Talk:Power Rangers Megaforce

Goseiger

Ryulong: We should be discussing this here on the article's talk page, not on my talk page. Now in the discussion from 2 years ago at Talk:Power Rangers Samurai#Shinkenger it was decided that it be can said in the Power Rangers Samurai article that it's an adaptation Samurai Sentai Shinkenger, because it's common sense to say so per WP:COMMON. As for reliable sources, there's a promotion photo that shows the Goseiger costumes in the KidScreen news article that is reference 1. As well, the news articles from Ledger-Enquirer and WRBL that are references 12 and 13 have photos that show the cast of Megaforce in the Goseiger costumes. I don't have compare the two images to come to a conclusion by myself because anyone who looks at the two images will come to same conclusion. That's common sense and therefore not original research. Powergate92Talk 19:37, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

No. Because you are the only one raising the issue. In the discussion 2 years ago I backed down because you wouldn't accept the fact that your own personal identification that the photos and costumes in all the press material were from Shinkenger (now it's Goseiger) is still WP:OR. I know it's Goseiger, but we cannot print that fact here until it's officially stated by the production team. I am going to be firm about this this year. Until something from Saban says both "Megaforce" and "Goseiger" in it, this page will not make any mention of the Super Sentai Series that you and I and the fandom most definitely know is the source for this year's program. Our inherent knowledge of the subject is not enough to make that conclusion and that is all I am going to say on this matter unless it comes to a dispute resolution board.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:34, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

1) I was not the only one who disagreed with you in those discussions from 2 years, User:Charles RB, User:NotARealWord, User:Rick lay95, and User:Digifiend also disagreed with you because they came to the conclusion as I. 2) WP:SYNTHESIS is about when two different sources say two different things, don't make your own conclusion. This is in no way the same thing. 3) Since we seem to be at a complete disagreement, I'm starting a WP:Requests for comment below. Powergate92Talk 04:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

To respond to 1), none of them are regular editors and there were discussions on other noticeboards regarding the nature of the dispute and nothing came of it until I threw my hands in the air in defeat. To respond to 2), WP:SYNTHESIS is most indeed the same thing as what's going on here. You are looking at photographs of the Goseigers and looking at photographs of the Megaforce Power Rangers and coming to (the correct but previously unpublished) conclusion that the two are one in the same. And 3) is fine.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Is this common sense or original research?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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As can be seen in the above discussion, User:Ryulong and I are at a complete disagreement on whether or not it can be said in the article that, at the least Power Rangers Megaforce uses costumes from Tensou Sentai Goseiger, at the most that Megaforce will be an adaptation of Goseiger, based the fact that reliable sources have photos showing that the Goseiger costumes will be used in Megaforce. Ryulong believes that it is original research to say this because none of the sources say it. I believe that it's common sense to say this per WP:COMMON, as reliable sources have photos showing the Goseiger costumes will be used in Megaforce. News articles from KidScreen and Licensing.biz about Power Rangers Megaforce actually show the same photo of the Goseiger costumes that is used on the official Goseiger website, but with a different background. As well, news articles from Ledger-Enquirer[1] and WRBL[2] show the Power Rangers Megaforce cast in the Goseiger costumes. Powergate92Talk 04:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

As I state above, Powergate92 is most definitely violating WP:NOR (and specifically WP:SYN) when it comes to the fact that his conclusion should be mentioned in the article. While I will concede that his conclusion about the two subjects is correct, we here at the English Wikipedia cannot state this information because of our policies that state all content should be verifiable and reliably sourced. Until the credits roll on episode 1 and the name "GOSEIGER" appears within, the English Wikipedia cannot make this conclusion even if it is blatantly right.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I see no WP:SYN breach. The information isn't combined from the two sources, the two sources are showing the exact same thing - the confirmed cast members in Goseiger costumes. Digifiend (talk) 13:05, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

The information is indeed combined from two sources (even if it is correct). After all, he's explicitly referring to looking at the photographs from one website and comparing them with another. As an encyclopedia that relies on providing verifiable content that is reliably sourced we cannot publish original content, no matter how correct it may be. This is why we cannot post anything regarding any of the Super Sentai programs on this page until we have a reliable source that states it. Try to look at this matter as an outsider rather than as someone who knows what "Tensou Sentai Goseiger" is.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:10, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

The content is reliably sourced (see above links) and is verifiable as anyone who looks at the images can verify that they are the same costumes. Verifying the content this way is in no way different from using a TV show as the source for its own plot, which is done in most TV shows articles. In that case, in order to verify the TV show's plot, someone would have to watch the TV show. Powergate92Talk 01:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

There's no reliable source to say that the two are one in the same. We are asking the readers to come to that conclusion as we have which is not what we are supposed to do on Wikipedia.—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:18, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

