedia should neither be a place for ridiculously subjective lists such as this one, nor a place for ridiculous admin supervotes such as this one. I am also a bit disturbed by the OWNership level the three endorse votes above took at both the AfD, and in the talk page of the article. pbp 21:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

  (Is that OWNership or ACTive editing to the article? I don't recall seeing you there very often.) Martinevans123 (talk) 23:37, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

  @Purplebackpack89: So, let me get this straight: In this AfD there have been a grand total of zero policy-based delete !votes, plus a massive majority of keep !votes, plus a sound refusal by the community to disallow "ridiculously subjective lists" (as you put it) when you asked for it on WP:VPP -and yet you come here with a straight face saying this should be overturned to delete (something that even the DRV nominator had the dignity and brains to avoid). And after having forum shopped to get policy the way you wanted mid-AfD, you have the balls to accuse editors of WP:OWN. Pbp, you are welcome to have your opinions, but you are making a fool of yourself if you keep this kind of denial in the face of consensus. --cyclopia^speak! 23:52, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

  If we're talking about straight-faces, I don't understand how you can say that there were zero policy-based delete votes, because that's inaccurate. pbp 23:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

  That's if we are not fooled by mistaking "!votes linking to policy" for "policy based !votes". Yeah, many linked WP:IINFO, but all failed to produce a cogent argument for it that went beyond WP:IDONTLIKEIT (see Kww's own !vote for example, based on the personal opinion that article is a "terrible idea"). The other argument by delete !votes (intrinsic subjectivity) is not present in any policy. So much that you yourself had the honesty to acknowledge it and attempted to fix the policy. If the deletes' reasonings were policy-based, what's the point of trying to fix it? --cyclopia^speak! 00:11, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

  Yes, articles based on subjective criteria for which we cannot agree on authoritative reliable sources are a terrible idea. If you can actually generate a stable consensus about what kind of source it takes to justify an entry in this list, my objections will go away.—Kww(talk) 00:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

  (1)This is a fair opinion you're perfectly entitled to, but it met little consensus so far. Without an overwhelming consensus about this being a "terrible idea", WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not an argument. (2) If you think that generating a stable consensus on inclusion criteria is at least theoretically possible, then your opposition to the article falls under things that can be dealt with normal editorial process, and as such we should fix 'em, not delete 'em. That's exactly why the claims of WP:OR in the article - which I do not deny - are however not relevant for deletion. --cyclopia^speak! 00:25, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Abstain. A much larger problem here seems to be how we trust WP:RS (if such a mythical beast actually exists, of course). Martinevans123 (talk) 23:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• I found this reminiscent of the various deletion debates for List of common misconceptions. It triggers a lot of similar reasoning. I think there are three facets to consider.

  First facet: In theory, any article may be nominated for deletion at any time by any good faith user. However, in practice repeated renominations of the same article on the same basis, if nothing has changed in the meantime, may be construed as an attempted end run around the previous consensus and speedily closed (with possible sanctions if the renomination was disruptive). This situation is common enough to have its own shortcut (WP:KEEPLISTINGTILITGETSDELETED) and speedy keep criterion (WP:SK ground 2c), so most of us know how it works. However, so that there can be no misunderstanding, the way this normally works is that for a few months after a deletion debate has been closed as "keep" or "no consensus", the article enjoys a temporary immunity from the AfD process unless there is (a) a change in policy or (b) a significant development such as a new source. Exactly how long this immunity lasts depends on the article, the sources, and the nature and number of previous debates. In this case we have now had a total of seven well-attended debates on the same subject and the community's view really is hard to misunderstand. The opposition to this article is persistent and vocal, but it has not attracted widespread support. I would personally view an early renomination as a wilful failure to get the message. I think all this is what Coffee intended us to understand from his closing statement. However, since it's possible to read Coffee's closing statement in a different light, and some users are reading it in a different light, I come to the first finding I think this DRV should make: The article is not immune from future AfD, but an early renomination would be unwise.

  Second facet: Seven failed deletion attempts do add up to a significant weight to the "keep" side. It should not be necessary for the article's supporters to repeat themselves four times a year just because other users insist on fresh debates every three months! This is why the arguments raised in AfDs #5 and #6 should be taken into account in the close of #7. Coffee took this into account in his close and he was right to do so. The second finding of this DRV should be that in this respect, Coffee's close is endorsed and, in the inevitable AfD #8, future closers are recommended to take the same approach of giving weight to views expressed in recent previous discussions.

