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→‎Malaysia Airlines Flight 17: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter: Hat outgoing arbs comments and leave clerk note for clarity. Bold provisional declines as they are now arbs. Update tally based on that.
→‎Malaysia Airlines Flight 17: Removing declined request for arbitration
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<!-- PLEASE PLACE NEW CASE REQUESTS BELOW THIS LINE -->
<!-- PLEASE PLACE NEW CASE REQUESTS BELOW THIS LINE -->
== Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 ==
'''Initiated by ''' [[User:RGloucester|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">RGloucester </span>]] — [[User talk:RGloucester|☎]] '''at''' 05:52, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Involved parties ===
<!-- Please change "userlinks" to "admin" if the party is an administrator -->
*{{userlinks|RGloucester}}, ''filing party''
*{{userlinks|SaintAviator}}
*{{userlinks|Volunteer Marek}}
*{{userlinks|USchick}}
*{{userlinks|Herzen}}
*{{userlinks|My very best wishes}}
*{{userlinks|Arnoutf}}
*{{userlinks|Stickee}}
*{{userlinks|Sayerslle}}
*{{userlinks|Tlsandy}}
<!-- The editor filing the case will automatically be included as a party for purposes of notifications. -->

;Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SaintAviator&diff=639147861&oldid=632349628
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:USchick&diff=639147914&oldid=639056943
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Herzen&diff=639147922&oldid=638737749
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:My_very_best_wishes&diff=639147927&oldid=639146062
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Arnoutf&diff=639147941&oldid=638847898
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Volunteer_Marek&diff=639147899&oldid=639039066
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stickee&diff=639148332&oldid=638421344
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Guy_Macon&diff=639148256&oldid=639138984
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tlsandy&diff=639243647&oldid=637044527

;Confirmation that other steps in [[Wikipedia:dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] have been tried
<!-- Identify prior attempts at dispute resolution here, with links/diffs to the page where the resolution took place. If prior dispute resolution has not been attempted, the reasons for this should be explained in the request for arbitration -->
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive848#Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17_full_protection This link] to an AN/I thread is not directly related to the present dispute, but shows how contentious this article has been from day one.
*This is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive859#Allegation_of_Racism_at_Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 another AN/I thread], directly related to the current dispute, and evidence of the disruptive editing occurring. No real results.
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive862#Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 Another AN/I thread], dealing with edit-warring. No real results.
*The crux: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive862#Disruptive_editing another AN/I thread], from about a month ago, where the idea of requesting arbitration was first mooted.
*The most [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=639045186&oldid=639018540 recent DRN case], closed as a failure by the DRN volunteer, mentioning ArbCom as the most likely solution.

[[Malaysia Airlines Flight 17|This article]] has been a lighting rod for dispute from the day it was created. It has resulted in numerous threads at the reliable sources, neutral point of view, administrators', and dispute resolution noticeboards, not all listed here. None of these have produced any tangible result. The article in question is under [[WP:ARBEE]] discretionary sanctions, but administrators have refrained from sanctioning anyone, and one uninvolved administrator even said that he thought his involvement in enforcing those sanctions [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17/Archive_19#Aware_of_ARBEE could've resulted] in a threat against his person and family. A small group of editors dominates this article, and each has his or her own view of how it should be developed. Vague "camps" have formed, one revolving around Ukrainian and Western positions, and one around Russian positions. The result is a constant stalemate, with the same editors attacking each other repeatedly, and pushing for their own favourite version of the article. [[WP:AE]] has not been utilised, and any such utilisation is likely to result in more partisanship on the part of each of the "camps" involved in this dispute. The big picture needs to be analysed. Quite frankly, this dispute should've been resolved ages ago. It has festered far too long, and taken up much too much time at various noticeboards, for months. ArbCom needs to step in and sort it out, and find out what's at the bottom of this dispute. The tendentiousness needs to stop, and so does the [[WP:SOAP|advocacy]].

@Newyorkbrad – I suggest that all of the frequent contributors to this article need to have their behaviour examined. There has been a certain tribalisation on the [[Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17|talk page]], and that's the source of the problem. It is systemic, not individual, and I believe that AE simply cannot handle systemic problems like this. There is a reason no AE case has been filed, and that's because it would only further tribalism I've mentioned. I suggest that ArbCom must examine the disruption cause by this tribalism, and by both camps stymying each other through personal attacks and other forms of [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] behaviour. [[User:RGloucester|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">RGloucester </span>]] — [[User talk:RGloucester|☎]] 18:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade – This not a problem that requires arbitration enforcement. This is a problem that requires arbitration, to evaluate the systemic problems at play in this dispute. Again, this dispute has been ongoing for months. If you decline this case, it will likely continue for months, just as it did after each AN/I thread, NPOV noticeboard thread, RS noticeboard thread, or DRN case. Every attempt to deal with it has failed. [[User:RGloucester|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">RGloucester </span>]] — [[User talk:RGloucester|☎]] 21:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I suppose I'll '''withdraw this case'''. If arbitrators do not want to review it, then it shan't be reviewed. I'm not going to AE, and you shan't find any other editor here going to AE either. Targeting one party, as AE demands, is not appropriate. It will result in more tribalism, more battleground behaviour, and will spillover into other Ukraine-related articles. Unless the systematic problems are addressed, the same behaviour will continue. The dispute will continue to boil over, or maybe simmer for a while, and then boil over again. That's fine. It is also quite stupid, but I suppose [[Wikipedia:NOTBUREAUCRACY|bureaucracy]] is always in the way of dispute resolution on Wikipedia. [[User:RGloucester|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">RGloucester </span>]] — [[User talk:RGloucester|☎]] 23:45, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by SaintAviator ===

Thank you in advance for this effort. I welcome this investigation. The behaviour by VM has been over the top. I suggested he take a long break. I have taken the middle road as much as I can. Nothing has worked. Im sorry VM but you have bought the Ukraine war here, and its been unpleasant. I think you need some distance from the article. This is supposed to be an Encyclopaedia, but the process has been diabolical. [[User:SaintAviator |<b style="color:blue">Saint<span style="color:red">Aviator</span></b>]] [[User talk:SaintAviator|<i style="color:blue">lets talk</i>]] 23:52, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by Volunteer Marek ===

This is primarily a content dispute, although there are some behavior issues. However, this case should not be accepted, for the following reasons:

1. A lot of the problems have been caused by "fly-by-night", disposable accounts, which show up, cause trouble for a week, then disappear or get blocked after having caused much drama. Note that the account which filed the DSN request was exactly that; nothing was heard from them after they filed the request (in fact I'm about to submit an SPI on that account). Hence this DSN was not filed in good faith anyway. An ArbCom case is not going to help with such accounts.

2. To the extent that there are a couple regular users who have behaved problematically on the article (in particular [[User:USchick]]), the one avenue that hasn't been tried is utilization of existing discretionary sanctions via WP:AE. I sincerely regret not having filed a WP:AE report several times in the past few months. Had I done so, the relevant users would have been blocked or at least warned, and this behavior would have stopped, one way or another. At the time I kept thinking "ok, let's give this user one more chance... ok, one more chance... ok, last chance..." I promise that's over; if users continue to engage in disruptive behavior WP:AE reports will be filed. We do need to give the discretionary sanctions a chance to work - that's what they're there for, to cut the workload of the committee.

