Talk:Bill Cosby

Discussion: Should the lead sentence mention the sexual assault accusations?

Help us reach a consensus on this by sharing what you think. There is currently a brief description of the sexual assault accusations in the last paragraph of the lede, an extensive discussion in a section titled Sexual Assault Allegations, and finally a very thorough description of all the available information in a separate article Bill Cosby sexual assault allegations. The disagreement is whether the first sentence of the Bill Cosby article should or should not mention the sexual assault accusations (or even describe Cosby as an "alleged serial rapist"). I will post my views in a separate post and I hope all editors of this article and others passing by will help us reach a consensus. Thanks. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 02:52, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

(I am restoring my original comment where it belongs. The following comment was improperly deleted by Hamsterlopithecus. I had deliberately placed it here, using the following edit summary: "This should be closed now after adding "Accused of sexually assaulting numerous women" in very first line." This was just one of many improper things which Hamsterlopithecus did on this page and elsewhere to hijack the discussion and mislead editors whom he forum shopped to come here. Wwdamron (talk) 17:01, November 10, 2015 (UTC))

User:BullRangifer #4 in my opinion, I will let you User:BullRangifer decide since you have the most clout (I did temporarily revert it back to #3, but quickly undid it).

As for User:Hamsterlopithecus, I am almost starting to believe you are a Cosby sympathizer and letting your emotions dictate or that you feel sorry for Cosby. This is not an opinion, these are facts and cannot be dictated my emotions.

FACT - Cosby has been accused by many people of Serial Rape, Sexual Assault and other Sex crimes, with new things surfacing on just about a daily basis, with many witness's to back these women's stories up.

FACT - This is probably the biggest scandal in modern USA history and will be talked about for centuries to come.

CONCLUSION - It would be Vandalism (in my and the majority of peoples opinions) to revert it back if it is changed to one of User:BullRangifer conclusions.

User:BullRangifer please go ahead and change it, number 4 in my opinion, also in my opinion citations are probably not necessary under any of your scenarios except a possible embedded link to Cosby's Sexual assault allegation page in addition to the tex in the very First sentence, but any of the other would be okay for now as well.

Wwdamron (talk) 03:07, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Just FYI, the lead sentence that is subject to changing currently reads: William Henry Bill Cosby, Jr. (born July 12, 1937) is an American stand-up comedian, actor, author, and activist. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 03:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I am strongly against describing Cosby as an alleged rapist in the first sentence or mentioning the accusations there. The accusations are well mentioned in the last paragraph of the lede, where they should be chronologically. I understand that this is a very emotional subject and the accusations are pretty horrible, but we have to keep our objective tone and not suffer from WP:Recentism. We have to maintain a historical perspective. For this reason, I say we wait on labeling Cosby a rapist as if it described him like the word comedian does. Also, this is the biography of a living person and we should be VERY careful with what we say about people. Other sensationalist news organizations can say what they want but Wikipedia tries to be a standard for reliability. We should wait until the smoke clears, until the legal system determines what to call Cosby. Until then, we should continue stating the facts in those other sections that describe the situation, but, if anything, lets err on the side of caution on this. Finally, I want to bring the example of the Michael Jackson article. Notice that there is a thorough description of the sexual assault incidents but there is no mention of him a child molester along with singer and dancer. Now that the scandal has passed, and we are looking at it from a historical perspective, it would seem harsh to include those accusations in the lead sentence of that article. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 03:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

