Talk:Matrilineality

Some discussion

On current opinions among historians: I am defining a "historian" (perhaps "mainstream historian" was considered to be offensive) as one who follows historical procedures standard in academia (as opposed to a scholar who bases his statements on revelation).

Shaye Cohen (a) claims nothing about the Conservative movement, (b) is not making any claims that are not generally accepted by his colleagues at this stage. Rather, the relevant fact here is that he has expressed these views within the pages of "Conservative Judaism", the main review of the eponymous movement, and that these views seem to have been accepted by at least some Conservative Rabbis; see http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_c/bl_matri_descent.htm In general, the Conservative movement seems to follow what is seen as history by academia, though there was some confusion in the period of conflict immediately following the 1982 Reform decision. Note that the acceptance by (part of?) the Conservative movement of (a certain version of?) history does not imply that the Conservative movement will change its laws, or sees itself as being obligated to change them.

Who is Shaye Cohen?

I don't think the Conservative Movement is basing its acceptance of patrilineal descent solely on the views of unnamed historians.

I have rephrased some sections and included the actual Mishaic reference. The Talmud quote will follow when I've got access to it. If necessary I will supplement this with references to the Mishneh Torah and Shulkhan Arukh, but I think this will do.

You're encouraged to get a username! JFW | T@lk 18:08, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(a) Shaye Cohen is a historian and a professor at Harvard. this is not true (b) Your edit is incorrect: no "fraction" of the Conservative movement accepts patrilineal descent. Rather, the Conservative movement large and by accepts the current consensus among academic historians, namely, that patrilineal descent was once the norm. (c) The way things are currently written, it is implied that the Orthodox view is the "objective" or normative one, and that some people simply disagree. This is similar to having creationism be stated as the current scientific consensus under "evolution", and having a couple of sentence on Darwin and other dissidents at the end. (d) I'll get a username, and conduct some further edits, when I have the time, but, frankly, I am getting a bit tired.

You can't just make claims, you need to provide sources for them as well. For example, how do you know that "the Conservative movement large and by accepts the current consensus among academic historians, namely, that patrilineal descent was once the norm."? Is this referenced somewhere? Was a poll taken? The opinion of one Rabbi is not necessarily the same as that of the movement as a whole. Also, putting the traditional view first does not imply that it is correct, and the article has ample differing views presented fairly, which is NPOV. Jayjg 19:38, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Furthermore, the Orthodox view has been normative for literally thousands of years until someone decided that it "wasn't correct". The way you make it sound, the historians are correct and the Orthodox are fossils.

If you can provide a reference, then Prof Cohen is most welcome to be cited. JFW | T@lk 21:12, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(1) Jayjg: I will look into the matter of Conservative Rabbis' views of history. However, I should make clear that the Conservative movement does not have a view on how to ascertain the past different from that of academic historians. This is, in fact, one of the definitional characteristics of Conservative Judaism. If something is generally accepted by the historical community outside Conservative Judaism, it becomes accepted by Conservative Judaism. Professor Cohen's opinions were published, not only in his book "The Origins of Jewishness" and various scholarly journals, but also in Conservative Judaism, the flagship publication of, well, Conservative Judaism. There was not, as far as I know, a storm of protest, or even dissenting opinions; I will take a second look. Also, while Cohen's book seems to be generally seen as one of the most detailed and rigourous works on boundaries in Judaism in late antiquity, I will see if I can find other treatments of the matter. Notice, however, that what is new in Cohen's treatment is not his view of matrilineality as an innovation (this is standard by now) but his study of its source in the treatment of mixtures in Rabbinic thought (as opposed to the influence of Roman law)

(2) Jfdwolff: Nobody is disputing the authority of the Orthodox to decide what Orthodoxy is. Moreover, I understand perfectly well that it is a central tenet of Orthodoxy that what I and most other people call "Orthodoxy" is in fact simply normative Judaism. What is at stake is history. Historical research into religious texts is a matter of the last two hundred years, for the most part. The fact that many people before and now had a view of the world different from that of historians is a very interesting fact about people - just like the beliefs of most Westerners, say, 300 years ago about the natural world is an interesting fact about these individuals and society, not a fact about the natural world.

Sorry about the links

I didn't notice you put them at the bottom. Jayjg 21:27, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Josephus et al

Please bring the specific statements from Josephus etc. which indicate patrilineality, or at least a source which claims they do. Also, Wikipedia:NPOV doesn't involve drawing conclusions, so I'm going to remove the POV conclusion you've drawn in the article. You can quote someone coming to that conclusion, but you can't just state it yourself. The reader will come to whatever conclusion they think reasonable, based on the evidence. Jayjg 22:52, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The statements by Josephus et al. are quoted and referenced in Shaye Cohen's book, Chapters 8 and 10. While I have not reintroduced what you call a POV conclusion, I would like to state that it is a conclusion that seems to have been accepted as fact; every "fact" in history is a conclusion from evidence. I may have committed the mistake of stating a fact as if it were a personal opinion. If so, I apologize. However, if every conclusion is POV, then only axioms are NPOV. Hasdrubal 23:05, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The way Wikipedia:NPOV works is that all sides are presented from their own POV. Thus you can quote someone (assuming it's a significant opinion) stating that "matrilineality was invented by the Rabbis", but the article itself can't take the position. Jayjg 23:07, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thus, would we have only quotations in an article on evolution, say? And what is "a significant opinion" - one held by many people, one held by people in a position of authority outside academia, or one held by, well, people in a position of authority within academia? BTW, thanks for the message. Hasdrubal

No, you can have plenty of information, but you need to have sources which back it up. As for significant? That's hotly debated, of course. :-) Regarding Philo and Josephus, what the article needs is some references to the specific statements in both which appear to back up patriliniality. Quoting them would be even better. Jayjg 23:19, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just went over the relevant chapters in Cohen's book today, but I didn't write

down the bibliographic information; I'll do that soon. (Yes, Cohen does have

specific quotations.) As for "backing up" - the matter did not seem to be

under discussion at the time and place, so "stating" or "assuming" would be a

better verb; in any case, Philo does call children of one Jewish and one non-Jewish

parent "nothoi" (= bastards), so Philo certainly isn't anybody's support group

(you may have thought I was stating the contrary).