3. It's the holidays. Folks aren't going to have time to participate. By the time this gets off the ground, if accepted, most of the drama will be over.

Let me restate the main point: give discretionary sanctions and WP:AE a chance to work. That's what they're there for, so that every dispute doesn't wind up in ArbCommittee's lap. They have NOT been tried so far.

Happy Holidays!

[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 06:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

@RGloucester - yes, WP:AE has not been utilized which is the point. One thing the admins at WP:AE are good at is cutting off that kind of nonsense. It's a different venue than WP:ANI; it is NOT the usual "free for all" or where the outcome is dependent on how many of your buddies show up to support you. All that gets ignored, and decisions are made on strict (some would say too strict) interpretations of policy.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 06:31, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

@Guy Macon - pending changes protection would definitely help a lot here. A LOT.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 16:42, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

'''Add''': In their latest comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=prev&oldid=639438190] [[User:USchick]] states: ''"We went to ANI in good faith here to ask questions like - Which one of us is being disruptive? Is this acceptable behavior? And we didn't get any feedback. "''.

This is completely false. [[User:USchick]] filed a spurious ANI report against me [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive862#Disruptive_editing] which began with the words: ''"I would like to report User:Volunteer Marek for disruptive editing at Malaysia Airlines Flight 17"''. Does this sound like "going to ANI in good faith" to you??? Does this sound like "(we asked) questions like - which one of us is being disruptive"???? And there was plenty of feedback:

*''"Having read the discussion on the talk page, I agree with Marek's assessment of the situation. Indeed it does seem as though multiple editors have tried to explain rationales for particular edits that USchick disagrees with, and USchick is not listening and relentlessly flogging the dead horse."'' by [[User:Ivanvector]].
*''" I clicked on some diff that was apparently irrefutable evidence that Marek should be blocked. There was jack shit there"'' - by [[User:Drmies]]
*''"The mentioning the admin and their concerns for their safety here, when they don't involve VM, is highly inflammatory and certainly not helpful to your cause"'' by [[User:Serialjoepsycho]]. This was.... '''wait what?!!??!?''' "Concerns for their safety"??? <u>That's right.</u> USchick - who remember, went to ANI in "good faith" - insinuated <u>several</u> times in that thread that <u>I had threatened another user's - an admin's - children</u>. Not kidding. They did this. When called on this, they said, quote: ''" VM was involved in those discussions, bud did not make a <u>direct threat</u>"''. That's right, they then insinuated that I had made an <u>indirect threat</u> against someone's children. You can't make this up.
*This wasn't the first instance of such behavior from [[User:USchick]]. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive859#Allegation_of_Racism_at_Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 Here] is an ANI thread which discusses false allegations of racism by [[User:USchick]] directed at another user - [[User:Geogene]] who has since left Wikipedia (no wonder!) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Geogene]. USchick wanted to use a source which was based on crazy conspiracy websites. Geogene said "that's not a reliable source because it quotes crazy conspiracy websites". USchick then accused them of racism [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&diff=629803515&oldid=629802751]

Seeing a pattern yet? How this editor has not been sanctioned - or even site banned - is beyond me. These are the two instances where I sincerely regret not having submitted this to [[WP:AE]]. If there is a source of disruption on the article talk page, you got the reason for it right there: [[User:USchick]].

There's no need for a full blown case, this is something which could've been handled at WP:AE (had I hadn't been lazy and filed the reports), will be handled at WP:AE if the behavior persists. If you do want to be constructive here then a motion regarding [[User:USchick]]'s behavior would definitely help.
[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 08:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

@[[User:Guerillero]] (and to some extent Seraphimblade) - most of the "bad behavior" is stale by now. The article itself is stable and even most of the discussions have died down. I don't think it'd make sense to bring behavior from a month or two ago to WP:AE now. If this behavior resumes, we'll definitely go to WP:AE. In the meantime, there isn't much to do here.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 01:35, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by USchick ===
There are two groups of people here. One group wants to make changes to the article, and the other group is holding the article hostage and will not allow any changes unless they "approve" them. This needs to stop and I don't care who gets blocked in the process, even if it's me. We need an adult to step in and break this stalemate. This drama has been going on since July, so I doubt it will blow over in two weeks over the holidays. [[User:USchick|USchick]] ([[User talk:USchick|talk]]) 16:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

:@BMK - RGloucester is not in any of the camps and brought this case in good faith. I'm sure everyone involved has a political interest though. The crash itself is under investigation with very little evidence, only speculation. One "camp" of editors has already determined "the truth" about the crash and is using cherry picked sources to defend their version of "the truth." Everyone else is all over the place politically, but they are willing to discuss options. Even when Time Magazine reported about two theories that the investigators are considering, there was an edit war, because only one side of "the truth" is allowed to be told. Link to that conversation: [[Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17/Archive 21#Time article]]. People are very selective about what they already believe, and anything else is not allowed in the article. When they can't discredit the source, they discredit the reporter and ask for "evidence" before the source can be used. I'm not aware of any policy that requires "evidence." Here are two examples of editors discrediting sources and asking for "evidence" because without "evidence" apparently, it's "Undue." [[Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17/Archive 22#reward]]. And here, after a long discussion, it was determined that the source was fine, but there was something wrong with the reporter and the article itself was "flawed" because it didn't match "the truth." [[Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17#Flight path update]]. [[User:USchick|USchick]] ([[User talk:USchick|talk]]) 04:08, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
'''What this case will help to resolve:''' We went to ANI in good faith [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive862#Disruptive_editing here] to ask questions like - Which one of us is being disruptive? Is this acceptable behavior? And we didn't get any feedback. This is why the behavior continues unchecked. We need feedback about who is acting according to policy and who is not. If this committee can do that, that would be most helpful. [[User:USchick|USchick]] ([[User talk:USchick|talk]]) 06:22, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Another example:''' [[User:My very best wishes]] claims that somehow they are being "provoked." In a different article, where no one from this group is involved, My very best wishes is engaged in a similar dispute where they invent brand new Original Research terms not reflected by sources. [[Talk:2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine#"Stealth invasion"]] So yes, this is a systemic problem that requires intervention. [[User:USchick|USchick]] ([[User talk:USchick|talk]]) 04:23, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree with RGloucester about why AE is not the appropriate venue for this dispute. [[User:USchick|USchick]] ([[User talk:USchick|talk]]) 04:30, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by Herzen ===
I believe [[user:RGloucester|RGloucester's]] description of this case is correct, with the qualification that his claim that there are two camps, "one revolving around Ukrainian and Western positions, and one around Russian positions" is misleading, since the "Western camp" has been much more stable than the "Russian camp", since many editors who have tried to do something about this article tending to tendentiously over-represent the position of the "Western camp" were not in any way trying to push a "Russian position", having no interest in Russia or favoring one side in the Ukrainian crisis, but merely found the article to be unbalanced. And there have been several such editors who have stopped participating in editing this article, apparently because they became demoralized.<br>
I believe that my approach and attitude towards editing this article can be described with two simple points. (1) In the discussion in Talk, I engage in what can be called polemics and advocacy for my views on this subject, but when it comes to editing the article itself, I make every effort to attain NPOV, and I believe that other editors working on this article, including those whose views differ from my own, recognize this. (2) My dissatisfaction with the current state of the article can be stated simply, Right after MH17 was downed, lots of stories appeared in news media suggesting who was responsible. But after that initial period, two official investigations were launched into this incident, a technical one into the physical causes of the crash, and a criminal one, both investigations led by the Netherlands. I believe that since there are now these two ongoing investigations, the article should be based on what officials carrying out these investigations say. Yet the article in its current state revolves around not these investigations, but around speculation and what has appeared in social media. My experience has been that '''it has been impossible to achieve a compromise with those editors who want the article to continue to revolve around speculation''' and news reports about what has appeared in social media, as opposed to revolving around the two official investigations. – [[User:Herzen|Herzen]] ([[User talk:Herzen|talk]]) 07:54, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

