Talk:Senkaku Islands dispute

Pinnacle Islands

A discussion thread about changing the name from Senkaku Islands to Pinnacle Islands reached no consensus at Talk:Senkaku Islands#Requested move. The name change was suggested in hopes of mitigating aspects of the long-standing territorial dispute, but other points of view were also persuasively presented. --Tenmei (talk) 19:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Merge

This article is seemingly intended to be a split of Senkaku islands rather than a new article. The original article doesn't seem to be long enough but anyway, please use a proper way to discuss a split. --Winstonlighter (talk) 20:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. Yes, this is intended as a sub-article of Senkaku Islands — addressing issues relating to the territorial dispute in detail while leaving the main article to develop in a non-controversial context.

This stub was explicitly created as a constructive response to Nihonjoe's comment here at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan#Senkaku Islands Content Split/Removal and in the context of Talk:Senkaku Islands#Discussion Regarding Content Split/Removal.

In corollary discussion threads, DXDanl suggested something promising. One phrase particularly deserves emphasis. The words imply a neutral tactic which can be adapted for use in other disputes which have not yet arisen:

"... help readers better understand what information is being disputed and what is not."

IMO, DXDanl identifies a step in a constructive direction; and I responded by posting this headnote hyperlink in the territorial dispute section of the article.

Main article: Senkaku Islands dispute

Something constructive can be achieved by refining the focus of attention. This article "jump-starts" a process of parsing conflated issues. :In addition, I see that this tactic has been used at Liancourt Rocks dispute and Spratly Islands dispute.

In language Winstonlighter used here, this article is merited as a plausible tactic to diffuse "nationalistic-driven warring" and to avert some of the harm caused by discussion threads which only "end up in a dead loop." --Tenmei (talk) 22:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment I'll get to this by Friday if no one else starts moving contents before then. I'm just working long hours this week, hence few edits. So far more people have concurred to the split; see WikiProject Japan's Talk Page, WikiProject China's Talk Page, and WikiProject Taiwan's Talk Page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DXDanl (talk • contribs) 08:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the disputed sections and the undisputed sections of the original wiki item (diaoyu/senkaku as a geographic location) needs to be separated within the item, so that reader can more easily identify the facts related to the item. but i do not think that necessarily means that a separate new item should be created, such that none of the information remain in the original item. San9663 (talk) 05:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I prefer a completely new article under the neutral title 'the Pinnacle Islands dispute' with a new structure; and it should break free from hijacking by the pro-Japanese editors as seen in the original article. STSC (talk) 19:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

This split is fairly common, including for other issues in this area. See, for example, Liancourt Rocks and Liancourt Rocks dispute, or, for a naming dispute, see Sea of Japan and Sea of Japan naming dispute.

As for the title, I do think it's about time we had a discussion about the title of both articles. First, I think it's very clear that both have to have the same name--anything else flies in the face of common sense. As for which title it should have... Qwyrxian (talk) 23:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Endorse the neutral analysis and editing strategy of Qwyrxian in this diff --Tenmei (talk) 20:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Title of this article

Personally, I think both articles should continue to use the name "Senkaku Island". Just as a quick search, Google News pulls up over 1000 hits on "Senkaku Islands," including Japanese, U.S., and international sites. On a number of the non-Japanese sites, the name Senkaku is even used without any mention of the other 2 names "Pinnacle Islands" finds only 32 hits, only 3 of which appear to be about these islands and all of which list Pinnacle Islands after the Japanese and Chinese names. Now, searches like that are only a starting point, but the fact that the results are so lopsided is a good indication of a starting point. The next question would be which name is commonly used in international reference books, like other encyclopedias, academic journals (if their are any), and atlases/maps.

The only reason I can see to change the name would be if a large proportion of the international, English sources regularly used both names, and especially if they used them with a slash between them. In that case, we could say that since the English name is widely held to be disputed, but for Wikipedia we have to choose one name, we'll use the less common but neutral "Pinnacle Islands" name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwyrxian (talk • contribs) 23:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Google search does not take into the fact that multiple spelling would refer to the same name in its original language, eg, you need to add up the search results for diaoyu/diaoyutai/tiaoyu/tiaoyutai. Nonetheless, I do not understand why one can use Liancourt for one case and not use Pinnacle for the other. I am sure Liancourt turns up in google much less frequently than either Takeshima or Dokdo. If use are going to use Senkaku here, there is no reason not to use Dokdo for the other. San9663 (talk) 04:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, the governing guideline is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). The primary question is, is there a widely used English name (note that this doesn't mean it needs to be an English word, and it may be identical to the local word--for example, we use the words Paris and Berlin, even though those aren't "English"). So, we would have to ask whether or not Pinnacle Islands is widely used. We can see that, at least in a Google News search, it is not. Even looking at an archive search, with "Pinnacle Islands" in quotation marks, I only get 15 hits, and all mentions of that follow mention of either Senkaku Islands or Senkaku Islands and some version of the Chinese spelling. So we definitely shouldn't choose Pinnacle Islands as the standard English term, because that term simply isn't used regularly in English (at least in newspapers searched by Google News; I'd like to see some other results from other places as well).