BTW - here's another Conservative rabbi on the matter, though he may be said to be

on the left wing of the movement, or at least, I suppose, its west coast -

http://www.vbs.org/rabbi/hshulw/lucy_bot.htm

Notice that this supports both (a) my statement as to how patrilineality is

not considered acceptable by the central Conservative organizations, (b) my

statement as to how views that are current among historians are current among ::::Conservative rabbis. Note also that "mater certa, pater incerta", the influence

of the mother on the child and the great frequency of rape by Roman soldiers

are considered, and rejected, as probable causes by Cohen.

For what it's worth - I found more on possible disagreements as to policy within

the Conservative movement in an article by the same rabbi:

http://www.jewishjournal.com/old/shulweis.3.10.0.htm Hasdrubal 00:13, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Josephus and Philo references

I've been looking in the works mentioned, and they seem to be numbered differently that the citations given. Can anyone shed any light on this? Jayjg 04:00, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi -

I have just checked the quotations online - I had no trouble finding them in the editions that are available on the www. Are you using the same editions as specified in the bibliography of Cohen's book (or the same that I just used to give a double-check)? Generally, line numbers are the same across editions of classical works, so I am surprised.

As I think I've made clear in the latest revision, what we have (in the case of Josephus) is assumptions and modes of thought (cf. a certain Targum - which one escapes me - where abundant commentary is introduced to bring Biblical practices on conversion (none, essentially) in accord with such practices as were in use at the time of Targum (and later)). Philo does spell things out. Hasdrubal 22:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Which online site did you use? Jayjg 22:38, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jewish Matrilineality

This section begins "Orthodox Judaism states that, to be a Jew, one must be either a proselyte or the child of a Jewish mother. This ruling is based on the fact that intercourse between Jews and non-Jews is forbidden, and any offspring resulting from such an act is considered to have no paternity."

This is a logical contradiction. It explains why a child of a Jew and a non-Jew would not be regarded as Jewish, but it does nothing at all to explain why a Jewish woman's child is Jewish and a Jewish man's is not. If "intercourse between Jews and non-Jews is forbidden" then any child of such a union is not Jewish. The common sense issue is to doubt the chastity of women (Jewish or not) rather than the lawfulness of miscegenation.

I'm not entering into debate here as to who is legitimately a Jew here, but this is an encylopedia for all to understand, and that opening paragraph fails. -- Cecropia 22:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The offspring from such an act has (according to halakha) no *paternity*. It does have a mother, however. Paternity is not parentage. 132.204.53.58 22:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm rolling back your change because it doesn't resolve the contradiction and only confuses the reader. No one wants to deal with the plain fact that matrilineality is (as stated in the article) not biblical and was added later under doubtful justification to avoid saying the obvious: men don't trust women. There was a book in (IIRC) the 19th century called "What Every Woman Knows." The question begged by the title is: "Who is the real father of her children?" -- Cecropia 01:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

This all makes sense - the priest(paterlinear) may not be Jewish, The tribes(paterlinear) may not be Jewish,David(paterlinear) may not be Jewish but the children of the women(materlinear) are Jewish. So after 100 generations you can be a Jew if you have 2^100th of your 100th grandmother, who goes to see a priest who isn't Jewish at all from a tribe that never was Jewish i a country that gives Jews special treatment - it's getting clearer by the minute! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 (talk • contribs) 12:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Vote against merger!

I believe that this topic is unique enough to maintain as a separate article. Linking to the other related articles is sufficient.

--68.221.51.114 19:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

MtDNA

All the waffle about MtDNA and energy conversion sounds a bit dodge- references needed!

Animal societies

I would like to see discussion of matrilineality in animal societies such as orcas and elephants. Kent Wang 15:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

If you'd like to see that, know something about it, and (preferably) have references about it, then go ahead and add it yourself. Petronivs 14:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"knights of Queen Guinevere"

Can anybody prove this? Parrish Smith (talk) 19:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Split

Most of the Jewish material should be split off into a separate article. If every important appearance of matrilineality were dealt with at this length, the article would be enormous.69.183.174.173 (talk) 22:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

70.231.148.13 (talk) 22:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Where to place a new section, Matrilineal surnames

Place it in Family name? or in Surname? or in Matrilineality?

This new section is dependent upon a DNA presentation. DNA is already presented in Matrilineality, but would need to be added in Family name or in Surname. So I placed the new section in the Matrilineality article.

Also, I think adding Matrilineal surnames within Family name would muddy the latter's clear-flowing waters. Keeping Family name a purely patrilineal article would be less confusing for readers. For7thGen (talk) 20:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

"Trace fatness and slimness along matrilines"

In this article's Genetic genealogy section, someone suggested stout Queen Victoria as an example of the above title, and I tried to find a source reference for this paragraph, to help wikify this article. However, her mother and her mother's mother both appear to be of normal build in their portraits findable via the article Queen Victoria. Someone, you should have checked this much at least, and then you should have chosen a better example or else an example that could not be so easily checked, or no example. I would like to have a source reference, and/or to have the outcome of the "attempts" to trace... --just to satisfy my curiosity. For7thGen (talk) 01:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Matrilineal surnames

Hi Damuna, your tag says to improve (this section of) the article, which I already have done, and also to discuss Western bias, which follows:

First of all, thank you for your work on behalf of everyone at WP. My words in the article, which you wrote showed a bias in favor of Western cultures, were:

"Our culture's lack of mothers-line surnames to hand down makes our traditional genealogy more difficult in the mothers-line case than in the normal (fathers-line) case."

I thought my words above implied "Our (patrilineal) culture", which is very global (not just Western) as one sees in the Family name article. I have made the changes you indicated, to:

"The lack of mothers-line surnames to hand down, see the whole Family name article, makes traditional genealogy more difficult in the mothers-line case than in the normal (fathers-line) case."

