Talk:2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine

Only Russian language sources are quoted

• The majority of the readers isn't able to understand linked articles.
• The article is a stub with a list of towns. Is the list complete?
• What is the basis of the order of the list?Xx236 (talk) 07:37, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Here you got an english language news source: Police removes the “Pravy Sector” from office in Kharkov --Dinarsad (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Russian Spring ?

Google doesn't support the name, are there any English language sources?Xx236 (talk) 07:41, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Protesters in Lugansk

The picture "Protesters in Lugansk" shows both Russian and Ukrainian flags.Xx236 (talk) 11:59, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

This name "Russian spring" do not mean it is anti-Ukrainian protest. It means, that important question are - cooperation with Russia, language Cathry (talk) 02:32, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Still we don't know what is the nature of the specific Lugansk protest. The context suggests it's a part of Russian Spring but RS protesters don't use Ukrainian flags. So the picture should be removed.Xx236 (talk) 07:59, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

"RS protesters don't use Ukrainian flags" Where did you find this interesting information?Cathry (talk) 21:40, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Russian people use Russian or red flags, Ukrainians and Tatars use Ukrainian flags. Where did you find this interesting information that Russian nationalists use Ukrainian flags? Xx236 (talk) 06:58, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Pro-Russian extremists attacked manifestants and occupied local governmentXx236 (talk) 07:04, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Blood in LuhanskXx236 (talk) 07:10, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Title

I've heard no use of this term in English language reliable sources. That would mean that the title should be changed to a more generic "2014 Pro-Russian protests in Ukraine", or some such thing like that. RGloucester — ☎ 03:56, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. Xx236 (talk) 08:00, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Agree; the tittle is misleading since these protests are 2014 Pro-Russian protests in Ukraine and not a meteorologist event.... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:58, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I suggested to change the title to more generic as "2014 Southern and Eastern Ukraine Crisis" as it would include the Crimean Crisis as one time line as it's caused by same thing, the 2014 Ukraine Revolution and by same people (Russian ethnic in Ukraina). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xbypass (talk • contribs) 04:07, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

It is not a crises any more since since yesterday the 3 Regional State Administration pro-Russian protesters held for only a few days are all in Government hands. 2014 Crimean crisis is still a crises but not a part of these protests. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 04:15, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Russian Spring → 2014 Pro-Russian protests in Ukraine – The term "Russian Spring" originates from Russian propaganda,[1] and has not been picked up by independent English media sources. The term "Russian Spring" has previously been used to describe a democratic revolution against Russian President Vladimir Putin.[2] The title should be changed to something more generic. Orser67 (talk) 23:09, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• Agree; the tittle is misleading. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 23:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
• Moved I WP:BOLDly moved the page due to a WP:NPOV concern and a WP:SOAPBOX title. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed merge with 2014 Ukrainian Regional State Administration occupations

A merge of this article with 2014 Ukrainian Regional State Administration occupations does not make sense... The 2014 Ukrainian Regional State Administration occupations were part of Euromaidan and thus had totally different demands to be met and was done by totally different people for most part in different parts of the country then were the the 2014 Pro-Russian protests in Ukraine are being held now. (Close to all 2014 Ukrainian Regional State Administration occupations were in Western Ukraine, these 2014 Pro-Russian protests in Ukraine are in Eastern Ukraine (traditionally there are not many pro-Russians in West Ukraine).) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 14:54, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

• No any reason to merge this articles. Arguments are not shown by nominator. NickSt (talk) 17:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

The result is still the same: Regional State Administration occupations, in previous event by Euromaidan, now by pro-Russian side. This event is still continue as previous government is removed and the new government abolish the law that resulted eastren and southren Ukraina protest. This is still a same story. Xbypass (talk) 03:51, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Using the same methods does not mean it is the same thing... Besides pro-Russian occupied barley 3 Regional State Administration for only a few days. And as of yesterday there are no Regional State Administration occupations in Ukraine... So why merge something that has stopped with something that is ongoing? (There are still pro-Russian protests in Ukraine.) I do consider the current occupations of Government buildings in Crimea a completely different thing then Regional State Administration occupations in Ukraine by non-military protesters. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 04:02, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with Yulia. NickSt (talk) 14:21, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Timeline

The timeline part of this article should be converted to prose. At present, it is entirely encumbering. RGloucester — ☎ 05:05, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry; but I am not a native speaker of English and have no idea what "encumbering language" is.... By "converting to prose" you mean making it more simplistic? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:21, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

My apologies, I meant that it is clunky. By "converting to prose", I mean removing the present subheadings by date, and turning it a more appropriate "history" section. RGloucester — ☎ 20:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

one questioned asked

Is it a correct phrase "one questioned asked"?Xx236 (talk) 12:22, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

It was a typo. I've corrected it. Apologies. --Tocino 23:24, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article is disputed. But what is exactly the problem?

The neutrality of this article is disputed. But what is exactly the problem? WP:UNDUE? WP:BALASPS? WP:IMPARTIAL? Or something else? We can not solve the problem when not told what the problem is.... (PS I myself did not add the "neutrality of article is disputed"-template to this article.) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:15, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, it is a sensitive question, is still ongoing, there are multiple sources that contradicts themselves on the issue over the internet, and I find important for other users and people from outside Wikipedia to know it. In my opinion it would qualify under WP:WEIGHT or WP:BALANCE. But don't take me wrong, Yulia, I know you are working on this article and you may not agree with me at all. All I want is to help and asure that this stays the most neutral possible. --vonusovef ^(wha?) 22:30, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