First off, you again do not address the version that you actually reverted. You instead discuss the rapist version that I do not support. I also don't really support a new section on this because the old section is the exact same subject. Also, citing the actual recentism test, "In ten years will this addition still appear relevant? If I am devoting more time to it than other topics in the article, will it appear more relevant than what is already here?" I believe the answer is clearly yes. His sexual assault charges have impacted his career as I have stated above, losing all airtime of cosby show, honorary degrees, cases that are not going away, etc. --JumpLike23 (talk) 03:25, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Hamsterlopithecus, JumpLike23 is right. You are just repeating yourself; fighting against a straw man of your own creation (we aren't discussing the word "rapist"); and your creation of this section is disruptive. Just remove the heading and we can continue, otherwise this whole section should be hatted as disruption. It's your choice. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 03:54, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Hamsterlopithecus, don't you EVER do this again. Never change other editors' edits in a way that changes the meaning, EVER. I have restored the heading. Your attempt to hijack this discussion is not appreciated. You should just join it. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 03:32, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

User:BullRangifer, I had already explained to you that we were both editing the same section at the same time when that happened. You know it wasn't in bad faith, don't act so outraged. Now please, don't derail this discussion. If you have an actual reason for being so passionately in favor of labeling Cosby a rapist in the first sentence, please explain it here so other editors can understand all sides of this argument and can make up their minds. And also, once you've stated your opinion, please let other editors join in. We are not fighting here, just trying to find what's best for Wikipedia. The more people involved, the better. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 03:40, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I made that edit 12 minutes before yours, and intervening edits as well. You still chose to remove that subheading. That was not an accident or edit conflict. I have already explained myself above, several times. Everyone but you understands, so I'm not going to repeat myself for your sake. Go back and read it again. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 03:51, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

This was discussed extensively already and the consensus was to include a sentence at the end of the lead. Please refer to the talk page archives. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:01, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

The specific issue of whether to include mention in the intro sentence(s) was not discussed there, right? User:Hamsterlopithecus, please respond. I understand it is hard to justify, but you reverted my edit, and I feel were are thus entitled to such. Otherwise, I will assume you just say Recentism and BLP generally, fair enough? but that just simply is not compelling or based in policy. --JumpLike23 (talk) 04:14, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Cwobeel, I agree with User:jumplike23 that that discussion seems to have been about adding the paragraph on the lede that is currently in the article and not about adding a mention in the first sentence of the article. Jumplike23, could you please write down the wording that you would propose for the first sentence so we can have an idea of what you're thinking? And now, replying to your question: my argument is, indeed, as simple as stated in my previous comment. I think it is notable enough to be covered extensively in the article and all necessary sub-articles, but just not as the definition of who that person is. Like Michael Jackson, Paula Deen, Anna Nicole Smith, or Tiger Woods, I am not sure if this will be as important as it seems now that it is ongoing, hence WP:Recentism. Btw, please allow for a bit of time between replies. I am checking this discussion often, but I may take a few hours to reply. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 04:28, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Our discussions above were specifically about adding mention in the first sentence, so mentioning previous discussions about mentioning the subject in the lead at all are out of place here. We are well beyond that. I even provided a whole list of diffs regarding the edit warring over it. The actual content is also listed above, with a fourth version which accounts for the fact that not all the women claim they were raped, but still that they were assaulted. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 06:43, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Michael Jackson + Paula Deen +Anna Smith + Tiger woods all together does not even equal 10% of Cosby , Cosby and his rapes alleged or otherwise is something that will be discussed for centuries to come. That have led to changes in laws about sexual assault. He has 57 accussers and more to come, 13 recinded degrees which is for certain a world record many times more than his closest competitor. This is probably the biggest scandal in US history. And it cannot be compared to any other sex scandal, given who Cosby was, is and is accussed of. You can add woody allen and roman Polanski as well in addition to the other 3 people you mentioned and your still not even getting close to the scandel. This discussion needs to be closed, you are just going to have to deal with it. Wwdamron (talk) 05:31, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree. This discussion is disruptive and just rehashes previous discussions. We are way beyond that. We have a consensus which Hamster will not accept. Well, that means they will just have to step aside and not be disruptive. I gave them to option of removing the heading or getting this section hatted. They have not acted, so I'll just hat it. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 06:47, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