I hope you will agree with me that these changes do improve the article, so thanks again. For7thGen (talk) 23:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

apparently someone on wikipedia has an agenda to prove how great it would be if all kids would get the family-name from both mum and dad. and wrote a large section to that extent. at least acknowledge the reason no sane society has such a system: because it's f*cking impossible. the first generation of children would have 2 surnames, the second generation would have 4 names, the third 8, then 16, 32, 64 etc. in less then 2 centuries any person would have more then 100 surnames. the whole idea is political correct BS from crazy feminists who should find real problems to worry about (little girls getting raped and then killed as punishment for their 'slutty behavior' would be a start), instead of going out of their way to prove that yes, indeed, women are crappy at math. liberated women more-so apparently. geez i wonder why no woman under 50 calls herself a feminist anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.127.244.82 (talk) 21:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

Someone should rewrite the introduction, as it is not of very good quality. I clarified a bit about mitochondrial inheritance but it still seems rather unwieldy. Perhaps a skilled and thoughtful rewrite of the intro could be a good start towards improving the overall quality of the article. Tomyhoi (talk) 18:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Tomyhoi, I can agree with your adding more about mitochondrial inheritance, and I thank you for helping the readers. See topic "Genome" below. I'm not sure what you mean by the word "unwieldy", and unsure whether you are applying it to all or to which part(s) of the introduction. I would be glad if I or we can improve what I have already contributed to the introduction, to help the readers of course. For7thGen (talk) 20:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Genome

Tomyhoi, I hope you'll agree that your clarification above is just as clear without use of the word genomic (to most readers). And I'm glad we are working together on this article. For7thGen (talk) 20:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Reverting User:118.81.67.154 's contibution of 16Sep09

See my own Talk page User talk:For7thGen#Should I delete, in Matrilineality article?, for discussion of this Revert, today. (I'd put the somewhat-long text here too, except that I've got too many entries just above this one...) For7thGen (talk) 21:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Contributions by Agye on 17Mar07

As part of my work to provide source references to bring this article up to standard, I am deleting a sentence from the introduction,

"Even ancient physicians had an inkling about such matrilineal heredity: Galen taught that a child's physical frame would (mostly) be provided by maternal heredity." Its original version was "Already ancient physicians had a whiff about such matrilineal heredity: Galen taught that a child's physical frame will (mostly) be provided by maternal heredity."

I'm also deleting 2 paragraphs from the section "Genetic genealogy", whose original versions were:

"Attempts have been made to trace fatness and slimness along matrilines in genealogies of persons whose physical details are well-archived, such as the royally stout queen Victoria I of the United Kingdom."

"There has been a hypothesis that better and worse suitability to give birth would be a (maternally) hereditary physical characteristic. If so, unsuitable matrilines are highly prone to extinction, whereas suitable matrilines would prosper."

All of these were done by a user, Agye, who gave no sources, and who has no User page or talk page and whose contributions ranged from 18Jun06 to only 17Mar07, the date of these quoted contributions.

Anyway, I've worked hard (for many hours each) to find any sources for these three quotes, and I'm a competent researcher by trade. I'm sure that the WP article "Galen" and its many sources would lead one to the desired statement IF Galen did make it -- which I myself do not think is a good bet. I think Galen would have observed the same thing that most people observe nowadays, that a child's frame is dependent on both parents, but much more complicated than being a simple average of the two.

In the 2nd quote, I like Agye's wording "the royally stout queen", which has been improved upon and thus lost -- and I've complained in a recent entry (above) about this paragraph's lack of any source and its poor choice of a well-archived example, since Victoria's daughter and grand-daughter were not stout, at least in photos available on the web.

The 3rd quote needs a source for "a hypothesis". And simply dropping any mention of a hypothesis leaves a paragraph that does not fit in this section nor article nor anyplace else in WP, in my opinion. I actually like the paragraph, as already rewritten by me. However, without a source for "a hypothesis" I have to drop the paragraph.

And without these 2 paragraphs, their preceding paragraph about mtDNA being inherited from the mother became a useless duplication where it was, thus hurting rather than helping the reader -- so I dropped it as well. For7thGen (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Clean up, to WP quality standards

To anonymous User 70.129.184.254, you have helped the readers of this article, by tagging it on 13Dec09 with the tag which is the title of this section. Your Edit summary is necessarily brief and general, and stated that "Paragraphs repeat themselves; some go off on tangents only to return to the original topic in the next paragraph. Also, many areas aren't laid out well at all."

Accordingly, I have removed the following paragraph (in square brackets) from the article's introduction:

[Mitochondria are cellular organelles involved in metabolism and energy production, and contain DNA (mtDNA) that is normally inherited exclusively from the mother. Thus, human offspring contain both chromosomal DNA, contained within the nucleus and inherited from both parents, and mitochondrial DNA, which is found outside the nucleus and inherited only from the mother. As mitochondria are considered "cellular power plants," one's metabolism and energy conversion are much influenced by these matrilineal genetic materials, and thereby by one's matrilineal descent.]

I carefully inspected the whole article for the faults that you mention in your Edit summary above, and found only this one paragraph that could even remotely be the cause of your Edit summary. In any case, this one paragraph simply does not fit in this article -- the information it gives is simply not needed in this article or is easily available via WP's internal links or is repeated in this article when needed. So I hope you feel, as I do, that cleaning up the introduction by removing this paragraph does help the readers. My apologies to User Tomyhoi, see a Sep09 section above.

User 70.etc., if you wanted to help the readers further, you'd need to add more-specific information on the Talk page to clarify and identify what you are talking about. For example, what do you mean by your point about "many areas aren't laid out well at all"? You would need to explicitly identify at least one such area in the article, such as the middle third of section Such-and-such, so that I or any other User can try to understand what you are getting at. Even then, we other Users might not be able to get your meaning, so it would be far better to also show your improved layout, or your own rewriting of each such point –– then other Users definitely would understand each point. I know this could seem like a lot of work, but the benefit to each reader IS multiplied by many readers, which does pay for much work by all of us Users.

I'm very glad that Users like yourself (and myself) exist who want to help the readers. For7thGen (talk) 21:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Matriname

The topic is my substitution earlier today of matriname for matrilineal surname (and of patriname for patrilineal surname). I think the WP readers will like the increased clarity and brevity and will not need source references for this change, but I believe that many WP editors do need my sources, and rightfully so. So here they are.

• In his 2001 book The Seven Daughters of Eve (currently the first Ref in this Matrilineality article) Bryan Sykes suggested adding matriname to the existing "surname" as he called it, or patriname in this article.

This word matriname is also used in place of matrilineal surname in the scientific literature such as in the journal article:

• Silverman, Eric Klein (1997), "Politics, Gender, and Time in Melanesia and Aboriginal Australia". Ethnology, Vol 36 no. 2, Spring 1997, pp.101-121. Possibly accessible and searchable at the stable URL www.jstor.org/stable/3774078 .

