Talk:2014 Isla Vista killings

Getting too much publicity?

Just look at dailymail. What else is there that should really be said. Well, Hollywood born Elliot Rodger is finally a star. All of the girls notice him now...lol. They also keep calling him "virgin killer" lol.. - WikiOriginal-9 (talk)

Label as Misogynistic

We have had multiple edits both adding and removing reference to "misogynistic", We have also had attempts to label this event as "misandrist", and a "violence against men" tag. I expect this to continue to be a problem on this article.

Southern Poverty Law Center refers to this crime specifically as misogynistic, and misogyny motivated. SPLC-Misoynistic posts point to motive

Southern Poverty Law Center has a very long history as a non-profit civil rights organization that deals with and brings hate crimes to light in the United States. They are used by the FBI and police for both information and training, are highly regarded academically, and sited nationally as authorities on hate crimes, hate groups, and events.

Elliot Rodger's manifesto, videos, motives, and personal posts on misogynistic hate sites were, in fact, misogynistic as per Southern Poverty Law Center.

I move that any further mass removal of "Misogynistic" within the article first be discussed on the talk page to avoid edit wars WP:EW

Please discuss possible addition of "Misandrist", gender specific body counts, ect in a different talk page topic section with your citation. Thank you. Kaldar5 (talk) 06:44, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

He seemed to equally hate men and women alike, and in the attack killed two women as opposed to four men. In his Manifesto he complains a lot about women choosing "dumb brutes" to date and how modern men and women are evil. There seems to be as much evidence to label him misogynist as there is to label him misandrist. Both labels could be applied, or he could be described as a general misanthrope. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 20:28, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

He expressed hatred and anger towards men only insofar as he perceived them as monopolizing the sex and attention from women that he was entitled to. The death toll is a red herring without knowing a) the gender of the people who crossed his path during the spree, and b) the gender breakdown of the wounded victims (which I have not seen reported). It's plain for those who have eyes to see that this attack was motivated by misogyny, so I would support keeping a discussion of misogyny---properly supported by reliable, third-party sources, of course---in the article and any discussion of misandry out. SS451 (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Misanthrope probably is a better label since he did express hatred towards both women and men. He was also selective in his hatred towards women, specifically saying that it was "white" women he was attracted to. Cla68 (talk) 23:49, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Further agreement that Misanthrope is more accurate than misogynist. Also see: http://nypost.com/2014/05/27/rogen-apatow-slam-critic-who-blamed-them-for-elliot-rodger-rampage/ http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.ca/2014/05/elliot-rodger-wasnt-misogynist.html ACanadianToker (talk) 16:54, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's an interesting read too: http://dissention.wordpress.com/2014/05/30/was-elliot-rodger-a-misogynist/. A lot of people claiming the misogynist are typically quoting one or two paragraphs out of the whole without looking at the rest of the content! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.182.116 (talk) 10:53, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Worth a mention, I think, being the only cold, analytical approach to the question in the subsection. I added it. Mandruss (talk) 12:29, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

WWGB immediately reverted, citing RS and OR. If the fact that it's a blog makes it un-RS or OR, then much of the rest of the subsection needs to be removed. As blogs go, this one looks fairly high quality to me. WWGB, could you explain here for the benefit of us uninitiated? Mandruss (talk) 12:44, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The anonymous blogger conducted original research and then self-published it. There are so many alarm bells the noise is deafening! WWGB (talk) 12:53, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with a source conducting original research - indeed it's what we rely on, so it's rather daft to critique the source for having done OR. What isn't acceptable is the fact that it's an anonymous blogs. Blogs are only accepted as RS under very specific circumstances, and anonymous blogs not tied to outlets with editorial control are never acceptable as RS as far as I know.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:11, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the more thorough, less dismissive and condescending response. I'll accept yours as the more accurate one. Mandruss (talk) 19:22, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the blog makes interesting points, and I seriously doubt any of the other reporters have done that sort of research. What seems clear to me is, Rodgers hated many people, including women (perhaps not all women, but large swathes of them), and men (maybe not all men, but only sexually successful ones). Misanthrope is a fair title, but one could also call him a misandrist and a misogynist. I do think the violence and hatred against certain men that he exhibited is not being given enough coverage, so we'll have to wait to see if more sources come along covering that angle.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

"Misogynist" is one perspective on the events, but if used should refer to specific portions of his writings and video where applicable and not the attacks which were demonstrably indiscriminate by gender. At a high level for the article, we should not be overusing the term.Mattnad (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The lead

