Talk:SpaceX Starship: Difference between revisions
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::::::Besides, I argued to let it sit as a subsection, someone else moved it to section-level. [[User:QRep2020|QRep2020]] ([[User talk:QRep2020|talk]]) 13:56, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
::::::Besides, I argued to let it sit as a subsection, someone else moved it to section-level. [[User:QRep2020|QRep2020]] ([[User talk:QRep2020|talk]]) 13:56, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::I agree. However, the criticism section should be for Starship itself, such as “Starship is way too complicated for moon landing”, not for the development itself. For that, it should be inside the [[SpaceX South Texas launch site]] and briefly mentioned here. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 14:33, 13 October 2021 (UTC) |
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Unfortunately, no. The reason being that they are not notable enough. A notable person should already have a Wikipedia page (notable enough to be created) and have reliable sources covering them (notable enough to be mentioned). Sources such as YouTube videos, Musk's tweets, Teslarati, blogs, and more are not reliable, since there is no one to fact-check them. The few that are reliable are NASASpaceFlight.com and big news outlets in this case.
Sure, but it would be extremely cluttered with new-ish information being added to the end of the article. Only launches and RUDs (destruction) of test articles is added for that reason. SpaceX Starship development history is specfically made for documenting more detailed history, but please add reliable source to the event. Something as miniscule as a shipment to Starship might not be notable enough for inclusion, please discuss at the article's talk page.
Short answer: Please don't. Long answer: These criticisms are valid, since they have valid sources from verifiable websites. We need everyone, including SpaceX critics, SpaceX (responsible) fans, neutral about SpaceX, and even never heard of it to work on this article, so that they are as neutral as possible. Neutrality, not praise, is our goal.
The SpaceX Super Heavy and SpaceX Starship (spacecraft) articles are the current location for placing any new updates, so long as they are reliably sourced. Updates like FAA licenses, Mishap investigation closures, ect, ect, however, go on the article for the flight test itself. Major design changes (such as the v1, v2, and v3 versions), go on the SpaceX Starship design history article, after the previous version is no longer in operation. For example, the v1 -> v2 change will be able to be listed after the last v1 flight. |
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Article needs to be rewritten, reorganized, and possibly split
This article propagates the confusion that arose when SpaceX used the same name ("Starship") for both the system as a whole and the space vehicle. As a result, even the very first sentence in the lede is incorrect and misleading, and the reader cannot figure this out without reading the whole article. Even then, some things are missing or obscure, such as the design elements of the booster that are common with the vehicle. One way to solve this might be to split the article, possibly into three pieces:
- SpaceX Starship (system)
- SpaceX Starship (vehicle)
- SpaceX Superheavy booster (I think we already have the start of this article.)
The existing article would serve as the basis of the system article. Proposed lede sentences:
- The SpaceX Starship system consists of a superheavy booster, a family of vehicles, and a ground support infrastructure, all under development by SpaceX. When the booster is mated with a suitable vehicle as a second stage, the result is a fully reusable, two-stage-to-orbit super heavy-lift launch vehicle. Some members of the vehicle family can return to Earth for reuse, while others are intended to remain in space for other missions. Confusingly, the vehicles are also named "SpaceX Starship".
Thoughts? -Arch dude (talk) 19:56, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
- It is complicated. Yes, Arch dude, this article is about the entire launch vehicle. And, you are correct that that names of the major vehicles and two-stage stack are confusing, especially since SpaceX has chosen to overload the term Starship. We, as Wikipedia editors definitely need a consistent, cross-article nomenclature for how we refer to the booster/"Super Heavy", and the second stage (also a spaceship)/"Starship", and the whole system for now, we've been mostly using "Starship system", but sometimes, confusingly, just "Starship". I very much support having this discussion.