User:BullRangifer, closing this discussion by yourself to push your own view is completely out of line! If you don't want to participate in general discussion and reaching a consensus then don't participate. But DON'T try to shut down the discussion of other editors. If you don't like reaching consensus, then Wikipedia is not for you. The only people who are pushing for changing the first sentence are yourself and User:Wwdamron who also happen to be the only people interested in shutting down any discussion about this. There are many people who specifically spoke out against this in a now archived thread. So there is currently NO consensus. Hijacking this page to push your own views is not how we do things. You guys have stated your opinions, now we must wait for others to pitch in. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 08:32, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Hamsterlopithecus, no, your total reordering of whole sections, changing original headings, and then creating an improper RfC when we already had a consensus, is wrong. The RfC is not legitimate as it interferes with an ongoing discussion of the same subject and is not neutrally worded. You are once again ignoring existing discussions and hijacking the whole discussion. The hatting needs to be restored. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 19:19, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

• Should not be mentioned in first sentence.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:49, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

The RfC was not formed properly and is yet another attempt by Hamster to disruptively hijack an existing discussion. Use it that discussion, which is above this improper section. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 19:28, 28 October 2015 (UTC) (Slight tweak added to clarify what "it" meant. -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk} 16:27, 31 October 2015 (UTC))

57 Accusers, 9 Lawsuits, 2 Open Criminal Investigations, 1 Possible Confession from Cosby's own daughter he abused the Nanny, 13 World Record Ascended Honoaray Degrees, Countless of otherplaces distancing themselves from Cosby. Most Cosby's friends in show business agreee he is a Serial Rapist, including some who have changed their minds. "Cosby is an Alleged Serial Rapist " is a very kind opening line wouldn't you say ?Wwdamron (talk) 17:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

***** UPDATE November 13, 2015 . Since 3 days ago, Cosby has added 4 more women suing him and 2 more rescinded Honorary Degrees. And Camille Cosby has not made a public appearance since November 12, 2015. Cosby has reportedly been in Hiding in his Home in Massachusetts since he did the march in Selma.

57 Accusers, 9 Lawsuits(1 Insurance Company & 13 Women), 2 Open Criminal Investigations, 1 Possible Confession from Cosby's own daughter he abused the Nanny, 15 World Record Ascended Honoaray Degrees.

I am going to add Sexual Assault to the Lead Sentence soon, if someone else does not do it. Wwdamron (talk) 16:06, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

The lead sentence? OK, that's unnecessary. As long as it's in the lead somewhere we should be good. Making it lead sentence is totally recentism at work.DreamGuy (talk) 01:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

DreamGuy, The Lead sentence tells Cosby's other past occupations - "comedian, actor, and author" what's wrong with "comedian, actor, author and accused serial rapist"? Why would you put "comedian, actor, and author" in the Lead sentence ?

***** UPDATE November 14, 2015 . Since 1 days ago, Cosby has added 1 more rescinded Honorary Degrees.

57 Accusers, 9 Lawsuits(1 Insurance Company & 13 Women), 2 Open Criminal Investigations, 1 Possible Confession from Cosby's own daughter he abused the Nanny, 16 World Record Ascended Honoaray Degrees. Camille Cosby has not made a public appearance since November 12, 2015 & Bill Cosby has reportedly been in Hiding in his Home in Massachusetts since he did the march in Selma. Wwdamron (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

So?DreamGuy (talk) 01:19, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I strongly support adding a note about the accusations in the first sentence. The sexual assault allegations are at the moment one of the most notable things about Cosby, and there's every probability that they will be his most enduring and memorable legacy. People should know about them up top. I can't tell if there's a consensus here or not...but I'm going to add it. I guess people will revert if they want to.NoahB (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL. If it comes to that yes, but as of now, he has yet to be charged or convicted of any crimes. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:23, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I support including mention of the accusations. There have been numerous WP:RS about these accusations, and he is notable for them. It may even be what he is most notable for. --Jersey92 (talk) 00:31, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

He has been charged and a warrant issued for his arrest. It is time to include this in the lede. --Jersey92 (talk) 16:15, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree that the allegations should be mentioned in the opening line of the article. I was going to change it myself, but I decided to instead see if it was discussed. At this point, there are actual charges against him pending, and dozens of women have come forward to accuse him. Beyond that, his own statements lend credence to the accusations.