See this portion of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&diff=636513426&oldid=636512265 diff] that was the basis of the recent DRN case that RGloucester referred to:
:the Dutch government, in a letter to parliament, stated that only two options are examined by the Public Prosecutor: "An attack from the ground or an attack from the air".
The criminal investigation is considering two scenarios, not just one, but '''it has proven impossible to get that fact into the article''' for any length of time, The main purpose of that DRN case was to get this simple fact into the article, but the DRN case failed. And to explain '''the compromise that was rejected''': that the Dutch criminal investigation is considering two theories, but considers one theory much more likely to be true than the other one.
– [[User:Herzen|Herzen]] ([[User talk:Herzen|talk]]) 08:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by Arnoutf ===

Most of this seems to be revolving about use of media: reliability, and what constitutes a small minority view (related to undue attention). Two main topics that divide the "camps" are </br>

(1) the lack of reliability of Russian media - and to what extent the view in that media are non neutral and hence not to be used; or whether the Russian media depict a minority views representing only a very small minority of involved countries (ie the Russian view in comparison to most of the rest of the world) and hence to be used on a very limited scale. </br>

(2) whether all non Russian media reports should be lumped into a single category of Western media (oddly enough including Ukrainian media) which can 1-to-1 be compared to Russian media (which in this scheme would no longer represent a small minority).</br>

In addition talk page has been plagued by extremely bad behaviour from day 1. I have tried to compromise, but in general this has been seen as yielding the point without any effort from the other involved editors to reconsider their position. This, in combination with accusing editors of bad faith suggestions (in particular editors critical about the role of Russia have been stereotyped as Russia haters) creates an atmosphere where serious discussion is impossible since every criticism on the position of other editors is classified as bigotry (and hence requires no attention or re-evaluation of the own position) and where every effort of reaching towards a compromise is seen as agreement there is no value at all in the own, original position. [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] ([[User talk:Arnoutf|talk]]) 07:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

:[[User:Herzen|Herzen]] acknowledges [[polemic]] talk page behaviour. A [[polemic]] (using the Wikipedia description) "is confined to a definite controversial thesis. But unlike debate, which may allow for common ground between the two disputants, a polemic is intended only to establish the truth of a point of view while refuting the opposing point of view." That is one of the main problems on this page. There are several editors who are not willing to look for common ground, and if their position is challenged revert to uncivility. [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] ([[User talk:Arnoutf|talk]]) 09:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by uninvolved DRN volunteer Guy Macon ===
I am the [[WP:DRN|DRN]] volunteer (not to be confused with the user who has the word "Volunteer" as part of his username) who tried to help resolve the recent DRN case. I have never edited [[Malaysia Airlines Flight 17]] and my only edits to [[Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17]] have involved procedural issues concerning dispute resolution. It is my hope that after any user behavior issues are dealt with the content dispute can go back to DRN and be resolved.

In my closing comments on the DRN case, I suggested arbcom, but I am agnostic on the question of whether that should be a new arbcom case or arbitration enforcement.

In my considered opinion, the often-used option of saying that the article is already under discretionary sanctions and doing nothing would not be effective in this case. Doing that essentially sends the problem back to ANI, and we have seen that ANI is unable to resolve the behavioral issues involved.

Level one pending changes would be helpful but is not a substitute for dealing with user behavior issues. It solves ''a'' problem, but it does not solve ''the'' problem. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 06:05, 23 December 2014 (UTC), edited 18:14, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

:If you read the DRN case you will see that, despite many warnings, multiple participants repeatedly ignored the DRN rules ("Please discuss '''article content''', never '''user conduct'''. ''Do not talk about other editors.''"). Now multiple participants are ignoring the 500 word limit ("Without exception, statements (including responses to other statements) must be shorter than 500 words.") As of the time this was posted, there were statements with 638, 663, 798, 908, and 1483 words. This is not fair to those who do follow the rules. It also makes me suspect that there will be a problem with compliance with any arbcom decision. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 18:14, 26 December 2014 (UTC) Edited 20:17, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

===Statement by completely uninvolved [[User:Biblioworm|Biblioworm]]===
In my opinion, this case should have gone to the [[WP:MEDCOM|Mediation Committee]] as a last ditch attempt to resolve the case before coming here. --[[User:Biblioworm|<span style="color:#6F4E37;">'''''Biblio'''''</span>]][[User_talk:Biblioworm|<span style="color:#6F4E37;">'''''worm'''''</span>]] 16:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

===Statement by [[User:Robert McClenon]]===
First, I would like to thank the dispute resolution moderator for trying to resolve this content dispute, but conduct issues made resolution impossible. I respectfully disagree with [[User:Biblioworm]] that there is anything that a Mediation Committee mediator could have done that the moderator did not do. A Mediation Committee mediator has no more tools than a dispute resolution moderator, and cannot deal with [[WP:NPA|personal attacks]], [[WP:TE|tendentious editing]], or [[WP:SOCK|sock-puppetry]].

I ask the ArbCom to consider whether to accept this case for a full evidentiary hearing to determine whether any editors need to be site-banned, or whether to pass some sort of a motion against further [[WP:ANI]] threads to clear the way for letting [[WP:AE|arbitration enforcement]] work, or whether just to let arbitration enforcement work.

Arbitration enforcement has not been used on this case, although it is clearly within the scope of [[WP:ARBEE]], because [[Ukraine]] is unmistakably in [[Eastern Europe]] as usually defined. A full evidentiary hearing is, in my opinion, only needed if it is thought necessary to determine whether any editors need to be site-banned for disruptive editing. Otherwise, the ArbCom can instruct the parties to this case to let Arbitration Enforcement work.