Similarly, patriname is sometimes used in place of patrilineal surname in scientific literature such as the book:

• Isbell, Billie Jean (1978, 1985). To Defend Ourselves: Ecology and Ritual in an Andean Village. Waveland Press. ISBN 0-8133-173-2, Ch. 3, p. 79. Its Ch. 3 is "The Social Classes of Chuschi", and the whole book is available online at the URL http://hdl.handle.net/1813/2135 . Note well, as of 9Oct2011, this URL has been changed, see my Isbell entry below, in this section.

and in the journal article:

• Jean-Klein, Iris (2001), "Nationalism and Resistance: The Two Faces of Everyday Activism in Palestine during the Intifada". Cultural Anthropology, Vol 16 no. 1, Feb 2001,pp. 83-126. Possibly accessible and searchable at the stable URL www.jstor.org/stable/656603 . For7thGen (talk) 06:04, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I should explicitly mention the alternative mothername, since others have suggested it: Mothername sounds more commonplace, but some people would misunderstand it and would think it was intended to be two separate words, mother name. So I am glad that Professor Sykes followed scientific usage and suggested matriname.For7thGen (talk) 00:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

• Isbell, Billie Jean (1978, 1985) but now listed as (2005). The above book's Ch. 3 (title given above) is still available online at the URL http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:gK7q2mCAxNcJ:ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/2135/29/04_Chapter_Three.pdf+%22patriname%22&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi6J52g5JlQOs95FMikNZC4NDf898Pcs4B2cbU4RzYsH7EHiNXN0Xqi_-vSr4UltM5BvFBmK75qeAzphdhSrqCwhwJ8cKL7XmA2p8GrPEJdH7o3C-lV5_lqWIvv8P6-veEM-7bW&sig=AHIEtbRK-XIvxS_PuD0D4WAqpaiujB0ndA, which is a docs.google.com thing, and their page # is 13 for the book's page 79, which uses the word patriname in context.

As an obviously needed backup, this Ch. 3 is also now archived (today) via WebCite at http://www.webcitation.org/62JsHxE0V ; if you do need to use it, you'll need to click on "plain HTML", but you'll then find patriname highlighted so it is easy to find, on the same book page 79. Is this source worth the work it has cost me? For7thGen (talk) 02:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Enate, enatic

It is difficult to believe the terms "enate" and "enatic" are completely avoided in this article. There also are no redirects or links for these terms. Is there a good reason for this? (I notice the article on Patrilineality is not afraid to use "agnate" or "agnatic", and in fact, devotes much specific text to them.) Some copyeditor should work these words into the lead and the body of the text so this subject doesn't sound dumbed-down, and add Redirects. (I am not an expert on this subject nor a native speaker or I would do it myself.) Regards, Charvex (talk) 09:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

If you feel strongly about it, you probably should do it yourself. Just do the best job you can, and if someone thinks it can be better worded, they'll clean it up. In the meantime, the information is here for people who are reading. Petronivs (talk) 19:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Since uterine ancestry is alive and well, I should at least give enatic an equal chance at life-on-Wikipedia. Done. I think Saforrest found that royal genealogy actually uses uterine rather than enatic or enate ancestry. I was feeling very lonely, being almost the only contributor to this article and its talk page, so I feel much better now. For7thGen (talk) 01:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Removed two sentences from "India" section.

This entry is mostly to save myself work in the future. Namely, I checked history and found that Hijjins had added more than half of the section on 29Feb08, and had to do it again on 29Mar08. He contributed from 22Feb08 to 4Jun08, mostly about India.

He or she apparently was a Nair, per their contributions to the Nair talk page, those that I looked at – and her contributions seemed good in the India section. But the section is better without the two sentences, with the section's last sentence rewritten to replace the removed sentences, without needing any verification. Hijjins had the tag (about removal of text if not verified by citations) right in front of him, and certainly should have verified these two sentences, so verifying them was/is probably impossible. I have now finished verifying the India section. For7thGen (talk) 01:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Satisfying the WP policy Verifiability

The context for this entry: I wrote this (22Feb2010, see below) entry just hours after writing the following Edit summary: "Add this new subsection (Consequences). See the Talk page, about satisfying the WP policy Verifiability." For7thGen (talk) 18:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Question #1. Does Wikipedia (WP) permit quotations from a commercial-website article?

Question #2. How to do it? My tentative answers are hopefully Yes, see #1 below; and for #2, my way of doing it is what I've just done. If there are better answers, please do educate me either here or on my talk page.

I should mention that the quoted article Matriname is so clearly-written that WP readers really should be able to access it, as they now can via the final paragraph below. Its quotations are much better expressed (say 100x better) than anything I could write in their place. In my opinion, it is essential that WP readers be able to see these quotations (assuming Question #1 is positive).

Question #1: I found no commercial-website problems with four of the five WP pillars, the "content policies", nor with their guidelines. For the fifth, WP:V =Verifiability, its guideline WP:EL =External Links forbids linking to a commercial website, essentially, which is handled below in the Question #2 or final paragraph.

Also, WP:V itself has a short section "Self-published sources (online and paper)" which discourages using these sources to provide "expert" support for the information in your WP article. But the self-published quotations I used are certainly not sources to support any other information in this WP article. In addition, these two quotes themselves are self-evidently reliable and need no other support – just read them yourself. Thus I find a Yes answer to Question #1.

Question #2: So how to cite this commercial-website source without linking to it, yet cite it "clearly and precisely" as required by WP:V? My way was to give the WP reader this footnote to the quotes (updated in the indented entry immediately below): "Fortunately, the source article Matriname, by Elisabeth McCumber, can be found on the web. A search for the two words together, matriname McCumber, yields a link to click on, to then receive the source article as a .pdf file. The author permitted these two quotations on 16Feb2010." For7thGen (talk) 07:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• This footnote has to be updated, today, to agree with the author's changes. This footnote to the quotes is now: To see the whole thoughtful and well-written article, Matriname: Two Trunks in the Family Tree by Elisabeth McCumber, simply search online for the term "Matriname: Two Trunks" – then click on its resulting item Copywriting Samples: Articles, and then scroll down the latter webpage as needed. The author permitted these two quotations on 16Feb2010. For7thGen (talk) 01:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

"Uterine ancestry"

I communicated with User:Saforrest about his/her use of the term "uterine ancestry" in the introduction of Matrilineality, as recorded on my own talkpage under the title "A problem with the term 'uterine ancestry'". My final entry was dated 2Feb2010, and the final result, quoted here for possible reference in the future, was:

"Hi Saforrest: It was (and is) a pleasure to receive and read your reply. From your reply I've learned more about uterine and agnatic pedigrees, and from your two sources. I've changed Matrilineality to reflect what I learned. Please feel free to redo it, you certainly have my blessing. I do feel that it is now better than it was, for the WP reader. You can see that I gave "uterine ancestry" its own short paragraph, relocated toward the bottom of the Intro." For7thGen (talk) 17:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Improving last paragraph of the Intro

First, here is the current version (in quotes) of the last paragraph of the introduction, for easy comparison after I finish:

"In some cultures, membership in their groups is inherited matrilineally; examples of this cultural practice include many ancient cultures and continues in the contemporary cultures of those ancient origins such as Huron, Cherokee, Iroquois Confederacy (Haudenosaunee), Hopi, Navajo, and Gitksan of North America. In the Old World cultures it is found in Ancient Egypt, the Minangkabau people of West Sumatra, (Indonesia); some Ezhavas, Nairs including Royal clans, and Kurichiyas of Kerala, India; Bunts, Billavas and Mogaveeras of Karnataka, Pillai caste in Nagercoil District of Tamil Nadu; the Khasi, Jaintia and Garo of Meghalaya, India; the Nakhi of China, the Basque people, the Akan, and the Tuaregs."

(I have already done a lot of work checking and improving upon source references concerning these cultures, and maybe I'm half done.) For7thGen (talk) 03:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

• Well, I finally finished! Here is the result:

"In some ancient cultures, membership in their groups was (and still is if in bold) inherited matrilineally. Example cultures include the Cherokee, Gitksan, Hopi, Iroquois, Lenape, and Navajo of North America; Ancient Egypt, the Minangkabau people of West Sumatra, Indonesia; the Nairs of Kerala and the Bunts of Karnataka both in south India; the Khasi, Jaintia and Garo of Meghalaya in northeast India; the Mosuo of China; the Basque people; the Akan; and the Tuaregs. Some of these examples are discussed in this article, see Contents below." For7thGen (talk) 01:28, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Source references for the section, Judaism.

I unfortunately cannot spend the time needed to become knowledgeable enough to even understand this Judaism section. I did finally discover that it is mostly excerpts from its "main article" Matrilineality in Judaism, and I have helped the reader by adding notes to that effect at the beginning and end of this section. Otherwise I have not touched this section including its source references.

The source references for this excerpted section are really in that "main article" – and without understanding this topic I can't judge the adequacy of that article's source references. I did notice that the "main article" has only one tag for "citation needed," and that tag is for content about England rather than about Judaism. Therefore I hope that the article and especially this section (without the content about England) have adequate source references. For7thGen (talk) 19:07, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Providing Akan source references

(I am not well-informed about the Akan peoples, but am a competent researcher if I could afford to spend the time required.) In my work providing source references for the Akan section of Matrilineality, I was hoping for some help from the article Akan people. Instead, I was surprised that there was an apparently-total disconnect between the two, with the Akan article containing very little information about Akan matrilineality. After much work, I finally stumbled across the online source of more than half of the Akan matrilineality information in the aforementioned Akan section (I've added quotation marks as appropriate), and I'm dropping the unsourced remainder of this section. I'm also adding content from an Encyclopaedia Britannica article of an appropriate vintage (1970) – written not too long after the main books were written on this subject. And I'm replacing the above-mentioned matrilineality part of the Akan article, as well, with my newly rewritten Akan section. I hope that both the section and the article are significantly improved; the source references definitely are improved, since there were none for the section and none for this part of the article, before I added mine. (This paragraph is being added to the Talk page of both articles linked to above.) For7thGen (talk) 01:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Akan culture still alive?

Is the Akan culture as described in the above two reference sources still alive for people in the cities (or the rural villages, either) of south Ghana, etc.? Since neither source actually states anything on this important point, I cannot provide a source reference for this point, and thus cannot bring it up in WP articles, according to WP guidelines. (This paragraph is being added to the Talk page of both WP articles Matrilineality and Akan people.) For7thGen (talk) 01:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Removing the "Refimprove" tag.

I'm removing the "Refimprove" tag of May 2007 so it will no longer disturb readers such as me. I've now finished the mammoth task of providing source references for all the material in this article or removing the material for which I failed to find adequate source references. (Except possibly the section on Judaism, thoroughly discussed in the above Talk-page entry "Source references for the section, Judaism".) This includes improving the source references of (portions of) WP articles which are linked to by this whole (Matrilineality) article. A lot of work. Several of the Talk-page entries above are related to this work.

And I'm still working on the second link in the China section (an external link to a JSTOR journal article) which currently yields the message from JSTOR people, "Document Not Found. We have recently redesigned the site and some of our information has moved." I can't get help from the user who put the link up because he or they were anonymous with no talk page! If I can't get the link up (by getting myself to a university with a subscription to JSTOR) within two (2) months, say, then I'll probably decide to just delete that whole paragraph – WP readers would have to live without that paragraph. For7thGen (talk) 00:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe a refimprove tag is still necessary. Most of the references are not correctly formatted. The following link provides a how-to guide for creating citations on Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Citing_sources#How_to_format_inline_citations.SweetNightmares (talk) 12:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your help – I think you and I both are willing to work to help WP readers, and I have now redone the source reference citations. Thanks again, from WP readers as well. ----------------Perhaps you can help further with the section Judaism – see above, including my 20May2010 entry. I would not be able to rewrite this section and its source refs even if I spent full-time for the next 20 years learning about it, so I think the problem should be given to the WikiProject Judaism. (But I don't know how to do that.) Can you suggest anything? For7thGen (talk) 23:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Source references about ancient Egypt.

I failed to find source references for the topic, matrilineal succession to the throne in Ancient Egypt, and so had to remove all mention of ancient Egypt from the Matrilineality article. (I'm now placing this identical section on the Talk pages of these two articles plus a third, the Pharaoh article below.)

Then I learned the above topic was in the article Pharaoh, a whole paragraph in the latter's section Pharaoh#Titles. When the link in the last sentence of this Titles paragraph is followed, which verifies said sentence, then in my opinion the whole paragraph becomes self-documented by its own integrity and factual details. But WP needs actual sources for important content, instead, which are unfortunately not there.

