Talk:Minneapolis

George Floyd

Should the comments on George Floyd be in its own section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anastacio21 (talk • contribs) 19:56, 21 April 2021 (UTC) Anastacio21 (talk) 20:06, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

We now have content related to George Floyd in three sections. It is undeniably important, but there is no need for three separate (and to some degree repetitious) discussions. Kablammo (talk) 12:59, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Kablammo, I undid the most recent addition. If you had something else in mind please holler. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Maybe you would edit the even more recent addition to the lead. I have no objection to its being there, only to innaccurate wording. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:33, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

We should not have George Floyd on the top of the page. It does not define the city the same way 9/11 doesn’t define New York City so much so that it’s on the top of the page Themightytouch (talk) 22:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Themightytouch, I disagree. There's nothing wrong with it. Also I just noticed that the assassination of Medgar Evers is at the top of Mississippi. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Additions

Hi, a few things missing from this article. Maybe someone will pitch in?

• Owamni is open  Done
• Herbivorous Butcher, vegan butchershop  Done
• tunnel collapse at St. Anthony Falls in 1869

Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:32, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Where should the Hennepin History Museum go? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)  Done

More problems:

• the number of charter schools (review sources for Education: Primary and secondary)
• police section, saying 500 shootings twice is redundant  Done -SusanLesch (talk) 19:51, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
• in the Government section, we still say weak mayor  Done
• Demographics has a failed verification flag
• in Annual events, MayDay needs clarification

-SusanLesch (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Flags

Greetings, Ealdgyth. Thank you for removing flags for sister cities. They did seem to be decorative. Could you please explain though why you made this edit? MOS:INFOBOXFLAG says: Human geographic articles – for example settlements and administrative subdivisions – may have flags of the country and first-level administrative subdivision in infoboxes. This article is a human geographic article. What harm do the flag of the country and state do? -SusanLesch (talk) 03:17, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I would like to add to the page the logo of Minneapolis, which is much more often seen here in Minneapolis than its flag, for example on public signs or on official paper. The logo is the two schematic sale boats, one solid white, one solid dark blue, both with dark blue outlines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.153.19.114 (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

207.153.19.114, yes. The logo is more familiar. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:12, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Introduction

Hello fellow Wikipedians. There has been consensus between some editors about editing the introduction to this article. The slight addition would read as follows:

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ (About this soundlisten)) is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the seat of Hennepin County.[6] Minneapolis is located around Saint Anthony Falls on the Mississippi River. The city, once dubbed the "flour milling capital of the world", was the industrial center of the Upper Midwest from the 1880s until about the 1930s.[7] Despite a significant shift away from industrial activity, Minneapolis still remains Minnesota’s major economic and cultural center. The city has one of the nation's best park systems,[8] with thirteen lakes, wetlands, woodlands, creeks and waterfalls, many connected by parkways in the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway.

It has been sourced and approved by several other editors, but to come to a larger consensus please state any changes to the following statement. There has also been a strong consensus in the past about expanding the introduction and this is proposal to do so.

Thank you ~~Gooob

(User:SusanLesch)

User:Gooob, you wrote here six seconds before I did. There is no consensus for your version. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello user: SusanLesch! Any changes you have? I have talked with other editors to write this. Trying to get consensus here! ~~ Gooob (talk) 15:39, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

No. I much prefer the version we have. "Other editors" have not commented here. Please stop your disruptive editing. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. Can we move the milling sentence (that is already written) to the top. Seems like a major part of Minneapolis. Trying to come to a comprise here. I appreciate your help making productive edits. Thank you ~~ Gooob (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Hey, I usually edit political articles but got a notification about this and read through this convo and the editor’s edits and it seems like most of that editor’s edits look like undue weight to me so I would not add what they wrote at all. but I feel like there are two things they mentioned that could be worth to add based on reading this convo and edits so I added them to the article. I feel like this is a done convo.