[[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 17:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

::Follow-up comment: There have still been no filings at [[WP:AE|arbitration enforcement]]. The filing party, and anyone else asking ArbCom to accept a full evidentiary case, should explain why arbitration enforcement will not work and why the ArbCom will work, or what remedy (e.g., full site-ban) is being requested that only ArbCom can provide. The comments made by a few parties that arbitration enforcement will not work and that full arbitration is needed are puzzling. In the absence of any new rationale (the need for ArbCom to consider private evidence, or a request for site-bans), a decline is in order. [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 16:14, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

:::Comment: I don't have a strong opinion on whether a full evidentiary hearing is required or whether AE is sufficient. I, along with some other arbs and editors, asked what the ArbCom could do that AE could not do. Is anyone asking for site-bans (not normally done by AE) or for secret evidence (requires Arb functionary trust) or for the ArbCom to make a content decision (not done by either ArbCom or AE). I do have an opinion on the tone of [[User:RGloucester]]'s peremptory statement along with his withdrawal. He says that he won't be going to AE and that no one else will. Does he speak for all of the editors, or all of the editors in his camp, or does he have [[WP:OWN|ownership]] of this article or controversy? Why is he so sure that AE won't work? Can't an editor filing at AE request sanctions against multiple edit-warriors in two camps? [[User:RGloucester]]'s tone and peremptory statement are not self-explanatory. Why is he so sure that AE won't work? He didn't provide a reason to that effect. [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 15:45, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

===Statement by My very best wishes===
<u>I think this article is actually in a good shape, and the dispute has been ''de facto'' resolved per WP:Consensus</u>. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 link to this article talk page]), except that a few users filed excessive complaints to several noticeboards (including this one). For example,
:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Antonioptg This user] is an SPA who edited only three pages and received two blocks for edit warring in two of them. He submitted a DRN request about Malaysia Airlines Flight_17 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=636945613], but did not take any part in the DRN discussion ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard&oldid=639010361#Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 link to DRN case]).
:User USchick wanted to make an WP:AE request, but changed their mind [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&diff=631383284&oldid=631381723] and instead filed a battleground request to WP:ANI [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive862#Disruptive_editing]. I am calling this a "battleground request" because it was left without action on WP:ANI, and rightly so. She/he does almost nothing but complaining about Malaysia Airlines Flight_17 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/USchick&offset=&limit=500&target=USchick].

*I believe this arbitration case has no merit [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Next_Steps and explained this here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ymblanter#Malaysia_Flight_17 here]. There is only one user, USChick, who recently edited almost exclusively [[Malaysia Airlines Flight 17]] - see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/USchick&offset=&limit=500&target=USchick their last 500 edits] and before. She/he indeed could be a subject of an arbitration about Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17. The behavior by some others ''might be'' problematic, but it goes through a number of pages, only one of which was Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. One wound need individual cases about each user <u>submitted to WP:AE</u> if there are any serious problems.

@Devil's Advocate. One could make a much better case that VM "acted in tandem" with RGlouster. There are very good chances that two contributors, who read the same sources and edit in the same area, would agree on a number of topics. What exactly technical options they are using to collaborate positively in the project does not really matter. They can watch pages. They can watch each other. This is all allowed.

@Seraphimblade. I believe that people did not use WP:AE mostly because ''there are no reasons for submitting WP:AE requests at the first place'', which means there is also no reason for conducting this arbitration. Well, there are might be a couple of people whose behavior might be problematic, however the potential submitters of WP:AE knew that they could be easily sanctioned at AE themselves for filing a battleground request, unlike filings on ANI, DRN or this noticeboard.

@Salvio. I am not sure how anyone can submit an WP:AE request related to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Simply looking at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&offset=&limit=100&action=history this article edit history], one can see only one user who has been involved in edit warring during last two weeks (WP:AE requires ''recent'' evidence). This is just another indication that the article is currently stable, and there is no need in arbitration.

*Finally, there was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&diff=639052977&oldid=638986937 an instructive comment/last warning] by McClenon, where he mentioned "five options" for everyone involved. Whatever you decide, I think it would be fair if everyone who, like myself, selected his "option one" (withdraw from editing this article) would be able to walk away and not be a hostage of another arbitration.

=== Statement by Tlsandy ===

===Comment by uninvolved Beyond My Ken===
'''''<small>These comments make reference to comments left by RGloucester which he has now deleted, removing the context. Those interested can find those comments [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=639779468&oldid=639778249 here]. [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 16:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)'''</small>

Since there seems to be agreement that there are two "camps" involved in the dispute over this article, it would be helpful to know for all the named parties which "camp" they consider themselves to be in; specifically, what camp is the initiator of this action, RGloucester, a part of? [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 21:10, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
:@RGloucester - According to the article's revision stats and that of its talk page, you made [https://tools.wmflabs.org/usersearch/usersearch.py?name=RGloucester&page=Malaysia+Airlines+Flight+17&server=enwiki&max=100 33 edits to the article] and [https://tools.wmflabs.org/usersearch/usersearch.py?name=RGloucester&page=Talk%3AMalaysia+Airlines+Flight+17&server=enwiki&max=100 79 edits to the article's talk page]. While this doees not make you one of the primary editors to either one, it also doesn't really support your contention that you don't edit the article. Of course, that doesn't mean that you are partisan in regards to this issue, since your edits could all be unbiased and even-handed -- they would have to be examined to determine if you, in fact, don't carry any POV on this subject, which '''''might''''' have a bearing on why you brought this issue to Arbitration, and that could be a factor in the Committee's evaluation of any evidence you present. [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
::@RGloucester - What was your uninvolved, unbiased, non-partisan purpose in requesting that the article be speedy deleted just last month, as you did with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&diff=prev&oldid=633723061 this edit]? [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:::@RGloucester - Just so it's clear, you are saying that you put a speedy delete tag on a 134k byte article which had been around for 4 months not because you actually thought it qualified for speedy deletion, or because you, for whatever reason, wanted it to be deleted, but as a "joke", making fun of the dispute that you now, one month later, think is so ultra-serious that it must be dealt with by ArbCom? [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:11, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by uninvolved Ivanvector ===
I encourage the committee to accept this case, primarily because it seems that all other avenues have been tried and have failed to correct the toxic editing environment at this article. Like others, I am of the opinion that further attempts at mediation/dispute resolution are moot. It is clear these will continue to fail here, due to the "tribalism" which RGloucester suggested - a situation quite accurately described by Arnoutf above. In the fourth listed AN/I thread ([[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive862#Disruptive editing|this one]]), it was apparent that the article's content issues are minor, but are amplified by the conduct of a few editors, editors who are stubbornly unwilling to even consider a civil approach to those who disagree with their entrenched views. {{ul|TParis}} went so far as to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=633725607&oldid=633725310 suggest a novel approach] intended to find common ground among the combatants; most refused and went immediately back to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=633735356&oldid=633725607 attacking each other] instead, and that seems to be behaviour typical of several editors. RGloucester suggested that "the idea of requesting arbitration was first mooted" in that thread; I'm not sure what he meant but I think it's the opposite - the closing statement reflected the view that Arbcom was not far off because AN/I is not equipped to handle this.