I'll be able to add this content (matrilineal succession to the throne in ancient Egypt) in both articles, Ancient Egypt and Matrilineality, if someone can find and insert such source references into the article Pharaoh (and notify me on my talk page).

Someone, please find and insert them.

We're all working together to help WP readers, For7thGen (talk) 00:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Information removed per WP:SPS and WP:PAYWALL

First off, Wikipedia is not a place to provide one-line amateur reviews of self-published works, or to advertise such works. This citation violates WP:SPS. Secondly, reference number five is not accessible through the directions provided. If a work is not accessible to the general public through use of the internet or a library, it violates WP:PAYWALL. Therefore I have removed the information that was linked to this source: Matriname: Two Trunks in the Family Tree by Elisabeth McCumber. The information it contributed was not very valuable, anyhow. SweetNightmares (talk) 12:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm very glad that WP policy and guidelines now have been improved to Not allow the use of self-published works, which rendered Elizabeth McCumber's essay impossible to use any longer. I would have been glad to remove my use thereof – so thank you for doing it. I'm sure you and I both want what is best for WP readers, which is the beauty of WP. For7thGen (talk) 00:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Double surname shared by all of the children

Until my "rewrite" of 30Mar11 the Matrilineal surname section was worded for two different surnames in the same family, i.e., the matriname for daughters and the patriname for sons, which is gender-symmetric to satisfy gender equality. But now my further use of Family name has revealed that within all of its cultures (all that I checked), the children in a nuclear family all share the same family name. Therefore single surnames are not a viable option as I had thought – birth surnames must be double surnames. (Double surnames which combine the mother's matriname and the father's patriname, and shared by all of the children, do satisfy CEDAW or gender equality.) Rewritten accordingly. For7thGen (talk) 02:26, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Delete Consequences subsection.

/* Consequences */ Remove this whole subsection, the only part of the Matrilineal Surname section which might conceivably be called advocacy. I do appreciate the anonymous user who just removed the whole section and another section for advocacy of matrinames, for his or her at least raising the topic of advocacy. I don't see how the readers can be helped by a Consequences subsection, without a few such people criticizing it as advocacy – so I'm just removing the subsection. For7thGen (talk) 09:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Minangkabau

An anonymous user just added a paragraph about the Minangkabau culture in the Matrilineal surname section, but Minangkabau people have clan names rather than surnames so I moved the paragraph into the "Various cultural patterns" section. I also added 2 new source references, which I will add to the main Minangkabau article along with appropriate text ASAP – within weeks or months. And then I'll modify or add to the above-mentioned paragraph too. But the paragraph at least is now clear that the Minangkabau people are organized into clans – rather than into Western-style families with surnames or family names as the above user apparently assumed. So the user thus added a subsection on the largest matrilineal society – it is really important to our global encyclopedia to cover it! Thankfully, For7thGen (talk) 02:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Intestate Succession Law, Ghana 1985

I have tried hard to keep at least some of 41.222.232.245's two recent additions to the Akan section on 12Aug2011, but cannot in good conscience keep any. I will however change the section's wording to reflect the fact (for which I've now found a source reference, Marlene de Witte's 2001 book) that the Akan matrilineal clans are still alive and well – hopefully within the next month or two.

• The above-mentioned anonymous user's larger addition concerned Ghana's 1985 Intestate Succession Law PNDC Law 111. I think this law (and its 1991 Amendment) should have its own WP article, or at least its own section of the Ghana article. This reform law (and its aftermath) could be a very complicated subject. In the 2001 book above, which I searched via Google Books, this 1985 law is discussed on pp. 173-178 plus 3 related source references given on pp. 206-08. And simply googling turns up lots more information on this law. I expect I'll never find time to write such a section or article, but if someone else does find time, I'll hope to then write a paragraph in Matrilineality's Akan section appropriately making use of their section or article.
• The user's smaller addition concerned marriage being forbidden between members of the same 'ntoro' group, which is wrong, I'm sorry to say. See the reputable webpage http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/EthnoAtlas/Hmar/Cult_dir/Culture.7880, which is an Akan Culture summary by Robert O. Lagace. Respectfully, For7thGen (talk) 22:31, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Split off new article, Matriname

I'm splitting off Matrilineality's section, Matrilineal surname, by cutting and pasting it into a new article Matriname. The latter name is simpler and more common (i.e., less scientific) than the orginal section's name, as appropriate for an article name.

As recommended by WP guidelines, I'm substituting a synopsis of the information needed, under the old section heading, in the article Matrilineality, and linking to the new article as the old section's Main article. I'm also tending to the categories of both articles, as well as tending to the WikiProjects listed at the top of the Talk page of each article. I tried to do just the Splitting off/Creating an article, clearly labelled in the two Edit summaries – ie, nothing extra during that one step, as recommended.

My reason for splitting it off: Since I wrote the 21Aug09 Talk page entry about which of 3 named articles to place a new section Matrilineal surname in (I placed the latter in Matrilineality), both this new section and the rest of the article have benefited from each other, I think. But the section has grown much bigger than many other sections within the article, even though the latter have grown too. Thus, the section has developed to where it should be an article itself. So I'm being bold and splitting it off.

I'll continue to work in both articles. For example, I still need to do some work on matrilineal clans, in the Matrilineality article. I'm placing this identical entry in both Talk pages, For7thGen (talk) 02:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Matrilineal identification within Judaism

An anonymous WP editor added Jews to the list of matrilineal societies in the Intro, and of course this is wrong, they are not a matrilineal society. Merely using a matrilineal criterion as part of identifying who is Jewish, and who is not, does not transform their whole society into a matrilineal society. So I've now improved the organization of this Matrilineality article by renaming the last section, now titled "Matrilineal identification within Judaism" –– it had been titled "Matrilineality in specific religious groups" with a subtitle "Judaism".

In fact, the "main article" Matrilineality in Judaism might better be titled "Matrilineal identification within Judaism" as well. But this is a matter for the WikiProject Judaism people to determine, I am much too ignorant about Judaism to say anything at all about it. Years ago I did write a request on the WikiProject Judaism page (or a similar page, I don't recall the exact name) to rewrite this last section of the Matrilineality article, which is very badly written, still. And it will be more years before I myself can afford the time to rewrite it if they don't....