However, as I mentioned above, there is another reason why we might use Pinnacle Islands. If anyone really wants to get into the issue, I recommend reading the entire archive history of Liancourt Rocks. Well, no, I take that back, I don't recommend anyone put themselves through so much pain. But, once upon a time, I did read the whole debate (I wasn't an active editor at the time of the main debate), and the dispute there boiled down to this (in very very brief summary): 1) the islands themselves, were hardly ever mentioned in English, because the truth is that the English speaking world really didn't care very much about the Rocks except to report recent clashes over ownership. 2) In almost all cases that the islands were mentioned, both Dokdo/Tokto (the Korean name) and Takeshima were named, with no particular preference for either. 3) As such, it was shown that there really was no "standard" English name. 4) Edit warring over the name was very aggressive, involved external canvassing, and non-stop (except when protection was applied). As such, it was decided (and consensus still holds) that since there was no standard English name, and choosing either of the local names was bound to continue the edit warring, the English name was chosen as the suboptimal-but-at-least-neutral 3rd option.

So, in this case, here's my summary of the issue for this article:

1. We need to determine if any of the three names is regularly used in English more than any other, by a substantial enough margin. When doing such an analysis, we need to be careful to "ignore" counts where the article says something like "Senkaku islands, or, as known in Chinese, Diayou", since those give no information either way. We also have to account for alternate spellings in Chinese, but again, if one article says "Diayou/Taiyou/etc.", that's still only 1 mention.
2. If Pinnacle islands is regularly used more than any other, we should almost certainly choose that name. This matches the precedent for something like Florence, even though the local name is "Firenze".
3. If either Senkaku Islands or Diaoyu is regularly used more than any other name, by a large, substantial margin, we should probably choose that name. Note that this matches the precedent for Sea of Japan.
4. If Senkaku Islands or Diaoyu is used more often, but not by a large margin, or if the names are used approximately equally, we should discuss the issue, but probably go with Pinnacle Islands, in keeping with the Liancourt Rocks precedent.

Of course, no matter what we choose, we leave redirects at all of the other names. Furthermore, we make both articles conform internally to the name chosen for the article title (this is mentioned in the above referenced guideline). Does this seem like a good framing of the discussion? Does anyone want to object to the process before we actually start make observations? I would really rather establish a consensus if we can, because the problem is that if we can't, we'll eventually end up at ArbCom (like, say, with the issues surrounding Ireland). Qwyrxian (talk) 04:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

This isn't a big deal to me. But it just looks totally strange compared with the Liancout/dokdo/dokto/takeshima entry. It seems you are suggesting the fact that the final compromise of liancourt is just because there were too much edit warring, while the pro-neutral (or non-pro-japan) editors here are too civilized to do that. This seems a weird reason (though a plausible explanation) and sort of look like an unfair wiki phenomenon. San9663 (talk) 16:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I was a little unclear; the edit-warring was actually a result, not the cause, of the underlying problem--no one could establish, definitively, whether Dokdo or Takeshima was more common in English (despite lots of painful arguing about statistical analysis, search terms, etc.). So, either they were actually used about equally in English, or editors were just unable to get a solid "proof" of which one was more common. As a result, it was almost logical for the partisans to continue to push for their own name, because each side had "evidence" that their name was more common. However, the reason why I think we don't need to do that here is that I believe that, in English articles/books/etc., the term actually used is Senkaku Islands, not a mix of the two. However, if someone could show me that that isn't the case, then we could look to alternative approaches. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I believe Diaoyu and Diaoyutai are both quite commonly used in English sites and documents. Try doing a search in major search engines. Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:29, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

• Is this discussion posted taken into account the recently closed Requested move? ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The title should not be decided just by a simple "google it". Wikipedia has very detailed guidelines on using the search engines as to what hits are acceptable and what hits are not. I would also point out that across Asia except Japan, the term "Senkaku Islands" is almost unknown but Diaoyutai is instantly recognisable. STSC (talk) 08:55, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I did not mean a simple search; this is why I started with Google News (current and archive) search, and meant it only as a start. We want to know what reliable sources use, not what joe random blogger (who's undoubtedly partisan one way or the other) uses. I'm particularly interested in what English maps and encyclopedias use. As to your (STSC's) comment about "across Asia", I have to issues: 1) How did you determine that one is almost unknown while the other is "instantly recognizable"? Do you have any evidence for that? I don't doubt that you believe it to be true, but, of course, we need actual evidence. 2) When you said "across Asia," did you mean "across Asia in English-language media?" Because, as far as en.wiki is concerned, only the English name matters when choosing the title. This is exactly like how our article on the city in Italy is called Florence, despite the fact that the local (Italian) name is Firenze (which redirects to Florence). Qwyrxian (talk) 23:44, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to copy and paste this over to Talk:Senkaku Islands#Controversy and Request for change of name. I think it makes more sense to discuss this over there, since that's the "main" article, and theoretically the one that would acquire more eyes. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Rare earth metals

どうぞ:

• Oct 12, 2010, Japan, China to set up liaison system, Taipei Times

Quote: "Industry observers said a ban on exports of rare earth minerals to Japan remain, despite Chinese officials’ insistence that they had never stopped shipments... Separately, Chinese customs officials continued to prohibit all exports of rare earth minerals to Japan over the weekend, industry officials said, but the Chinese government showed signs of taking a more conciliatory stance toward Japan... Chinese Commerce Minister Chen Deming (陳德銘) suggested instead in a television interview on Sept. 26 that Chinese entrepreneurs in the rare earth industry might have halted shipments because of their own feelings toward Japan... Thirty-two companies in China have export licenses for rare earth minerals, and 10 of them are foreign. Chen did not address why the 10 foreign companies would have strong feelings toward Japan, or why all companies in the Chinese industry halted shipments on the same day, Sept. 21." Would it be possible that the point earlier removed regarding the export ban be added again, but reworded to take into account this newer information? Yes, China denies such export bans from taking place, but that doesn't explain why rare earth metals aren't making their way into Japan. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I think this shouldn't go into the article, not because of source, but because of WP:RECENTISM. The blocking of rare earth metals just isn't part of the "long term" story of the Senkaku Island dispute. If the issue is ongoing, it may be part of the greater Japan-China relations story, but it's only tangentially connected to disputed ownership of the Islands. In fact, I would argue that a lot of the recent history section should be simplified and summarized; right now it's not so important, but I'm hoping that once we can get past the more fundamental problems, that we can convert the timeline chronology into prose per normal article style. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:22, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it is too early to explain the 'rare earth' controversy. maybe we could simply quote the publicly known facts, e.g. rumour and china's officially denial (including from Wen). as to Lee's question of explanation, there are many plausible explanation for why the export was delayed, eg, it could be due to a general delay in all exports. see this FYI (not for the wiki though) http://agmetalminer.com/2010/10/01/clarifying-western-media-accounts-of-%E2%80%9Cchina-rare-earth-metal-ban%E2%80%9D/ San9663 (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