I re-wrote the first paragraph in the lead to be more in line with WP:LEAD. I also think a second paragraph summarizing his manifesto and retribution video is warranted in the lead as it is a notable and relevant part of this story. There is plenty of content already in the body of the article to support a summary in the lead if another editor wanted to tackle it (meaning I'm too lazy right now to do it). Isaidnoway (talk) 23:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Opposed to manifesto in the lead, since the article title is about the killings and the manifesto is secondary to the killings. If that makes any sense. Opposed to exchanges of gunfire with police in the lead, since I think it's too much detail for the lead. I'd just say something to the effect that (1) the spree ended when his vehicle crashed into another, and (2) he was found dead with a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Mandruss (talk) 00:39, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I think of the lead as the Cliff Notes for the article---for someone who only wants the basic facts. That person doesn't care about the manifesto, or the gunfire exchanges which had no effect on the outcome. Mandruss (talk) 00:46, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:LEAD suggests that we summarize, which is what I did. I summarized the content that is in the Section titled Events and it's sub-sections; Killing spree and Police response, attacker's death. The single sentence about the exchange of gunfire and his death are merely a summary of the "Police response, attacker's death" sub-section. I don't see an issue with that. My suggestion about the manifesto and the video was because it was a significant and relevant part of this story that is evidenced by the content that is devoted to it that is currently in the body of the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:48, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe there should be a very brief summary of the manifesto in the lede. Not only is it integral to almost every coverage of the shootings in the media, it is also generally accepted to be his motive --31.205.21.96 (talk) 01:54, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll change my position after sleeping on it. It occurred to me that I've seen much longer leads in lots of high quality articles, so apparently my feelings are at odds with the community. I say take a first shot at it, and all of us can work on the lead over time as we have the rest of the article (which I think is looking fairly good). Mandruss (talk) 09:57, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the article is looking fairly good. The story has received commentary from all sorts of angles but I think the article here is actually one of the more neutral summaries --31.205.21.96 (talk) 19:37, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Second paragraph

The 2nd and 3rd sentence in the 2nd para of the lead need to be re-worded to reflect the appropriate chronology of the spree. The way it currently reads implies that immediately after stabbing his roommates, he shot at bystanders and hit four people with his car. However, according to the source provided, [1], the Sheriff says that after stabbing his roommates, he then drove to the sorority house first where the next killings took place and then drove to the deli, rather than "speeding around Isla Vista shooting at bystanders and hitting people with his car". The killings at the sorority house and deli took place before he was speeding around and shooting and hitting people with his car. A minor inconsistency that can be easily remedied. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:06, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

 Done Did my best. In the number shot outside the sorority house, I deliberately omitted the graze injury; if I received a graze injury I wouldn't consider myself shot. The "victim" herself stated that she didn't even bleed. I don't even think that needs to be in the article, but whaaaaaatever. Mandruss (talk) 18:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks!-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Of course the next objection will be that it mentions two of the non-fatal shootings while omitting the remainder of them. Starting with the number in the lead infobox and doing some arithmetic, I think one could deduce that number as two five. And one might reasonably surmise that they both all occurred after the deli. However, I haven't seen a source that specifically says that. Further, I think even doing the arithmetic would be considered OR. It's a conundrum or a sticky wicket, depending on one's side of the pond. Mandruss (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Correction, that's five. I think. Making the conundrum/sticky wicket that much worse. Mandruss (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Rodger biography

Either wikipedians have not read Rodger's autobiography, or they are clearly lying. Rodger never stopped receiving mental help (new psychologists, new counselors, new social skills coaches), until he stopped for the last few days, obviously. The claim that he refused mental help after 2012 is false. All the rest is highly POV, except that the only POV we don't get, is Rodger's. Truth is, his POV has the best sources (Manifesto), while all other claims are doubtful hearsay from tabloids etc. I've started trying to balance things out a bit, adding Rodger's explanation why he at some point in his youth became "compulsively obsessed with proving to everyone that [he] wasn't poor". His side of the story can't be mentioned without refering to the on-going conflict he had with his stepmother, who eventually kicked him out, when he was 18, which is 4 years before the killings. I read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP and I understand that writing about real living people is very delicate, and that according to Jimmy Wales, "no information is preferred to false information." But here, I'm not claiming anything unverifiable. He was bullied at Pinecrest for living in a "poor" house (his mother's), and was eventually kicked out of his father's house by his stepmother (though he says later that she got his father to kick him out). This is not my "opinion". Just trying to balance out a very POV biography. Yes, he murdered 6 people. But I don't think it's too early to analyze coldly what lead to it, instead of using Wikipidia as an outlet for distraught people, and mental health professionals who won't admit they failed. Please check my source (Ctrl+F the pdf Manifesto, I can also state the pages numbers, though it's usually not required) and help improve what I added instead of vandalizing all the research I made. Memory.--86.77.192.70 (talk) 15:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

The reason Wikipedia frowns on using primary sources for content in articles is because of the very passage you wrote in your last sentence - "all the research I made". Wikipedia doesn't allow editing of articles that is based on an editor's original research. Try and find some secondary sources that are reliable that have discussed these very same issues that you raised in your edit, then you will have a better chance of inclusion of the material. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:47, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Even to my fastest skim looking over it just now, it seems like there's a lot in that biography that deserves to be mined. His description of dropping up to $700 a month on the lottery - if there is really anybody out there looking for warning signs, you know somebody doing that is heading for a crack-up. His over-the-top rape-eugenics philosophy deserves a showcase (he repeats three variants on "If women had the freedom to choose which men to mate with, like they do today, they would breed with stupid, degenerate men, which would only produce stupid, degenerate offspring.") Of course, it is better to have secondary source discussion than editors cherry-picking favorite quotes from a primary source, and I think that should be feasible, but no matter what... hearing from the subject is always good in a biography. Wnt (talk) 05:11, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Not only does his bio section need to be pruned, there are other sections with bloated material as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:52, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Sex of the surviving shooting victims