So the inaccurate and misleading organization of the Matrilineality article has now been corrected, thanks to the helpful attempt by the anonymous editor. Trying to help the WP readers, For7thGen (talk) 15:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Seminoles

Why aren't the Seminoles included here? They are a matrilineal society. Shadowmane (talk) 04:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Greetings, Shadowmane. The reason the Seminoles are not yet included in this article is because no-one has done the work of adding them. I just checked the Seminole Tribe of Florida article and it does not mention matrilineality. So you would need to find some reliable sources (i.e., source references) and then write the addition to both articles, ideally. The many readers of Wikipedia, including me, would very much welcome this work being done! (Merely adding the name in the introductory section of this Matrilineality article would not suffice, without the writing and the sources in one or the other of the two articles, and/or ideally both.) I'm intentionally ignoring the other two Seminole societies or tribes in the US, for lack of time to check on them. Thanks, on behalf of all our readers. For7thGen (talk) 06:31, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've not actually done any of the research myself, but I know as a 1/8th Seminole myself that they recognize people through matrileneal bloodlines. Officially, I would not be recognized by the tribe, as my Great-Grandfather was a full blooded Seminole. However, I do have an Aunt who has been "re-adopted" by the tribe, and was at one time a tribal shaman. Shadowmane (talk) 16:34, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

That's a start, because with your experience you might find locating an anthropological study (for instance) easier. Your statement itself would not qualify, but a published secondary source probably would. I gather something like it is true for many tribes and I'd be happy to see them added when sourced. Thanks. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I think it is wonderful or great, Shadowmane, that you are 1/8th Seminole yourself and your Aunt is hopefully 1/4th, both from your Great-Grandfather. (By using View history for this article, you can see our improvement which I made just now and which you thereby have a share of. The result is at Matrilineality#Genetic genealogy.) Can you and your Aunt work together at finding any published (including online) sources, within the next years? Wikipedia is here to stay so there is no hurry. If necessary, get something published yourselves, at third-party locations which would be valid sources for WP (Wikipedia). Who knows, you just might help all Seminoles thereby, in your "infinite spare time". And I liked your good contribution too, Nick. We are all trying to help all of us WP readers, For7thGen (talk) 20:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

One caveat in addition to the usual bevy: If an author or close relative of an author of an external source is to cite it in Wikipedia, it's necessary to declare a conflict of interest. A good way would be to post on the article's talk page what you intend to cite and for what content and your relationship to the author, and give people a reasonable time, maybe a week, to comment before posting the new source into the article. But having a conflict of interest does not bar editing. It only requires more caution. Nick Levinson (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Listing of tribes not yet documented as matrilineal

I've searched the following list of articles about North American Indian tribes or societies for any documentation of any matrilineal aspects such as clan membership, and found none. For the documenting that is needed in any Wikipedia article, see the previous section. The listing follows:

• Seminole Tribe of Florida, see the previous section.
• Cree.
• Ojibwe people.
• Lakota people, see below.
• Dakota people.
• Cheyenne people, see below.
• Blackfoot Confederacy.

Lakota, see link above. The article plausibly mentions that matriarchal family units have been the traditional form of Lakota governance, but gives no source references for this. I note that the article perhaps should use the word matrilineal instead of matriarchal.

Cheyenne, see link above. From the article: "Studies into whether the Cheyenne developed a matrilineal clan system are inconclusive." No source references are given on this topic.

This listing is for my own future reference, as well as for other readers and editors. For7thGen (talk) 20:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

"Early human kinship" section --- NPOV issue perhaps?

The article is very informative and I'd like to thank whoever put in the work. However, I noticed that for the section on "Early human kinship", references 13, 14, and 16 are from "left-wing"/"Marxist"/"Communist"/"Feminist" sources almost entirely. I'm not implying the information ought to be removed, but it should be noted within the article that aside from references 15 and 17 (I couldn't find any information on those two, to be honest), it's Marxist activists such as Chris Knight (anthropologist) and Feminists such as Sarah Blaffer Hrdy (according to [1] she did work on a "feminist reinterpretation of evolutionary theory") that are promoting these studies. I couldn't find anything linking the Destro-Bisol et al study or the Opie and Power article to any noticeable ideology in particular. The links that are there for the Chris Knight articles are also from leftist sources (Communist Party of Great Britain website and the Radical Anthropology Group, which is also fairly biased [2]). Again, I'm not arguing these sources should be removed, but that perhaps a bit more balance is needed by informing the reader that certain left-wing activists are making good use of studies which do happen to fall in line with their ideology. Perhaps there are other studies out there that these same activists would neglect to talk about. Just reading the work of Knight leads me to think about how biased the information is, how he could have cherry-picked everything. If you read his work, he refers to those whose theories he disagrees with as "dogmatic" and then instantly praises the author of the study he agrees with as being a "major specialist". 173.34.18.17 (talk) 20:38, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The solution to bias in the sources being reflected in the article is to add content from other sources. In general, authors of secondary sources, including scholars and journalists, are allowed and largely expected to select what they consider important and to present their results accordingly. We achieve balance, insofar as it exists in the panoply of sources available and not just cited in Wikipedia, by adding sources that have more to add to the article. For instance, if two sources disagree with each other on a weighty point, we ordinarily report both. But because Wikipedia is perennially a work in progress, we usually don't hold up editing because more content can be found; we can add what we know on Tuesday and if more is found on Thursday we can add that on Thursday. Within Wikipedia's policies, the article is biased (has an overall POV) only if the article is biased by its presentation or omission of content from sources or without sources, not if the sources themselves or their authors are biased. It might be that male and female counterpart articles do not correspond like mirrors if the sources cited or existing even if not cited do not correspond, and that is often the case, because the researchers are different people and sometimes have different questions (replicators, for instance, may add questions to what they investigate); and there are major debates about the nature of objectivity as applicable to social sciences. Authors' qualifications can be stated (usually very briefly) but, if not from the source already cited with the author's name, should be sourced and not just to a Wikipedia article; if the information is from a Wikipedia article, that can be linked to. But mainly the focus is to add sourceable content. Nick Levinson (talk) 15:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

indigenous peoples

The following came mainly from a recent revision of the matriarchy article, but I don't feel qualified to edit this article based on this sourcing, so I'd rather offer it for anyone else to consider researching and editing. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC) (Corrected italics: 17:49, 24 November 2013 (UTC))