No, my point is that even if China actually stopped the rare earth shipments, it was because of Japan holding one of their citizens (for what Japan said are legal reasons and China says were not). Thus, it's not about it being too early, it's that it doesn't belong in the article at all. It only seems related and important because it's so recent. That information could be discussed, maybe, in Japan-China relations, but it isn't closely enough connected to the Islands dispute to belong here. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

That sounds ok for me. Note that even in the original NYT report, it mentioned blocking of unprocessed rare earth oxides, salt and pure metals. "Semi-processed alloys" were explicitly described as "not blocked". This adds doubts to whether this is something effective (and hence intentional). The more likely explanation seems to be there are poeple who tried to capitalize on this opportunity in metal price speculation, either the business owner in China or those trying to raise fund to mine in US.San9663 (talk) 11:44, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Dubious addition

I removed this edit by Bobthefish2. Becasue the images used in ref pages are not relevant to the 10/02 protest. For instance, the third image is cleary not the 10/02 protest. You can see the sign says "天皇制もヤスクニもいらない". It means "We don't need the Imperial system nor Yasukuni". The name of the right wing group is "義進？？会". See the third image. They are not the conservative groups joined in the 10/02 protest. There's no signs which say "Senkaku" or "anti-China" in any of the images in ref. pages. All images look like a different protest. Four of the ref. pages the user used are in Chinese. And this one has nothing to do with Senkaku. The user's addition consisted of several pieces of information with dubious ref. pages and misleading. Please do not use Chinese news as source when there are sources in English. I also reverted this edit. Because Okinawa is is considered a synonym of Ryukyu. See Ryukyu Islands. Oda Mari (talk) 09:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I would strongly advise you to first discuss your disagreements before reverting someone else's work. I often do that before I delete other people's work and I expect the same from you. Now, I've reverted your reverts and I'd like the contents to stay until we've talked this through.

Now, here are some points:

(1) The date I put in my entry was October, 2010 and not October 2, 2010.

(2) There are many Japanese protests regarding this matter since the start of October, 2010.

(3) The reference pages are news reports and the images posted are presumably snapshots of the events. It is not necessary for photos with "Senkaku Islands" as a slogan to be included. If you happen to question the authenticities of the photos, then that's a different matter for a different discussion.

(4) If you happen to think any of the protesting groups are not right-winged at all, then we can change their labels to... say "political groups"

(5) If you happen to think some of the slogans in the figures are significant but not included, then they can be added

(6) Chinese news sources are often more informative in East Asian matters and thus equivalents are not necessarily existent in say... Globe and Mail, BBC, or other Western media.

(7) The article about nuclear weapon referenced Okinawa, which it is what the Japanese considered as the prefecture that encompassed "Senkaku Islands". You can delude yourself into thinking it is independent of the events relating to the islands.

(8) The Remin Ribao article talked about Ryukyu Islands (琉球諸島) and not Okinawa Prefecture (沖縄県). And of course, here's a quote from the Ryukyu Islands: "The islands are administratively divided into the Satsunan Islands to the north, belonging to Kagoshima Prefecture, and Ryūkyū Shotō to the south, belonging to Okinawa Prefecture, Japan".

Bobthefish2 (talk) 16:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted the edit again, on principle. Please read WP:BOLD and WP:BRD. If another editor reverts your edit, do not make the edit again without getting consensus. Otherwise you are edit warring and may be blocked. Please discuss the issue with other editors until there is agreement. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't really care if you cite WP:BRD and WP:BOLD. They aren't required procedures and aren't the only ways of keeping things in order. However, if you feel that strongly about leaving my content deleted until the end of discussion - fine, I'll be a gentleman and leave it this way for now... Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the description itself is unnecessary even if it is properly cited. (Although I agree with Oda Mari) There is already a description about the anti-Chinese protest. "2 October 2010: Large scale anti-Chinese protests occurred in Tokyo and six other cities in Japan". The addition is only intended to make a bad impressions of Japanese by bringing up nazi-era swastika irrelevant to this dispute. Historical events section is already cluttered with so many trivial events. There is no reason to further clutter this section with the trivial event.

As for the Ryukyu and Okinawa issue, please see the source.

"To make matters worse, when on January 8, 1953, Renmin Ribao [People's Daily], the official propaganda organ for the Communist Party, criticized the occupation of Rukyu Islands(or Okinawa Prefecture) by the United States, it stated that "the Ryukyu Islands are located northeast of our Taiwan Islands...including Senkaku Shoto. According to this statement, the PRC recognized that the Diaoyu (J:Senkaku) Islands were a part of Liuqiu Islands (or Okinawa Prefecture). In other words, the Diaoyu Islands belonged neither to Taiwan nor to mainland China, but to Japan."