No source needs to say it as they are clearly the same costumes in the photos at the reliable sources above. They so clearly the same costumes that it's common sense, and would be hard for anyone not to come to that conclusion. With that, even if this did violate "the precise wording of a rule" of WP:SYNTHESIS (I believe it does not), WP:SYNTHESIS can be ignored under WP:Ignore all rules per WP:COMMON. Now, I believe this does not violate WP:SYNTHESIS, as that rule is about if two different sources say two different things, don't make your own conclusion that those 2 things are related. This is in no way the same case as we have the same photo that shows the same costumes published in reliable sources, one showing that they were used for Goseiger, the other showing that are being used for Megaforce. In addition to that, we have a few reliable sources that show the Megaforce cast in the costumes. Powergate92Talk 18:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, I disagree with the application of WP:IAR here. And WP:SYN does not refer to two sources saying two different things. It just says taking what two sources say to make your own conclusion about the content. This is exactly what you're doing even if it is correct. And this isn't really a requests for comment as it's just you, myself, and Digifiend rehashing all the shit that went on 2 years ago. I assumed an RFC would actually involve outside editors of which none ever show up. I will be posting on WP:3O to get that input.—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Requests for comment's run for 30 days, it has not even been 2 days yet. Be patient, other will comment when they comment. I will leave a note about this discussion at WT:WikiProject Television so more uninvolved editors can know about it. Powergate92Talk 22:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

3O Response: Our task as editors is to report what experts have written. Unless you can find an expert who has written regarding the difference between the two photos in question and are able to cite that source, this fits the definition of WP:OR ReformedArsenal (talk) 19:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

If what you said were true, using a TV show as the source for its own plot would be original research, because it would not be reporting "what experts have written." However, that is not the case. Powergate92Talk 22:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly right. Consider the following analogous situation... If I'm working on the article for War and Peace, and provide a summary of the plot and major developments in the book, I am contributing my own research and perspective. What I should do instead is find an expert who has done this already, and if such an expert is not available for a given subject then perhaps we need to question the WP:GNG of the topic at hand. ReformedArsenal (talk) 02:29, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

I think with fiction it is okay to use the work of fiction of itself as a reliable source so long as you only report on the facts provided.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:32, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia policy WP:PSTS says: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source." Citing primary sources for a plot section without interpretation does not qualify as original research. -- Wikipedical (talk) 05:33, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Summarizing or describing the plot is inherently an act of interpretation. ReformedArsenal (talk) 15:26, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

That's your opinion, but Wikipedia policy makes an exception. -- Wikipedical (talk) 18:37, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

3O Response: The conclusion that the costumes are the same without a reliable source is most certainly original research. In the comments, Powergate92 said, "They so clearly the same costumes that it's common sense, and would be hard for anyone not to come to that conclusion." Wikipedia's role is to provide verifiable and verified information, not to lead readers to make conclusions, no matter how "clear." I am not an expert on costumes and would definitely not be one to make judgments based on images. -- Wikipedical (talk) 05:41, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for laying this out properly. Two years ago I was fighting an uphill battle against Powergate92 and his (and other editors') insistence that we preemptively state the obvious concerning the Japanese origins of the previous season(s). However, trips to WP:NORN and WP:RSN proved fruitless as it appeared no one wanted to touch that dispute (now renewed this year) with a 10 foot pole.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

As I said above, the information is verifiable as news articles from KidScreen and Licensing.biz about Power Rangers Megaforce show the same photo of the Goseiger costumes that is used on the official Goseiger website. That, as well as the news articles from Ledger-Enquirer and WRBL which show the Megaforce cast in the Goseiger costumes, verify that the costumes will be used Power Rangers Megaforce. With that, the information is verifiable and can be verified by looking at the images, just as a TV show's plot is verifiable and can be verified by watching the TV show. Powergate92Talk 20:01, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Powegate92, these 3rd opinion editors have pointed out that even if you point out that this image is identical to this image, we at the English Wikipedia cannot under any circumstances post that very valid conclusion of yours in the article space. There is a difference between watching a show and saying what happens in the show and showing two images side by side and saying they're identical. You can definitely say that the images depict humanoid figures wearing yellow, blue, red, blue, and pink costumes and that they're all wielding weapons, but you cannot publish the conclusion that because the two images are identical and because thy're used in the promotional materials for two television programs, one of which came out 2 years ago, that one begat the other.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:11, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ryulong

Just wanted to say that you are a fucking idiot. I don't give a shit what WP:This or WP:That says, you're full of shit and everyone knows it. You're a disgrace to the fucking fandom, if you are a fan and not just some Wiki blowhard that absolutely refuses to stray from the book. I don't know what pedestal you think you're on but you need to step the fuck down and realize that some of the shit that you type is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Goseiger is Megaforce. There doesn't need to be proof. The proof is in the Zords, the suits, and what production staff have been saying. I don't give a shit if Megaforce hasn't aired yet, it is a fucking Goseiger adaptation and I know you know it. Fuck the rules and just let them list in the article. Shit, man.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.126.81.38 (talk • contribs)