  Third facet: Some lists are kept not because they meet encyclopaedic criteria but because they're simply interesting and widely-read. Such lists are good gateways into the encyclopaedia and they are among our most popular content. Wikipedia is inconsistent about the way it deals with such lists. The List of Unusual Deaths and the List of Common Misconceptions have been kept in the mainspace. The List of Unusual Articles is kept in the Wikipedia space (at Wikipedia:Unusual articles) but with a cross-namespace redirect from List of unusual articles. In my view, this compromise has a lot to recommend it, so the third finding I would suggest for this DRV is that although an early deletion nomination is not advised, a Requested move, RFC or other discussion about moving this content into the Wikipedia space with a cross-namespace redirect would be acceptable and would not be inconsistent with the close.

  I do prefer "keep" over "no consensus" and I do not think it's a good idea to disturb Coffee's close in any other respect.—S Marshall T/C 23:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• I come to the first finding I think this DRV should make: The article is not immune from future AfD, but an early renomination would be unwise. - Just for clarification, S Marshall: the closure as I interpret it allows for new AfDs, obviously, provided however there is a relevant shift in policy. This sounds wise to me: we have repeatedly gauged consensus in the current policy situation, and while it is true that consensus can change, it is also true that a new consensus would require, to be sound, novel policy-based arguments: these seem extremly unlikely to come out in the future unless policy itself changes. I'd say perhaps that unless someone finds a ground-breaking new conceptual angle for an AfD nomination, future nominations should be disregarded. That is, if the new nomination is a rehash of old nomination arguments, we can shut the AfD immediately, because we already know the answer.--cyclopia^speak! 23:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• I think that would be true for the near future (say, the next six months or so). But if AfD #8 starts in 2015 when the list looks different, then I don't think we could constrain the closer to that extent.—S Marshall T/C 00:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I was about to post the exact same thing pbp 00:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

and if the list looks the same, the claims of "the problems are fixable" will be even more facile. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I've always found that view hard to sympathise with. In logic, whether the problems are fixable does not depend on whether they've been fixed within a particular timescale. Fixability is a property, not a deadline.—S Marshall T/C 00:15, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Exactly so. Actually the reasoning above should be written explicitly in some policy -after this mess of multiple AfDs, DRVs etc. has settled. --cyclopia^speak! 00:19, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• The credibility of the statement that it can be improved is certainly reduced. It's an affirmative defense: if someone wants to claim that something can be improved, they should eventually be able to point at an improvement. Going the other way is attempting to prove a negative: a constant lack of improvement certainly suggests that something can't be improved, but cannot prove it.—Kww(talk) 00:27, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• (But Red Pen improved the article with his removal of items that did not meet the (albeit informally) agreed inclusion criteria). Martinevans123 (talk) 00:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

At some point claims of "its fixable" actually need to result in fixes, otherwise they are no better than tales of Santa Claus in their basis in reality. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• The credibility of the statement that it can be improved is certainly reduced - Not really. All you need is to point a reasonable and practical improvement route (as I did recently on the article talk page). Also you can often successfully argument that an article cannot be improved, e.g. an article on Antarctic exploration by Babylonians cannot be improved no matter what. That's not the case here. All the article needs is a practical and policy based inclusion criteria agreed by editors. If there is one benefit of this last AfD and all the bitter discussions on the article, it is that: forcing people to sit at a table and lay down these criteria once and for all. TRPOD seems to have sort of joined the effort, so I'm even more perplexed at his skepticism. Kww, wanna help? --cyclopia^speak! 00:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• But if consensus can change, it can change in both directions, right? If six months is all it takes, then consider the consequences if there's another AFD and, due to the vagaries of the discussion and close, the article is deleted for once. Another six months then passes and it would then be ok to recreate the article, just like before, to test the state of consensus six months on, right? That's ok is it - that we have can have an infinite cycle of discussion, potential deletion and recreation? I'm thinking that the delete camp would soon change their tune if they managed to get the page deleted. They'd be talking WP:CSD G4 so that consensus would then be frozen, rather then allowed to change. This lack of symmetry would be grotesquely unjust per WP:SAUCE. Warden (talk) 00:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Agree with Warden. There is an intrinsic and unfair asymmetry between AfD and recreation. This general issue has to be taken into account when dealing with multiple AfD nominations. It seems that so far multiple deletion attempts are all jolly good, while attempting at overturning a deleted article are much harder and dimly seen. Again, I think it is correct to discourage further nominations unless at least one of article content, policy or deletion arguments have massively changed. --cyclopia^speak! 00:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

"All right! Since you say it's fixable, it's your job to fix it by next Tuesday. Hop to it!"

Whether something is fixable does not depend on whether it's actually fixed within any particular timescale. If I say something can be fixed, then what I mean is that there are people who could fix it. If I mean "I, personally, will fix it before the next AfD", then that is what I will say. If I have not said that, and the content remains un-fixed three months (or three years) later, then the impact on my personal credibility is zero. I hope the difference between "fixable" and "imminently about to be fixed by me" is now clear to everyone concerned and we can move on.