It unambiguously states Rukyu Islands(or Okinawa Prefecture) twice. Please refrain from insisting the original research. Even if Ryukyu Islands include a part of Kagoshima, it depends on the context of the story. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:55, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

These events are relevant to this dispute because they constitute the reaction of certain population groups towards the dispute at one point. If they portray the Japanese in a negative way, then it is not intended, as the sources I cited are legitimate and were simply reporting observations. Again, if you have any concerns about their reliability, then that's a different matter and I would expect some good research to be done to defend such allegations.

Your other point ties directly to one of the reverts you've done in which you've failed to justify. To reiterate, the Japanese source cited is definitely mis-interpreting the Remin Ribao article because this is what the Remin Ribao article said:

"琉球群岛散布在我国台湾东北和日本九洲岛西南之间的海面上，包括尖阁诸岛、先岛诸岛、大东诸岛、冲绳诸岛、大岛诸岛、土噶喇诸岛、大隅诸岛等七组岛屿，每组都有许多大小岛."

which translates to:

"Ryukyu Islands are distributed between our nation's Taiwan's northeast and Japan's southwest, including 尖阁诸岛、先岛诸岛、大东诸岛、冲绳诸岛 (Okinawa Islands)、大岛诸岛、土噶喇诸岛、大隅诸岛."

For the rest of the article, Okinawa was only mentioned as Okinawa Islands (which is different to Okinawa Prefecture). Since you are Japanese and thus are familiar with Chinese characters, I trust you can validate that yourself. If not, then you can ask Chinese editors like Winstonlighter or San9663 to confirm.

In the future, I'd appreciate it if you would get to know the context of an argument before butting your head in. Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:02, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I can confirm the literal translation is correct. To be more precise, literally, it reads, ""Ryukyu Islands are scattered on the sea between our nation's Taiwan's northeast and Japan's Kyushu's southwest, including 尖阁诸岛、先岛诸岛、大东诸岛、冲绳诸岛 (Okinawa Islands)、大岛诸岛、土噶喇诸岛、大隅诸岛."". To reach a compromise, maybe one solution is to quote the exact lines printed and let the readers to interpret? San9663 (talk) 03:54, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I think two of those islands are not even a part of Okinawa. The paper, if you've seen the complete, original edition, was referring to the United States Civil Administration of the Ryukyu Islands and why the native population (formerly the Ryuku Kingdom, which also spans more than Okinawa) was protesting against U.S. military operations. We probably have an academic author who couldn't read his primary source and didn't check with English sources either. Sigh.99.99.146.104 (talk) 06:24, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The Chinese news source was clearly forged by the Chinese media. As Oda Mari pointed out, the placards in this picture say "We need neither the Imperial system nor Yasukuni" and "demolish Yasukuni" in front of Mizuho Bank Kudan branch[1] near the Yasukuni Shrine. This picture was taken in front of ニュー九段ビル (New Kudan Building)[2] near the Yasukuni Shrine. The demonstration is held by the left-wing organization "Yasukuni Shrine Demolition Enterprise" on August 15 every year. The extreme right-wing activists were not participating in the demonstration but protesting it. This picture shows the policemen are surrounding the activist to prevent him assault the demonstration.

How does the demonstration holding the placards saying "We need neither the Imperial system nor Yasukuni" and "demolish Yasukuni" near the Yasukuni Shrine become the anti-Chinese demonstration? ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:06, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

We saw these pictures in a few places (the guys in blue 'uniform' with nazi emblem on the right arm and Japanese flag on the left) in Chinese media recently, but not in Main Stream Media as I can recall. If they are indeed from another protest at another time, I suggest you guys (or someone) document them and put the analysis in some website or blog, e.g. annotate each picture with its actual location to show that they were indeed taken on the same day (of another protest). IMHO (if you guys are right) rumours like these do not help the peace between the two countries or understanding between the two people. （this site has a lot more pictures -- http://www.maoflag.net/?action-viewthread-tid-1469202） San9663 (talk) 09:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I also did a detective work. This ref. Bobthefish2 used says "According to...BBC in Chinese..." and this is the BBC page. BBC doesn't use the images of men in dark blue uniform. BBC images are similar to those of the WSJ and CNN used. Where are the images of men in dark blue uniform from? I found out where two of the images were taken. See the third image. You can see "MIZUHO みずほ銀行". The name of the building is Kudan Fuji Building (九段富士ビル). See[3] and [4]. See the second image. You can see "ニュー九段ビル" at the top right. It's the name of the building. See [5], [6] and [7]. See also the map that there are a bridge and an elevated express way. Kudan is the place where Yasukuni shrine lies and Shibuya is not a neighboring area. The images used by Chinese media indicate Kudan and Yasukuni. They are definitely not the images of the 10/02 protest at Shibuya, Aoyama, and Harajyuku. They were probably taken on August 15. Because I found an image of one of the right wing men. See the third image. I phoned Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department Public Security Bureau and was told the Shibuya protest was the only one rally in Tokyo on October 2 and there was no protests at Kudan on that day. The Chinese news Bobthefish2 used as the ref. are clealy a good example of fabricated anti-Japan propaganda news reports. Bobthefish2, why did you use them as the sources, instead of using BBC? Please answer my question. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 10:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

If you can prove beyond a doubt that these are definitely not pictures of protests that occurred in October 2010, then I will agree that the swastika part and associated references can be taken off.

I am also a bit puzzled that the source cited BBC, but then it also didn't say the pictures had to come from BBC. According to a few other pictures I've seen elsewhere, there are people with similar uniforms in protest pictures from other sources. Whether or not they are of the same group is not something I can verify. The pictures that you alleged to be forged can be found everywhere on the internet. Even a few major Chinese news outlet (i.e. TVB) used them in their reports.

