Talk:Ukraine

pronunciation of Taras Shevchenko

Is [tɐˈrɑz ɦrɪˈɦɔrowɪtʃ ʃeu̯ˈtʃɛnko] correct? Why isn't Тарас tɐˈrɑs? And how is Леся Українка pronounced? --Espoo (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Suggest you ask at Talk:Taras Shevchenko Chidgk1 (talk) 15:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Remove “Pre-war” from description of the size of Ukraine.

Describing the size of “pre-war” Ukraine is tantamount to accepting Russian claim to Ukrainian territory. To say ukraine WAS a certain size is incorrect. Ukraine IS an internationally recognized size, which includes all occupied and illegally annexed territory. “Pre-war” must be removed from the opening paragraph, if this page isn’t run by Russian bots. 174.208.227.195 (talk) 17:09, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:43, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

“Prior to the Russian invasion” is just as problematic. The only accurate way of describing this is “Ukraine covers an area of..” Explain to me why people disagree. Wolf359Locutus (talk) 16:25, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Simply put, if you don't control a territory it ain't yours. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:19, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Simply put, nonsense. That is not how this works.

Futhermore, the statement "prior to the war" is factually incorrect as the war is going on right now: it has not yet ended. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 11:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I have put the word "ongoing" back in. As for the rest please read the "consensus" link above Chidgk1 (talk) 12:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Sure it is. Ukraine might not like it. You might not like it. Hell, I might not like it. The UN might even speak against it. But the fact on the ground is that that region is functionally part of Russia now. In other words, "internationally recognized" means nothing if you can't back it up. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:25, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources routinely and consistently state these territories are still Ukrainian. The country still exists, and the front lines are fluid. This is a Pandora's box of original research. Tartan357 (talk) 04:58, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the front lines are fluid. Which is why you can't say what the area of Ukraine currently is. The only definitive statement you can make is what it was before the war started. And your statement that "prior to the war" is factually incorrect due to the war being ongoing is nonsense. Events of peacetime are just as much "prior" to a war that has just begun as they are to a war that has concluded. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Changed from "prior" to "at the start of" the invasion. Those are the most recent borders we have that were steady and unchanging. That's all there is to it. The point of that is that we can't say what the borders currently are, so I have always been in agreement with you there. Tartan357 (talk) 15:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Section on 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine needs to be re-instated

While Putin has asked that Wikipedia not list Russia's invasion of Ukraine as an "invasion," I think that this has been the most notable war in recent Ukrainian history, and that it deserves its own section in this article again. It had its own section from February through August then without any discussion here, others deleted this section and muddled up the recent history of Ukraine so that it's not even in chronological order any more. The person who tried to kill this article around the end of July by trying to merge it with another article did so anonymously without even a user-name. Thoughts? Perhaps this article needs more editorial restrictions? Silly-boy-three (talk) 21:48, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Re anonymous I assume you mean the rename request. That was overwhelmingly rejected. I don't think this article needs more restrictions. As for history if you have a specific request feel free to ask in "change X to Y" format. Or there are plenty of minor fixes which would be very useful on other articles to increase your number of edits so you could then presumably edit this article yourself. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

First Reference to the Russo-Ukraine War

The article introduction mentions "pre-war" before mentioning the Russo-Ukrainian War. The terrority that is the Ukraine has been a part of several wars, including World War II. The introduction could benefit from a proper first Reference. 173.72.189.180 (talk) 23:37, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I assume your request is to change "pre-war" to "pre-Russo-Ukrainian War". If not please clarify. But I'll let someone else answer.Chidgk1 (talk) 14:42, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

 Note: since the phrase pre-war Ukraine is used twice in the intro section (and the phrase has already been discussed on this talk page once above) this is probably a good discussion topic here but it's not really an edit request until there are suggested changes (see making requests). Hopefully one of the 250+ active watchers of this page can chime in with some proposed improvements or be bold and just make them. Closing this for now but please re-open or submit a new one with specific changes if needed. --N8_wilson 🔔 03:50, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 September 2022

The introduction of the article states that "Despite having a free-market economy, Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe by nominal GDP per capita". This implies that free market/laissez-faire policies are synonymous with a strong economy, which is a highly politically biased thing to state, and is also contradicted within the same sentence as it then goes on to states that Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe. As such, the part of the sentence before the comma should be removed. 49.228.97.45 (talk) 16:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done Madeline (part of me) 15:40, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

white stork as a national bird of Ukraine

Hello,
I cannot understand if the white stork is a national bird of Ukraine (perhaps not the only one); in 2019 it was portrayed in the PostEurop EUROPA series stamps that had a "national birds" theme that year.

more about this here:
Talk:White_stork#peace_symbol_on_first_russian_PostEurop_1995_stamp
--151.44.32.191 (talk) 22:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

151.44.32.191 I guess it would be a nice pic for the biodiversity section - but before we decide have you got a cite re national birds and what should the caption be? I am going to let another editor decide as I don't know whether the bottom right "Z" is offensive nowadays. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Reword sentence with "five-digit inflation rates"