RT (TV network) use as source in this Wikipedia article

I think it is very unwise to use RT (TV network) as a sources in this wiki-article since it seem to be having a bias when it comes to reporting about these 2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine. For instance were international press sees "stealing of Ukrainian-language books and then set them alight in small bonfires in the street" RT reports "the burning of Ukrainian nationalist books and symbols in the shop". And in this article RT uses the words "The Ukrainian coup-imposed government", while BBC News calls the same people "authorities in Kiev" in an article about the same subject. And here RT seems to try to make us believe that a few thousand eastern Ukrainians represents all eastern Ukrainians. In this article RT tries to make us believe observer Tatjana Ždanoka is independent while she is a member of a pro-Russian party herself... (+ the article is too full of anti-Western statements and seems more designed to persuade then to inform). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 23:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

You should post this over at WP:RSN - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:24, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree, RT isn't a reliable source. --Львівське (говорити) 07:09, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Obviously you agree, because you don't like what is shows. Is the CNN or the BBC which showed the Russian military drill in Kaliningrad under the headline "Russian tanks in the Ukraine" reliable? All media is owned by someone and there is no objective media today. You can't just decide a source is not reliable just because you don't like it. 2.125.165.6 (talk) 19:01, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Is BBC News opinion is truthful? I support statement about "The Ukrainian coup-imposed government" and different other sources do the same. And some sources tried to make us to believe that a few thousands western Ukrainians have right to change government with weapons and without elections Cathry (talk) 03:48, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

It's not a right place to present your opinions.Xx236 (talk) 07:52, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

For the record: Euromaidan#Public_opinion_about_Euromaidan shows that the support for the movement that ultimately "changed the government" was a lot higher then Cathry thinks. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:08, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

And "while between 42% and 50% opposed it(Euromaidan)" "According to a January poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of Euromaidan" from the same article Cathry (talk) 16:13, 18 March 2014 (UTC).

Since Ukraine has more then 40 millions inhabitants 45% of Ukrainians is more then then "a few thousands western Ukrainians" (you above claim "a few thousands western Ukrainians changed government"). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:19, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Previously you said "RT seems to try to make us believe that a few thousand eastern Ukrainians represents all eastern Ukrainians." If near 22-23 millions inhabitants did not want this change at all accordingly to polls (and most of them eastern and southern), what problem with RT statement about eastern citizens supporting anti-government protests now? Cathry (talk) 16:29, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

RT does not give us numbers (it does not quote polls) of how many actually people have a "rising discontent" in Eastern Ukraine. Claiming there is a "rising discontent of eastern Ukrainians" but then not telling how many people are discontented is classic WP:WEASEL. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:48, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Cathry has a history of these kinds of edits / comments. --Львівське (говорити) 16:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Let's reformulate the question, do you have any doubts the vast majority of people in Donetsk and Crimea are against the Euromaidan? Are the Russian Protests in East Ukraine made up by the RT? 2.125.165.6 (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

This article is not about Euromaidan.... Euromaidan is over. We need statistics on how many people in Donetsk support the demands of these 2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine. Claiming that they must support the current demonstrations because the did not like Euromaidan is simplistic... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:47, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I never head such a weird argument in my life. Is thee a media channel today which is not biased? Was RT ever caught making up stuff or lying?

I think this statistic will be absent in some cities demonstration are forbidden already, or they leaders are arrested. Cathry (talk) 03:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

RT, in my opinion, is a much better source than the CNN which showed a Russian military drill in Kaliningrad with the headlinee "Russian tank in the Ukraine". It's also much better than the BBC which ignored the phone called between the foreign ministers of the EU and Estonia where they said Yanukovich was not the one who sent the snipers to the Euromaidan.

You can't just choose to ignore channels just because they don't match your POV. 2.125.165.6 (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

You are not informed properly: Estonia denies leaked call implicates Ukraine protesters in killings. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:36, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

"Foreign Minister Paet was giving an overview of what he had heard the previous day in Kiev and expressed concern over the situation on the ground" When pravda.com.ua posts some rumor from FB - it is true and reliable, and when Paet speaks about what he had heard - it is rubbish( agree with this from comments "“And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides,”

Can you see how important that last part is, and Reuters should be ashamed of itself. Why push a biased narrative?" So Reuters is not reliable. Cathry (talk) 05:34, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Interesting information about "Free press" in Ukraine : Director of National channel was beaten and forced to resign by MP from Svoboda https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YjxOk_Lnw_s Cathry (talk) 06:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Very nice example :-) But be careful, I'm afraid Yulia Romero has a filter against information which creates holes in her narrative. 2.125.165.6 (talk) 08:22, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

It's an ad-personam comment Wikipedia:No personal attacks.Xx236 (talk) 10:45, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

-RT is legit source much more than any western source whos russophobic in nature--Crossswords (talk) 13:10, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Map

What constitutes a protest? There should be a cut off for what makes it into the map and is part of any mass demonstrations. Kherson had no big protests, but it's included, for example. If 200 people showed up that shouldn't be put on the same level as 5,000 in Odessa, or something similar - it creates an illusion of equally spread out protests. --Львівське (говорити) 07:08, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I made the map in a hurry. Feel free to make changes that makes the map better. Maybe by adding additional collars for "demonstrations sizing lower then 100 people", "demonstrations sizing between 500-1000 people", "demonstrations sizing between 500-1000 people" etc.? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:19, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Where there is a person protesting against or for something, there is a protest. Dapiks (talk) 21:01, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeahhh... But to make it look like they all were the same size is misleading. I like how the fixed this problem in a picture at Occupy movement#Background. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 22:23, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

It should be color coded like how I did on the Euromaidan article. I'll do it in a bit. From what I see, Kherson got one 400 person protest before, and today got 300 Communist Party members out (while there were 3,000 pro-Ukrainian protesters there too). It's misleading to make it look like Kherson is pro-Russia when support is 90% against Russia.--Львівське (говорити) 18:14, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Ive started a table to document the protest sizes and made a new map that reflects the size. I removed the 'occupied RSA' part since this is a protest map and not an occupation map, and none are currently occupied anyway. --Львівське (говорити) 21:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, your map is wrong, because "Where there is a person protesting against or for something, there is a protest. " (с) Cathry (talk) 21:41, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

this contravenes WP:WEIGHT. The small protests are documented in the article, but shouldn't be given equal weight to the actual protests.--Львівське (говорити) 21:44, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