- It is a different topic--or at least I think it would be most productively discussed separately--having separate wiki articles for the ship and the booster. One reason is there was a messy and hard (and disheartening) smash together of separate articles which used to exist for the whole two-stage launch vehicle, and a different one for just the "Starship" second stage and spaceship. I was for retaining that; but in the end, the consensus went against my WP:!vote and the articles got remade into an article on the LV and another article on the super-detailed history of the development program. I really think that this should be discussed as a separate and different topic, 'cause it will go long and hard I suspect, and just getting names/descriptors for the three things would be a much easier first step. But, yeah, the second one is needed too. Cheers. N2e (talk) 02:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- OK, I boldly changed the lede, because it very clearly did not reflect the subject of the article. I don't claim that my changes are "right", merely that I think the result is at least slightly less wrong than the prior version. Please revert if needed, or massively modify further, or comment here. -Arch dude (talk) 15:08, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
lunar cargo variant versus HLS
- @C-randles: I think that these are technically two different things. SpaceX is participating in the Commercial Lunar Payload Services program to land cargos on moon. SpaceX is also now the (contested) contractor for the Starship HLS. two different contracts, two different missions, and probably two different variants, one crew-rated and one not. If we are going to glom then together as one variant, we should at least identify the two sub-variants and link to both articles. -Arch dude (talk) 01:58, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- I believe it was :@Mfb: that merged them into one. I was also confused in my edits. If there are two different contracts then I think we should make that clear. One will have life support and the other may well not. Quite possibly different unloading methods as well. So 2 different variants does seem probable. However, if we don't have a RS ref for this such that it might just be deleted life support equip and otherwise similar, it may be better to group 'lunar landers' (Lunar‑surface‑to‑orbit transport: looks like transport from moon rather than to moon) into one section which makes clear there is one won but disputed contract and another potential contract? C-randles (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, concur. The Artemis HLS contract with SpaceX is an entirely different program than the (somewhat experimental) NASA program CLPS to try to attract private companies to bid services (without cost-plus contracts like old space gvmt contracting practices of the 1960s through, still today in some parts of US NASA contracts, including SLS and Orion). They are two very diff programs, whether or not the vehicles SpaceX may use for CLPS may have similarities to the one they design under HLS for NASA. N2e (talk) 14:42, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- After sleeping on it, I realized that we have no reason to believe that there is much in common at all between the variants, and making that assumption is a form of WP:SYNTH. I boldly changed back to treating the lunar cargo variant as a separate variant, even after a good effort by C-randles to try the sub-variant approach. Please check out my attempt and C-randles' attempt, and revert mine if the other is preferable. -Arch dude (talk) 15:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think we can keep the current list (generic cargo, tanker, lunar uncrewed, lunar crewed, generic crew) for now, Earth return is possible for all variants apart from the two lunar ones. We'll learn more how to categorize things in the future. It's possible Starships going to Mars will add at least one more category. --mfb (talk) 16:13, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- Agree. I'm speculate that there will be quite a few variants for space stations or parsd of space stations orbiting Earth, the Moon, Mars, and possible other planets, plus moonbase componemts, but we cannot add them until we have reliable sources. -Arch dude (talk) 17:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think we can keep the current list (generic cargo, tanker, lunar uncrewed, lunar crewed, generic crew) for now, Earth return is possible for all variants apart from the two lunar ones. We'll learn more how to categorize things in the future. It's possible Starships going to Mars will add at least one more category. --mfb (talk) 16:13, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Standardized design and production?
SpaceX has standardized on stainless steel and a 9 m diameter design, as we note in the article. But this is really a much bigger deal, because it enabled them to standardize on an assembly approach and tooling. They build 9 m rings and then weld them together rather than building a bunch of different unique parts. There are also some unique parts, of course, and each ring is probably(?) a little different. In general I suspect a Starship (or booster, or storage tank) is a lot easier to build than a traditional space vehicle. However, I only see hints of this in the trade press, so I don't know how to add it to the article. Does anyone have a decent reference for me? -Arch dude (talk) 15:33, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Hello, probably a bit late here, but I have just added manifacturing section for that. These information can be taken from either photogrpaphers, nasaspaceflight and a few news articles. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 11:12, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Payload to LEO?
We list the current guesstimates for payload mass to LEO (100 t - 150 t) for a fully reusable launch and the current guesstimate (250 t) for an expendable launch. But one of the things The launch system can do is place a Starship spacecraft into LEO that is never intended to return to Earth, to continue to be used in space. An example is Starship HLS. The dry mass of that spacecraft is about 120 t, and it can presumably launch with at least 100 t of cargo of its own, or more if the Super Heavy is expended. To be comparable other launch systems intended to put spacecraft into LEO, the Starship mass must be considered part of the payload in this case. Is this where the "250 t expended" came from? I know it's asking a lot, but is there a reference anywhere other than Elon's tweet? -Arch dude (talk) 01:42, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- The 250 tonnes are still payload inside Starship. Generally payload doesn't contain the vehicle carrying it. See the Space Shuttle for comparison. The difference comes from not reserving landing fuel, skipping the heat shield and potentially some more changes. --mfb (talk) 05:39, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- When Starship is intended to return to Earth, it's not part of the payload: it's like the shuttle. When the intent of the launch is for the spacecraft to be used as a long-duration facility in LEO or beyond, then the spacecraft IS the payload. It's more like the components of the Gateway, or like Orion. Unless Elon's 250 t accounted for this, the press and/or space community will need to account for it and we will need to add it to the article when we have a reference. -Arch dude (talk) 14:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Your personal preference doesn't matter for the article. You'll have to convince the spaceflight industry to use your personal definition of payload first. --mfb (talk) 15:23, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. Until a reliable source discusses this accounting discrepancy, we cannot mention it in our article. And by a "reliable source" I do not mean a blog post. -Arch dude (talk) 15:43, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Your personal preference doesn't matter for the article. You'll have to convince the spaceflight industry to use your personal definition of payload first. --mfb (talk) 15:23, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- When Starship is intended to return to Earth, it's not part of the payload: it's like the shuttle. When the intent of the launch is for the spacecraft to be used as a long-duration facility in LEO or beyond, then the spacecraft IS the payload. It's more like the components of the Gateway, or like Orion. Unless Elon's 250 t accounted for this, the press and/or space community will need to account for it and we will need to add it to the article when we have a reference. -Arch dude (talk) 14:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
Should the development history be deleted?
The develop history exists in here, and this section is very hard and long to navigate. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 02:41, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- There is no opposition against this proposal. I will remove the "large" history section, and keep the smaller section. Changes can be reverted anyways. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the major improvements!