I have left a note on the editor’s talk page to tell him about his unconstructive edits. ~~ V3393s (talk) 17:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Sudden interest

Greetings. We have three new editors with a sudden interest in Minneapolis: User:JesseeV3, User:Gooob, User:Marshens. Frankly, this city has been through enough already. None of these editors even tried to reach consensus here on the talk page to make their changes. Inaccurate rewording of this long-standing article will be reverted. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:27, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello user:SusanLesch! I agree with your statements. I can not speak for the other editors you mentioned, but I have a place in the talk page consensus about an edit I have been think of! Please add changes if you have some! Thank you! ~~Gooob Gooob (talk) 15:30, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Another new editor User:V3393s seems to suddenly be interested. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I just make an edit and comment on a talk page discussion, gave a disruptive user a warning, because I have this page starred on my watchlist. Edit has been reversed. No need for further convo. V3393s (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Changes to the lead

Greetings User:Marshens. Can you please explain the objective of your edits to the lead? I do not understand what you are trying to accomplish. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

SusanLesch I am trying to make the lead more of a overview. See Atlanta as an example. The current lead starts off with a factoid about natural amenities, which is important but not an overview of the city\lead worthy. I combined a previously written lead that was more of an introduction (from 2019) and slightly rearranged what was already written (nothing new) to make a stronger lead. I feel like this rearranging was needed to make the article’s lead more of a lead. Hope that clarifies my objective. Marshens (talk) 00:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Marshens. Why would we want to copy Atlanta's lead for Minneapolis? (There are a number of good reasons why I disagree but would like to understand why you selected Atlanta.) Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:08, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I have Atlanta as a general example. Not an exact copy. It provides, more or less, a template for what makes a good lead. The Minneapolis lead must cover what the city is known for. Like its history. Atlanta’s lead covers what they city in known for, like it’s historic center for industry, which is very similar to Minneapolis. The current one for Minneapolis is more of a factoid than a chief and important fact. Marshens (talk) 18:42, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Marshens, I still don't know why you want to follow Atlanta. Wikipedia's article for Atlanta has been rated B-class and C-class. That's not good enough to justify changing the lead in this one, which is a Featured Article. Why don't you read up on WikiProject Cities, specifically the US Guideline at WP:USCITIES? I'm sorry but you haven't been able to explain your changes, and I'll continue to revert them because they don't follow the WikiProject guidelines that we're lucky to have. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:35, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I was not aware of that. Thank you for informing me. I added a very small clarification of where the confluence was. I believe what is there now is the best lead possible then. Thank you. Marshens (talk) 21:38, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Marshens, in their using Atlanta as an example, is referencing only the lede of the Atlanta article, not the entire work. They probably could have referenced a different, highly-rated article's lede. Surely, one can't be comparing the rating of the entire Atlanta article to a single, small portion of this article. 97.90.28.191 (talk) 04:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Possible change

While I think the current lead is fine, I've read through it a few times and thought of a potential alternative. I can see how "most populous city" might not be ideal to have in the first sentence. An alternative could be this: Minneapolis is a city in the U.S. state of Minnesota. With a population of 429,954 as of 2020, it is the most populous city in the state and the 46th most populous in the nation. The seat of Hennepin County, Minneapolis lies on both banks of the Mississippi River, just north of its confluence with the Minnesota River, and adjoins Saint Paul, the state's capital.

I would also consider moving the current third paragraph (Seven counties encompassing... to be the second; this way, the general information about the greater metro area wouldn't interrupt two more city-specific paragraphs; the one about the water features and history and the one about the music and arts scenes. This could, however, put undue weight on non-Minneapolis-specific information, so I'm not certain if it would be better or worse. --Sable232 (talk) 17:55, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Sable232, I like the direction of proposed edit you made. I do not think moving metro paragraph up help clarity. I would keep where it is. Here are my adjustment to your edit, Minneapolis is a city in the U.S. state of Minnesota. Minneapolis lies on rolling, lake covered terrain on both banks of the Mississippi River. The city is just north of the river's confluence with the Minnesota River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state's capital. The seat of Hennepin County, Minneapolis is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the 46th most populous city in the US.

Please edit the above with what you think best. What there now can always stay. Danyess (talk) 23:38, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

We used to have something like Sable232's suggestion, and I would support that. Sorry, I like the sound of yours, Danyess, but can't agree with your view of the terrain. "Rolling" doesn't apply to a virtually flat city. Better to stick to the facts. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:35, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

SusanLesch and Sable232, I do strong support Sable232’s changes. I add it in the article now. Thanks, Danyess (talk) 02:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Danyess, in the future, please do not make a change while discussion is underway. --Sable232 (talk) 22:29, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Photo for historical section?