This article is about pro-Russian protest, not about "huge protests" And it is wrong to delete link for this source with --Cathry (talk) 21:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)other quantity of peoplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_pro-Russian_protests_in_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=600778768 Cathry (talk) 21:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing "huge" about 500 or more, that's a low cut off. But there needs to be a cutoff, as mentioned above by myself and Yulia (who made the original map). A map or graphic is meant to be informational, not display every single person who protested - all of these details can be covered in the article itself. --Львівське (говорити) 23:19, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't see that Yulia has same opinion with you in this question Cathry (talk) 10:51, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

it's only a few comments above that she suggests a heat map like the OSW page and agrees that a uniform color is misleading. --Львівське (говорити) 16:10, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Would a 1-499 color be a solution to your grievance? I still think there needs to be a cutoff, 1 person is not a protest, for example, and im sure you can find a dozen pro-russian people in any province. This article should be about mobilization and notable protests, not just small crowds.--Львівське (говорити) 16:30, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I personally really enjoy the new map. But as you said, there probably are pro-Russians even in Lviv (although I think they are keeping it very quiet right now). Isn't the grey color the color code for 1-499? I guess you could turn the grey into a light version of pink and there you have it - problem solved. Dapiks (talk) 17:08, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I guess in a way grey covers 1-499, there's no way to account for every disgruntled russian in the country - there needs to be a numerical cut off.--Львівське (говорити) 22:49, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Another solution would be to represent the major protests like on the Russian wiki on the topic. Dapiks (talk) 17:08, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

"Would a 1-499 color be a solution to your grievance? " Your map is wrong now about quantity (when it deals with 500+ too). And what reason of "occupied" Crimea? Do you see how many people celebrated union with Russia? There no protests now, because they got what they want. Cathry (talk) 17:41, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

It's not wrong, just may need to be updated, and that's fine. Crimea is under military occupation by Russia, the previous map also had a color for occupation so I tried to go with the flow.--Львівське (говорити) 22:52, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Disputed neutrality

These [3][4] changes are propaganda. They are not based on reliable sources. — Chelovechek (talk) 07:31, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Both versions are NPOV. This article needs to be protected against vandalism. Someone is constantly changing "Ukraine" to "pro-Kiev un-elected junta" 193.0.116.21 (talk) 12:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Bias in Ukrainian media

Example about rally in Lugansk. http://novosti.dn.ua/details/220854/ (Near 1000 separatists rallied) but as you can see photo in this article http://www.0642.ua/news/500277 http://s.citysites.ua/s/5/section/newsInText/upload/images/news/intext/532/d8ee2414a8/eeff9cf23bd472564a29c0e2f1532dee.jpg It is more than 1000 ?? Cathry (talk) 11:34, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

It does look about 2x as many. What do other sources say? How many were they in Kharkov on March 22nd? In most pictures I've seen, they are a few hundred and Kyiv post reports a few hundred too. Dapiks (talk) 15:38, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

pictures can be misleading and estimating the size of a rally by a picture is original research. --Львівське (говорити) 16:12, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I am not saying we should just estimate based on the pictures but look to see if other sources give other numbers, at which point we could cite a range such as 1000 - to - whatever. Very nice map by the way Lvivske. Dapiks (talk) 17:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

is Korrespondent also biased? they too report 1000. So that's a major newspaper + local news. I think that should suffice. --Львівське (говорити) 16:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

"also biased?" yes, because this is obviously wrong information Cathry (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

it's not wrong, you're wrong. deal with it. --Львівське (говорити) 22:53, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Please don't attack another editors but use reliable sources.Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

WP:PROSELINE

This article needs a hefty dose of editing. The present "timeline" section is mostly inappropriate, and should be converted into prose form, per the essay WP:PROSELINE. I raised these concerns earlier, but they seem to have got worse. This is not a "timeline" article. If it were, perhaps such a timeline would be appropriate. But that's not what we need here. We need a properly described bit of prose details the events, not every little detail elucidated by date. RGloucester — ☎ 18:58, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree but I hope we shall create Timeline of the 2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine then... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:02, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to such a sub-article, however, before we can do that, we have to create an appropriate prose summary of the events here. RGloucester — ☎ 19:18, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:crystal for now, but these predications might come true...

... so it might be handy to watch out for:

• Separatists to use V-Day celebration to further destabilize Ukraine(, Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Andriy Parubiy has said)
• there are plans to destabilize the country in connection with the upcoming elections May 25 presidential elections(, according to Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Andriy Parubiy)

Not sure if #2 would involve pro-Russian protesters. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The separatists are going to slow down for now and elect a 'president' by the end of April (I guess to make up for the 'governors' all getting arrested). ref --Львівське (говорити) 20:45, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

not sure where to put this yet but it appears Donetsk workers are being forced to sign petitions on separatism link --Львівське (говорити) 21:39, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Bakhtiyarov

This link claims that Baktiyarov is a resident of Kiev, it seems to be compatible with his article Oleg Bakhtiyarov. On the other hand in many recent articles regarding his arrest he is described as a Russian resident. Can somebody check Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:32, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

the sources may be confused because he's from russia originally...is he a citizen?--Львівське (говорити) 05:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Where is the "Russian tanks in the Ukraine" report? Or is it a blatant POV pushing through fabricated narratives?