@CactiStaccingCrane: Thank you for your work. I did a tiny amount earlier and then gave up because the job was so big. Please continue your work. I intend to make a few minor tweaks to your work on the lede, but as with all Wikipedia edits, you should feel free to revert them if you disagree with them. In particular, the Starship system is not the booster+spacecraft stack. A fully-reusable 2-stage stack is one configuration of the system. A Starship HLS sitting on the lunar surface is another configuration of the system. A Starship HLS sitting on a booster is not fully reusable, etc. -Arch dude (talk) 01:18, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the kind words! I will rewrite and add these details as well, it is true that Starship is much more than just a booster+spacecraft. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:23, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
GA review
Extended content
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. GA Review
Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 09:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
If I have demonstrated incompetence or caused offense, please let me know. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 09:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
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Good Article review progress box
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Did you know nomination
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 05:27, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- ... that the flaps of SpaceX's Starship spacecraft do not generate lift but instead induce drag to control the spacecraft's descent? Source: "The vehicle therefore uses four steel landing flaps, positioned near the front and rear of the vehicle, to control its descent. This is much like a skydiver uses their arms and legs to control a free-fall. 'It's quite different from anything else ... we're doing a controlled fall,' Elon Musk said during a Starship update in 2019. 'You're trying to create drag rather than lift - it's really the opposite of an aircraft.'" [1]
- ALT1:... that the design of launch towers' arms allows them to "catch" and recover (retrieve?) the Super Heavy booster of SpaceX's Starship system? Source 1: "[...] SpaceX’s first custom-built ‘launch tower’ is a sort of backbone or anchor point for several massive, mechanical arms that will accomplish the actual tasks of servicing – and, perhaps, catching – Starships and Super Heavy boosters." [2] Source 2: "One month after SpaceX stacked Starship’s South Texas ‘launch tower’ to its full height, the company has installed the first arm on what amounts to the backbone of 'Mechazilla.'" [3]
- ALT2: ... that SpaceX's Starship rocket has twice the lift capacity of the Saturn V? If Starship then launched as an expendable, payload would be ~250 tons. What isn’t obvious from this chart is that Starship/Super Heavy is much denser than Saturn V. [4]
Improved to Good Article status by CactiStaccingCrane (talk). Self-nominated at 07:48, 14 September 2021 (UTC).
- No problems for ATL2.
- Rectify these. Will leave to the promoters to decide which of the hooks are better.--ZKang123 (talk) 12:01, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
- Alt1 is a completely new design that has never been tested in any way and that is likely to change a lot in the future based on test results. I would avoid that for now. --mfb (talk) 16:23, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ZKang123: I like that you suggested alts! I'm not seeing that a full review has been done, so I couldn't promote just yet. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 00:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- Apologies. Was busy and missed out this review. Looks good to go I guess. --ZKang123 (talk) 00:25, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ZKang123: to be clear, the article is new enough, long enough, plagiarism free, etc.? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 01:31, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- It has just recently attainer GA when it was nominated at the time, so its passable.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:33, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- ZKang123, nominations for DYK have to meet a certain number of requirements before approval, and while you might have checked, I can't see that that's been verified in the nom page. You might want to reference the reviewing guide in taking a full review. Let me know when you've finished that (i also find it helpful to use the reviewer's template), and sorry for the holdup! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 05:15, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
- a full review is needed for this nomination, unfortunately. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 06:46, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
- Apologies. Was busy and missed out this review. Looks good to go I guess. --ZKang123 (talk) 00:25, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ZKang123: I like that you suggested alts! I'm not seeing that a full review has been done, so I couldn't promote just yet. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 00:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- Alt1 is a completely new design that has never been tested in any way and that is likely to change a lot in the future based on test results. I would avoid that for now. --mfb (talk) 16:23, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- The ALTs seem a little in the weeds to me. The topic is naturally interesting because it's in the news, so I'd consider going with something simpler, like:
- ALT4 ... that SpaceX's reusable Starship launch vehicle has twice the thrust as the Apollo Program's Saturn V?
- ALT5 ...that SpaceX's reusable Starship launch vehicle will carry more than 10 million pounds (4.5 kt) of propellant?
- Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 07:54, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
- this might have gotten moved back for some reason theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 23:20, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
- Article is plenty long enough, was nominated within 7 days of promotion, is well cited and is neutral, lending due weight to the perspectives surrounding the spacecraft's environmental impact and safety. Fixed minor instance of close paraphrasing. @CactiStaccingCrane: The majority of the prose for "Criticism and controversies" section is duplicated from earlier sections in the article. This isn't a plagiarism concern AFAIK because it's within the same article, but it's a bit tacky and might cause the article to become inconsistent in case one section is updated without the other in turn. I recommend paring the specific critiques in each section down to a sentence or two and link to the "Criticism ..." section with {{Section link}}; for example: Some residents of Boca Chica Village, Brownsville, and environmental activists criticized the Starship development program for several reasons (see § Criticism and controversies for more details). If this is dealt with I approve of ALT4. DigitalIceAge (talk) 03:32, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Am fixing it right now.@DigitalIceAge: Done. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 03:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)- @CactiStaccingCrane: Looks good now, thanks! One more thing: I just realized the "twice that of a Saturn V rocket" bit isn't cited in the article. For the hook to be approved the corresponding sentence in the article has to have a citation at the end of it. I could add a citation to Elon's tweet linked above, but I think a secondary source would be more verifiable. Here's Astronomy magazine, the BBC, Business Insider, and The Conversation stating the same thing, if you wanna take a pick. DigitalIceAge (talk) 04:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- @DigitalIceAge: I think that the BBC one is a bit more reliable than the bunch. I will add the source now :) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 00:24, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you, ALT4 should be good to go now! DigitalIceAge (talk) 06:00, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- @DigitalIceAge: I think that the BBC one is a bit more reliable than the bunch. I will add the source now :) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 00:24, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- @CactiStaccingCrane: Looks good now, thanks! One more thing: I just realized the "twice that of a Saturn V rocket" bit isn't cited in the article. For the hook to be approved the corresponding sentence in the article has to have a citation at the end of it. I could add a citation to Elon's tweet linked above, but I think a secondary source would be more verifiable. Here's Astronomy magazine, the BBC, Business Insider, and The Conversation stating the same thing, if you wanna take a pick. DigitalIceAge (talk) 04:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- Article is plenty long enough, was nominated within 7 days of promotion, is well cited and is neutral, lending due weight to the perspectives surrounding the spacecraft's environmental impact and safety. Fixed minor instance of close paraphrasing. @CactiStaccingCrane: The majority of the prose for "Criticism and controversies" section is duplicated from earlier sections in the article. This isn't a plagiarism concern AFAIK because it's within the same article, but it's a bit tacky and might cause the article to become inconsistent in case one section is updated without the other in turn. I recommend paring the specific critiques in each section down to a sentence or two and link to the "Criticism ..." section with {{Section link}}; for example: Some residents of Boca Chica Village, Brownsville, and environmental activists criticized the Starship development program for several reasons (see § Criticism and controversies for more details). If this is dealt with I approve of ALT4. DigitalIceAge (talk) 03:32, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- this might have gotten moved back for some reason theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 23:20, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
The system as a whole is NOT a two-stage rocket. The system as a whole is a lot more than that.
This article is not exclusively, or even mostly, about a two-stage rocket. It is incorrect to say that the system IS a two-stage rocket. It is closer to say that the Starship IS a spacecraft that uses a booster when it is launched from Earth. Instead, I modified the lede to say that booster+spacecraft form a two-stage rocket. Please discuss. -Arch dude (talk) 18:52, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- We go by reliable sources, not your personal preference. But I don't see the difference you want to make anyway. If something forms a two-stage rocket when assembled, isn't it a two-stage rocket? Sources generally call it a two-stage rocket: 1, 2, 3, ... --mfb (talk) 23:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, a booster with a spacecraft on top is a tow-stage rocket. But not all Starships are two-stage rockets. a Starship that has landed on Mars is not a tow-stage rocket, but is is still part of the "SpaceX Starship system". I did not change the lede to my personal preference (i.e., The spacecraft is the Starship). I simply replaced a counterfactual statement with a factual statement. -Arch dude (talk) 01:47, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
- Take a look at the headline of your first ref: "SpaceX stacks Starship atop massive booster for 1st time to make the world's tallest rocket". This is almost exactly what I said. They do not say "Starship is a two-stage rocket." -Arch dude (talk) 01:56, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
You seem to think that "Starship system" refers to the future array of ships and boosters, and supporting infrastructure. While I personally agree, and think that it would be more prudent to refer to the full stack as the "Starship rocket", this article very clearly means said stack by "Starship system". In other words, the Starship system is a two-stage rocket, as used on Wikipedia.
If you want to start a discussion about refactoring the article in those terms, that's a perfectly reasonable discussion to be had. That being said, it's important not to charge into these things thinking that yours is the only interpretation of an ill-defined term, as you seem to have. [[User:Sin]larities421]] (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think two stage rocket is just short for 'two stage to orbit rocket'. While starship may operate as single stage for Earth to Earth rapid transport, it won't reach orbit and it is therefore ok to call it a two stage system. All rockets need "and various ground-based support infrastructure" so I think that is unnecessary in the first sentence. Yes Elon has talked of GSE as stage 0 but just because Elon has said something doesn't make it the standard of how stages are referred to. C-randles (talk) 17:08, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
- The problem seems to me to be that SpaceX has overloaded the term "Starship": they use "Starship" BOTH for referring to the second-stage of the two-stage rocket that will launch from Earth AND they also use the term "Starship" to describe the entire two-stage-to-orbit stack. Both uses are a "rocket". When Starship (the second stage) takes off from the Moon, or Mars, it will be a rocket, but of course just a single-state-to-orbit rocket. Both uses are quite commonly used in a wide variety of media sources, and so we do have in Wikipedia quite a number of sources that use Starship both ways. As editors writing Wikipedia for a global readership, we still have to try to explain things in clear language, and not have articles be internally inconsistent on what the terms mean. SpaceX also use "Starship system" to describe the entire two-stage rocket, in a number of sources, and media articles have picked up on this usage as well.