There is no photo in the historical section, which includes the building of Ft. Snelling. It's a large section and IMO could use one, perhaps this one:

Fort Snelling 1844-Af000248

I find it interesting that there appears to be a wigwam frame in the foreground. I know that a lot of work went into this article and more than likely the editors here are well aware of all the photos that depict early history of the city, but I thought I would just put this out anyway and see if there was any interest. Sectionworker (talk) 10:20, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

That's not Minneapolis. Jonathunder (talk) 02:07, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

From my understanding, historicaly Ft. Snelling was considered to cover both sides of the river and the names of Mpls. and St. Paul came some years later. In fact, at one point when the men were getting sick they were housed across the river at Coldwater Spring just down from Minneapolis Falls where fresh water was available. Sectionworker (talk) 09:23, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Demographics

Hi, Bneu2013. Can you please explain your recent edit to "condense table and change terminology"? When I look at the source, the US Census Bureau, under P1 RACE, we're given only numbers (no percents). Manually, 255,704 / 429,954 = 0.59472408676277 or 59.5 percent white. So why did you change that to 58% white? And why did you change the historical figures without changing the source? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:07, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Why is this table different? 249,581 white alone. [1] Same total population. CTF83! 17:13, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I changed it to include the non-Hispanic white population only. That is what most reliable sources refer to. The 2020 census resulted in some methodology changes, and as a result the Census Bureau has advised against directly comparing results to that of previous censuses. There seems to be a weak consensus to present the data differently. Bneu2013 (talk) 19:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Wilbur Ross

@Bneu2013:, that's great. Thank you for the information. Can you please give us citations for every number you changed? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Modified the source for the 2020 data, and reused for 2010 data. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:29, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Bneu2013: I'm sorry if my eyes are deceiving me but I think you changed numbers all the way back to 1950. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:37, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: - I only removed the White (total) figures for all years. I didn't change any categories between 1950 and 2000, as there is no statistical difference between the non-Hispanic and total populations for those figures until 2010, rounded to the nearest tenth. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you again, Bneu2013. I guess my complaints should go to Mr. Ross. I can barely believe it, "the Census Bureau has advised against directly comparing results to that of previous censuses." -SusanLesch (talk) 16:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Black and White

Hi Magnolia677. First a correction. Your edit summary is a bizarrely inaccurate reading of the rule you cite: "copyedit + capitalization should be consistent among races, per MOS:PEOPLANG". MOS:PEOPLANG really says: Ethno-racial "color labels" may be given capitalized (Black and White) or lower-case (black and white). There is no consensus either for or against using mixed case (Black and white). a statement that is followed by a lengthy explanatory note. Second, if that's the way you want it to read, would you please change every occurrence of white to White? This article can choose one and stick with it. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

It also says, "The capitalized form will be more appropriate in the company of other upper-case terms of this sort". Magnolia677 (talk) 16:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Right under "no consensus" for either or mixed case. I made the change. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:12, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: I missed one. Thank you for changing it. You are welcome to change all text saying "White" back to "white" if you feel it will improve the article. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Photo of restaurant kitchen

User:SusanLesch has re-inserted this photo--which SusanLesch photographed last summer--showing the backs of two cooks preparing food in the kitchen of a non-notable Minneapolis restaurant. A consensus of editors at MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE have agreed that "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding." This article is about a city in the mid-western United States, so I'm not sure how a photo of a restaurant kitchen is "significant and relevant". The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:15, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I see it differently: Two cooks at a kitchen of a non-notable Minneapolis restaurant is what makes this photo notable. Some editors must begin to realize that their own eyes may see photos differently than another person's eyes. Besides, if one were to run down looking at how relevant each photo was plenty of others would need to be thrown out as well--a bunch of guys playing hockey-how does that inform us? AFAIK everyone knows how that looks. Sectionworker (talk) 14:49, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Well spotted, Sectionworker. Maybe Magnolia objects because I took the photo. The guys playing hockey are indeed a lot less informative. I found one image that would be perfect for Wikipedia. Unfortunately it is difficult to get in the door, let alone at the perfect time to make a picture. That one picture out of dozens of reviews of this restaurant should be credited to Stephen Maturen for the Chicago Tribune. Perfect job! -SusanLesch (talk) 18:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Magnolia677, I'm sorry but you are out of touch. Here is the Chicago Tribune's estimation of what you call "a non-notable Minneapolis restaurant." Both are servers, not cooks, and their shirts introduce some difficult Dakota words explained in the caption. The chef is at far right, as the caption says.

