Jump to content

Talk:Odesa: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 90: Line 90:


:Odessa is different than every other city on this list because it is more firmly entrenched as an English language place name than any of these other cities. There are eight cities in the United States named Odessa. Unlike the problematic claim that "Kiev" was a "Russian name" and not an English one, "Odessa" is an American name, fully and completely. Its origins may have been in Russian, but it is 100% English now. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist|talk]]) 15:03, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
:Odessa is different than every other city on this list because it is more firmly entrenched as an English language place name than any of these other cities. There are eight cities in the United States named Odessa. Unlike the problematic claim that "Kiev" was a "Russian name" and not an English one, "Odessa" is an American name, fully and completely. Its origins may have been in Russian, but it is 100% English now. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist|talk]]) 15:03, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
: No, also [[Chernobyl]], but the Ukrainian state propaganda does not seem to be interested in this one.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 16:33, 18 September 2020 (UTC)


== Renaming (September 2020) ==
== Renaming (September 2020) ==

Revision as of 16:33, 18 September 2020

Template:Vital article

Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 2 external links on Odessa. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:56, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Odesa"

@TaivoLinguist: The form "Odesa", most likely a transliteration of its native Ukrainian name, finds frequent usage in English-language literature as evident by a simple Google Books search. For example, Breaking the Tounge by Matthew D Pauly reads "The city and region of Odesa (Russian: Odessa) [...]". Otherwise, Google also returns 5 million web resources listing "Odesa", of which most are in English.

Another example I gave previously is Google Maps, the most-used maps service, which also lists "Odesa" (conversely, though, OpenStreetMap shows "Odessa"). Furthermore, video game company Ubisoft recently announced a studio in the city that will be called "Ubisoft Odesa".

Obviously, "Odessa" is more common, and I won't request renaming the page, but a simple mention of "Odesa" is more than warranted. Lordtobi (✉) 09:40, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now Odessa more common beacause Russian Empire and his later variation called Sovet Union used russian language as main. But now Odesa is Ukrainian town and Odesa appearance rise by time Investigatio (talk) 12:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Odessa is not Russian. It is an English name. Saying that the English name Odessa is Russian is like saying that the English name Jennifer is Cornish. it may have roots in either Russian or Ukrainian but in English anyway, it has bleep all to do with Russian, just as in English, Jennifer has bleep all to do with Cornish. 199.101.62.225 (talk) 15:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But our city have a name Odesa because foreign names translated from ukrainian. When this lands occupied Russian Empire someone invent name "Одесса" in Russion language. But now its territory of ukraine and all true names is mawes whos written in ukrainan language. For Odesa name with single "s" is used. Investigatio (talk) 12:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also how many of those results are either discussions about wether to call it Odessa or Odesa, and how many results are about other places that use the Odesa spelling? I went to Sri Lanka a few years ago and stayed in a place called Odesa Town House, (Odesa is pronounced as oh-dee-zuh, with the ode part being like the letters o and D and the sa part like a za). 199.101.62.225 (talk) 15:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Odesa" is even less likely to ever be the most common English usage (Google searches are really not very reliable, by the way), than "Kyiv". Why? Because of Odessa, Texas; Odessa, California; Odessa... as English placenames. --Taivo (talk) 21:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Because in english speaking countries local cities named Odessa as native name. In ukraine Одесса is not original name. It's only at unofficial russian language. Maybe in Texas Odessa have two "s", But Odesa, Ukraine have only one Investigatio (talk) 12:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly don't understand the concept of an exonym in a language. There are not "different spellings" of English exonyms. There is but one. "Odessa" is not a Russian word now nor is it a Ukrainian one. It is an English name for a range of cities around the globe including the city in Ukraine. Ukrainians simply don't have the power to change that at the drop of a hat because they don't like the way that English speakers spell an English name. --Taivo (talk) 15:22, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think this discussion needs to be closed, unless somebody is willing to make an official rename request and present evidence. I believe that the acknowledgement in the article is good enough for now. And again, as I said from my previous IP address, Odessa is no more a Russian name than Jennifer is a Cornish name, which is to say not at all. somebody please close this discussion if this is all that she wrote here, as this is going nowhere fast. 38.111.120.74 (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kyiv not "Kiev" / Odesa not "Odessa".--Lanamy (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not per WP:COMMONNAME. As long as this is the English Wikipedia, then common English usage prevails. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 18:50, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Kyiv is well on its way to becoming standard English usage. It will take somewhat longer for Odesa to achieve standard English usage, but it is also on its way. The timespan, as with Kyiv, will likely be dependent upon its positioning in potential military as well as political events in the area. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:15, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure which planet you're living on, but the chances of "Odessa" losing that "s" are slim to none in English because English "Odessa" placenames are far more common than "Kiev" ones. English speakers don't like multiple spellings for the same name. But even if that were to happen in the distant future, it ain't now. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 16:09, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The very fact that the form "Odesa" is being used by top-tier resources such as English-language texts emanating from the United Nations as well as within governmental notices and bulletins from around the English-speaking world, to say nothing of Google Maps etc, already gives "Odesa" the stamp of approval for official use — an extremely prestigious starting point.
As for places around the English-speaking world that are named "Odessa", those names date back to the 19th and early 20th century when Ukraine was considered to be a region of Russia and forms such as "he was born in Kiev, Russia" or "she was born in Odessa, Russia" were commonplace. Today, such place names are as historically relevant as those for Kief, North Dakota, Konigsberg, California or Breslau, Ontario. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:55, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No one in the US cares where "Odessa, Texas" got its name and especially not about official UN usage. As long as it's got two esses, that's the way that the name will be spelled whether talking about Ukraine or Texas. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By the same token, no one in the US may care where Calcutta, Indiana, Calcutta, Ohio or Calcutta, West Virginia got their names [their Wikipedia entries all carry the hatnote — For the city in India, see Kolkata], but the way that the name is spelled is no longer the same when talking about Indiana and about India. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:35, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
English usage for those cities changed despite prevailing American usage because of the number of English speakers in India. In other words, English speakers were changing the usage, just English speakers outside the US. Odessa has no such English-speaking population to force the dropping of the 's' contrary to US usage. Apples and oranges. But all your sophistry is pointless. Common English usage right now is overwhelmingly for "Odessa". End of story. Perhaps it might change one day (long after "Kyiv" is accepted), but that is just gazing into a crystal ball and, like every other gypsy fortune teller, telling the story of a future that matches your own prejudices. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:32, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not apples and oranges, no sophistry and most certainly not pointless. If "[N]o one in the US cares where "Odessa, Texas" got its name", then one would presume that the residents of US or Canadian places named "Odessa" care as little regarding the spelling of Odesa, Ukraine, as the residents of Cracow, Queensland or Cracow, Michigan care about the spelling of Kraków, Poland or the residents of Calcutta, Indiana care about the spelling of Kolkata, India.
There are various places in the New World which were named using now-outdated or renamed forms of places in the Old World, thus making arguments in support of such antiquated linkages invalid.
As for common English usage, in the same manner that predictions regarding the stability of the name "Kiev" proved to be incorrect, predictions regarding the inviolability of the name "Odessa" are also about to crumble. First the US State Department, the United Nations and Google Maps, then The New York Times, The AP Stylebook and all the rest. So it goes. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:40, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You really fail to understand the meaning WP:COMMONNAME and the point of my argument. You are now mixing apples and oranges with bananas and blueberries. Not a single, solitary one of your examples is analogous to "Odessa". Not one. You might as well be talking about physics for all the relevance they have to the point here. But the bottom line is still the same as always, both here and at Kiev, that until you have actual evidence that the majority of English usage has shifted to "Odesa", you're just wasting your time. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 10:50, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Odesa not Odessa"