In the above discussion, IP 2.125.165.6 mentioned twice that CNN put a Russian military drill in Kaliningrad under the headline "Russian tank(s) in the Ukraine" (sic). I did a careful search and there is not a single mention about this report, even Russian media did not "reveal" this alleged big CNN lie. So please, 2.125.165.6, which eye of you saw this CNN lie, and where? 128.189.191.222 (talk) 16:03, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Donetsk

With the declaration by various parties in Donetsk of 'independence', this article is going to need some shaping up. I suggest a potential move to Eastern Ukrainian crisis, or something like that. RGloucester — ☎ 17:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I suggest just Ukrainian crisis this is effecting all of Ukraine in some kind of a way not just the eastern part. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:10, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

that's far too broad, this article's scope is on the pro-russian protest and separatist movement. Ukrainian crisis could mean Euromaidan and everything else in between —Львівське (говорити) 04:51, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

2014 Ukrainian separatist crisis? / 2014 eastern Ukraine protests? 2014 eastern Ukrainian crisis? Either way, this article is going to need to broaden its scope. RGloucester — ☎ 14:41, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Biased editors

Two pesrons - Yulia Romero and Львівське are keep working on this article. As we can see in their profiles they both are pro-ukrainian, which means they are unable to stay neutral. Because of it article full of intentional false and inaccurate information covered by most untrusted pro-goverment ukraianian media which were seen many times on lies. I suggest we should have someone who could edit from most objective point of view, considering all sources and trying to represent a real background of event without bias. I am asking to puy attention on this issue

Accusing one of bias is a pretty heavy load to swing around towards someone, do you have examples of what you claim with links to edits so that the ones you accuse can defend themselves? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Well these people do not hide their pro-Ukrainian orientation. As can be seen by their edits, profiles, rejection of Russian sources and limited selective sampling of news resources in favor of pro-Ukrainian version. The whole article is written this way. On internet are many reliable sources that claim the opposite things from given here information. Such controversial theme cannot be given in hands of non-neutral authors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yrisska (talk • contribs) 01:51, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Well can you post some of these sources here you say are reliable? We cant use blogs or forums and also keep in mind that every country reports things differently and at different speeds. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Couple links will not help. This article has become a mouthpiece of the Ukrainian government. Literally everything needs to be rewritten that to have at least some balance of neutrality. For now it is one-sided version, you can see the difference if look up Euromaidan article. I will try to back later with some sources. If you are interested i have some there, photos in general http://yrisska.livejournal.com/11744.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yrisska (talk • contribs) 02:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Livejournal isn't an WP:RS. Posting a propaganda/conspiracy blog makes it even worse. I particularly love this picture saying that the national guard has a swastika hidden its logo and that it's an image of Lucifer himself. Awesome find.--Львівське (говорити) 04:45, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Just because I'm Ukrainian doesn't mean I am "unable to stay neutral", further your accusations of inserting false and inaccurate information...and untrustworthy media...oh hell, these are bad faith accusations - enough. This is all baseless garbage, if you have a problem with a source, point it out. Yulia is a great editor and very neutral and hard working. I'm just editing as I see it in the news and media that I read during the day. If you have a problem, be direct, don't start on conspiracy theories or accuse others of being dishonest simply because of their user pages.--Львівське (говорити) 04:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Hey, what is going on? Why did you delete my edits? It was from relible sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yrisska (talk • contribs) 05:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

the statements by russia and russian tabloids? i stated in the edit summaries that its unrelated to the protests themselves and clutter. The Lavros statement was a giant block quote that served no purpose. We're trying to thin the article out from bloat. Also, just pointing out now that those images you uploaded are copyrighted and will be deleted by wiki commons in 24 hours. --Львівське (говорити) 05:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

You just deleted the whole quote and in the same time there are a lot of quotes from ukrainian goverments. That cannot be neutral, we have to have opinion from both sides. At least you could write fisrt it there, why you are so disdainful to other's work? Well you could just left couple words, but you just deleted. And about Dugin, there is no single proof that he has any connection with goverment, in Russia he is perceived as a crazy man, so why there was such disinformation like if he is someone so important. No need to delude people. I didn't touch your work, i added another point of view for the balance, but i see that no one care about any neutrality. Oh well Yrisska (talk) 05:53, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

where is there a giant quote from a ukrainian minister in the protests timeline? also, there isnt a weight issue, these are protests in ukraine, what a russian official says is irrelevant. --Львівське (говорити) 06:17, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

And yes, this is what Wikipedia supposed to be, no matter russian, ukrainian or american media - they are equal there Yrisska (talk) 05:56, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

for other users, this is what i removed, can someone else weigh in of its its relevant to the timeline? --Львівське (говорити) 06:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov called on the Kiev authorities to take urgent measures to build a national dialogue with all political forces and regions in Ukraine. He wrote in Theguardian: " Russia is doing all it can to promote early stabilisation in Ukraine. We are firmly convinced that this can be achieved through, among other steps: real constitutional reform, which would ensure the legitimate rights of all Ukrainian regions and respond to demands from its south-eastern region to make Russian the state's second official language; firm guarantees on Ukraine's non-aligned status to be enshrined in its laws, thus ensuring its role as a connecting link in an indivisible European security architecture; and urgent measures to halt activity by illegal armed formations of the Right Sector and other ultra-nationalist groups. De-escalation should begin with rhetoric. Belligerent statements such as those heard at the Nato foreign ministers meeting in Brussels on 1 April do not match demands for a de-escalation. It is time to stop the groundless whipping-up of tension, and to return to serious common work." [206]