The restaurant is Owamni by The Sioux Chef. It’s one of the most stunning destination restaurants in the world right now. I say this as not only a critic, but a chef who staged and dined at El Bulli in Spain when it ranked as the best restaurant in the world.

And the world is taking note. The New York Times named Owamni to its list of the best 50 restaurants in America in October, applauding efforts to “revitalize Indigenous cuisine and decolonize American cooking.” Vogue declared it a “must-visit dining destination.”

-SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 14 February 2022 (UTC) (edited)

@SusanLesch: Regarding the two newspapers you mentioned, if you look at the Wikipedia article for Chicago, there is just one photo of a restaurant, showing men lined up outside a soup kitchen during the Depression. At New York City, there is also just one photo of a restaurant--the Stonewall Inn--which is a National Monument, and the photo is of people outside the front. Both these photos are an "important illustrative aid to understanding" those cities, and they are "significant and relevant" to content within the article. Moreover, the photo of the Stonewall Inn is not of the backs of two employees picking up food from the kitchen. There are many great restaurants in the United States, and high-quality photographs of some of them would likely improve reader's understanding of the city, but Wikipedia is not a travel guide or a promo for "must-visit dining destinations". Magnolia677 (talk) 18:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree the photo should be removed. It's not very illustrative of much, and accordingly, it has to have a long caption that adds a lot of information that is not elsewhere in the article and does not give context to the photo. MB 20:13, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

That's a good idea, MB. The chef is there but the restaurant is left in the caption. My fault. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:22, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

• Magnolia677, I cite newspapers to establish notability, because you called Owamni non-notable, when the facts show you are wrong.
• I'll have to disagree with most of your complaint. I agree WP:NOTGUIDE. We're not writing a travel guide. This Culture section is long. It fleshed out the Arts section that passed FA review. WP:USCITIES recommends "Arts and culture" be divided into "several sections" and asks for two specifically including Tourism. On reflection, I think that among FAs for US cities (Chicago and NYC are B-class), the Boston#Culture section should be improved.
• Owamni resurrects indigenous culture and gently provides insight into Minneapolis. Cutting it out as you did puts a giant hole in this article. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:22, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: "Owamni resurrects indigenous culture"...sure, the same way Ponderosa Steak House resurrects the old west. Take a look at Owamni's menu. Are the smoked oysters fished from the Mississippi River using traditional indigenous methods, or are they flown in from the coast each morning just like every other restaurant in North America? And that better be a traditional "Dakota-style" ice cream sandwich on the menu. Every restaurant in the country has a gimmick, and Owamni seems to have found a winner. Please leave this promotional cruft out of the article. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:51, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

+:::::As a photo of a typical restaurant kitchen, it seems to me that it could be useful. Most of us don't get into restaurant kitchens often. I would ignore the writing on the shirts, though, other than typical shirt writing. It would seem appropriate for an article on restaurants or industrial kitchens (often very different from home kitchens). It doesn't seem so useful for an article on a city, though. Gah4 (talk) 22:19, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Gosh, I looked at the menu and I would have thought that Magnolia was arguing the opposite of what s/he is. BTW, oysters are salt water products and oyster mushrooms do grow in Minnesota. Sectionworker (talk) 22:35, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Pause for mercy. Magnolia677 has a chance to correct himself and apologize. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:17, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

The oyster mushroom. My mistake. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:29, 15 February 2022 (UTC).