As further evidence of editors' insistence on attacking each other, at the recent DRN, the editors had to be told ''fourteen times'' to refrain from commenting on each other's conduct, not including one dire final warning posted in all caps by a DRN volunteer (which the editors ignored). Clearly several editors here are not interested in collaborative encyclopedia building, they are more interested (or exclusively interested) in taking sides and battling to defend their point of view. I don't know what the solution is here, but I suspect it will involve reviewing the conduct of multiple users, and topic bans for several of them. I don't want to suggest which users, I am nowhere near close enough to the issue. With respect to Guy Macon, I don't believe that pending changes is the solution here because it involves the conduct of [auto]confirmed editors who can simply bypass pending changes. I don't want to reignite the old PC/2 arguments here so I won't say more - ask me on my talk page if you like. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] ([[User talk:Ivanvector|talk]]) 21:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Passing comment from Harry Mitchell ===
I'm not sure what ArbCom could do here except impose discretionary sanctions, which are already in place. I recommend that editors in the topic area utilise the enforcement mechanisms that already exist for conduct issues. The admins at AE are very experienced at enforcing discretionary sanctions (including under ARBEE) and I for one would be willing to do so again if sanctionable misconduct is brought to my attention. [[User:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Teal" face="Tahoma">'''HJ&nbsp;Mitchell'''</font>]] &#124; [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Navy" face= "Times New Roman">Penny for your thoughts? </font>]] 22:48, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
===Statement by Sayerslle ===
The article doesn't seem too bad to me and I don't understand the motivation of RGloucester in all this - an editor who for a laugh nominated this article for deletion a while back - 'petty arguing over nonsense'. Bizarre. what is it now ?- serious arguing over supremely important things? Nor do I see anyone not able to edit the article. this is just a waste of time imo. I don't think I agree much with USChick who seems to want the article to say 'nothing is known -the world awaits the results of the criminal investigation' as I think articles should reflect some of the wider RS reportage - but thats what talk pages are for - to discuss what gets filtered out of articles. [[User:Sayerslle|Sayerslle]] ([[User talk:Sayerslle|talk]]) 14:44, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Question by uninvolved Ncmvocalist ===
Why is evidence against specific individual editors not presented in a cogent form perhaps in the userspace? If there are persons or parties who believe arbitration is necessary (such as {{u|RGloucester}}), that evidence ought to be ready at-hand already rather than prepared later. It may be easier to assess whether there is any point in accepting a case request for this after seeing what the specific evidence against each of the individual listed parties is. [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 04:01, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

===Statement by Brian Dell (User:Bdell555)===

This [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/opinion/russias-ideology-there-is-no-truth.html opinion piece] in the NY Times explains well what's been going on here: ''"'Everything is P.R.,' my Moscow peers would tell me. This cynicism is useful to the state: When people stopped trusting any institutions or having any values, they could easily be spun into a conspiratorial vision of the world. Thus the paradox: the gullible cynic.... At the core of this strategy is the idea that there is no such thing as objective truth. This notion allows the Kremlin to replace facts with disinformation. We saw one example when Russian media spread a multitude of conspiracy theories about the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine in July, from claiming that radar data showed Ukrainian jets had flown near the plane to suggesting that the plane was shot down by Ukrainians aiming at Mr. Putin’s presidential jet. The aim was to distract people from the evidence, which pointed to the separatists, and to muddy the water to a point where the audience simply gave up on the search for truth."''

{{ping|RGloucester}} and friends having been demanding that the Kremlin view be given more credence and more coverage, in RGloucester's view, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&diff=prev&oldid=619857359 "The Russian opinion is important. It isn't fringe"] such that it needs to be featured more, as if the reliability of Kremlin-controlled media is irrelevant. And when featuring the Kremlin's claims, we are not supposed to follow RS if the RS treat the Kremlin claims skeptically, we are instead supposed to spin dry what the RS say in order to present the Kremlin's lies with the "neutrality" missing in the skeptical RS. Change the claimant to Ukraine instead of Russia, however, and RGloucester does a spectacular flip flop, demanding that a Ukrainian government contention be removed and declaring [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17&diff=prev&oldid=619077844 "We want to report what could potentially be propaganda at face value, with no analysis, no verification? Idiocy, pure and simple."]--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 04:09, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by uninvolved Ubikwit ===
It's about time some of the underlying issues were addressed in a case. As always, sourcing is a major aspect of the intractable nature of the dispute. There have been endless discussions at RS/N, and not long ago a more focused RfC, as follows
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources/Archive_44#RfC_-_Do_we_need_a_new_section_on_state_owned_and.2For_operated_news_agencies.3F_Are_they_excluded_from_RS.3F archived discussion on state-owned/operated media outlets]. In light of numerous relevant policies, such as [[WP:NOTCENSORED]], for example, there is a case worthy dispute at hand.--[[User:Ubikwit|<span style="text-shadow:black 0.07em 0.03em;class=texhtml"><font face="Papyrus">Ubikwit</font></span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ubikwit| 連絡 ]]</sup><sub>[[Special:contributions/Ubikwit|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">見学/迷惑</font>]]</sub> 10:38, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by The Devil's Advocate ===
Honestly, a broader case should be considered regarding the feuding going on all over the articles related to the War in Ukraine, not just on this particular topic. Some editing over the past month by Volunteer Marek that I think points to problematic POV-pushing and battleground behavior in these articles: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1992%E2%80%9394_Crimean_Crisis&diff=635136751&oldid=635127733] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Novorossiya&diff=prev&oldid=635141112] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Novorossiya&diff=prev&oldid=635142432] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts&diff=634669628&oldid=634459793] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts&diff=prev&oldid=635160874] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aleksandr_Dugin&diff=prev&oldid=637338044] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Crimean_crisis&diff=prev&oldid=638101186] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Media_portrayal_of_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=638581989] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation&diff=639184403&oldid=639183197]. In many cases he has been acting in tandem with "My very best wishes": [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1992%E2%80%9394_Crimean_Crisis&diff=635056682&oldid=634246671] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts&diff=634844174&oldid=634786127] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts&diff=635159981&oldid=635159278] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation&diff=639548250&oldid=639504118] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Crimean_crisis&diff=634114831&oldid=634052544]. Both of them were members of the [[WP:EEML|EEML]]. Marek has also edit-warred in tandem with Nug, another member of the EEML, on disputes concerning the War in Ukraine: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Veteran_Intelligence_Professionals_for_Sanity&diff=624200749&oldid=624157388] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Veteran_Intelligence_Professionals_for_Sanity&diff=624265830&oldid=624212085] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=625209208] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=625274239] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=625274960] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=626105979] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=625306917].--[[User:The Devil's Advocate|<font color="vermillion">'''The Devil's Advocate'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:The Devil's Advocate|<font color="burntorange">tlk.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/The Devil's Advocate|<font color="red">cntrb.</font>]]</sub> 00:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by Sjones23 ===
<!-- Other editors are free to make relevant comment on this request as necessary.
Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
Please copy this section for the next person. -->

I have no involvement with the [[Malaysia Airlines Flight 17]] article or any of the disputes occurring in the article, but it has stirred up a lot of debates since it was created. Some of the users involved have different views on how the article should be improved. While there were several noticeboard reports (specifically on ANI and DRN), the article falls under the [[WP:ARBEE]] discretionary sanctions since Ukraine is in Eastern Europe. Despite this, [[WP:AE]] was not used. What {{user|RGloucester}} has said about the situation is correct. Considering that fact that the dispute should have been resolved months ago, I think that dispute has gone on long enough with its [[WP:SOAP|soapboxing]] and [[WP:TE|tendentiousness]] and all other attempts to resolve the solution have failed. I would wholeheartedly encourage the ArbCom to consider the possibility of the systematic problems in this particular dispute. [[User:Sjones23|Lord Sjones23]] ([[User talk:Sjones23|talk]] - [[User:Sjones23/Wikipedia contributions|contributions]]) 01:58, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