By the way, you still have not replied to the rest of the issues I've pointed out. I know you are angry about the pictures (whether they be real or not), but they are only one of the contested issues. If you have such a conviction to call your local police department, then certainly you can applied the same for other disputed elements... say whether or not you've erred in the choice of your own sources regarding the Remin Ribao article. Bobthefish2 (talk) 11:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Oda San, It is no use pointing fingers. We saw mis-use of photos from CNN in the past. Exaggeration and wrong photos have been seen in many main stream media. Someone told me that they saw these photos from certain major TV stations in Hong Kong. So I do think Bobthefish actually believed what he read. The fault should be with the reporter or the manager of that website if what you said is true. We still do not have a clear cut conclusion yet. What we need to establish is whether this is indeed fabricated. I think the more useful evidence, if you can find, should be the report where these photos were originally published, Aug 15 near Yasukuni you said? There must be reports then. It should not be too difficult to locate if you search the .jp domains? since some of you have suggested the date and occasion. (BTW, They seem to be wearing a lot considering the temperature in August) San9663 (talk) 11:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, we even saw much worse forms of reference misuse by him and company in this very page. But now, he suddenly thinks its a sin when another editor innocently cited sources that he alleged to be dubious. Bobthefish2 (talk) 11:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Answers to Bobthefish2's points.
(1) This Chinese source clearly says, "...日本幾個右翼組織周六（10月2日）在全國多個城市發起了一個叫作“譴責中國侵略尖閣諸島全國國民統一行動”的示威。", it's October 2.
(2) Yes, but the main topic of the news was the 10/02 protest at Shibuya in the Chinese source. There's no details about other protests regarding Senkaku from October 1.
(3) This article is about Senkaku. Images of Yasukuni protesters and that right-winged group are inappropriate. I don't understand why China news review use irrelevant images in the protest at Shibuya. As for cnwest, the article says "...东京有约有800人参加集会，他们手持日本国旗...", but nobody holds up the flag of Japan in the images. The problem is the images are irrelevant to the protest at Shibuya article.
(4) I do not know exactly who they are. A right-winged group, maybe. But they are not protesting Senkaku.
(5) I don't understand what you mean. They are not the Senkaku protest images.
(6) I don't think so. Western media is more neutral and more reliable on this kind of news.
(7) Ishihara is a talkative old man. He is a governor and he doesn't take part in the conduct of State affairs. And he talks about national defense. It's a trivia.
(8) See this. Page 82 and 154.
I'm not angry. I am laughing at the Chinese propaganda. And I'm not pointing fingers. I created this thread and wrote why I thought the sources were dubious, but Bobthefish2 didn't post his claims before restoring his edit. So I was curious and wondered why did he think the sources were reliable. If anyone of you thinks the Chinese sources and their images are reliable, please refute my points and prove the sources are telling the truth. Oda Mari (talk) 16:52, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

(1) Alright, if it is October 2, then can you tell me what "在全國多個城市" means? I am willing to give you the benefit of doubting the authenticity of these images, but can you prove to me that these pictures do not belong to any of the protests in those 多個城市? If my memory serves, some articles claimed there are more than 10 cities that had protests.

(2) I don't see any contradictions.

(3) Considering the size of these articles, I highly doubt it is necessary to have images accompanied with each and every sentence. Now, let's see...

This article wrote "东京有约有800人参加集会". Picture showing all 800 people? No.

This article wrote "除了東京以外，周六在名古屋也有集會". Picture of 名古屋's 集會? No.

This article wrote "這次行動是由「加油日本、全國行動委員會」、「草莽全國地方議員會」、「日本李登輝之友會」、「台灣研究論壇」四個組織合作主辦". Picture of 「加油日本、全國行動委員會」、「草莽全國地方議員會」、「日本李登輝之友會」、「台灣研究論壇」? No.

Now, let's take a look at BBC's article...

This article wrote "东京有约有800人参加集会". Picture showing all 800 people? No.

This article wrote "除了東京以外，周六在名古屋也有集會". Picture of 名古屋's 集會? No.

This article wrote "這次行動是由「加油日本、全國行動委員會」、「草莽全國地方議員會」、「日本李登輝之友會」、「台灣研究論壇」四個組織合作主辦". Picture of 「加油日本、全國行動委員會」、「草莽全國地方議員會」、「日本李登輝之友會」、「台灣研究論壇」? No.

(4) Again, you'll have to prove your point. I am not saying you are necessarily wrong, but you know how these things work right?

(5) Again, you'll have to prove your point. I am not saying you are necessarily wrong, but you know how these things work right?

(6) This, you are definitely wrong, especially when it comes to news that involve countries that the West do not like.

(7) It doesn't change what he said.

(8) Your persistence on this matter escapes my comprehension, since this matter has little room for further disagreement. But since you still somehow are unable to understand the issue, here's a very very simple summary:

Remin Ribao figure said the disputed land was part of Ryukyu islands

Remin Ribao figure did not say the disputed land was part of Okinawa islands

Ryukyu islands != Okinawa Prefecture

I hope I don't need the repeat myself further.

Now, as to your link... I hope you can realize that whatever it said would not change the contents of the Remin Ribao article.

At the same time, if you want to reinforce your argument with the Remin Ribao article based on the interpretation of the contents of that link, then you are engaging in a different form of activity... namely committing this horrible sin of WP:SYN that you so adamantly wanted me to educate myself about. However, to respond to this irrelevant point of your's, my comment would be to look up the date of Ryukyu Island's annexation and the end of the first Sino-Japanese War.