Well that's tough for you because Wikipedia has rules and I'm enforcing them and those rules say that we need written proof from somewhere official, if not from a proper publication that isn't some fanblog or forum, that says that "MEGAFORCE = GOSEIGER". People who have no emotional attachment to the show agree with me that it's a violation of these rules and guidelines because there's no statement out there that we can use. Just comparing two sets of images isn't enough for Wikipedia. And if you say there are people in the production staff who've said "Yeah, we're using Goseiger" then provide that proof or shut up and stop being so rectal ragnarokked over a Wikipedia page.—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Is listing each Ranger series as an adaptation actually needed on the page though?Gaeaman787 (talk) 16:15, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

This shit is going to get covered once the first episode airs and the final credits roll so it can be added then. I don't know why it's so important to say so when all that's happened is a conference at a fan convention and an appearance in the Macy's Thanksgiving parade.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Likely because there are tons and tons of rumors that are coming out about the show that shouldn't be on Wikipedia since they aren't. Such as the possible Gokai Silver, Ranger Keys, past Ranger Cards, etc. Though I doubt a big news service like the AP is going to cover PR, and Fury Diamond is basically the fandom's mole man for PR stuff, so I guess they're dissapointed that when he announces stuff to the fans (arguably as a reliable source, not a direct one as he isn't Haim Saban), that Wikipedia rules being so tightly enforced for PR don't allow people to just put in an easy citation such as JEF.Gaeaman787 (talk) 21:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

The fandom doesn't understand that trusted internal sources are not equivalent to publications that have editorial oversight. I recall times that JEF has posted whatever stupid rumor that came up and it was proved to be entirely wrong in the end. Also the fandom complains to no end because of the spellings we use on Wikipedia. I saw a complaint about Vaglass. What the hell are the fansubs using that we aren't?—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Moreso people are complaining the lack of acknoledgement of Super Sentai in relation to the PR footage. But they don't get that the article is kinda written with the audience in mind-ish, that kids don't know what Sentai is and won't really be able to watch it.Gaeaman787 (talk) 17:32, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

But there is no footage. This show's a month or so away from being broadcast.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:34, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

As in visual references from trailers like the one at MorphiconGaeaman787 (talk) 20:35, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

And yet no one from the mainstream media reported on those (and they wouldn't know what Goseiger is anyway).—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:03, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Thing is, no one from the mainstream media really cares about Power Rangers in general, hence why the fandom relies on the single inside source, and likely why people keep getting annoyed that they can't cite Fury Diamond as a source on wikipedia. Its moreso that wikipedia's rules of requiring mainstream sources makes citing info for PR quite difficultGaeaman787 (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Well that's not my problem. Random people in the fandom don't have the editorial control of mainstream sources so they're not to be trusted on Wikipedia, regardless if they have a flawless track record on RangerBoard or HJU or whereever else these things are posted. Also, is Fury Diamond the one who also made all those cookie cutter websites for the cast members claiming them as official that I absolutely abhorred as well?—Ryulong (琉竜) 02:31, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes I think FD is the one to make the "Such and Such Cast" websites. They're considered official as he has connections with the Saban staff I believe. He as well as Chris Funaro have known at least Tzachor and Bukhamir for quite awhile. I also remember there was some verbal mixup as to the possible use of the Gokaiger footage for the second season on Megaforce, but that the directors essentially stated that they didn't want to use the Gokaiger footage since pirates aren't really heroic in theme. I essentially think the fandom just wants there to be an exception regarding PR sources and allow them to cite these blogs (though said poster cites the direct source of their info, the blog merely makes it accessible to people.) even though most of the things that insiders post are rumors and not verifiable facts. There's so little news out of Saban and that there are no American magazines or publications for them to cite. Gaeaman787 (talk) 03:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I mean when he made "official" websites for people like Rhoda Montemayor or whoever played Xander in Mystic Force that were clearly made for like Geocities and they were posted to every single cast member's page here (also whoever runs Super Sentai.com or whatever it is needs to stop cribbing the shit here).—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Ohh I didn't know those existed, or if he designed thoseGaeaman787 (talk) 00:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

SOmeone in the fandom did. I think the name at the time was "Mystic Points" or whatever.—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:10, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

http://www.sabanbrands.com/pdfs/Saban_Power_Rangers_Megaforce.pdf Saban Press Release specifically mentions Gosei by name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.224.238 (talk) 19:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Requested moves