"De-escalation should begin with rhetoric." fairly much clinched it for me. Aside from the inordinate amount of effort that would be required to copyedit this paragraph so as it actually makes a semblance of sense in the English language, I suspect that, "Belligerent statements such as those heard at the Nato foreign ministers meeting in Brussels..." won't translate terribly well as NPOV. Should I start at picking out more overtly POV content such as, "...illegal armed formations of the Right Sector and other ultra-nationalist groups..."; "... Russia is doing all it can to promote early stabilisation in Ukraine..."; is there anything in there that isn't tendentious? If that's to be the calibre of Wikipedia articles, I'm out of here. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:59, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Can Yrisska please give us examples of my alleged (by him) wrongdoing in this article? Claiming "being pro-ukrainian, which means they are unable to stay neutral", does that also mean that pro-russians should not edit this article also??? I used the BBC a lot... Since when is the BBC "untrusted pro-goverment ukraianian media"... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 13:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

 Comment: Doing changes as adding Russia to the belligerents with no sources or removing other sourced belligerents from the infobox is a clear example of POV-pushing and politically-driven editing, wich cannot be allowed.--HCPUNXKID 22:04, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

what are you talking about? you added unconfirmed speculation and removed stuff that was widely cited. Let's not throw stones in your glass house here.--Львівське (говорити) 22:07, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

Would it be a good idea to sort content by city, and then possibly split those sections into their own articles if the content was big enough? It seems silly to have this plus RSA occupations article PLUS the donetsk republic article. I think one meaty section on the separatist and pro-russian movement in donetsk as a whole would be better than dividing the content on two articles. --Львівське (говорити) 16:01, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

It is better to centralise the information, unless things in Donetsk escalate to the point where they really warrant a separate article. The new Donetsk People's Republic article is premature. I really think that the name of this article, however, needs to be changed to expand its scope. RGloucester — ☎ 16:12, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

• May I suggest the title 2014 eastern Ukrainian protests? RGloucester — ☎ 16:20, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

to rename this article? that seems less specific than 'pro-russian' and kind of cuts off Odessa —Львівське (говорити) 16:34, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

You're right about Odessa. The current name doesn't seem to represent the scope of the article at present, however. Especially if the Donetsk events are included here. The other possibility is to convert this to 2014 Ukrainian crisis, and then have it be an overarching article dealing with all the pro-Russian movements throughout Ukraine at the moment. It would have a small section of Crimea, and link to the 2014 Crimean crisis article, but it would mainly deal with the problems elsewhere. RGloucester — ☎ 16:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

between the protests and the separatists, its all still within the 'pro-russian' scope though, no? the separatist occupations could just go to the 2014 Ukrainian RSA Occupations article possibly —Львівське (говорити) 16:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is all 'pro-Russian', at least, I think it is…I'm just trying to be somewhat more concise. I do like the suggestion of having the occupations be in the 2014 Ukrainian RSA occupations article. RGloucester — ☎ 18:06, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I still think this should be named 2014 Ukrainian crisis a-lot of reliable sources including BBC have been using it as these events are taking place in Ukraine. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

'ukrainian crisis' refers to: euromaidan, the revolution, all protests, all pro-russian protests, the crimea invasion, and now the russian separatist movement. It's pretty vague and catch-all IMO —Львівське (говорити) 18:53, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's the point. We currently lack a 'catch-all' article. RGloucester — ☎ 19:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

So why cant we make one? All of these events are happening in Ukraine. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

a top of the pyramid-type, maybe a disambig page would be a good idea. Have the #redirect go to a page with links to all the major events. Right? Or were you thinking something else?—Львівське (говорити) 19:41, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I recommend a Wikipedia:Summary style article. A 'catch-all' article to cover the overarching crisis, and to direct people to the appropriate sub-articles. It is bizzare that we lack this, at the moment. There is a mire of articles, and it is very difficult to wade through the mire. RGloucester — ☎ 21:34, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

pro-Russian POV edits/revs

Just want to point this out. User:HCPUNXKID removed the GRU involvement (claimed by Ukrainian foreign ministry) but added American Blackwater involvement (unfounded speculation by Russia's foreign ministry, ridiculed by mainstream media). Further, user removed the fact that Russian tourists are involved, despite it being in the article itself and heavily sourced. Can someone else help here? --Львівське (говорити) 22:01, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

The changes you made in the infobox were unsourced, as well as clearly unbalanced trying to POV-push. I supposed that when you talk about "Blackwater involvement ridiculed by mainstream media" you are talking about WESTERN mainstream media, and that to source your allegations of "Russian tourists" and GRU involvement (mmm, interesting...so, if Russian foreign ministry claims Blackwater involvement is ridiculous, but if Ukrainian foreign ministry claims GRU involvement is very credible, curious double standard...), you are going to use "mainstream media" and not Ukrainian media, am I wrong?.--HCPUNXKID 22:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

add a fact tag then, don't just go blanking content. Nothing was unsourced, the sources are in the body. Now it seems you're edit warring other users to push this POV of yours, like adding the 'donetsk peoples republic' as a party to the protests.--Львівське (говорити) 22:30, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

First, from the moment the Donetsk People's Republic was declared, its one of the belligerents, thats crystal-clear, we like it or not. Second, you talk about blanking content when you simply erased the Blackwater sourced mention? Lets not be hypocrites, please...--HCPUNXKID 22:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

a state that doesnt exist cant be a belligerent, but the group that's occupying the buildings can be. Pushing an article that's up for deletion and seemingly set for merging/renaming seems very POVy. Yes, I removed the blackwater mention, because it's unsupport and wikipedia isnt a crystal ball or tabloid for speculation. --Львівське (говорити) 22:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Removing sourced content in WP has name: Vandalism. The state has been proclaimed, so its part of the conflict. From the moment the state was declared, the Donetsk Republic organization is part of the broader Donestk People's Republic, as it includes more groups (for example, the Eastern Front). And Im not pushing anything, seems that "who is at fault suspects everybody"...--HCPUNXKID 23:20, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

