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DOB source

@Coemgenus: What's the source for adding October 28 to her DoB? The inline source only says 1957. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have a source on Ancestry.com, but I was reluctant to list it because it uses her former name, which I've seen people get pushback for on here before. It's here. --Coemgenus (talk) 22:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Coemgenus: Without a reliable, non-primary source, we shouldn't use Ancestry.com as a source per WP:BLPPRIMARY. See WP:ANCESTRY.COM. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, if you want to revert me, it's fine with me. I won't add it again. --Coemgenus (talk) 22:30, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GorillaWarfare: Just checking, would this be an appropriate source for her date of birth? It's from Q-Notes. DanCherek (talk) 23:43, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was briefly concerned when I saw the section of the Q-Notes article titled "Developments, controversies and notoriety", but from what I can tell that rather alarming section title is based only on the fact that "Chris Crain, former editor of The Washington Blade criticized Q-Notes coverage as it did not include information that the interviews had been conducted via email." How bizarre... Anyway, yeah, that seems reasonably reliable to me and isn't a primary source like Ancestry.com. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect words

In the personal history, Dr. Levine had a Bas Mitzvah, not a Bar Mitzvah. Bar Mitzvah is for boys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C:C000:2290:F160:2426:8FE1:B8E6 (talk) 00:26, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think you'll find that they had a Bar Mitzvah. Zacwill (talk) 01:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Levine didn't transition until 2011, so it would have been a bar mitzvah. Ideally there would be a gender neutral form of the word we could use (per the guidance at MOS:GENDERID), but I'm not sure there is—I've seen "b'nai mitzvah" but I'm not sure that is widely used in the singular. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Judaism could weigh in on the term. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:45, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think Therequiembellishere's solution to remove it entirely actually makes a lot of sense, per their rationale in the edit summary. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Zacwill: Can you please join the discussion rather than warring over its inclusion? GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from my edit summaries: "The sentence itself isn't sourced and tbqh, it doesn't add anything to include it either way. She went to Hebrew school and is Jewish is more than enough without having to wade into this bar/bat mitzvah debate. It goes without saying a Hebrew school kid was mitvahed. What are we gaining as a reader by making a thorny decision like this based on a source that has no authority on queer issues when we could just not include it? It is not core to the article and we gain everything we need by saying she's Jewish. This is fighting for fighting sake to include a gendered term. If she was a rabbi, we'd likely need a decision. She's not, we don't." Therequiembellishere (talk) 02:27, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a completely manufactured issue, and to delete content from the article because of it is pathetic. Levine happily admits to having been "bar mitzvah-ed" in an interview (at p. 558), so it really can't be all that "thorny". Removing the passage from the article is preferable to rewriting it to falsely imply that Levine had a bat mitzvah, but both courses are deeply silly and deleterious (we don't "gain everything we need by saying she's Jewish", since it isn't a given that Jews have mitzvah ceremonies—many secular ones don't). Zacwill (talk) 02:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not completely manufactured; avoiding confusing constructions about a woman having a bar mitzvah is in keeping with the advice at MOS:GENDERID. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is it fundamental to Rachel Levine how she was mitzvahed? The answer is no. It's really not worth any of this. Also reading that portion of the interview as her speaking "happily" seems... suspect. Therequiembellishere (talk) 03:11, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Levine is originally from Wakefield, Massachusetts.[6] She is Jewish, grew up attending Hebrew school, and had a bar mitzvah. She has recalled that while she was growing up, her rabbi did not talk about LGBTQ issues.[7] She earned her high school diploma from Belmont Hill School in Belmont, Massachusetts.[8]

link - https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/jewish-woman-welcomed-as-transgender-states-new-physician-general/

from article - "As a Jewish youth growing up in a Jewish household in Wakefield, Mass., having a bar mitzvah, attending Hebrew school and attending a conservative shul, Levine said the rabbi did not talk about LGBTQ issues. It was the late 1960s, early 1970s, she said, and things are only now getting better."

my explanation - I believe that the correct term for Rachel Levine's coming of age ceremony is Bar Mitzva, despite the fact that she now identifies and lives as a woman. It looks like the provided link leads to the wikipedia bar mitzvah entry. Perhaps I'm wrong. This is a question that Rachel Levine should answer. Natashaloewy (talk) 02:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done Levine had a bar and not a bat mitzvah, as indicated by the source for this section of the article. Zacwill (talk) 02:18, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See the section above this one as well. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2021 (2)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

ADDITIONS

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. The proposed edits are bullet points instead of prose, and if they are all added to the article, they may be giving undue weight to her personal experience with being transgender, rather than her notable accomplishments. Please discuss. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Levine’s recent appointment is historic not due to her notable accomplishments but due to her being transgender. The public viewing this article will be intrigued by both information on her accomplishments and personal experiences. While all should be encouraged to source information on her career as soon as possible, it would do a disservice to readers to exclude information that adds color to what supporters feel is a very exciting moment. (If it’s permitted - I would encourage editors to consider young queer/questioning folks and how they might benefit from knowing as much as possible about Dr. Levine overcoming adversity.) Thank you. - Iforget2020 (talk) 09:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additions to: Early Life and Education