Susan has more mercy than I do. I expect other editors to use good faith rather than make sarcastic comments and attempts to show how their own wisdom far exceeds that of the others here. This editor needs to reverse their delete until this mess is cleared up. Sectionworker (talk) 18:23, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

The image should not be included. It scarcely depicts anything - a seemingly nondescript kitchen, with most of the "action" being blocked by two people with their backs turned. The only things really being depicted are the hashtags on the back of the subjects' shirts, which have no relevance to the article text. --Sable232 (talk) 00:52, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

• Someone I can trust! Sable232, thank you. I am woefully aware of the inadequacy of my photo. Unlikely there are any other nerds on Wikipedia who would appreciate a glimpse of Sean Sherman and the shirts that display the city's birthplace in the Dakota language. I recommend to you this review in the Chicago Tribune.
• Magnolia677, you or anyone with intermediate editing skill easily could have resolved this days ago by moving the caption to prose. I've done that now. You were given a chance to apologize for wrong-headed comments, and instead you chose to draw a phony line of consensus. Once again you've given us too much tendentious editing, and sadly, I find this uncharitable bullying to be reprehensible. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:34, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Owamni continued

@SusanLesch: You added, "Sherman and Dana Thompson in 2021 opened Owamni by The Sioux Chef, overlooking Saint Anthony Falls (Dakota: Owámniyomni, to reanimate Native American cuisine and decolonize indigenous food." What makes this restaurant--which has been in business for just one year--notable enough to be included in the article? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:46, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Sherman and Thompson worked for five years to open; they've been in the news more than a year. They built a miracle. Regarding WP:GNG:

For 2021:

• Esquire Chef of the Year
• New York Times 50
• Star Tribune 2021 restaurant of the year

For 2022:

• La Liste 2022 award

Star Tribune's Jon Cheng: "The Minneapolis restaurant is garnering international attention, but to call it the "hot new" restaurant is a disservice. ⋆⋆⋆ ½ " -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: May I ask why you would translate the name of a local restaurant into another language? Also, what does "decolonized" food mean? Magnolia677 (talk) 19:42, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Please excuse me if I stop answering questions now. Google has a lot more information than I do if you're interested. I don't understand "translate the name of a local restaurant into another language." I made a typo (missing close parens, now fixed). Zagat says decolonized food is "dishes made without refined sugar, wheat flour, dairy, beef, chicken, and pork." -SusanLesch (talk) 20:25, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: As best as I can tell this disputed copy was present in the article when it was awarded the FA rating, is that correct? I note that Susan has supplied even more evidence to support her information. Can I assume that you had already done research and were aware of what she supplied but did not find it adequate? What research other than this and the menu did you do? Thanks. Sectionworker (talk) 16:13, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

The 2007 FA reviewed version is found linked from "Article milestones" found at the top of the talk page. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:44, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I will spit right out what my feelings are on edits to FA articles. I have a big problem with editors that come along and make changes to FA articles without presenting a well-thought out reason with good RS to back it up on the talk page. However, this editor has not replied to my earlier note so I can only assume that they did not do any research at all. I've never been involved in a FA article because I have the brains to know that I'm not that good. But I also have the brains to know that when editors such as SandyGeorgia (talk · contribs) are involved you can be certain that the article had a good going-over. But if something is found it needs to show that the editor has done some research around what they are bringing up. Sectionworker (talk) 00:18, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

The restaurant text looks fine to me. There are, though, some indications that Magnolia677 misunderstands various aspects of Wikipedia editing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:45, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Please detail the misunderstandings regarding this article. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 08:54, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I didn't mention "this article"; Wikipedia:Five pillars is what I had in mind overall. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:56, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Racial facts

Below are some racial facts which may belong in the article (I think they do) or at least in the See also section:

• History of the Hmong in Minneapolis–Saint Paul Highest urban population in the world

Do you have a source? Hmong are mentioned in Demographics but we'd need a source to expand that. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:53, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

• History of Somalis in Minneapolis–Saint Paul Highest Somali population in the U.S.