This isn't vandalism this is an edit dispute. Maybe we can come to a solution? I do not agree adding things without sources but agree here that Donetsk People's Republic should be changed to Donetsk Republic (organization) in the infobox. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:30, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed regarding Donetsk Republic (organization), Knowledgekid87. I'd also like to see a more substantial reference for 'Eastern Front'. An article where a journalist interviews a number of people and one claims to be from 'Eastern Front' which has about 6,000 members (according to the interviewee) doesn't constitute WP:V. It seems that overenthusiasm could affecting your neutral content, HCPUNXKID. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

So now mainstream media like CNN is also not enough for you? Wow, some editors here just dont know what to do to push their POV. Its funny to see diehard supporters of the "acting government" (or should we call it new regime?) talking about "neutrality"...--HCPUNXKID 09:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

So I put the sources in, not hard to find, just ctrl+f to see the refs from the article itself. The GRU op was arrested in Donetsk, so that's confirmed. The Blackwater fantasy allegations are speculation and unsubstantiated. They are Alpha Group Ukrainian spetznas. Blackwater has denied its there ("White House spokesperson Jay Carney told reporters the claim “seems bogus to us” and Geoffrey Pyatt, U.S. Ambassador to Russia, called it “rubbish.”). This content should be nuked immediately, Wikipedia is not a place for conspiracy junk or disseminating Russian propaganda as truth, otherwise we'd be calling the entire right column the fascist Judeo-American junta.--Львівське (говорити) 00:08, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I do not think they should be included, it would be a big leap to say Russia was involved, are any of the major news sources saying this? I looked at the sources provided and I think they should be removed in the infobox and in the article as "he said" "she said" comments. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:46, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I hid the additions for now, placing this in the article is huge and I feel a consensus should be reached first. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:51, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

how is arresting makarov hearsay? The involvement of Russian citizens and cossacks is pretty much common knowledge, we have a whole section on the article about arrested russian citizens / radicals. --Львівське (говорити) 01:11, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Words like "alleged" and "detained" are the problem, unless there is a direct link between Russia and what is going on here it is still up for debate. A person being detained doea not equal a whole country being involved. if you want to add "Russian radicals" though feel free. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Good call on the use of 'Russian radicals'. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I removed the Blackwater stuff, it's been debunked now, on top of Blackwater itself denying everything. Ukraine has actually arrested people and has name(s), Russia has hearsay, huge difference.

In short, the story follows the pattern we’ve seen so many times before with stories emanating from Russia — an uncheckable kernel of a story with an anonymous source, embellishment throughout the day, synapse jumps to the pro-Kremlin networks and tabloids, and pretty soon even credible outlets are covering it.

--Львівське (говорити) 03:29, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Cheers, Lvivske. That info has closed the lid on that particular conspiracy theory. In the meantime, I'm still trying to establish what the significance of the 'Eastern Front' under 'Parties to the civil conflict' actually is. Who are they? The English translation only yields the article referenced, and searches for news for Восточный Фронт (the Russian convolution of the name) throw up a variety of results, but most likely to pertain to the group in this, this, and this article. (All of these articles are in Russian, but google translate should give everyone the gist: if not, I can translate the salient points in brief.) The only thing they're clear on is that they're not associated with the Kharkiv group(?!) and use the term 'Benderovtsye'/'Banderivtsi' (a pejorative) a lot... although they're also adamant that they're not talking about 'Benderovtsye'. I have no idea of whether they're Vostochnyi Front groupies or a serious militant force. Are they just some like-minded people using twitter as their protest HQ, or are they formally organised? Until we get a handle on what is meant by 'Eastern Front', I really don't understand why HCPUNXKID slapped them into the infobox. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:18, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

 Comment: - Funny to see the double standards of some editors above, Russian foreign ministry claiming Blackwater involvement? Propaganda & conspiracy, but at the same time....Ukrainian foreign ministry claiming GRU involvement? Very credible (even when Kiev acting government-appointed Donetsk governor Sergei Tartuta denies Russia being behind the events), and moreover, if the U.S. government denies Blackwater involvement that is word of god, we all know here that U.S. gov. never, never lie (and by the way, I didnt know that Blackwater belongs to the U.S. government, I thought that it was a private security services provider, and not a U.S. state agency, wich is what some here seem to suggest...), come on, try to be (or just look) a little more neutral, please...--HCPUNXKID 09:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• As per this edit, it's equally as hilarious that you are preaching about neutrality. Limestoneforest (talk) 10:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
• By the same token, HCPUNXKID, we all know that the Russian government never lies. Seriously, stay on track. I'm not going to state that any governments are honest with a straight face, but Wikipedia does not indulge WP:FRINGE. As time passes, no doubt cover-ups from either side may or may not surface, but we don't indulge in conspiracy theories or original research. You seem to be under the illusion that you're the only person who is capable of sorting through the truth and lies. If this concept frustrates you, start a blog or join a forum.

You also haven't addressed the 'Eastern Front' issue. You're the one who thought them important enough to add to the infobox. So, who are they and why are they featured as one of the 'Parties to the civil conflict'? How significant is their presence, and what are the tenets of their organisation? If you don't know, why drag them out of a plethora of news stories just because one person being interviewed stated that he was a member? Please quantify and qualify their significance. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:27, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Can someone please remove the Blackwater stuff? Beyond being debunked, they were never even claimed to be involved by Russia, just loading a truck or something. At least with the GRU claim, they arrested the guy for being involved. --Львівське (говорити) 15:55, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Not quite. See Kremlin accuses U.S. security firm with links to Blackwater of sending 'private army' to Ukraine disguised as local forces. Whether it's been denied or not, it certainly stands as an official accusation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