Has this been reported in any media yet? So far every source I can found establishes them simply as unnamed, unidentified number of victims. 58.7.92.174 (talk) 00:46, 31 May 2014 (UTC) CaseyYippie

Does it matter? Once the spree started, the violence was pretty random and opportunistic based on what has been reported.Mattnad (talk) 13:00, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, he indiscriminately killed men and women. We should not downplay the losses of either gender. He may have fantasised about committing femicide but as soon as he acted it seemed clear he just wanted to kill as many people as possible --31.205.21.96 (talk) 19:30, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Diagram Rodger made

Here is an image Rodger allegedly made and uploaded to his own Facebook, purportedly detailing his plans for an "Eliot Rodger Revolution". Worth putting the article? FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 22:27, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

No IMHOMattnad (talk) 23:06, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

No, not encyclopedic. But somewhat interesting anyway. Mandruss (talk) 23:29, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

The article for that is [2]. Searching for the "Elliot Rodger Revolution" turns up a range of useful commentary, not necessarily about this image, so it may be a notable phrase. Let's just hope it's not contagious. (Hmmm, I'm almost thinking that's worth a See Also....) Wnt (talk) 01:58, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Killing spree: play-by-play

My feelings are that we don't need a play-by-play of the driving part of the spree, at a level of detail that allows the reader to follow it on a map. To me, that has a sensationalist feel that doesn't belong at Wikipedia. I think it would suffice to provide a complete outline of the events, omitting street names, turns, and directions. Apparently, the community disagrees, since it's been in the article for over a week, including review by more experienced editors than me.

If we're going to have that, it should be clear and complete, to the degree supported by sources. It is currently neither clear nor entirely complete. The best way to do that is with a map, and I know an editor who enjoys making maps and has done one for me before. That would be "own work" and could be included without a copyright issue. The map in this article could be used as a basis, and it seems accurate as far as I can tell.

Comments? Mandruss (talk) 15:51, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Add: I see two discrepancies between the map and the article as it now stands. The article says there were 8 non-fatal shootings, whereas the map shows only 6 (the black "person" symbols). The missing two are:

• The graze wound victim at the sorority house.
• The boyfriend of the graze victim. The text annotating the map does not mention this. The only source I have seen for this is a quote of the graze victim saying her boyfriend had been wounded. This would need to be resolved before making the map.

Also, the map does not show non-gunshot injuries, probably because (1) not enough is known about their locations, and/or (2) it would clutter the map and make it difficult to read. Comments on that would also be appreciated. Mandruss (talk) 21:06, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Somebody has added this sentence to the second para in the Killing spree section; He then drove around Isla Vista in his car, which includes a hot link to a map of the various crime scenes [3], I didn't check the map for accuracy, but that sentence is worded a little odd - under the circumstances, and I don't think a hot link should be included like that, I think a "note" there would work better or maybe putting the "map" in the external links section. Isaidnoway (talk) 05:19, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you about the hot link (or whatever the correct term for that is). At the same time I doubt many people will see the Note at the end of the section. But some sort of a map is critical to one's understanding of the events (again, if we really need that level of understanding). The best overall solution is our own map, a thumbnail of which could be included alongside the text. But that's not going to happen if I'm the only one who feels this way. I would need both a consensus and some participation, since I can't do it alone. Mandruss (talk) 18:59, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Identity of Therapist

There were a few places in sections 1.3 (Aftermath) and 3.3 (Manifesto and Online Posts) that referred to Charles Sophy as Rodger's therapist. This therapist received Rodger's manifesto by email. However, the news articles that are used as references do no mention Charles Sophy by name. While Sophy apparently treated Rodger at one time, according to "My Twisted World" Rodger had not seen him since September. There is also at least one other person mentioned in the manifesto who could be considered Rodger's therapist. Therefore, unless an article can be found that mentions Charles Sophy by name as the one who received the manifesto via email and was in contact with his family on the day of the incident, I suggest that we refer to this person using the more generic term "therapist." Danni Ruthvan (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Good move imo. Actually I would be happier without identifying Sophy at all. Sandy Hook, VA Tech, and Columbine --- all mature and high quality articles --- refer to a psychiatrist or psychiatric care without naming the people involved. I would be interested in the motive of anyone who wanted to know that information. Mandruss (talk) 18:36, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Less is more. This is an encylopedia after all - not a tabloid.Mattnad (talk) 19:49, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Facebook page deleted

I think his Facebook page got deleted, I can't find it anywhere on the site. WikiOriginal-9 (talk)