• Power Rangers Megaforce → Power Rangers: Megaforce
• Power Rangers Samurai → Power Rangers: Samurai
• Power Rangers RPM → Power Rangers: RPM
• Power Rangers Jungle Fury → Power Rangers: Jungle Fury
• Power Rangers Operation Overdrive → Power Rangers: Operation Overdrive
• Power Rangers Mystic Force → Power Rangers: Mystic Force
• Power Rangers S.P.D. → Power Rangers: S.P.D.
• Power Rangers Dino Thunder → Power Rangers: Dino Thunder
• Power Rangers Ninja Storm → Power Rangers: Ninja Storm
• Power Rangers Wild Force → Power Rangers: Wild Force
• Power Rangers Time Force → Power Rangers: Time Force
• Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue → Power Rangers: Lightspeed Rescue
• Power Rangers Lost Galaxy → Power Rangers: Lost Galaxy
• Power Rangers Turbo → Power Rangers: Turbo
• Power Rangers Zeo → Power Rangers: Zeo
• Power Rangers Zeo: Battle Racers → Power Rangers: Zeo - Battle Racers
• Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue (video game) → Power Rangers: Lightspeed Rescue (video game)
• Power Rangers Time Force (video game) → Power Rangers: Time Force (video game)
• Power Rangers Wild Force (video game) → Power Rangers: Wild Force (video game)
• Power Rangers Ninja Storm (video game) → Power Rangers: Ninja Storm (video game)
• Power Rangers Dino Thunder (video game) → Power Rangers: Dino Thunder (video game)
• Power Rangers S.P.D. (video game) → Power Rangers: S.P.D. (video game)
• List of Power Rangers Zeo episodes → List of Power Rangers: Zeo episodes
• List of Power Rangers Turbo episodes → List of Power Rangers: Turbo episodes
• List of Power Rangers Lost Galaxy episodes → List of Power Rangers: Lost Galaxy episodes
• List of Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue episodes → List of Power Rangers: Lightspeed Rescue episodes
• List of Power Rangers Time Force episodes → List of Power Rangers: Time Force episodes
• List of Power Rangers Wild Force episodes → List of Power Rangers: Wild Force episodes
• List of Power Rangers Ninja Storm episodes → List of Power Rangers: Ninja Storm episodes
• List of Power Rangers Dino Thunder episodes → List of Power Rangers: Dino Thunder episodes
• List of Power Rangers S.P.D. episodes → List of Power Rangers: S.P.D. episodes
• List of Power Rangers Mystic Force episodes → List of Power Rangers: Mystic Force episodes
• List of Power Rangers Operation Overdrive episodes → List of Power Rangers: Operation Overdrive episodes
• List of Power Rangers Jungle Fury episodes → List of Power Rangers: Jungle Fury episodes
• List of Power Rangers RPM episodes → List of Power Rangers: RPM episodes
• List of Power Rangers Samurai episodes → List of Power Rangers: Samurai episodes
• List of Power Rangers Super Samurai episodes → List of Power Rangers: Super Samurai episodes
• List of Power Rangers Megaforce episodes → List of Power Rangers: Megaforce episodes
• List of Power Rangers Super Megaforce episodes → List of Power Rangers: Super Megaforce episodes
• List of Power Rangers Lost Galaxy characters → List of Power Rangers: Lost Galaxy characters
• List of Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue characters → List of Power Rangers: Lightspeed Rescue characters
• List of Power Rangers Time Force characters → List of Power Rangers: Time Force characters
• List of Power Rangers Wild Force characters → List of Power Rangers: Wild Force characters
• List of Power Rangers Ninja Storm characters → List of Power Rangers: Ninja Storm characters
• List of Power Rangers Dino Thunder characters → List of Power Rangers: Dino Thunder characters
• List of Power Rangers S.P.D. characters → List of Power Rangers: S.P.D. characters
• List of Power Rangers Mystic Force characters → List of Power Rangers: Mystic Force characters
• List of Power Rangers Operation Overdrive characters → List of Power Rangers: Operation Overdrive characters
• List of Power Rangers Jungle Fury characters → List of Power Rangers Jungle Fury characters
• List of Power Rangers RPM characters → List of Power Rangers: RPM characters
• List of Power Rangers Samurai characters → List of Power Rangers: Samurai characters
• List of Power Rangers Megaforce characters → List of Power Rangers: Megaforce characters
• Villains in Power Rangers Turbo → Villains in Power Rangers: Turbo

– A while back, there was a huge discussion (initiated by off-site parties who are to this day still using me as a scapegoat) that forced Wikipedia to adopt the version of these titles that lack a colon to separate "Power Rangers" from whatever the season's subtitle was. With the switch to Saban, it seems that the official titles are using the colon. The colon also, in common sense, should be used in these titles to delineate title from subtitle. There is really no reason for Wikipedia to use the form that only proliferates due to the fans not desiring a single punctuation mark in the title, and their blind hatred of me. —Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:10, 13 July 2014 (UTC)