True, it's an official accusation, but that doesn't verify it and it's still in the realm of hearsay. Russia also officially accuses Nazis of being the government in Kiev and Jews & Russians being under attack, but that obviously wouldn't make the cut for an infobox since they're unsupported accusations.--Львівське (говорити) 02:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• we now have ANOTHER Russian saboteur arrested, who also has confessed to taking part in the conflict and organizing. Can we stop hiding this info now? The 'arrested Russians' section is far too big to pretend they're not involved, and doing so would look like a huge POV push --Львівське (говорити) 22:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• I have added Russian activists and radicals to the infobox, I would oppose adding Russian personal though until it can be confirmed as right now it is "alleged" - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:53, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Draft article proposal

As I mentioned above, I'd like to create a summary article to serve as a 'catch-all' round-up of the current crisis. As such, I've created a draft: Draft:2014 Ukrainian crisis. This article is meant to direct people to the appropriate pages, to give background and details on the whole crisis. I'd like to take this current article, 2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine, and convert it to a timeline article, as it mostly functions that way anyway. I'd like it if people would help me in working on the draft article so that we can get it into shape, that'd be appreciated. It is currently in barebones shape, but I'll keep working on it. I really could use the help of the editors that have been contributing to this article. Thanks, RGloucester — ☎ 20:07, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

You're draft looks interesting, except I think the crisis began with the start of Euromaidan, not the at the end of it. Charles Essie (talk) 20:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

We'll hash that out in time. Right now, I just want to get the basics up and running. RGloucester — ☎ 20:33, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, if it's just crisis, then it's everything since the fall. If it's 2014...then the revolution counts, but you cant do that without the 2013 stuff. I think a better name may be needed to define the scope to be the eastern ukraine stuff...but at the same time, there already is an article on that, and this just looks like a far better version of the pro-Russia article. I think this should replace that, and the old stuff turn into a timeline as you suggested. —Львівське (говорити) 20:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking. Convert all the timeline stuff here into a timeline article. Then, have the new article be a 'background' article. We can come up with a title later. 'Ukrainian crisis' doesn't have to be used. It is merely a working title. RGloucester — ☎ 20:46, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• I think I've revised the idea somewhat. What I would do is rather simple. I'd take the draft, the summary article (still very much a work in progress), and put it at the same title as here '2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine'. I'd then split off the timeline as Timeline of the 2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine. I think this would be the easier way to accomplish what needs to be done. RGloucester — ☎ 23:12, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• Is anyone opposed to the proposal? It is nearly ready to be implemented, if no one is opposed. It would entail, as I said above, the splitting off of the timeline to Draft:Timeline of the 2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine, and introduction of Draft:2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine as the new structure of this article. RGloucester — ☎ 23:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• I've implemented the proposal. The timeline is now at Timeline of the 2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine, and this article is now a summary page. I hope this will allow our content to be much better organised. RGloucester — ☎ 00:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

excellent work!--Львівське (говорити) 01:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I second that! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:52, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Third here =) Also the map image is already being contested as being WP:POV. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:30, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• Is there a problem with the animated map? I think I might suggest making the animation slower, but, other than that, I don't see how it could be PoV to show both sides, as long as the statistics are correct. RGloucester — ☎ 02:41, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Blinking POV image

I am not going to start an edit war, but I definitely should warn other editors about Львівське's image in the article - File:UkraineProtests2014.gif. Firstly, it is absolutely unsourced. Secondly, it is obviously a POV image, just look at Crimea. As you can see on the picture - there were 10,000+ pro-Ukrainian protesters in Crimea and only 1,000+ pro-Russian protesters. It sounds biased. Also, I recommend not to use that blinking effect, it is really unconfortable to read the article. —83.237.124.6 (talk) 02:47, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

First, it's not unsourced - literally everything is sourced in the article. Second, I don't see how it's POV; your argument is that it sounds biased, but the coloring is just based on the sources, all found in the table of the article. AFAIK, there was a single very large Tatar protest but several smaller pro-Russian protests, which would explain the variance. Not liking the 'blinking' is a valid complaint, but I guess others could weigh on that as well. Maybe just have both maples vertically aligned? I thought it would alleviate vertical clutter.--Львівське (говорити) 02:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• Would you prefer if we reverted to an updated version of this one? RGloucester — ☎ 02:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I removed the 'occupied' part when I updated it because the article was about protests so I stuck the data strictly to protests, trying to be neutral and not veer in scope. --Львівське (говорити) 02:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

A possible solution is to place the two pictures (separate, rather than blinking) in the section with the tables, on the right. There is plenty of room for them there, and then the sourcing will be present as well. We can find a prettier picture for the infobox. RGloucester — ☎ 03:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

sounds good to me --Львівське (говорити) 03:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Do we really need a number for the protests on the map? Numbers are not a good way to show something in active conflicts like this as they change so much and sources are not very accurate. Instead I propose that we just highlight all of the regions involved one color. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

As I said, I have deep concerns on the veracity of the protest situation in Crimea according to Lvivske's picture (10,000 pro-Ukrainian VS 1,000 pro-Russian). I have never read or heard about such a big difference. --83.237.124.6 (talk) 03:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The tatar protest was 5-15k, the Russian protest in Simferopol was 2,000. It's all in the news if you want to read up.--Львівське (говорити) 03:08, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

the issue with that, which was brought up before, was that heat maps give context and a single color would give undue weight (ie Kherson, had a few hundred, but its the same color as Donetsk, which has thousands)--Львівське (говорити) 03:08, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