Demographics says "As of 2019, more than 20,000 Somalis call the city home." sourced to the US Census Bureau. Can you please provide a source for your ask? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:51, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

• American Indian Movement AIM had its start in Mpls Sectionworker (talk) 14:27, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

We cover AIM here. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

OK, good on AIM. For the other two I used only our articles for research. I know that bringing that sort of information up to date in a news article is unlikely. Certainly I trust your judgement as you have just finished putting many hours of work into this article, but if those facts are correct, in the US and in the world, it seems they could use a sentence as was done for AIM. Sectionworker (talk) 19:10, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

No deal. Per WP:NOTSOURCE, we need sources before including these. Why don't you find sources and add them? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:13, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh please, I wasn't trying to make a "deal". I am well aware that we do not use WP for RS and you don't need to remind me of something so obvious. I will read our articles for starters and see where that takes me. Sectionworker (talk) 18:36, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

This is from the lead of Hmung people: "The 2010 U.S. Census stated there were 66,000 ethnic Hmong in Minneapolis-St. Paul, giving it the largest urban Hmong population in the world." The Pioneer Press is the source. Sectionworker

The International Institute of Minnesota says:"There may be as many as 35,760 to 150,000 Somalis living in Minnesota with 80% residing in Minneapolis, likely the highest concentration of Somalis in the U.S. The majority of Somalis live in the Cedar Riverside, Phillips, and Elliot Park neighborhoods of South Minneapolis. Increasingly, Somali families can be found moving to Metro area suburban communities — Eden Prairie has close to 100 Somali families — and rural Minnesota.(Last updated January 2017)" [[2]]Sectionworker (talk) 22:15, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Lead

I have not re-examined the entire article, but the lead needs a rewrite. While dedicating an entire paragraph to the counties surrounding the Twin Cities area (off-topic), it does not cover all of the most important aspects of the article/city. It focuses on the arts, Floyd, population, and gives us nothing on other aspects like economy, demographics, geography, education, government, climate, etc. I don't know what "perserved its financial clout" means, or how that is cited in the article. A list of artists in the lead is name dropping of limited significance for the lead. Too much art, one sentence on Chavin suffices, and the rest needs to be better rounded out. @SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Sandy Georgia: I agree with your thoughts on the lead! I have rewritten the lead down below to be more encompassing. Please let me know your thoughts on this, edit it as you wish, and put it into the article once you feel it is worthy. Here are some reliable sources links I think would be helpful when crafting a new lead: www.mnhs.org/millcity/learn/history/minneapolis-riverfront, www.mentalfloss.com/article/70549/25-things-you-should-know-about-minneapolis-and-st-paul, and www.exploreminnesota.com/minneapolis-st-paul-area. I greatly appreciate your help in making this new lead. Marshens (talk) 19:21, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead Draft:

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ) is a city in the U.S. state of Minnesota. Abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks and waterfalls, Minneapolis became a marketplace for timber and the flour milling capital of the world.. The county seat of Hennepin County, Minneapolis lies along both banks of the Mississippi River, just north of its confluence with the Minnesota River, and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. The city has a population of 429,954 as of 2020, it is the most populous city in the state and the 46th most populous in the United States.

Known for its cold, snowy winters and humid summers, Minneapolis has one of the nation's best park systems. Many of these parks are connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. Several large corporations call Minneapolis home leading to the city and the region being regarded by some as the primary business center between Chicago and Seattle.

The city uses a mayor council government system. A majority of the city, as of the last 50 years, has been considered as a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party stronghold. Political leaders from both parties in Minneapolis have gone to hold various other major positions in government: such as Walter Mondale, Hubert Humphrey, and Arne Carlson. Jacob Frey (DFL) has been mayor since 2018.

Minneapolis is home to some renowned entertainment venues; including the Guthrie Theater and the First Avenue nightclub. It also has a robust library system, several universities, and the stadiums of some professional sports teams.

In May 2020, the murder of George Floyd, a Black man, by Derek Chauvin, a White officer of the Minneapolis Police Department, occurred in the city. It resulted in global protests and put Minneapolis and racism in the national and international spotlights. '

References

Per a thoughtful conversation with SandyGeorgia over at their talk page, a few grammatical and minor organizational changes (among other minor adjustments) will be made to the above draft. Then, once SandyGeorgia deems it as now fully ready, it will be officially inserted into the article. -- Marshens (talk) 20:30, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Catching up here now. The weight in the lead is off, and it isn't a summary of the article. It's also name dropping individuals indiscriminately. I haven't checked, but if (as Marshens says) everything in the draft above is already in the article, and cited in the article (so that the cites don't have to be repeated in the lead), then I suggest tightening the prose, and expanding the scope of the lead. The George Floyd paragraph sentences are not tight; I cleaned them up without changing any meaning or losing any content or context. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead draft 2

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ) is the largest city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. Abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks and waterfalls, Minneapolis had its origins in timber and as the flour milling capital of the world. It adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital. With 429,954 inhabitants as of 2020, it is the 46th most populous city in the nation. Prior to European contact, the Dakota Sioux were the region's sole residents; French explorers arrived in the region in 1680 and were followed by other European-American settlers. The construction of Fort Snelling in 1819 spurred growth in Saint Anthony Falls; Minneapolis incorporated in 1867 and joined with St. Anthony in 1872.