To respond to your last comment, I'd remind you that contents of these reports are widely distributed. I saw very similar things on TVB and a few other relatively prominent Chinese news outlet. If you provide good evidence to prove that they are fake, then I will agree with you (as stated earlier). After all, I am a reasonable and fair person who doesn't selectively turn off my sense of logic for the sake of winning an argument.

With that said, I hope you will not forget that the swastika phrase is only a small part of what you've deleted. This is what you've removed:

A rise of extreme right sentiment was reported following the release of the Chinese boat captain. Disaffected Japanese citizens were spotted assaulting the Chinese consulate in Japan with smoke bombs, intimidating Chinese tourists, shouting xenophobic slogans, and wearing nazi-era swastika. Right-wing Japanese politicians also called for the development of nuclear weapons as a defense against China. Thus far, you haven't convinced me that the rest of these known matters warrant deletion. Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

In view of the challenges regarding the photos of the swatiska sign, for the moment can we change it to this -- "A rise of extreme right sentiment (better called irredentism in the right wing?) was reported following the release of the Chinese boat captain. Disaffected Japanese citizens were spotted assaulting the Chinese consulate in Japan with smoke bombs, intimidating Chinese tourists, shouting xenophobic slogans. Right-wing Japanese politicians SUCH AS ISHIHARA also called for the development of nuclear weapons as a defense against China". If needed, can also add that the Japanese government has tried to maintain order and this is by no means the act of the majority of the people in Japan or something to that effect. San9663 (talk) 05:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree. If the swastika photos are indeed artifacts, then we can simply remove the phrase "wearing nazi-era swastikas" and keep everything else. However, your proposed last sentence should not be added, since "by no means the act of the majority" violated WP:SYN unless a newspaper article explicitly said that and "government tried to maintain order" is basically a given. On the other hand, "orderly protests" can be used since it was already mentioned in some articles. Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

The reason that Chinese sources are unreliable and inappropriate and should not be used is simply because they use irrelevant images in their article. The men in dark blue uniform with swastika do not protest China, but they protest and obstruct the left-winged people's demonstration against the emperor system and Yasukuni. I think I proved it in my past posts above. I do not know about other cities' protest. If you have doubts about the images, it's you to prove they are not the images of Shibuya as I did to the images used by Chinese sources. The assault of the Chinese consulate and the obstruction to buses with Chinese tourists are facts. But they are separate protests. If you wanted to put them into the article, you should have treated them separately with separate entries. But IMHO, this is not an article about Senkaku protests and Wikipedia is not a news story. Putting all the protests in the events is not appropriate. It would make the events list endlessly long. So the consulate and the bus incidents should not be included. "Right-wing Japanese politicians" ? Who? I cannot find other politicians' name in the source. Please do not modify the content of the source. Again, this is a trivia. Japanese government do not think and talk about having atomic bombs. The images the WSJ, CNN, and BBC are similar. Why do you you think the Chinese sources use images of different kind? I still don't know why you choose China Review News over BBC. The article body is the same, CRN omitted the last paragraph of BBC article though. The difference between two articles is the headline and the images. CRN's headline is "Japanese right-wing's anti-China demonstrators showed the Nazi symbol". As I wrote above, the men in uniform are not anti-China demonstrators. The headline is totally wrong. Western sources are reliable third party sources regarding the 10/02 Shibuya protest. China is not. If you think those Western sources are not reliable, you prove first they are not. And this is en Wikipedia. Sources in English is more preferable. The comments above are the answers to your questions regarding the Chinese sources. As for Okinawa, I simply thought your remove was meaningless. That's all. If you cannot accept my points, ask other editors whether the Chinese sources are reliable or not at here. Oda Mari (talk) 09:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Not that I'd necessarily contest your belief on the photos, but that still doesn't convincingly argue that the images did not take place in one of the protests. Repeating yourself over and over again on things other have already suggested is unproductive and makes things circular. I respect your devotion to your people, but we need evidence. As San9663 and I suggested, go find instances of those images that occur before October 2010. If you managed to locate one instance of that, then that's convincing evidence.

To reply to your second point, disputes and reactions are commonly occur in the same page. Try to look up pages on other disputes. There's a reason that these things are found together...

Whether or not protests and reactions should be included in the historical events section is up for debate. These elements definitely belong to this page but they can also be relocated to "Japanese Reaction" and "Chinese Reaction". On the other hand, if we relocate these mentionings to separate categories, we lose the benefit of listing them together in a single time-line.

The atomic-weapon article mentioned one politician. I guess you'd want that to be changed to singular? That's fine.

I didn't say Western sources are necessarily unreliable, but I named examples to show you that they (i.e. CNN, BBC) are known to doctor images in their articles occasionally. And of course, this is simply in response to your generalization that Western media are more reliable than Asian media. It's a simple point that's very easy to understand.

I deleted the reference to the Japanese prefecture of Okinawa because it was non-existent in the reference figure. I don't see why it is meaningless... except in the sense that you may pretend you didn't see my points and proceed to re-introduce the reference to Okinawa again (which, sadly, seems to be quite plausible).