===Statement by Tutelary===
I have minimal involvement within this topic area. However, I have experienced first hand at how Volunteer Marek has edit warred with users and has exhibited a general [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] mentality when it came to this area. There are other issues such as single purpose accounts edit warring, poor sources, non dispute resolution (but that's been covered by the dispute literally not being resolved by WP:DRN). How arbitration could adequately solve this matter is issue topic bans for disruptive editors, put a 2RR limit on the article, and just in general critique and get to the bottom of certain editors' behavior on the article. Disclosure: I have been involved in a brief dispute of inappropriate refactoring circa 1 month ago. Since then, I've no involvement in the article or the topic area. [[User:Tutelary|Tutelary]] ([[User talk:Tutelary|talk]]) 23:44, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by EdJohnston ===
Taking this to AE is the obvious next step. But even at AE, the complaint would need to be more specific to get anything done. Vague open-ended complaints may lead to random results. There is actually no universal test for whether someone is working in good faith. Applying discretionary sanctions to 30-50% of the active editors (for example) is unlikely to be supported. [[User:RGloucester]] said "''I suggest that all of the frequent contributors to this article need to have their behaviour examined''" but that's not a request for a sanction. We would to see proposed sanctions and actual diffs. If there is only one article in dispute then a proposal for full protection, if made at AE, might be endorsed. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 01:56, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


=== Statement by {Non-Party} ===

=== Clerk notes ===
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''

=== Malaysia Airlines Flight 17: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/10/0/1> ===
{{anchor|1=Malaysia Airlines Flight 17: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter}}<small>Vote key: (Accept/decline''(inc incoming arbs)''/recuse/other)</small>
{{cot|<small>{{clerk note}} Hatting outgoing arbitrator comments as their terms have ended. <b>[[User:Callanecc|Callanecc]]</b> ([[User talk:Callanecc|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Callanecc|contribs]] • [[Special:Log/Callanecc|logs]]) 04:12, 1 January 2015 (UTC)</small>}}
*Awaiting more statements, which should ideally indicate what we might do in a decision that would be helpful in resolving the dispute. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 15:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
**Given that this case even if accepted wouldn't realistically get underway before my term expires on December 31, I will leave it for my colleagues to vote on. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 15:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
**'''Archive request as withdrawn.''' [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 13:23, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
* '''Decline''', especially as request withdrawn. [[User:Worm That Turned|<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;'>'''''Worm'''''</span>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User Talk:Worm That Turned|<font color='#060'>talk</font>]]) 09:55, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Decline''' as withdrawn. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 19:35, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
{{cob}}

*I would also be interested to hear how anyone thinks an arbitration case would help toward resolving this issue, especially given that discretionary sanctions already apply to the article. I don't see any indication that any matters believed to require arbitration enforcement have been brought to [[WP:AE|the proper venue]] where several admins very experienced in enforcing discretionary sanctions will see the request, and would strongly recommend that enforcement action be requested in that way rather than any other. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 21:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
**'''Decline'''. The problems brought up here could (where they do in fact exist) be solved by enforcement of discretionary sanctions. The next time they arise, that should be requested. If that fails to solve the issue, we might have a case, but we haven't reached that point yet, and I suspect it will go a long way toward keeping a lid on bad behavior or removing those who can't behave from the area. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 22:37, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
*Though the edits in question are covered by discretionary sanctions, arbitration enforcement has not been tried yet. And, before accepting a case, I'd like to see that all alternative routes have been tried; so, my vote is to hold this case in abeyance for a short while, to allow disputants to go to AE. If that fails, then we can have get involved. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> '''[[User:Salvio giuliano|Salvio]]'''</span> [[User talk:Salvio giuliano|<sup>Let's talk about it!</sup>]] 11:46, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
* <s>'''Accept.''' [[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 23:08, 27 December 2014 (UTC)</s>
:* Not convinced that this is the best decision, but I will bow to the majority and strike my vote, allowing the request to be withdrawn as indicated by the filer. Procedural '''decline'''. [[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 10:59, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
*Provisional '''decline'''. This will come into effect on 1 Jan unless I state otherwise. I would like to see if the community can resolve this at AE before we go into full arbitration. --[[User:Guerillero|<font color="#0b0080">Guerillero</font>]] &#124; [[User_talk:Guerillero|<font color="green">My Talk</font>]] 01:18, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
*Provisional '''decline'''. This will come into effect on 1 Jan unless I state otherwise. Discretionary sanctions are available for this area, and admins who are experienced at AE are of the opinion that this can be handled effectively there so I see no reason not to at least try. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 19:10, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
*Provisional '''decline'''. I'd like to see AE at least take a crack at solving this dispute in a manner more expedient than an arbitration case. Of course, no prejudice against this coming back here if that fails. [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 19:17, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
:*Formal '''decline'''. [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 00:17, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
* '''Decline''' This can be handled by AE/DS. &nbsp;[[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|''talk'']]</sup> 07:55, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Decline'''. '''[[User:LFaraone|L]]<font color="darkgreen">[[User talk:LFaraone|Faraone]]</font>''' 20:27, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Decline'''. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 05:16, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
*Provisional '''Decline'''. AE has the teeth needed to assist here and ArbCom is not going to be any additional help than Arbitration Enforcement at this point in time. If the topic area needs bans, etc. vs the article, then that needs to be separate from this. -- [[User:DeltaQuad|<font color="green">DQ</font>]] [[User_Talk:DeltaQuad|<font color="blue">(ʞlɐʇ)</font>]] 07:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

== Wifione ==
== Wifione ==
'''Initiated by ''' [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> '''at''' 04:09, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
'''Initiated by ''' [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> '''at''' 04:09, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 04:21, 1 January 2015

Requests for arbitration

Wifione

Initiated by Jehochman Talk at 04:09, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Jehochman

This is a case about accusations of serious misconduct by admin Wifione, including POV pushing, lying and paid editing. Accusations have been made by multiple editors; I've selected Anthonyhcole and Vejvančický as parties because their complaints seem more prominent and more persistent, though there may be others who could be added upon further review. If the accusations are true, Wifione needs to be desysopped, and possibly banned. Only ArbCom can take the necessary steps. The evidence in this matter is sufficiently voluminous that it would be unreasonable to expect passing editors at AN/I to fully familiarize themselves with the facts to make an informed decision. If the accusations are not true, there is a mob of angry editors hurling personal attacks at Wifione that needs to be disbanded. In my opinion, this is a matter where Arbitration could be very useful. Is this case ripe? Accusations have been floating around for more than a year, and still haven't been resolved one way or the other. I'd say this case is over-ripe.