Frankly, I think it's a travesty for him to be remembered first and foremost as an entertainer when there are so many who have accused him of extreme misconduct. Mike O (talk) 16:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

examples of sexual assault in second sentence in a BLP

Here is one: John R. Dallager (born March 4, 1947)[1] is a retired United States Air Force Major General. He served as the fifteenth Superintendent of the United States Air Force Academy from 2000-2003. He resigned the position in the wake of the sexual assault scandal at the Academy and was demoted from the rank of lieutenant general to major general upon his retirement. --JumpLike23 (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Is this gentleman notable for anything other than the sexual assault accusations?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:45, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I would think Cosby is more Notable now in the world for his Sexual Assault allegations than anyone else in U.S. history. Wwdamron (talk) 18:27, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

If you were born yesterday and don't pay attention to the world, sure. DreamGuy (talk) 01:25, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

the most notable alleged sexual perpetrator? I think he may be, not including murderers who also sexually assault. The notability of the sexual assault allegations deserve to be in the lede. It is time for a new discussion/vote --JumpLike23 (talk) 06:51, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

JumpLike23, do you mean mention in the second sentence, per the title of this section? I still think that's a good idea. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:28, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, second sentence work better. I am just not sure the support will be there from a majority of editors.--JumpLike23 (talk) 07:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Rescinded honorary degrees

Honorary degrees that have been rescinded, need to be indicated. I don't see any mentions at WP:MOS to the contrary. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:16, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

We use normal font for such - use of boldface is reserved to specific places per WP:MOS. I unbolded material which ought not to have been bolded in the first place. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:38, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Got it, thanks for clarifying. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any mention of this one from Springfield College. See here: http://www.masslive.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2015/10/springfield_college_bill_cosby.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.235.193.219 (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

On December 7th, 2015, Swarthmore College rescinded the honorary degree that it awarded to Cosby in 1995. Link here: http://www.swarthmore.edu/news-events/swarthmore-rescinds-bill-cosbys-honorary-degree Can this be updated? 19:53, 7 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.194.6 (talk)

'Shawn Upshaw paternity lawsuit' Title Change

Hello Fellow Editors

There needs to be a title change as there is no 'paternity lawsuit' the title of the section should be something like 'Shawn Upshaw Extortion Trial and Conviction' 66.235.36.153 (talk) 19:11, 21 December 2015 (UTC)Respectfully A Contributor

Cosby has now been charged with a felony

It seems most of the debate over whether or not to include the sexual assault allegations in the lead sentence was that Cosby had never been charged with a crime. Now that he has, it seems appropriate to add it. Feel free to use this section to discuss any other ways in which the article should be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdude04 (talk • contribs) 16:17, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure that this is necessary. The first sentence is useful to define what the person is or does for a living, or makes him or her notable enough to merit an article. If the majority (a real majority, not just the first people to reply to this) really feel like it should be included, then let's do it. But can we at least agree on the best way to break this highly sensitive news? This has been a topic of strong disagreement on the talk page for a while now, so we shouldn't take this lightly. As of this comment, the unsigned user above has changed the lead sentence to:

• Bill Cosby is an American stand-up comedian, actor, and author, who has been accused by multiple women of sexual assault.[1]

I suggest that we remove the mention until we decide how to best word this (as per WP:BLP). If it is to be mentioned in the first sentence, I suggest that we use something like "... has been charged for with a felony sex crime from 2004" as this is more precise. I would also suggest we do it in a second sentence following the original "... is an American stand-up comedian, actor, and author". My 2 cents. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2015 (UTC)