Anyhow, there's a purpose for me to suddenly add in a paragraph that contains contents that are obviously do not portray the Japanese in a positive light. While whatever I added are not necessarily wrong or unfounded, this does allow an opportunity to observe how certain editors would react. Would they assess the contents objectively or would they ferociously contest certain issues while utilizing a lazy standard of logic for others? From the numerous exchanges that have already occurred, the results of this is clear. While I certainly do not expect pro-Japanese editors to share my sentiment (especially given what I saw), I do hope there are others (especially those whose attempts of achieving neutrality were frequently frustrated by reverts/edits that border on vandalism quality) that can clearly see the degree of double standards being applied. Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:53, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've only followed this in passing, but if the Chinese article uses pictures that do not match the event, then the source is not reliable. We can't engage in OR in the article, but we can use OR to determine if a source is reliable or not--in fact, that's what we do all the time. When we say "That paper isn't reliable because they routinely print biased content without regard to facts" or "That website isn't reliable because there is no fact checking and any "reporter" can write anything they want," well, that's OR. We don't need a source to prove that something is not reliable--we need an editorial judgment. I don't understand how a source that takes a picture from one event and attributes it to can be considered a reliable source. But it seems like Bobthefish2 is confusing what OR means--our work in judging what goes into an article isn't OR; it's the things in the article itself can't be OR. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, I recommend you to re-read my comments. There are numerous elements that Oda Mari contested and the photos are only one of them. I referenced OR for the Remin Ribao issue and not the photos issue. 'This discussion will not go anywhere if one group of people decide to consistently ignore and misread contents that do not serve their POV. Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:07, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

This article is not a textbook of mathematics and the sentence is not a mathematical equation. An author has a privilege to insert his/her own interpretation in the parenthesis. If Okinawa is important in the context (actually it is) and Kagoshima is not, then the author will ignore Kagoshima and insert Okinawa inside the parenthesis. See all these books using "Ryukyu Islands (Okinawa)". [8][9][10][11][12][13]

May I add these books as a references to the sentence?

Insisting the "exactly the same definition" is your original research and a nonsense. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 21:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't make a difference at all. Here, let me copy and paste what I said some posts ago:

Remin Ribao figure said the disputed land was part of Ryukyu islands

Remin Ribao figure did not say the disputed land was part of Okinawa islands

Ryukyu islands != Okinawa Prefecture

Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:35, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Introductory section controlled and administered by Japan since 1895??

This isn't quite right, is it? Between 1945 and 1972 it was not. San9663 (talk) 16:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The phrase which was questioned is now re-worded. Also, please note that inline citations from a reliable source are restored. An overview published by the Netherlands Institute for the Law of the Sea (NILOS) is useful in establishing context. These few sentences are intended to anchor the introductory section as a neutral, non-controversial context. The inline hyperlinks offer balanced restatements of contrasting points of view. --Tenmei (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Further edits by San9663 introduced controversial statements in the scrupulously neutral introduction. These edits were mitigated somewhat by Qwyrxian here; and I endorse the moderate views expressed in that edit summary.

There is no objection to the citation supported sentences which San9663 added -- only to their positioning in this crucial section?

My tentative strategy is to emphasize a neutral exposition in this section while re-locating any and all controversial sentences within the context of an identified non-neutral argumentative section?

Does this seem likely to help us move towards consensus? If not, why not? --Tenmei (talk) 04:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I tagged them because the actual sources are primary--first-hand letters authored by Japanese and Chinese government representatives. They were compiled by the U.N. and later the NILOS publisher, but they're still primary sources and shouldn't be used for synthesis.DXDanl (talk) 06:06, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

DXDanl -- I don't understand; or perhaps I disagree in this context only. If I am wrong, please help me discover what I have misunderstood.

In this introduction section, the disputants are identified with links to non-neutral, overview statements (or arguments) by each government. As a starting point for examining the dispute which has evolved over the course of decades, these explicit sources would seem best -- not disfavored as they might be in another context?

Yes? If not, why not?--Tenmei (talk) 06:20, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I had no opinion regarding the current intro. Maybe I should have added my comment elsewhere ... but I just wanted to explain why I tagged reference number 1 and 3, in case anyone was wondering; I'm not sure who removed those tags. I looked the sources up, and all I know for now is that they're primary sources. Using them usually constitutes original research. There are probably equivalent, if not better, secondary sources, perhaps even a few in the main article on the islands? Otherwise, please continue with your original discussion.DXDanl (talk) 06:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this section should try to be neutral. So let's start with something we can all agreed to. In the original description it seems to be biased to the Japanese POV. i.e. "the world started in 1885 or 1895". So either we defer everything which may be POV-related to the dispute section, or just list all the "facts" side by side -- which means start with the general acknowledged facts since 1500s or 1600s. Or qualify claims with the word "claim" -- which was what I tried to do. I think either way would work. San9663 (talk) 08:33, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It now said that, "Japan asserts that, notwithstanding the years of American oversight, these small islands are effectively controlled and administered as part of Japan." I know there is some source, and I usually have no objection as long as one is clear in identifying 'assert/claim' from 'agreed facts'. but it must be an extremely controversial assertion. How can it be "effectively controlled and administered by Japan" if it is at the same time "effectively controlled and administered by US" and we know there has not been shared administration. The NLOS source is entirely a letter from the Japanese Representative to the UN. I would move this to Japan's argument. San9663 (talk) 17:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

What is "neutral"?

We cannot accept the set of nested premises in San9663 diffs here and here.

San9663 agrees "that this section should try to be neutral"; however, the related edits in the article are over-reaching.

The timely comments in this thread do help to explain the rationale which informed San9663's decision-making.

One sentence is pivotal — San9663 proposes, "So let's start with something we can all agree to."

This definition of "neutral" needs tweaking. San9663 version here offers only a Chinese restatement of this dispute, and it is supported only by Chinese published statements. The bold revision is unbalanced.

The restored four sentences may not be best, but they are defensible.