  • Hi! In this article, the name of the Ukrainian city of Odesa is incorrect! Correctly Odesa not Odessa.[1] [2] This is the same as Kyiv not Kiev. This is due to the prolonged influence of the Soviet regime in my country (Ukraine). #OdesanotOdessa #KyivnotKiev. Please edit the title in this article. ЄвгенКані (talk) 22:22, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.kmu.gov.ua/npas/243262567
  2. ^ https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/55-2010-%D0%BF/conv
In Wikipedia we base our use of placenames by the simple principle of common English usage. The most common spelling of this city's name in English is Odessa. So that's what the English Wikipedia uses. Wikipedia doesn't care whether the name is Russian or Chinese or Zulu, all that matters is how it is most commonly spelled in English. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just ignore. It is a political conflict due to the recent anti-russian movements. When Odessa was founded by Russia surely its name was romanized and it was Odessa, not Odesa. Majority of citizens always spoke and still speak Russian and in Russian it sounds Odessa so it is more common and desired name among odessits. Of course there should be redirection and mentions about Odesa too while it is in Ukraine. Dron007 (talk) 02:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing anti-Russian in linguistic adjustments. The Russian exonym for the Ukrainian city of Odesa is Odessa and Odesa's Russian-language media depicts the city's name [in Cyrillic] as "Odessa", while Odesa's Ukrainian-language media depicts the city's name [likewise in Cyrillic] as "Odesa". The past English exonym for the Ukrainian city of Odesa was the Russian form, Odessa, but the current English exonym, per U.S. Department of State, is the Ukrainian form, Odesa. As for the last words in your sentence, you most likely meant, "...and mentions about Odesa too since it is in Ukraine", rather than "...while it is in Ukraine". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Roman Spinner has a very hard time understanding the Wikipedia concept of "common English usage". In common English usage, Odessa is the overwhelming usage. The State Department doesn't matter especially since the State Department's job is to make foreign governments happy. Odessa is the form in English by an even wider margin than Kiev is the choice over Kyiv. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 23:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Point of information - Kiev has been renamed Kyiv

Now that the move request succeeded and Kyiv is the name of the main article in Wikipedia, this Odessa article is the only one of the eight listed by the Ukraine Ministry of Foreign Affairs #CorrectUA initiative that is inconsistent [1]. All of the others below:

  1. Ukraine
  2. Kyiv
  3. Lviv
  4. Odesa (redirect)
  5. Kharkiv
  6. Mykolaiv
  7. Rivne
  8. Ternopil

Just thought this was useful regarding the debate in the above sections. -- Fuzheado | Talk 13:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Given that Wikipedia now does not use the Russian transliteration of the name of the capital of Ukraine, it would be logical now to use the Ukrainian transliteration of the city and oblast Odesa. Odesa is the last city that still has Russian transliteration. -- vitaliyf261 | Talk 16:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Odessa is different than every other city on this list because it is more firmly entrenched as an English language place name than any of these other cities. There are eight cities in the United States named Odessa. Unlike the problematic claim that "Kiev" was a "Russian name" and not an English one, "Odessa" is an American name, fully and completely. Its origins may have been in Russian, but it is 100% English now. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, also Chernobyl, but the Ukrainian state propaganda does not seem to be interested in this one.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:33, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming (September 2020)

I propose to rename this article to Odesa according to the Ukrainian, not Russian transliteration, which was recently done with the Ukrainian capital.

Strong oppose, no fucking way this is a common Emglish name.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Odesa&oldid=979072737"