"There are also matrilinear, matrilocal, and avunculocal societies, especially among indigenous peoples of the Americas, Asia, and Africa,<ref>Other than avunculocality: [http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/goettnerabendroth.html Goettner-Abendroth, Heide, trans. Jutta Ried & Karen P. Smith, Modern Matriarchal Studies. Definitions, Scope and Topicality (Societies of Peace, ca. or ante 2005)], as accessed October 27, 2013.</ref> such as those of the Minangkabau, E De (Rhade), Mosuo, Berbers, and Tuareg, and, in Europe, e.g., traditionally among Sardinian people.<ref>[http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20544306 La Famiglia e La Donna in Sardegna Annotazioni di Studio, vol. 71, no. 3 (2005)], pp. 487–498 (article) (dissem.).</ref><ref>[http://www.contusu.it/personaggi-e-storia-mainmenu-31/229-sardegna-matriarcale.html Sardegna matriarcale] (in Italian).</ref>"

Ruwanpura and feminism

I've added relatively brief content to the article on the feminism of matrilineality in eastern Sri Lanka sourced to a book. Here's more of the context from the book:

According to Kanchana N. Ruwanpura, "Sri Lanka .... is highly regarded even among feminist economists for the relatively favourable position of its women, reflected [in part] in the ... matrilineal and bilateral inheritance patterns and property rights".<ref>Ruwanpura, Kanchana N., Matrilineal Communities, Patriarchal Realities: A Feminist Nirvana Uncovered (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, paper [1st printing? printing of 2006?] 2006 (ISBN-13 978-0-472-06977-4 & ISBN-10 0-472-06977-2)), p. 1 (author asst. prof., Hobart & William Smith Colleges & "soon" to be lecturer, School of Geography, Univ. of Southampton, England).</ref> However, Ruwanpura continued, "feminist economists need to be cautious in applauding Sri Lanka's gender-based HDI ["human development" index] achievements and/or matrilineal communities."<ref>Id., p. 3 (bracketed insertion per p. 1).</ref> Ruwanpura "contend[s] that matrilineal communities do not indicate the death of patriarchy, and that patriarchal structures and ideologies and matrilineal communities can be strange but ultimately compatible bedfellows. Thus feminist economists ought to be more cautious in upholding Sri Lanka as a feminist nirvana and/or paradise."<ref>Id., p. 10 (line break between "and/" & "or").</ref>

According to Ruwanpura, "Sri Lankan women are surely not constrained by classical patriarchy, and feminists have claimed that Sri Lankan women are relatively well positioned in the South Asian region .... Matrilineal practices in eastern Sri Lanka have distracted feminists from other practices of women's status and position."<ref>Id., p. 4.</ref> According to Ruwanpura, there are "patriarchal institutions and ideologies within the Sri Lankan context .... [and she] position[s] Sri Lankan women within gradations of patriarchy  ... [in light of] the main religious traditions, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam".<ref>Id., pp. 4–5 (page break between "and" & "ideologies").</ref>

According to Ruwanpura, "it is important to acknowledge the prevalence of patriarchal structures and ideologies even among matrilineal communities."<ref>Id., p. 6.</ref>

"The fieldwork [in Ruwanpura's study] was carried out during 1998–9, at which time eastern Sri Lanka was engaged in a protracted ethnic conflict."<ref>Id., p. 45.</ref>

According to Ruwanpura, feminists have criticized a view of women's lives in Sri Lanka, e.g., in accordance with "village practices and folklore ... young women raped (usually by a man) are married-off/required to cohabit with the rapists!"<ref>Id., p. 76 n. 7.</ref>

"Have matrilineal practices for Muslim and Tamil communities legitimated the status of female-heads and widows so as to establish entitlement relations and sharpen extended entitlements? The evidence is moot, since matrilineal practice does not mean the absence of patriarchal values and/or structures."<ref>Id., p. 182 (line break between "and/" & "or").</ref>

"Matrilineal inheritance patterns and community structures place female-heads in a favorable position, but this positioning was only relatively so.... [F]emale-heads within this particular context in eastern Sri Lanka ... have lives that remain shaped and influenced by patriarchal relations. Patriarchal restraints sit together with structures that have traditionally favoured women".<ref>Id., p. 186.</ref>

According to Ruwanpura, "some female heads possessed" "feminist consciousness".<ref>Id., p. 142.</ref>

According to Ruwanpura, "the economic welfare of female-heads depends upon networks that mediate the patriarchal-ideological nexus, although the distinctions and similarities of the ethnically-based experiences of female-heads provide a sound basis for a coherent feminist perspective."<ref>Id., pp. 145–146 (page break between "a" & "sound").</ref>

In a "shift from economic to non-economic forms of support .... feminists would no doubt wish to observe a significant shift in attitudes reflecting progressive and accommodating values towards female-heads, [but] this is not taking place on any scale in these communities."<ref>Id., p. 159.</ref>

According to Ruwanpura, "the discussion ... seems to indicate that, generally, repressive cultural practices are not a pervasive feature. But this does not negate the existence of patriarchal structures and patriarchal institutional laws that run counter to matrilineal inheritance, and are likely to work against the interests of women, and of female-heads in particular. Such divergences will not positively affect/inform the informational base of female-heads, since they only serve to perpetuate patriarchal interests from which female-heads have no legal recourse."<ref>Id., p. 182.</ref>

Nick Levinson (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2013 (UTC) (Moved misplaced nowiki tag: 21:02, 24 November 2013 (UTC))

Your source seems like a reputable book since it was published by the University of Michigan Press. So I'd like to see you (Nick Levinson) add this matrilineality stuff in a subsection of the Sri Lanka article as well as in this article. But all of your quotes above simply ignore ethnicity, which I find extremely suspicious. Are all of the ethnic groups in the whole eastern half of Sri Lanka matrilineal? This seems very unlikely, since none of it shows up in other WP articles, and since the Sri Lanka article seems to have the main ethnicities scattered over the whole island. [I failed to find one that was restricted to the eastern half –– in which case the source book would frequently name that ethnicity.] The possibility exists that Ruwanpura is wrong somehow, yet somehow got her book published by this Press. Therefore other sources need to be found, and I hope you can find them. Until then, to help our readers, I'll remove the Eastern Sri Lanka mention from this article's list of example societies, after waiting a month for you to check your watchlist and reply here. Trying to help our readers, For6thGen (talk) 06:52, 19 January 2015 (UTC)