Change "and suffered five-digit inflation rates" to "and suffered from hyperinflation that peaked at 10,000 percent in 1993". Current phrase is too generalized so as to be inaccurate. Also, its citation is a dead-link. Please add or exchange with archived link. Grorp (talk) 00:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: Added the archive link. Another editor should review the change in wording. SWinxy (talk) 18:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Grorp Done thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Map

How is crimea claimed “but not controlled” prior to the 2022 invasion? It’s been controlled for 8 years now Goblintear (talk) 08:16, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

The subject of this article is Ukraine, not Russia. CMD (talk) 09:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh. U right Goblintear (talk) 12:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Area

"Prior to the Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukraine covered approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi), and was the eighth-most populous country in Europe, with a population of around 41 million people."

This is incorrect. Ukraine still covers approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi). The United Nations General Assembly quite unambiguously recognized territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders and reject the annexation of the peninsula. No reasoning is provided as to why this article should consider territory occupied by Russia as dispited except for a mere statement that it is "disputed." Disputed by whom? An occupation government? DoctorWhutsup (talk) 11:03, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Hope new title above is better - if not feel free to change back. Please could you say exactly what change you want in change "X" to "Y" form, for example change ""Prior to the Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukraine covered approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi), and was the eighth-most populous country in Europe, with a population of around 41 million people." to "Ukraine covers approximately 600,000 square kilometres (230,000 sq mi). Prior to the Russo-Ukrainian War it was the eighth-most populous country in Europe, with a population of around 41 million people." Chidgk1 (talk) 11:57, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, the new title is much more appropriate.

Your version is perfectly fine since it is now more factually clear and presents accurate representation of events, including unfortunate population shortage. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 12:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Personally I would support the example change but it will be best if you get a consensus otherwise someone else might just revert it. Chidgk1 (talk) 12:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template.

Annexed territories

• File:Europe-Ukraine (actual control).svg

I suggest this image could possibly replace the image at show map of Europe section if or when we are shown a map of the borders Russia has annexed. --Aaron106 (talk) 14:52, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that the full extent of Russian claims should be on the map, and not just occupied territories.--Zyxrq (talk) 16:20, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Obviously not, and stop that nonsense. You cannot just declare other territories are yours, it's as simple as that. Ukraine's borders are the same now as in 2000 and 2010. WP has become very sloppy at keeping the distinction between international law and fascist murderers. We do not strive for some imaginary neutrality between legality and criminals. Jeppiz (talk) 17:09, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I don’t believe this would necessarily be an endorsement of the annexation. The map for [[Russia]] has already added these disputed territories - it’s only fair that these are acknowledged in Ukraine’s as well. The international community has already condemned the referendums that have led to the annexation of Ukrainian territory, and there could be a fair chance that the recent “incorporations” may not last long. The reason WP is “sloppy” is because Wikipedia strives to maintain its political neutrality, and its importance in providing the hard facts in a complicated conflict (see: the Russian version) means it should remain as such. It is possible to acknowledge there is disputed territory without condoning or condemning. חביתוש ~ Havitush (talk) 17:39, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Russian claims are irrelevant, because Geneva conventions do not allow anything what Russian government have done. Geneva conventions clearly and unequivocally describe what occupation administration is allowed to do and what is not. Referendums and annexations are not allowed. Therefore, all these actions are null and void from a point of view of international law.

With regard to Crimea, there is one historical analogy that people usually forget: Annexation of Moldavia by Romania in 1918. Like annexation of Crimea, the Country Council vote occurred in the presence of the foreign (Romanian) army, so the analogy with annexation of Crimea is very obvious. What makes that analogy even more close is the fact that the annexation of Moldavia by Romania was not internationally recognized: it was not recognized by the the US and by most Western states, as well as by the USSR, and that is why nobody (except some Romanian nationalists) speaks about "restoration of historical integrity of Greater Romania".

I understand that early XX century standards are hardly applicable to XXI century events, however, we should be more or less consistent, so Crimea (which was annexed illegally, but some procedure was observed, at least formally) and other territories, which were literally conquered, and then "annexed", should be painted differently. Paul Siebert (talk) 17:42, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I now believe I have misunderstood the conversation at hand. I was not agreeing with Zyxrq’s observation that the full extent of Russian claims should be acknowledged, because, well… that’s pretty much all of Ukraine, as far as myself (and probably others) are aware. However, the attempt by Russia to claim territory via referendum, widely condemned as illegitimate and a sham, should be acknowledged as this has now created an active territory dispute that has taken the current war in a new direction.

I can appreciate your educated and academic perspective on this, Paul, and it’s clear you have more knowledge of the situation (and a lot more historical context) than I do - I’m just an average Joe putting their two pence into current world events - but I believe the significance of this annexation should be acknowledged through the addition of an up-to-date map. From what I can see, it looks like this territory is going to be out of Ukrainian hands for a good while, if the annexation of Crimea and nuclear threats are anything to go by. חביתוש ~ Havitush (talk) 17:56, 30 September 2022 (UTC)