A. Several non-argumentatives or declarative sentences explain the dispute from the perspective of each of the disputants. In other words, the neutral goal is to simply state:

(a) this is the PRC point of view as explained by the PRC + citation support = NILOS appendix, PRC summary presented to UN

(b) this is the ROC position as defined by the ROC + citation support = IBRU text citing ROC official record

Sentence #1: The Senkaku Islands dispute, also known as the Diaoyutai Islands dispute or the Pinnacle Islands dispute concerns a group of uninhabited islands which have been claimed by both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan) since 1971.

(c) this is the Japanese analysis as presented by Japan + citation support = NILOS appendix, Japanese summary presented to UN

Sentence #3: Japan asserts that, notwithstanding the years of American oversight, these small islands are effectively controlled and administered as part of Japan.

B. The quibble about the years of American occupation is a non-issue or a red herring, but acknowledging others who may similarly fixate on this aspect of the 20th century history of the islands, a short sentence is included +

Sentence #2: The United States occupied the Senkaku islands from 1945 to 1972.

C. In light of some of the simplistic claims which are encompassed in the chronology which was imported from Senkaku Islands, a mild overview sentence summarizes the complexities in the history, issues and consequences as sketched in a presumptively neutral reliable source + citation support = recent New York Times news story

Sentence #4: The controversial diplomatic issues of sovereignty are marked by a complex array of economic and political considerations and consequences.

Is this detail of explanation necessary? --Tenmei (talk) 19:29, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I inserted the phrase "controlled by Japan" and claimed by PRC/ROC. So that the current situation is well described and factual. But you reverted it and made the paragraph contain only PRC/ROC claim! If you want to include the controversial Japanese assertion that it controlled the islands in 1945-1972, which is just beyond any logic, there are many assertions such as the PRC claims that it controlled it all those time before 1895. Otherwise, NILOS view should just say, PRC claims it and Japan also claims it. This would be neutral. San9663 (talk) 00:49, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Parsing argument content — acknowledging categories of constructive comments:
* Refuting the Central Point
* Refutation
* Counterargument
____________
Identifying remarks which are unhelpful:
* Contradiction
* Responding to Tone
* Ad Hominem

San9663's edit here was reverted because it is non-neutral. In other words,

• this re-wording ≠ Japan's POV

This "undo" edit is consistent with the very explicit explanation above. San9663's diff above was primarily contradiction. It is non-responsive; as was the reverted edit. In other words,

• mere contradiction ≠ Refutation
• mere contradiction ≠ Counterargument

The graphic chart at the right informs and illustrates my thinking in this context.

For redundant emphasis, this very narrowly drawn thread focuses exclusively on the content of the initial section -- not the broader and more prickly subject of this article. I construe this thread to be addressing four related sentences. --Tenmei (talk) 19:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Tenmei, I will file a complain if you keep reverting even reasonable edits. This is the last warning. (1) IF you are proposing this is Japn POV, it should belong to the Japan POV section. (2) The beginning introdcution should be only objective mention of a list of facts. San9663 (talk) 02:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Please try again. Your sentences are only premises or propositions without supporting follow-up. They comprise a set of undemonstrated hypotheticals. In other words,

• mere complaint ≠ Refutation
• mere complaint ≠ Counterargument

There are only four sentences in the introduction. Perhaps it will help if you re-visit these elements of the introduction collectively and then serially? --Tenmei (talk) 17:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

"Also known as the x dispute"

I couldn't find any major newsoutlet - or indeed any notable sites - that use the terminology "Pinnacle Islands dispute", so I removed it. People can read on the alternative name for the islands on its main page. Also, is the dispute commonly known as the "Diaoyutai Islands dispute" in many places? John Smith's (talk) 22:54, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

If people want to keep the alternate names, the sensible thing is to refer to the title of the article, link to the islands page and then have the alternative names in brackets. I've tried to impliment this. John Smith's (talk) 23:02, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Endorse the neutral analysis and editing strategy of John Smith's in this diff --Tenmei (talk) 20:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

No, since this is a controversial entry and the names are part of the controversy. They should be displayed side by side. Pushing for one name and hiding the other names are POV. Indeed, it is known by "Diaoyutai dispute" or even Diaoyudao dispute in many places. Even in NYT and CNN the names are listed side by side or with a slash. San9663 (talk) 01:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, it is a thinly-veiled act of POV pushing for favouring the naming of one side -> WP:WRW. Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You're missing the point. The article previously said "also known as the ......... dispute". I could not find any news outlets that used the terminology "Pinnacle Islands dispute". Whether you like the name "senkaku" or not is irrelevant. You can't invent terms like "pinnacle islands dispute" if it's not in common use. John Smith's (talk) 22:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

That's not what I said. Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to revolve the "title/principal name controversy"

There has always been controversy as to whether this entry (and the related geography entry, where I also posted this note tosolocit feedback) should be named senkaku or diaoyu or pinnacles, or senkaku/diaoyu or diaoyutai/senkaku, etc. One way to resolve the controversy is to rely on some external and neutral verdict. Unfortunately there is no ICJ ruling yet, while many editors here pointed to google.

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_590598.html Recently, there is a dispute filed on google earth, and the verdict is not out yet (link above). Can we agree to use whatever name google will finally decide on? i.e. if it will drop the "diaoyu" name and call it "senkaku" alone that is what this entry will be named, and if it decides to call it senkaku/diaoyu then this entry should be named so.

None of us knows how google will decide at this moment, so if we could agree on this before the verdict is out, this should be NPOV decision. San9663 (talk) 05:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's keep this discussion over on the other page (Senkaku Islands), otherwise we'll have to respond in both places. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:22, 14 October 2010 (UTC)