A single color though if explained in the image caption can stand for the regions involved. There is less of an argument to make there. Combine the pro/anti protests into one color that stands for "being involved" in anti/pro Ukraine protests. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:19, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't really serve any purpose, though, and is vague. I suppose it might be possible to do 'red/blue stripes' to indicate places with concurrent protests of both kinds, but that doesn't really accomplish anything other than explain the geographic location of the protests. I agree that the numbers can be shaky, but not if we keep on top of them. RGloucester — ☎ 03:21, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• The numbers are fine, and provide definition, as long as they are sourced and updated. It would be nice if you could update both the Ukrainian and Russian ones as separate pictures (with markers that say pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian). RGloucester — ☎ 03:15, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• Is more than one source saying the same thing for each protest when it comes to the numbers? if one source is saying 10,000 and another 1,000 then its a problem. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

the color coding rests on a pretty wide range for the most part to allow for those variances. —Львівське (говорити) 03:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the sourcing needs to be listed on the image's page. If reliable sources are cited, that's the best we can do, isn't it? RGloucester — ☎ 03:25, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I like the idea of the numbers RG but I feel uneasy about the sourcing and keeping on top of it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Alright. What would we replace it with, though? Just plain geographical mapping? Perhaps indications as to whether the RSA was occupied? We could have levels like:

• Protests
• RSA occupation
• Unilateral declaration of independence
• Military occupation

Or something like that, which is more qualifiable than the numbers. I'm no good with Adobe Illustrator at the moment, but if someone would care to make a map to these specifications, that'd be appreciated. RGloucester — ☎ 03:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

While the new image by RG is nice looking, Kharkiv and Luhansk do not have occupied RSA's, which the image implies. This should be addressed. --Львівське (говорити) 20:01, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I think it needs to be clarified that the 'RSA occupied' means that there 'has been' an occupation, not that one is ongoing. Any good ideas on how to clarify this? RGloucester — ☎ 20:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

• I added a caption stating that it indicates 'severity of protests at their peak', which seems to be appropriate. RGloucester — ☎ 20:27, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
• The charts with the maps are out of alignment. In the pro-Russian one, it goes from latest protest to earliest, whereas in pro-Ukrainian, it goes from earliest to latest. This needs to be fixed. RGloucester — ☎ 20:50, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Two notes

• Now that Timeline of the 2014 pro-Russian protests in Ukraine has been split off from this article, please don't forget about it and let it become outdated. That's often a problem with sub articles, so I just wanted to provide a little reminder.

• I'd also like to ask people not to insert references that just contain a bare URL. This is bad form, and makes it hard to determine what each reference refers to. This has been a great problem with this article, and most of the current references are going to have to be filled out by hand. Please use these templates, and fill out the information that applies:
• Template:Cite news

cite news |last= |first= |date= |title= |trans_title= |url= |language= |newspaper= |location= |publisher= |accessdate=

• Template:Cite web

cite web |url= |title= |last1= |first1= |last2= |first2= |date= |website= |publisher= |accessdate= |language=

ProveIt a user script which can help fill out these templates in a much quicker fashion. Thanks, RGloucester — ☎ 15:32, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I'll probably keep inserting bare URLs, it's just how I roll. Sorry. —Львівське (говорити) 15:45, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I'll fill them out, then. I only have problems when I get hit with links in Cyrillic. RGloucester — ☎ 15:47, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

oh yeah, those are a pain. I do it in full if I have time, if I casually see something my news feed that looks important I'll try to quickly get it into the timeline before I forget about it. I have like 3 open tabs right now of important stuff I just haven't got around to. --Львівське (говорити) 15:50, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Boilerplates

What specific areas/issues are the 'multiple issues' boilerplate referring to? I can't address them if I don't know what they are, and if there are not any, the boilerplate should be removed. RGloucester — ☎ 19:53, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Infobox needs to be resized

It's freakin' huge.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:44, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Time to move the article?

When I look at this article I see both pro Russian and Pro Ukraine protests being mentioned, I feel that if we move the article then it would have more of a balanced coverage. Any ideas for new possible titles? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

just want to point out that the pro-ukraine stuff is counter to the pro-russian stuff, so its related (anti-war, anti-putin, pro-unity, anti-federalization, etc.) --Львівське (говорити) 15:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The only pro-Ukraine protests mentioned are the 'counter-protests' which are merely a reaction to the pro-Russian protests. That's why they are mentioned. I don't think a title change is warranted, as there really are no good alternative titles that will not cause problems. RGloucester — ☎ 15:23, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I feel though that this article could be expanded with a new title, why have an article for just the pro-Russian protests? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe it might be WP:UNDUE weight to give the pro-Ukraine protests their own article, considering that they are in response to the pro-Russian ones. What would you suggest as a neutral alternative title? RGloucester — ☎ 15:27, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• On a different note, could Lvivske please update the 'pro-Russian protests map' to be in line with the chart? It appears that the charts shows higher amounts of protests in some area, and the sources seem to check out. RGloucester — ☎ 15:23, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

which regions? --Львівське (говорити) 15:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Luhansk and Kharkiv seem out-of-date. If you save the map in SVG format, others can update it too, which will make life easier. RGloucester — ☎ 15:31, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

the sources are out of wack for those, the kharkiv source is a range from 2-15k, the latter less reliable. If it's an SVG I'd say less people could edit it, since PNGs are universal and can be used by raster editors while SVGs are space age stuff. --Львівське (говорити) 16:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

SVGs are preferable because they can be easily updated with Inkscape or Adobe Illustrator. It is always good to have an SVG version of this type of map. I'll look for Kharkiv/Luhansk sources. RGloucester — ☎ 16:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Kharkiv and Luhansk

• This source, which is reliable enough (AFP sourced), estimates about 2000 people at the Kharkiv protest on 6 April. Perhaps we should replace the current bits in the chart? RGloucester — ☎ 16:13, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree but then the question is, which was the previous highest protest before the bad sources were used? I guess its mentioned on the timeline somewhere...ugh--Львівське (говорити) 16:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• I can find no way to verify the 9 March Luhansk protest. The present source is horrible. I've found vague reports about 'protesters', but no numbers. I've added a tag. However, I think it should most likely be removed. RGloucester — ☎ 16:36, 12 April 2014 (UTC)