Minneapolis is a cultural and economic center of the north central region of the United States. Five Fortune 500 corporations are headquartered in the city, which is the second largest economic center in the Midwest. Minneapolis is home to the renowned Guthrie Theater, as well as the First Avenue nightclub, the Minneapolis Institute of Art, the Walker Art Center and the Minnesota Orchestra. The city hosts four professional sports teams. Minneapolis has one of the nation's best park systems, many of which are connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. It has cold, snowy winters and humid summers.

The main campus of the University of Minnesota is in the city along with other institutions of higher learning. Two light rail lines and one commuter rail line connect downtown and the University with St. Paul, the Mall of America and Minneapolis–Saint Paul International Airport in Bloomington, and several other suburbs. Minneapolis has eight hospitals, four ranked among America's best: Abbott Northwestern Hospital, Children's Hospitals and Clinics, University of Minnesota Medical Center, and University of Minnesota Masonic Children's Hospital.

Minneapolis is a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (DFL) stronghold. The city uses a mayor council government system. Jacob Frey (DFL) has been mayor since 2018. The May 2020 murder of George Floyd, a Black man, by Derek Chauvin, a White officer of the Minneapolis Police Department in the city sparked global protests and put Minneapolis and racism in the national and international spotlights.

SandyGeorgia, thank you for such a well-written second draft of the lead. I have done some combing through talk page archives and countless previous versions of this article dating back to 2009 for some further inspiration and guidance. There are just some things in your lead that were done in the past, but eventually thrown out in consensus by our "editing forefathers". Needlesstosay, I really love your draft and think it is extremely close to being perfect. Once you or any other editors who wish to speak have had an opportunity to make any last edits to this, I will put this into the article as we have discussed. Much appreciated -- Marshens (talk) 00:21, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead Draft 3

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ) is a city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. Abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks and waterfalls, Minneapolis had its origins in timber and as the flour milling capital of the world. It lies along both banks of the Mississippi River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. The city, inhabited by the Dakota Sioux prior to settlement, got its start due to the construction of Fort Snelling in 1819 spurring growth along Saint Anthony Falls. With 429,954 inhabitants as of 2020, Minneapolis is the most populous city in the state and the 46th most populous city in the nation.

Minneapolis has one of the nation's best park systems, and many of these park are connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. Biking and walking trails, some of which follow old railroad lines, run through many parts of the city, such as the historic mill district by Saint Anthony Falls and around the lakes of the Lowry Hill area. Minneapolis has cold, snowy winters and humid summers. Several large corporations have their main headquarters in Minneapolis. The city is home to the Guthrie Theater as well as the First Avenue nightclub. The city is also the host to four professional sports teams.

The main campus of the University of Minnesota is in the city limits along with other institutions of higher learning. The downtown area of Minneapolis is served by a light rail system. Minneapolis has some highly rated hospitals.

Minneapolis has been a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (DFL) stronghold for 50 years. The city uses a mayor council government system. Jacob Frey (DFL) has been mayor since 2018. The May 2020 murder of George Floyd, a Black man, by Derek Chauvin, a White officer of the Minneapolis Police Department in the city sparked global protests and put Minneapolis and racism in the national and international spotlights.