- Perhaps that was what Arch dude was attempting to bring up in the initial comment. Either way, its a bit of a mess and requires hard work by editors to make the prose clear. N2e (talk) 15:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
- I have abandoned the effort to restructure within this article. Until a consensus arises, I'll restrict myself to updating details. If THIS article must be about the two-stage rocket, then I feel we need a different article about the entire Starship "program" or whatever you call it since you have preempted the use of the word "system", and we need another article about the Starship spacecraft and its variants. But someone other than me will have to do it. -Arch dude (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Starship Payload to LEO
Musk has said multiple times that the reusable payload will be 100-150 tons, not below 100. He has also said that Starship would be able to transport up to 250 tons in an expendable configuration. Recarion (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yup, but the official source said otherwise (no expendable, 100+ ton reusable). I mean, relying on Elon's twitter for source is not the best idea, and many of the stats are calculated based on assuptions on the Raptor engines. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 05:30, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
You're right, my bad. However I do think it is reasonable to assume that the reusable payload is closer to 150 tons, and that the expendable payload will be 200+ tons(as the HLS Variant is likely to transport close to 200 tons from the Moon's orbit to the Lunar surface). However, until the rocket is fully functioning we can never truly know. Recarion (talk) 17:07, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Expert needed
This topic is in need of attention from an expert on the subject. The section or sections that need attention may be noted in a message below. |
Hello, this article need to be fact-checked by an "expert", more specfically, a person with reasonable knowledge at the topic. That could be a Starship enthusiast or even working in SpaceX. Some of the numbers are highly contested, such as LEO capacity, volume, etc. Please discuss these topics under this section. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 09:00, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if that's possible. Given the way SpaceX is developing this vehicle (through significant and frequent changes to the design, based on testing), I don't think they have a solid, final design. Everything they've said about its payload mass, fairing volume, etc. basically goals or targets. That gives a wide range and we (and SpaceX) have no way of knowing where in that range the eventual numbers will end up. It might be better to say that clearly in the article than try to hunt down the non-existent, "correct" numbers. Fcrary (talk) 17:32, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- Fair, let's just use number in SpaceX webpage. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
- Fcrary has it exactly right. SpaceX uses an iterative design approach where, at any given time in the development process for the Starship system, the numbers are from high-level design and somewhat rough, and will only be dialed in (iterated in) as various parts of the design settle over a number of years. This is well illustrated by the various concept-design numbers that have been given for the number of engines (on either the ship or the booster), or for the number and use of aerosurfaces on the ship & booster, etc. N2e (talk) 15:09, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
- Fair, let's just use number in SpaceX webpage. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Peer review
- This review is transcluded from Wikipedia:Peer review/SpaceX Starship/archive1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Extended content
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Hello, I want to have SpaceX Starship to be peer reviewed, because I am not sure how the article can be further improved. I have nominated the article to good article successfully and featured article unsuccessfully. The article has drastically changed, so these comments are irrelevant to the current version. Please, if you know how the article can be improved, tell me right now, and I will reply as soon as possible. If the peer review is comprehensive, I might nominate SpaceX Starship for featured article again. @Osunpokeh: one of the main contributors; @StarshipSLS: WikiProject's coordinator; @CRS-20: an active SpaceX related contributor for peer review CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 08:24, 4 October 2021 (UTC) Thanks, CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 02:46, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Comments by User:FormalDude:
Here's my initial feedback, I'll add more as I get the chance. ––FormalDude talk 04:09, 28 September 2021 (UTC) Done, in Plaid speed. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:24, 28 September 2021 (UTC) Comments by User:FirefangledfeathersWorking from the bottom up:
Done for now. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC) Thanks for the feedbacks! I added all of them to the article. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC) @CactiStaccingCrane: A couple more from me in the Description section. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:26, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Comments by AkbermampsFrom taking a quick look at the references section, the citation style used is a little inconsistent.
The captions in the gallery also have some minor issues.
That's all for now, but I do intend to try and check the rest of the article. Akbermamps 01:31, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
Comments by Starship SN20
@CactiStaccingCrane: Starship SN20 (talk) 11:16, 30 September 2021 (UTC) Thanks a lot! Am addressing them rn CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 14:47, 30 September 2021 (UTC) Comments from DanCherekReviewing this version.
I hope these are helpful. I also have a peer review open here for an article I'm working on, and any comments would be appreciated if you have the time; no worries if not. DanCherek (talk) 11:29, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Thanks CactiStaccingCrane, and DanCherek for invite and comments on date format. I think we've got that in okay shape now.
But I have a meta-question. I just stumbled into this peer review and recent WP:GA push on the article, when I fixed the dmy thing on the article this morning. Did not even know peer review / GA push was underway. Is this still a live review? This page is titled "archive". N2e (talk) 16:00, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Comments from RealKnockoutI will be reviewing this version for prose and other miscellaneous issues. Please let me know if you think any of my suggestions are incorrect. Thanks! Lead
"Starship is designed to be able to launch 100 metric tons (220,000 lb) to low Earth orbit, and if it is refueled with propellant via tanker Starships, it will be capable of launching that payload to higher Earth orbits, the Moon, and even Mars."
