Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 April 28

April 28

Category:Association football positions

• Category:Association football central defenders to Category:Association football centre-backs
• Category:Association football fullbacks to Category:Association football full-backs
• Category:Association football wing halves to Category:Association football wing-halves

Nominator's rationale:

• For consistency with the sections of Defender (association football) and Midfielder. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 15:23, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 11:45, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose on the basis that nominator has failed to take into account the possibility that the article they want to match is incorrect, rather than the categories. Indeed, use of dash is not common in modern parlance, and 'central defenders' is used far more commonly than 'centre back' (and is clearer). GiantSnowman 11:47, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Per Google, "central defender" yields over 1 million results, while "centre back" almost 10 million. Also, all prominent CBs are listed as "centre-back" (with dash) in their infobox (see Sergio Ramos, Giorgio Chiellini, Virgil van Dijk, and Matthijs de Ligt, to name a few). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 22:28, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Per Google, "central defender" yields over 1 million results, while "centre-back" almost 10 million. While "fullback" is more common in American football, "full-back" is the correct term in football. Same for wing-back, the correct term includes the dash.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 18:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Category:Traditionalist Catholic magazines

• Propose merging Category:Traditionalist Catholic magazines to Category:Catholic magazines
• Propose merging Category:Traditionalist Catholic newspapers to Category:Catholic newspapers

Nominator's rationale: For the bulk of items in these categories, it appears that inclusion is determined through some subjective judgement of editorial line. I believe that WP:SUBJECTIVECAT and possibly WP:OPINIONCAT apply here; we shouldn't have separate categories for progressive, conservative, liberal etc. publications. It's true that for a small number of the items the categorisation seems more clearly fitting (The Angelus (magazine) is the official publication of the SSPX, a traditionalist group; The Remnant (newspaper) describes itself as traditional and promotes Lefebvre and other prominent traditionalists), but then the issue is WP:SMALLCAT. Cheers, gnu57 08:20, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment, the categories were created after this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:35, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment -- I seriously wonder whether that split was in fact appropriate. These are periodicals and it makes little difference whether they are in broadsheet/tabloid format or presented as magazines. The problem if there is one is that this is mixing traditional Catholicism (in communion with Rome) with splinter groups. I note that there is already some overlap. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:19, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment Are they in communion with Rome at all? Based on the title, I thought that the main article is Traditionalist Catholicism, Catholics who refuse to accept the decisions of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965). Several of them consider every Pope since the 1960s to be a heretic. Dimadick (talk) 09:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
    • Broadly speaking, anyone who promotes pre-Vatican II religious customs and practices such as the Tridentine Mass, the priest standing ad orientem or women wearing chapel veils in church can be considered a traditionalist. Ultra-traditionalists/"rad trads" are the ones who might regard Vatican II as invalid, break from Rome, and/or believe that there hasn't been a real pope since Pius XII. (For the canonical status of the various groups, see Template:Traditionalist Catholicism). Regular, non-radical traditionalists tended to support Benedict XVI, who wrote Summorum Pontificum and was a proponent of ressourcement (rather than aggiornamento) and the "hermeneutic of continuity". Cheers, gnu57 14:17, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
• After the above comments it becomes clear that Traditional Catholicism is a far from homogeneous group, hence I support the nomination now. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
• Question: should these not also be selectively merged to Category:Traditionalist Catholicism? – Fayenatic London 15:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 18:18, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Category:American military personnel by descent

• Propose merging Category:American military personnel of Indian descent to Category:American people of Indian descent

Nominator's rationale: All of these categories fail WP:OCEGRS as intersections of nationality, ancestry, and occupation. User:Namiba 12:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Also nominated:

• Category:American military personnel of Pakistani descent to Category:American people of Pakistani descent
• Category:American military personnel of Sri Lankan descent to Category:American people of Sri Lankan descent
• Category:American military personnel of Vietnamese descent to Category:American people of Vietnamese descent (this one I am less sure of given the long history of South Vietnamese-US military cooperation.

Category:Animal industrial complex

• Propose deleting Category:Animal industrial complex (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  

Nominator's rationale: Creating this category populated with every human use of animals or animal products seems like an exercise in POV to me. If it only contained articles about animal rights that would be ok, but we already have category:animal rights. SpinningSpark 11:02, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Category:Priyanka Chopra

• Propose deleting Category:Priyanka Chopra (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  

Nominator's rationale: Too little content for an eponymous category ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:53, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Category:People from West Berlin

• Propose merging Category:People from West Berlin to Category:People from Berlin

Nominator's rationale: Very few articles. None of the subjects are really defined as "from West Berlin". Clearly it would be possible to populate the category, but I'm not convinced it's useful. There is a similar Category:People from East Berlin‎ and that has a lot more articles and many of the subjects clearly have a defining relationship with the political situation of East Berlin, so I do think that should be kept. Rathfelder (talk) 20:33, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

• Keep but this should be a historic category for notable people who were resident in the decades before the removal of the Berlin Wall in 1989. In the period when Berlin was divided which part a person was in was highly defining. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:21, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
• Merge unless it is feasible to restructure this to a container category. Politicians of the West Berlin government would be part of it for a start, but I do not know if any other types of subcategories would fit. Other than that, most West Berlin people will also have lived in an undivided Berlin part of their life, either before the division or after the reunification, so that "people from Berlin" makes perfect sense for them. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:34, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
• At present it is not a category for notable people who were resident. Its a category for people who are notable for something they did elsewhere but were born in West Berlin. I've been through several hundred articles of people from Berlin. "West Berlin" is hardly ever mentioned, even for people who lived there while the Wall was there. However the situation is different for people who lived in East Berlin at that time, as many of those articles talk about East Berlin, and so I am populating Category:People from East Berlin‎. Clearly West Berlin was much less isolated. Coming from East Berlin was defining. I'm not convinced that coming from West Berlin was. People from West Berlin could and did move to other places. People from the East got shot when they tried to do that. There dont seem to be any separate categories for East or West Berlin politicians or institutions. The Abgeordnetenhaus of Berlin article and its members category runs on from 1951 to today. Rathfelder (talk) 21:47, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 06:43, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• Delete Merge while it might be useful in theory, categories are supposed to make navigation easier and, as described above, this does not. Perhaps Category:People of West Berlin would be more useful.--User:Namiba 13:19, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
• Merge - there are only 5 articles and no subcats, and none of the 5 seems to have been connected in a defining way with West Berlin. Oculi (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Category:St. Francis Yacht Club

• Propose Deleting Category:St. Francis Yacht Club
• Propose Deleting Category:San Francisco Yacht Club

Nominator's rationale: Per the spirit of WP:C2F, categories with only one eponymous article

The only things in these categories are the main articles (which don't mention the sailors) and two biography articles each (that don't even mention the club and should therefore be removed from the categories). I didn't feel able to use a speedy nomination for a category I just purged though. All the biography articles about Olympic sailors so I'm assuming they either trained at, or received an award from, or were members of these clubs. But, even if you added that connection, it would leave us with either WP:PERFCAT, WP:OCAWARD, or WP:OCASSOC. I listed the current contents in each main article talk page, here and here, so no work is lost if anyone wants to pursue whatever this is. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:20, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• Background We recently deleted a nearly identical category here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:20, 28 April 2020 (UTC)