Statement by Wifione

This is to acknowledge my presence here. If there are any clarifications that the community wishes on any diffs/actions (if the case is accepted), I'll be readily available to provide them. @Biblioworm, if you notice the complete set of my statements at ANI, I've mentioned that I haven't had any intentions of deleting the Editor Review. I was just put off by two commentators out there who were plainly discrediting the fact that I started the review and continue maintaining the review till date (despite the Editor Review process becoming redundant by community action) just to ensure transparency. My statement was more of an in-the-face reply to those commentators and shouldn't have been made that way. Thanks. Wifione Message 06:12, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Anthonyhcole

Gaaaah. I was hoping I could put together such a compelling executive summary here that you would deal with this by motion. But it's going to take ages to construct something short, clear and comprehensive enough. Do what you will. I'll keep working on this and post here if the request is still open when I'm done. If you go ahead with a case before I've posted here, I'll post it there.


Statement by Vejvančický

I already commented and provided relevant evidence, diffs and links at Wikipedia:Editor review/Wifione (the page also contains links to relevant discussions on-wiki, off-wiki, and mentions in the media such as the Times of India). Anyone who wants to comment on the case should read the review first. I don't think that the response by User:Wifione was sufficient, and I explained my opinion in the editor review. I'll continue here. I wrote in the review that in my opinion Wifione knowingly manipulated articles about educational institutes in India. In February 2011, he created the article Ashok Chauhan about the founder of the Amity group of institutions. The article started as a single sentence with a reference to a critical article published by the investigative magazine Tehelka. I'm convinced that the real intention of the creator was to highlight marginally important information about an arrest warrant issued in Germany against Mr. Chauhan to show this person in a bad light. Wifione later developed the information in this edit.

In Autumn 2011, another editor, Cfiveindia, started a conversation now archived at User_talk:Wifione/Archive_2011_(September)#How_Can_I_discuss_with_you.3F and later re-opened here. Cfiveindia, who guilelessly admitted that s/he is a part of the Amity Group, complained about the unfair manipulation of the articles Amity University and Ashok Chauhan. Cfiveindia also noted that the arrest warrant has been revoked and "the Tehelka article was removed by the publication after they were informed and realised the real motives of the journalist". It is true that the article has been deleted from Tehelka archives (see [4], June, 11 2005), however, it still remains here. Wifione promised his assistance to Cfiveindia, however, he quietly left the discussion, archived, and did nothing. A year later, in Autumn 2012, Wifione quickly spotted a post by another editor, Higheredutrust, and posted a threatening message on their talk page. Soon after that, he started a sockpuppet investigation which resulted in blocking of his opponent(s). Case closed.

Let's compare with another discussion, regarding Mr. Chauhan's competitor, Arindam Chaudhuri. Surprisingly, in this case Wifione attempts to whitewash and completely remove negative information despite more convincing evidence recording many controversies around Mr. Chaudhuri. Wifione removes criticism and negative information not only from the article, but also from the talk page [5], [6], [7]. It's being noticed by others, see for example Talk:Arindam_Chaudhuri#New_section or User_talk:Wifione/Archive_2012_(January)#Arindam_Chaudhuri, however, Wifione with his manipulative skills manages to enforce his version most of time. Wifione, in this edit you asked an editor who requested "criticism section" in the article Arindam Chaudhuri: "...what long term encyclopedic worth do you make of this?" Now I ask you: What "long term encyclopedic worth" you see in mentioning a marginally important, oudated and revoked arrest warrant against a living individual in an encyclopedic article? I have on my mind the article Ashok Chauhan (who is a direct competitor of Mr. Chaudhuri). You have removed a lot of content from multiple articles about Indian Institutes of Management (schools competing with Mr. Chaudhuri's IIPM) as "boosterism" [8], [9], [10] etc. I don't say all your edits were bad, but it looks strange when, on the other hand, you insert to articles - and insist on - statements like Mr. Chaudhuri is a "management guru" [11] [12] [13] or when I compare for example this edit to the article Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad with this edit to Indian Institute of Planning and Management (IIPM) - in the first edit you remove the same kind of information you add in your second edit cited here.

Now, let's compare some of your edits to the article Indian_School_of_Business (ISB) with your edits to IIPM article. Here, for example, you changed the lead section of the ISB article to insert information about ISB courses violating All India Council of Technical Education (AICTE) regulations. Here, you repeat that "courses are not approved by AICTE", again, in the lead section. However, when you edited the lead section of the IIPM page, you've added a long and completely irrelevant explanation about how corrupt and incompetent the regulatory body (AICTE) is.

Wifione, all I can see in a sample of your edits to the articles about education in India is fraudulent behavior, use of double standards and misuse of Wikipedia's rules and policies to promote interests of selected subjects and entities. Your edits to the above mentioned articles are prime examples of dangerous manipulation. One has to examine your "work" in a broader context and compare your edits to articles about competing subjects in this field to see your real intentions. I did that in your editor review and I continue here. All I can tell is that I'm deeply ashamed to collaborate with a person like you on this beautiful project. In my opinion you should resign as an administrator and retire immediately. I apologize for the length of my post, but this is a very complex story.

Statement by Lukeno94

  • This is pretty open-and-shut. All the evidence one needs to place an indefinite ban is present at Wikipedia:Editor review/Wifione, and Wifione's only defence in the recent ANI has been a hilarious WP:BADSITES-based one, where everyone who happens to comment at WO must be a sheep toeing the "party line". Some of the evidence is highlighted clearly in diffs in that thread as well. Wikipedia has enough paid shills as it is; we should be actively banning the ones who do get caught (this is not the same as paid editing, by the way) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:33, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also note that Wifione has directly, and nakedly, stated their intention to delete and obfuscate that editor review here. Not only that, Wifione appears to be an abuse filter manager - which makes it very easy for them to censor criticism. If they do delete the editor review, then I will repost it in my userspace straight away. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:58, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Wifione: Your words in the ANI thread do not lie. You absolutely did threaten to delete your editor review, and there is absolutely no other way of interpreting "Why don't you or Andrew make a copy before I delete it? For your benefit, I'll keep it as-is for a couple of days more." Just in case you try and obfuscate that, I've saved the entirety of ANI from that post's time, and will add the whole section to my userspace if you do try and hide the ANI thread. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:11, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Only in Death: Whether direct admin bit abuse has occurred not is both academic and irrelevant at this point. Behaviour of this kind absolutely warrants both a desysopping and a full-on site ban - we cannot allow administrators who have a history of abusing the system to retain their bit, particularly when it comes to BLPs, which Wifione has a large history of inserting extremely inappropriate content to, and censoring others. Allowing Wifione to remain on this site as an admin, or indeed at all, sends out a message to everyone that it is OK to be a paid shill, and it is OK to violate several of the core policies of this site, and that we won't do anything about it. To suggest that desysopping is not warranted suggests that you've not looked at any evidence whatsoever. Also, premature Arbcom case? This should've happened 6-12 months ago, when Wifione tried to avoid all of the awkward questions from their editor review. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:00, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, and I can find a dubious block that isn't related to this case at all, and is in fact very recent indeed. User:Matt 20123 was blocked indefinitely for "Repeated removal of warning notices without acknowledgement; disruption suspected in future", despite the user talk page policy only restricting the removal of unblock requests - something the user did not remove, and indeed, had never posted. Indeed, removing warning notices is explicitly stated as "The removal of material from a user page is normally taken to mean that the user has read and is aware of its contents." This block also came two days after the user had last edited anything in mainspace, and less than 24 hours into an existing block. Extremely poor indefinite block that was punitive, not preventative, as the user had no chance to reform post-block. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:11, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dusti; I agree with Nsk92's assessment of the case's current status. ANI cannot decide if a desysopping is required or not, let's not forget. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:17, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dusti: There doesn't need to be obvious evidence of tool misuse if the user has been manipulating Wikipedia in pretty appalling ways to further their POV. Besides, I pointed out above an extremely dodgy block that shows a poor grasp of the blocking policy; Wifione was clearly listening, as they unblocked/reduced the block (don't remember exactly which) within about half an hour. This user is not fit to be on Wikipedia, and certainly not to be an admin. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:01, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comment by Biblioworm