I will be expanding this list once all issues related to the lead are resolved. RealKnockout (talk) 13:22, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Quick comments by SdkbLooking at the gallery, I'm not sure if it's justified existing in a separate section. I would consider moving the two rows to existing sections, and be prepared to justify why they meet WP:GALLERY. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 07:43, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Also, I wonder why the development section is placed above the description section. Wouldn't it help the development section read more smoothly if you first explained what the thing is that's being developed? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 07:56, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
UrveSince I leaned oppose on sourcing my comments are mostly going to be focused on that. Version reviewed
I have a peer review open here if you'd like to take a look and found my comments here and at FAC helpful. Thanks, Urve (talk) 01:16, 9 October 2021 (UTC) File:We bring you Mars (9848295393).jpg contains an image of a two-dimensional creative work, which the photographer did not create. They took the photograph, but they (probably?) don't have the rights to reproduce or license the underlying art. I don't think this is usable, then. Urve (talk) 09:03, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
@Urve: Thanks a lot on your previous and this review! They really brought insights onto what the article is lacking, as well as possible improvements. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:28, 9 October 2021 (UTC) Reality checkDo you think that SpaceX Starship is suitable for FAC now? I honestly not sure if the article has been good enough yet, please soak me in cold ice water if it doesn't. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:43, 11 October 2021 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Cocoa Beach site had undue weight.
Please see [6]. The cocoa site was testing manufacturing techniques, and the only two test articles were never completed, much less "rolled out". The only things from Cocoa that might have been reused at Boca Chica were two stands. If Cocoa is to be mentioned at all, it should be as part of the description of the development of the manufacturing capability, not of the Starship itself, and it certainly should not be first sentence in the section. that is very WP:UNDUE. -Arch dude (talk) 00:04, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Should we integrate the section?
@Stonkaments: In my opinion, there is a sentence that basically talk about something positive. Shouldn't it be "Reception"? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:05, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think "Criticism and controversies" is a fair section title, since essentially all the points mentioned are criticisms. "Reception" would be more appropriate if there were a more even mix of positive and negative opinions. But I'm concerned that the text of this section is not written in from a neutral point of view. "Residents of Boca Chica Village and Brownsville" implies that most, or at least a large number of, residents feel that way, which is not supported by the references. "littered with rocket debris after failed test launches" is also not consistent with the references. One test launch produced a small amount of debris. There are a few other examples as well. Also, I think a "Criticism and controversies" section is supposed to be about widely reported or debated issues, not just a catalogue of every negative thing anyone has ever said. I think the current section may be pushing the limits in that respect. Fcrary (talk) 01:38, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- I gonna revert Stonkaments's edit then. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:43, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with the introduction of the template as the above complaints are minor and the phrases in question can modified without changing the points made. In addition, "Public reception of Starship testing campaign" gives the wrong impression of the contents of the subsection as criticism comes not only from the public but also government employees. I am changing the title to Criticism and controversies once again. QRep2020 (talk) 05:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- In my opinion, it might give undue weight to the critics as well. Also, there are a fanbase with Starship, which is unique in spaceflight. I might want to paraphrase the crticisms so that they are more consise, as well as adding a bit to the positive side. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 06:46, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with the introduction of the template as the above complaints are minor and the phrases in question can modified without changing the points made. In addition, "Public reception of Starship testing campaign" gives the wrong impression of the contents of the subsection as criticism comes not only from the public but also government employees. I am changing the title to Criticism and controversies once again. QRep2020 (talk) 05:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- I gonna revert Stonkaments's edit then. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:43, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- The rest of the entire article speaks to the details and accomplishments surrounding Starship. Surely three paragraphs in their own subsection is not extravagant. QRep2020 (talk) 19:25, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. I think this structure is fine then :) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
- Can you stop changing the name of the subsection please? It is ~96% criticism. Also, it clearly does not belong under Development but, since I know there will be fight to give it its own section, at the very least let us have it at the end of the section. QRep2020 (talk) 23:56, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think we need a 3rd opinion then. Looks like we cannot agree on where should the criticism should be placed. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 00:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- What function does this section actually serve? Its basically reporting that there are reporters doing reporting. There's very little here beyond the angles that reporters are working for their papers' interests. Sequential Rotation (talk) 07:09, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- I would like to point out that the above account has no edits beyond this Talk one and that they appear to be implying that the press are political agents, which would implicate an untold number of articles on Wikipedia. QRep2020 (talk) 14:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- What function does this section actually serve? Its basically reporting that there are reporters doing reporting. There's very little here beyond the angles that reporters are working for their papers' interests. Sequential Rotation (talk) 07:09, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think we need a 3rd opinion then. Looks like we cannot agree on where should the criticism should be placed. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 00:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Can you stop changing the name of the subsection please? It is ~96% criticism. Also, it clearly does not belong under Development but, since I know there will be fight to give it its own section, at the very least let us have it at the end of the section. QRep2020 (talk) 23:56, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. I think this structure is fine then :) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