She said she lived with a "secret" from an early age and spent much of her life trying to fit in.^[1]

She said, "All I knew is I wanted to be a girl, or I was a girl, or female." ^[2]

Additions to: Personal Life

Describing a point she reached in her 40s, she said, "Boy, did I have a midlife crisis." She began seeing a therapist and attending meetings of TransCentralPA^[3]

She said she threw herself into school work, then her career, in order to "compartmentalize" troubling feelings about her gender.^[4]

"What is comes down to is I decided to live my life with no secrets ... with no fear," she said.^[5]

Leaders at Penn State Hershey (Medical Center) and her patients were supportive after she transitioned to living as a female.^[6]

The reaction of her mother, a lawyer who was in her mid-80s: "I'm not sure I understand, but I love you unconditionally."^[7] LiveFreeWillyOrDie (talk) 03:13, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.
^ "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.
^ "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.
^ "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.
^ "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.
^ "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.
^ "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.

Openly transgender

Is that a thing? Or rather, is the opposite a thing--is there a recognized phenomenon of closeted transgender people like there are closeted gay people? If "openly transgender" isn't a generally recognized concept, it's probably best to drop the word "openly" from the article. Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 06:18, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that, yes, there is an exactly analogous situation where some trans people are closeted by living publicly as the gender they were assigned at birth and also a second situation where some trans people live as their actual gender without it being publicly known that this differs from the gender they were assigned at birth (i.e. "being stealth").

But... This does not mean that you are wrong to question the use of "openly". I don't like it and I similarly dislike "openly gay". I feel this can be appropriate in historical contexts where openness would be a rare exception but is best not used for contemporary people. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My sense is that the context of use is important here. Since it is likely that some federal official, sometime has come out after ceasing to be a federal official, or has been de facto transgender without coming out before death (ahem), it would be inappropriately BOLD to state that Levine is the first senior federal official, ever, to be transgender. I'm not sure "openly" is the right word, but some such delimiter is necessary IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 14:43, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we need to be clear that she's the first transgender person who is out at the time of her nomination. Reliable sources have sometimes said "first transgender" in headlines, but within every article they caveat "first openly transgender" (WaPo, NYT, BBC, AP). Would it help if we linked "openly" to Coming out#Transgender identity and coming out or Transgender#Coming out? POLITANVM ^talk 16:21, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do think we should include some term so as to avoid suggesting closeted transgender people are not actually transgender. "Openly" or "out" would seem to do it; "out" might be a bit better. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:30, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone. Yes if the press is saying "openly" then I guess we should do the same, and linking the word to one of those "coming out" sections (I guess I better read them) sounds good. It hadn't occurred to me to think that a closeted transgender person isn't really transgender. I was thinking more of the mental revision required to take in the concept of closeted gender status existing at all. I'm introverted enough to not be bothered by this, but I can imagine a bunch of cable news heads exploding if someone comes out while or after holding a high enough office. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 17:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.

[2] "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.

[3] "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.

[4] "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.

[5] "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.

[6] "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.

[7] "Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth". pennlive.com. Mar 20, 2015.

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[3]

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Revision as of 17:49, 22 January 2021 edit 2601:648:8202:96b0::313a (talk) →‎Openly transgender ← Previous edit		Revision as of 17:58, 22 January 2021 edit undo 2601:648:8202:96b0::313a (talk) →‎Openly transgender Next edit →
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	::::I do think we should include some term so as to avoid suggesting closeted transgender people are not actually transgender. "Openly" or "out" would seem to do it; "out" might be a bit better. [[User:GorillaWarfare\|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare\|(talk)]]</small> 16:30, 22 January 2021 (UTC)		::::I do think we should include some term so as to avoid suggesting closeted transgender people are not actually transgender. "Openly" or "out" would seem to do it; "out" might be a bit better. [[User:GorillaWarfare\|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare\|(talk)]]</small> 16:30, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

	Thanks everyone. Yes if the press is saying "openly" then I guess we should do the same, and linking the word to one of those "coming out" sections (I guess I better read them) sounds good. It hadn't occurred to me to think that a closeted transgender person isn't really transgender. I was thinking more of the mental revision required to take in the concept of closeted gender status ~~being~~ a ~~thing~~. I'm introverted enough to not be bothered by this, but I can imagine a bunch of cable news heads exploding if someone comes out while or after holding a high enough office. [[Special:Contributions/2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A\|2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A]] ([[User talk:2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A\|talk]]) 17:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)		Thanks everyone. Yes if the press is saying "openly" then I guess we should do the same, and linking the word to one of those "coming out" sections (I guess I better read them) sounds good. It hadn't occurred to me to think that a closeted transgender person isn't really transgender. I was thinking more of the mental revision required to take in the concept of closeted gender status existing at all. I'm introverted enough to not be bothered by this, but I can imagine a bunch of cable news heads exploding if someone comes out while or after holding a high enough office. [[Special:Contributions/2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A\|2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A]] ([[User talk:2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A\|talk]]) 17:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)