I have absolutely no involvement in this whatsoever, but I wanted to say that Wifi should not be allowed to delete his editor review. Doing so would be evasion of accountability. --Biblioworm 19:31, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

While there are many issues at play here, I think Arbs should pay close attention to the potential WP:BLPCOI issues regarding this editor. There has been persistent editing by various COI parties to sanitize the BLP of a person from one institution, while simultaneously seeking to trash the BLP of someone from a rival institution. Wifione has engaged in the same behavior, including being the original author of the trashed BLP who added the various attacks against the individual in the first place, and is possibly also a COI party given certain clues. Articles pertaining to this potential COI appear to be the focus of most of Wifione's article contributions and so any avoidance of accountability on the matter should be addressed forcefully. At the bare minimum Wifione should not be allowed anywhere near this topic, though I expect a desysopping would be in order as well given the severity of the misconduct. I take no stance on whether the conduct is severe enough to warrant a ban from Wikipedia altogether, though there is obviously precedent for that sort of response even when it concerns an admin.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 02:44, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Only in Death

As all issues are bog-standard editing issues (COI, NPOV etc etc) of which there is ample evidence, a simple topic ban from the areas would suffice. This is well within the ability of AN/ANI to impose (I did actually propose it, but any discussion or investigation was effectively cut off by this premature request for arbitration). As there is no accusation of admin-bit misuse, there is no need for arbcom involvement at this time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Comment by uninvolved Nsk92

I disagree with both Only in Death and Lukeno94 in their characterization of this case. @Only in Death: I don't believe this case is suitable for an easy resolution at ANI. The issues and conflicts raised here have festered for a number of years and to an uninitiated observer, such as myself, they appear to be fairly complex. DGG's comments at Talk:Indian Institute of Planning and Management#Draft are illuminating in this regard and they show, in my opinion, why this is not a very easy case to figure out. I think it requires greater care and more in-depth analysis than an ANI discussion usually allows, and ArbCom seems to me to be the right venue for sorting things out in this case. @Lukeno94: by the same token, this does not appear to me to be an "open-and-shut" case, not at all. I have read through Wikipedia:Editor review/Wifione and also read the wikipediocracy article mentioned in the statement of Maunus[14] (Maunus' statement seems to have been removed since then). There are a number of accusations raised against WifiOne in various places. The more explosives of these seem to be: that WifiOne is actually Nichalp; that WifiOne has engaged in undisclosed paid editing; that WiFiOne has an undisclosed substantial COI related to the locus of this dispute. In Wikipedia:Editor review/Wifione WiFiOne has unequivocally denied all of these. If some of WiFiOne's opponents wishing to participate in this case do maintain that some of the above mentioned charges are true, they need to say so directly and unequivocally in this RFAR request and provide some supporting evidence here, with diffs, (and not simply refer to previous threads elsewhere). The remaining charges seem to be that WiFiOne has engaged in POV pushing and some BLP manipulation to advance a particular POV. These are very serious accusations, but they are also usually the hardest to prove. Vejvančický's statement above does a fairly good job in laying the ground for some of these charges, and I must admit that I find the information presented by Vejvančický very troubling. Still, IMO, this is not the sort of a situation that could be described as an "open-and-shut" case, and the exasperation evident in DGG's comments at Talk:Indian Institute of Planning and Management#Draft underscores the difficulty in untangling what's what here. If WiFiOne's opponents, including Lukeno94, have some extra direct evidence, in terms of diffs, timeline, editing patterns, etc, in addition to what is given in Vejvančický's statement above, they should certainly provide it here. You can't expect the arbs to wade through the links to the various prior discussion threads on their own if you want the ArbCom to accept this case. Nsk92 (talk) 19:47, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Dusti: I suggest that you read through the current ANI thread and the links listed by Guy Macon at the start of Wikipedia:Editor review/Wifione, including User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_152#User:Wifione. Do you really think that more AN/ANI discussions would do any good here? I think Jehochman's description of the situation in his comments above is correct. Nsk92 (talk) 20:10, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion from SB_Johnny

A rather large and thorough collection of evidence regarding this case is publicly available on Wikipediocracy, and frankly I can't see how going through the motions of a full case will yield anything more than arbitrarily scheduled weeks strife, drama, and public spectacle.

I strongly recommend the committee privately consider the option of passing a motion or motions before endorsing a case. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 02:39, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dusti (uninvolved)

The information and dispute here haven't gone through any other dispute resolution processes unless I'm missing something. AN and/or AN/I haven't sufficiently been used to try passing any appropriate topic bans, etc. as stated by someone above who tried doing so but that discussion was cut short by someone jumping the gun and filing an ArbCom case. All I see here is an upset crowd throwing allegations, of which there's no actual allegation of abuse of the admin bit. There are other sufficient avenues that we should try first. This falls outside of the purview of ArbCom at the moment I feel. Dusti*Let's talk!* 19:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I may be completely missing something, and forgive me if I am, but @Lukeno94: - I'm not seeing any allegations of administrator tool abuse, so why would desysoping be necessary? Dusti*Let's talk!* 02:01, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {Non-party}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Wifione: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <12/0/1/0>

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other) Number in brackets includes incoming arbs

Given that realistically this case even if accepted won't get underway before my term expires on December 31, I will leave it to my colleagues to vote on. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:47, 27 December 2014 (UTC)  Clerk note: This arbitrator's term has expired. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 04:06, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Based upon the background here, we have one of two possibilities. Either we have an administrator who is editing in defiance of the terms of use, or we have a group who is unjustly making an accusation of such. I offer no opinion as to which of those might be the case, but given the likelihood of private handling for at least some portions being required, I'm minded to accept. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:35, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept. AGK [•] 23:12, 27 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional accept. This will come into effect on 1 Jan unless I state otherwise. --Guerillero | My Talk 01:15, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept. Salvio Let's talk about it! 11:04, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional accept. This will come into effect on 1 Jan unless I state otherwise. I agree with Seraphimblade's opinion above. Thryduulf (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional accept. Seraphimblade pretty much laid out my thoughts on the matter. Courcelles 19:28, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional accept, effective Jan. 1. DGG ( talk ) 04:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
the named party asked me to recuse, so I shall. DGG ( talk ) 04:31, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept though the case will need some clear ground rules and tight clerking,  Roger Davies talk 07:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Non-acceptance "accept" safe in the knowledge that I'll be gone before it's open... WormTT(talk) 09:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)  Clerk note: This arbitrator's term has expired. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 04:06, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]