• Grammar problem: It has cold, snowy winters and humid summers. The word It refers back to either Saint Anthony Falls, or Lowry Hill, which I don't think is what is meant.
• There are more than "a few other institutions of higher learning"; the sentence works with omission of "a few".
• Minneapolis also has some of the best hospitals in the country, won't work. It has several hospitals that are highly rated, or rated among the best. The change in wording from my version to yours is small, but the difference is big. Maybe you can say "several highly rated hospitals"? Or else, go back to the wording that is cited in the article. Or the wording I had. Minneapolis does not have a top-rated hospital; we have to take care with "best". Top 20, no Minneapolis.
• Minneapolis, as of the last 50 years, has been a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (DFL) stronghold. Still awkward. --> Minneapolis has been a Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (DFL) stronghold for 50 years ... maybe ?
• I think it a mistake to drop the wording I had about transit, since pretty much The Whole World thinks the Mall of America is in Minneapolis, and the transit wording lets you subtly mention that it's not. Not fussed though.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:58, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia: Thank you for your advice. The changes you have suggested have been implemented. I did not, however, add back in about Mall of America. A former editor wrote in 2011 that adding Mall of America does not make sense due to its non-existent impact on the culture and economy of the City of Minneapolis itself. I am going to defer to their view unless there is any groundbreaking new information. Does this in your opinion seem ready to add? Marshens (talk) 01:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• It can't straddle both banks of the river; that's not proper English. It either straddles the river, as I wrote, or it "lies along both banks" as you wrote, but the problem with that, is most readers won't know what you mean by "both banks".
• has its origins in timber --> had its origins.
• Awkward construction, not grammatically sound, jumps from the Dakota to Snelling, gerunding rather than direct prose, suggest you go back to my version: Originally inhabited by the Dakota Sioux, the city got its start due to the construction of Fort Snelling in 1819 spurring growth along Saint Anthony Falls.
• Another problem with what the it refers back to (my fault): With 429,954 inhabitants as of 2020, it is the largest in the state and the 46th most populous city in the nation. ... and ... largest what ?
• Also is almost always redundant: see User:Tony1/How to improve your writing Minneapolis also has some highly rated hospitals such as Abbott Northwestern Hospital, Children's Hospitals and Clinics, University of Minnesota Medical Center, and University of Minnesota Masonic Children's Hospital. --> Abbott Northwestern Hospital, Children's Hospitals and Clinics, University of Minnesota Medical Center, and University of Minnesota Masonic Children's Hospital are the city's highly rated hospitals. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:35, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  Or better, since the lead doesn't name the Universities and doesn't name the Fortune 500 businesses, why name the hospitals at all? Minneapolis has four highly rated hospitals; there's an inconsistency in naming them while naming nothing else. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:37, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, your suggested edits have been made. Any final changes or is it ready to be added? -- Marshens (talk) 02:04, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

It seems a bit short, but serviceable. The article is over 8,000 words of prose; I'd expect a lead of about 400 words; this is 325. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:12, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Ok. I agree with you. I will add this into the article. Thanks for your help finishing this up. Marshens (talk) 02:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't consider it finished; it's too short, and you removed most of my suggestions. I would hate to see it chunked up again with the kind of name dropping and off-topic (about the entire metro area) that is in there now. You may find it wiser to get it right the first time, rather than rushing to put something in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:42, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for alerting me that I accidentally put in an earlier version. Once I have time, I will reinstate your edits. Even though this is not “final”, it is a great improvement and a perfect start. Thanks again for your help and hope to use your counsel again. Marshens (talk) 05:12, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

FA issues persist

The article is *much* improved from the notice I left over a year ago, but needs a thorough copyedit; perhaps WP:GOCE can be brought in. There are still maintenance tags. Redlining and covenants are mentioned in two different sections, and racial issues in about three sections; better overall organization is needed. There are some instances of unnecessarily loaded or off-topic language (for example, this is not Hubert Humphrey's article). Working with an experienced copyeditor (someone accustomed to working at the FA level) might help assure this article is at FA standards. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:36, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• What secondary source has mentioned this? As of 2020, Minneapolis–St. Paul area is the second largest economic center in the Midwest, behind Chicago.[134] If none, this is original research and WP:UNDUE. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:50, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
• Encyclopedia Britannica is not an adequate source for a Featured article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
• This sentence doesn't say anything; the source provides some material that can be eked out into something meaningufl. Philanthropy and charitable giving are part of the community.[189] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
• A 2020 crime wave is mentioned; wasn't 2021 worse? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:27, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

The article is vastly improved since my 2020 note, and is no longer in urgent need of a featured article review, but there are still pressing items that should be addressed. Unwatching; please ping me if my feedback is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)