- The rest of the entire article speaks to the details and accomplishments surrounding Starship. Surely three paragraphs in their own subsection is not extravagant. QRep2020 (talk) 19:25, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Ok, ill offer a third opinion. What are the proposed placements and names of said section? Bonewah (talk) 20:24, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Many, such as "Criticism", "Criticism and controversy", "Reception", "Public reaction", etc. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 00:09, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, WP:CSECTION says that we should avoid criticism sections in general wherever possible and instead work the criticisms into the body of the article. That same essay warns that criticisms should be limited to those recieving substantial coverage devoted to those controversies or criticisms, see WP:CORG. Looking at the section in this article at a glance, id say that the environmental concerns could probably be incorporated into the "ground infrastructure" section, along with some of the other parts of the criticism section. Frankly, a lot of the material in that section looks pretty trivial and could be cut. The stuff about highway and beach closures, speculation that its environmental impact statement *might* violate some rules, etc. Again, criticism should be substantial, important to the understanding of the subject, not just existent. Bonewah (talk) 13:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you! I will incorperating them now CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- These are essays, not policies. There are plenty of examples of entries with Criticism sections, entries that are even referenced in one of the essays. Please do not attempt to integrate them again until the discussion has ended. QRep2020 (talk) 13:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Sure, its an essay, but the point of those essays is to provide a common response to common concerns. If you feel that the essay is wrong, in this case or in general, then you should explain your thinking here. Bonewah (talk) 13:34, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- No, there is nothing to compel me to respond to a Wikipedia essay. That said, Wikipedia:Criticism states, "A section dedicated to negative material is sometimes appropriate, if the sources treat the negative material as an organic whole, and if readers would be better served by seeing all the negative material in one location." It is appropriate here and the content produced by Stonkaments et al treats the material as a whole in a concise and organized manner. In addition, here are articles that feature appropriate, well-written criticism or criticism-esque sections:
- Shareholder value
- Organizational culture
- ICANN
- Yelp - Good Article
- Tesla, Inc. - Good Article
- Besides, I argued to let it sit as a subsection, someone else moved it to section-level. QRep2020 (talk) 13:56, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- No, there is nothing to compel me to respond to a Wikipedia essay. That said, Wikipedia:Criticism states, "A section dedicated to negative material is sometimes appropriate, if the sources treat the negative material as an organic whole, and if readers would be better served by seeing all the negative material in one location." It is appropriate here and the content produced by Stonkaments et al treats the material as a whole in a concise and organized manner. In addition, here are articles that feature appropriate, well-written criticism or criticism-esque sections:
- Sure, its an essay, but the point of those essays is to provide a common response to common concerns. If you feel that the essay is wrong, in this case or in general, then you should explain your thinking here. Bonewah (talk) 13:34, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- These are essays, not policies. There are plenty of examples of entries with Criticism sections, entries that are even referenced in one of the essays. Please do not attempt to integrate them again until the discussion has ended. QRep2020 (talk) 13:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you! I will incorperating them now CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, WP:CSECTION says that we should avoid criticism sections in general wherever possible and instead work the criticisms into the body of the article. That same essay warns that criticisms should be limited to those recieving substantial coverage devoted to those controversies or criticisms, see WP:CORG. Looking at the section in this article at a glance, id say that the environmental concerns could probably be incorporated into the "ground infrastructure" section, along with some of the other parts of the criticism section. Frankly, a lot of the material in that section looks pretty trivial and could be cut. The stuff about highway and beach closures, speculation that its environmental impact statement *might* violate some rules, etc. Again, criticism should be substantial, important to the understanding of the subject, not just existent. Bonewah (talk) 13:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- I agree. However, the criticism section should be for Starship itself, such as “Starship is way too complicated for moon landing”, not for the development itself. For that, it should be inside the SpaceX South Texas launch site and briefly mentioned here. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 14:33, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Featured article candidate translusion
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 21 October 2021 [7].
- Nominator(s): CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:03, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Plaid speed!!! - Spaceballs, probably
This article is about Starship, a fully reusable rocket which is in development by SpaceX. It describes technical, operational and cultural aspect of Starship, as well as many criticisms to the vehicle and development. This article also briefly mention Starship's development history as well. It has been expanded and reformed from Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/SpaceX Starship/archive1 with a much more comprehensive Operation section, as well as criticisms to the system, and has undergone a huge peer review at Wikipedia:Peer review/SpaceX Starship/archive1. If you know how the article can be improved, please reply and I will resolve it as soon as possible. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:03, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Lean oppose by Urve
While there has been substantial movement toward high quality sourcing since the last nomination, I am still quite concerned about text-source integrity. So, unless this can be attended to (and it will take a good amount of effort), I oppose promotion on sourcing. Version reviewed, some comments may touch on prose but that's not something I can competently speak to in general
- Neither fn 5 or fn 6 support the general claim that Starship is composed of 304L stainless steel; 5 makes no mention, 6 only makes the claim for SN8
- Moved fn5 to the first sentence, change fn6 to [8] that mentions switching from 301 to 304L. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
The resultant gas quickly moves, and the engine nozzle redirects it to produce thrust. The Raptor Vacuum variant is equipped with a nozzle extension to increase its specfic impulse in the vacuum of space.
- unsourced
- Sourced! CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
Super Heavy booster's primary goal
- not stated as a primary goal in either fn 9 or fn 10; this speed has a connotation of being a limitation (not a goal?) by Musk in fn 10
- Fixed to
When launch, Super Heavy booster accelerates ...
Mach 9 speed is not a limitation, it is a boon for Super Heavy to land without shielding. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- Fixed to
- I don't know what a "sea-level optimized Raptor" is at this point, but that description is not in fn 11 or 12; 11 says up to 32, 12 says up to 33, so that much is OK
- ^ sea-level optimization is supported in a separate source so that much is fine, but what this means should be explained when the term is first introduced Urve (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
- Got it. Finding. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
The booster is topped with a stage adapter
not in fn 13 or 14; doubt it matters from a prose level, though, since we can just say they are attached and avoid the unnecessary words
- Changed to
On top of the booster, the Starship spacecraft is attached.
CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- Changed to
After separation, the Starship spacecraft will accelerate itself to orbit and perform mission tasks and objectives
- not in fn 15
- Added [9]. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
composite overwrapped pressure vessels
- not in fn 16
- Removed, no reliable source is found CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
and three for the vacuum of space
- paraphrasing of this sentence is too close to the source
- Changed to
three for vacuum operation
CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- Changed to
Positioned above are
... - don't see this description in fn 18
- Added [10] CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
On top of the tanks is the payload section houses a liquid oxygen header tank and payload
- fn 19 speaks to the header tank but the payload is not there
- Added [11]. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
In the Starship crewed variant, the payload bay will house cabins and other facilities
- not supported by fn 20, but the other sentences seem to be supported... interestingly, they also speak to using starship as a space debris cleaner, may be worthy of mention
- Added the space debris thingy and [12]. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- "aft" and "forward" are redundant because being at the top/front means aft in (space)ship terminology. unless I am missing something, which I may be. anyway, adequately supported in what I see
- Should keep it there for people who don't know what is aft and forward. They are also terms coined by SpaceX. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
The windward side of the spacecraft is covered by a heat shield made from hexagon tiles
- fn 10 just says these are being tested
- Replaced with [13].
- This brings me to a concern about article in general: Are we trying to describe the intended final version of Starship, or the several prototypes which have already launched and will continue to launch? We are mixing around descriptors -- some for the final one, some for the current one (for example, some ships have three raptors when launched, but the final design will have six, according to one of the sources) -- but there's no accompanying textual disclaimer about to which it applies
- I describes the final version of Starship as of SpaceX plan in October 2021. SpaceX is ridiculously fast, so it is hard to know what is their final design. Added a sentence for disclaimer. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- I assume good faith on fn 22 because I don't want to watch it
- Confirmed to be accurate. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- minor point:
likely to be the first site to launch Starship to orbit
- fn 28 says that it's the current plan. there may be a distinction between something being planned and something being likely (I dunno if that's the case or not); either way, suggest changing to 'planned'
- It is planned. Changed. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- fn 25 cannot support the "As of October 2021" claim because it is from January
- Changed. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- minor point: fn 34 says it has landed on drone ships, not that it might in the future - unless I miss something (didn't read it all)
- It is planned, not have landed. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
letting the booster's grid fins touch down on them
- don't know what this means (what is "them" referring to?)
- The catching arms catch the booster by letting the grid fins to touch down on them. Don't know how to phrase it though CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- didn't read "Future variants" section or beyond
I think these demonstrate the extent of my concerns, all only being in the first two subsections. I am separately concerned about criterion 1e being fulfilled with the major changes that regularly occur, often daily or several times a day. I can return later for more comments, but having to read dozens of articles and finding that many don't verify the accompanying text is difficult - it's harder to figure out what a source doesn't say than what it does. If my comments have been helpful, I have an open peer review here. Urve (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Urve: Thank you so much on reviewing the sources! It is really hard to know what is missing in the sources when you have +100 of them. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 08:00, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Oppose from Hurricane Noah
@CactiStaccingCrane: Here's two more unsourced ones I thought I should point out. Just a tip as I saw your comment above about not knowing what the sources lack, it becomes easier to know more about your sources the longer you spend working with them. I have found it's better to work more slowly on something than to try and speed through it; there are fewer mistakes that way. I always let the sources write the article and it never does me wrong. Keep in mind that others will expect you to know everything inside and out since you are the nominator. NoahTalk 03:54, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
- Looks like I should get into habit of writing the source down then :) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 06:27, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
The engine is cooled by circulating the fuel around the outside of the fuel chamber, which also preheats the mixture.
- Source added CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
Verified test articles will launch in different flight paths, depending on their objectives.
- Not unsourced, the list of test articles have flown in different path (hop, 10km flight), and this is not WP:SYNTHESIS. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- It still has to have a source at the end of the line backing it up. Regardless of what other supported text states, we can't leave other sentences unsupported. NoahTalk 12:22, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
- Not unsourced, the list of test articles have flown in different path (hop, 10km flight), and this is not WP:SYNTHESIS. CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
- The account uploading the video for FN25 is not that of a reputable expert/agency. NoahTalk 20:25, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
- There's quite a bit of relevant scholarly sources out there that aren't included. For example, I saw one related to future landing sites on Mars. NoahTalk 20:25, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
- Given the relatively recent flurry of additions and large changes (unrelated to FAC), I would say this article is unstable and fails 1e. I also see there is an ongoing dispute resolution related to content in this article, which further emphasizes that. Considering there's only 5 books and journals here and there are quite a few more with relevant content, the article does not meet 1c either. I'm not convinced this article is well-researched with the amount of scholarly research out there. I feel I have no choice but to oppose this nomination given my above reasons. NoahTalk 20:25, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
- @CactiStaccingCrane:@FAC coordinators: I am recommending this article be withdrawn until such time it is stable and there is a general consensus for what should be included in it. Considering there is currently a dispute resolution open regarding whether or not a section should exist within the article, this is far from stable. NoahTalk 23:26, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. The dispute resolution happened before this article is nominated for FAC, so I couldn't do very much at it. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 00:00, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- It seems clear that there is not a consensus to promote this article, so I am archiving the nomination to allow the areas identified to be worked on off-FAC. The usual two week hiatus will apply, but I look forward to seeing the article here again in an improved state. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:14, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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