This is all of very tangential relevance to the actual DRV and I suggest that we hat it.—S Marshall T/C 01:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Usually when something is renominated 6 months after it closes, it ends with the same results. I don't think everyone should have to keep going to the same AFD every six months, especially when its the same group of people renominating it and making the same exact arguments as before. Remember what happened the last time this was at AFD. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of unusual deaths (6th nomination) A few days after the previous one closed, PBP renominated it stating "Anything can be renominated immediately if it closes in no-consensus." Based on that, the closing administrator was justified in telling this small group of stubborn people not to renominate it for deletion yet again just to repeat the same process yet again. Dream Focus 01:10, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Little known fact: Whenever Dream Focus and I edit the same AfD or DRV, he invariably finds some way to attack me. What should have happened was that AfD 5 should have relisted rather than closed as no consensus. If the relist had been done properly, I wouldn't have had to renominate it (and FWIW, this is exactly the place to discuss the proper closure of an AfD) Again, I remind you that consensus can change, and also that I didn't start either AfD 5 or 7. pbp 01:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Consensus can change a few days after it closes? You participated in the 5th, it didn't go your way, so you started a 6th deletion discussion a few days later. Dream Focus 01:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

You seem to have missed my point about relisting, i.e. letting it go on another week so more people can participate. Considering that more people voted in AfD 7 than AfD 5, it's likely that there would have been enough participants to discern a consensus had it been kept open longer. Not really any different from the DRVs you've started and admins you've pinged when articles you wanted kept were deleted. Anyway, this discussion is about AfD 7, not about AfD 5 or 6, and you clearly brought it up for the sole purpose of poo-pooing me, so it's time you stopped talking about it. pbp 01:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

This isn't the only time you renominated something shortly after it closed. A repeating pattern occurs with you and a few other similar minded editors. You need to stop assuming everything is about you. The AFD was closed the way it was, because of previous AFDs for this topic, thus it relevant to mention that, regardless of who the person was that renominated it that quickly. Dream Focus 01:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Dream Focus, please stop. Deletion review is about closes----it's about content, and procedure. It can't help resolve difficulties between editors and it's explicitly a drama-free zone. We've gone far off track. Could we please return to discussing the merits and demerits of Coffee's close?—S Marshall T/C 02:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

This is about the close. The closing administrator made a point about people not renominating it again unless policy changed. Some protested this. I pointed out it was necessary, since someone had, after the 5th AFD ran its proper course and closed, renominated it a few days later. The fact that someone keeps insisting everyone is out to get him all the time, is not relevant. Some mentioned people should wait 6 months before renominating it, I mentioning a response to that at the start of this. Dream Focus 02:11, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

You could have easily worded it in such a way as to leave my name out of it. Instead of "PBP renominated it", you could have said "it was renominated", and left out the part about "this small group of stubborn people" altogether. The fact that you elected for a personal wording, combined with the previous interactions I've had from you, does lead me to the conclusion that you are attempting to harness this DRV to force embarrassment or sanctions upon me. Also consider my comment on Coffee's talk page: I'm perfectly fine with saying wait six months, even longer, and also fine with saying any of the previous participants can't renom. The problem I have is with the blanket statement about no renoms unless a very specific set of circumstances are met. pbp 02:46, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I had to mention you since I had to quote what you said there, that relevant here. And your wording and past interactions lead me to the conclusion you are just paranoid and ridiculous as usual. And you are still stubbornly determined to renominate this article yet again. Be it a few days or six months or longer, its still just gaming the system, trying the same thing until you get your way and wasting everyone's time. Dream Focus 02:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, I just said that I'd be fine with somebody saying that previous participants (which would include me, and you too) couldn't renom. That would suggest that I had no intention of renomming. So to claim that I am determined to renom is completely inaccurate, and again proves that you're commenting just to prove some point. There's a little gift waiting for you on your talk page pbp 03:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

So someone else who wasn't there this time around will renominate it instead, but you'll still show up along with many others who participated this time, and everyone will make the same arguments as before. There is no reason to allow that. No policy was violated, therefore unless policy changes, no reason to allow this to repeat itself yet again. Dream Focus 03:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

And you will show up with the same non arguments. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

So, @Dream Focus:, you apparently want to ban anybody who voted "Delete" from any future discussions pertaining to the topic of unusual deaths (nevermind that that's an ANI matter, not a DRV manner). I assume you're also willing to ban yourself, Cyclopia, Warden, and anybody who voted "Keep" from future discussions as well? After all, that's only fair pbp 03:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, we get that you don't get on now both of you stop the bickering or I'm going to close this early to end the disruption. Enough. Spartaz ^Humbug! 07:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse The rough consensus was to keep and the closer gave a good explanation of that. Later !votes were strongly towards "keep" so, unless there was some recruitment (and it doesn't look so to me), the earlier discussion seems to have persuaded people that "keep" was appropriate. Our convention at the XfDs is that we entertain all sorts of nomination, however ill-founded, closing only those that are grossly improper. Hence, I don't think the closer's ending remarks represent de facto policy. Thincat (talk) 08:40, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

It was listed by the Article Rescue Squadron, Thincat, which some may consider recruitment. The last part of your comment is unclear to me: do you support overturning that prohibition on future AFDs?—Kww(talk) 13:26, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The most likely person to be recruited by ARS listing is Purplebackpack89 who can be relied upon to show up and !vote "strongest possible delete" in such cases. Warden (talk) 13:37, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Not true. I don't even vote in 40-50% percent of ARS noms! But Kww is correct in that an ARS tag reliably correlates to 3-4 extra keep votes. pbp 14:31, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Please stay on topic and stop insulting a Wikiproject you don't like with baseless accusations. You can look through the things listed now and see that they did not in fact bring in 3-4 keep votes to everything, some things getting no participates at all. People only respond to things that catch their interest. Dream Focus 14:33, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

@Kww: (1) Not so much recruitment as a reveille to the standing army. The ARS was informed almost immediately the AfD was opened[5][6] so, if they were responding, their response was very delayed since the swing towards "keep" was several days after the AfD had been opened. I was actually going by the names of those !voting "keep", some of whom I recognised and not in an "inclusionist" context. (2) If the closer issued a prohibition of future AfDs I think he should not have done and I would not be supporting it. Thincat (talk) 15:48, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse I actually think a lifetime limit of 3 AfDs is more reasonable than 7, but I think the closer has it right: the latter part of WP:NOTAGAIN applies, no matter how much a few people believe it ought not to. Jclemens (talk) 08:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
• overturn to no consensus I agree a new nomination should not be made for a while (say, 1 year), but I don't think policy needs to change dramatically (or at all) to consider re-deleting this list, and I think the closer overstepped their bounds in so-declaring. The decision should be overturned because Coffee basically made a !supervote, with this phrase: "I can find no way that this list violates WP:IINFO and/or WP:LIST, per the criteria." - it is not up to the closing admin to decide whether the article in question violates a policy, it is up to the closer to weigh the arguments - and many people OTHER than Coffee did feel it violated WP:IINFO, because collecting a group of deaths just because some source used a synonym of "unusual" to describe them is inherently unencyclopedic and indiscriminate, and this argument was made by multiple participants. "Unusual" is simply too vague a term, that's the bottom line, and claiming it is equivalent to "strange" or "bizarre" is also a form of OR. The closer tossing those arguments out is tantamount to super voting. It was pointed out during the discussion that by the same reasoning that the !keep camp used, we could easily create List of beautiful actresses or List of customs considered weird or List of Mysterious People - or in the domain of death alone, we could create List of deaths considered tragic or List of deaths considered untimely or List of deaths considered sad or List of deaths considered suspicious or List of deaths considered sudden or List of deaths considered unexplained and so on, for dozens more adjective + noun combinations, and there are books and blogs that make exactly such lists, so the sourcing would be equivalent. But ultimately, this is not good for the enyclopedia, as it brings us down to the level of Ripley's Believe it or not and the Fortean times. I demonstrated in the AfD that we could source likely hundreds or even thousands of suicides as "unusual", and then could do the same for every other "common" means of death, like diabetes, myocardial infarction, stroke, cancer, and so on, and then we could go on to create List of unusual disease cases for examples where the lucky people survived! - but collecting cases where the medical community has used the word "unusual" to describe them, while easily sourceable, would lead to a list with thousands of articles and would serve no encyclopedic interest save a collection of deaths through a trivial intersection - the use of a single adjective. Overturn to no consensus, and let the next nom happen in a year.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:16, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

  If there are books about unusual deaths, and newspapers covering a list of the most unusual deaths in history, as have been found, then it a valid article. We do have other articles listing deaths that are seen as notable by reliable sources. List of entertainers who died during a performance, List of inventors killed by their own inventions, List of association footballers who died while playing, List of professional cyclists who died during a race, List of political self-immolations, and Death from laughter. For your example, the list of deaths considered suspicious or list of deaths considered unexplained, we have List of unsolved deaths. Also a list of the most beautiful actresses might work, I Googling it and finding plenty of coverage. Whenever anyone who has an article is on one of those list of most beautiful women, from any reliable source, it gets mentioned in their article. Look at Angelina Jolie for instance, it even in the lead. Dream Focus 19:27, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Note that I closed this early under the mistaken belief that PBP was the nominator and his request on my talk page was akin to a withdrawn nomination. Clearly I was mistaken so lets leave this to fester for a few more days before another admin comes along and closes it. Apologies to everyone for interrupting your feud. Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)