Talk:Andrew Tate: Difference between revisions
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No YouTube links. The onus is on YOU to find a proper source for what you want included. You should know all this by now considering how long you’ve been editing. [[User:RossButsy|RossButsy]] ([[User talk:RossButsy|talk]]) 20:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC) |
No YouTube links. The onus is on YOU to find a proper source for what you want included. You should know all this by now considering how long you’ve been editing. [[User:RossButsy|RossButsy]] ([[User talk:RossButsy|talk]]) 20:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC) |
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: Then use the article from Newsweek like I originally provided and don't provide the numbers. [[User:Abobeck11|Abobeck11]] ([[User talk:Abobeck11|talk]]) 20:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC) |
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Andrew Tate is 6'1"
Andrew Tate is 6'1", that's what all the most reliable sources and his past kickboxing career data indicates https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19442356/andrew-tate-height/ https://www.sportsmanor.com/boxing-jake-paul-vs-andrew-tate-size-height-and-weight-difference-between-the-two-rivals/ https://footballpink.net/jake-paul-vs-andrew-tate/
If that wasn't enough, here's his face off with Jake Paul (6'1") where they're roughly the same height, and Andrew has at best half an inch on Jake: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kiAzwBk52T8 Pol Cəl (talk) 16:36, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- These are not reliable sources (unfortunately); and Tate does appear taller in that video (which would be WP:OR anyway) DFlhb (talk) 22:34, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Check the sources listed on the page and tell me if they're more reliable than the ones I posted. Also, they don't appear to be 2 inches apart. Their height difference is much smaller than that. Pol Cəl (talk) 19:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Here's a video from another angle, so you can see that their height difference is clearly way less than even a single inch.
https://www.tiktok.com/@alphamaleslifestyle/video/7167040472098163973?_t=1 Pol Cəl (talk) 00:48, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- ... where they are wearing shoes. If we're going to go by WP:OR and online videos, then here's a video of Tate fighting Franci Grajš, who is 6 foot 3, where both are clearly the same height. DFlhb (talk) 01:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Andrew has very bad posture AkaneVento (talk) 16:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
Possible Misplaced Source
In the article, it states that "[t]wo women were found" during the initial search of the subject's property in April. From a quick skim, I couldn't see where in the three sources listed (The Guardian, The Washington Post, and BuzzFeed News) that anyone was found at his properties during the search in April (although they do support the other information in that section). I think this might have been left over from an edit that used this source (an example page that retains this source is here). The Libertatea source seems to have been removed from the current version of the page, although I'm not sure why. Is there another source for who was found at his house in April so that we can add a citation here (assuming I didn't miss it in the existing sources), or if not, can we just add the Libertatea source back in to support that statement? IDontHaveAnAccountYet (talk) 06:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- The Libertatea citation was later changed to another article, which named one of the alleged victims, so I removed it in this diff; I thought this was supported by the other citations. Will bring back the older Libertatea link. DFlhb (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Update: one problem is that the Libertatea citation I re-added says they were found in Tate's villa, when a recent The Times article clarifies they were found at the second property.[1] This is corroborated by numerous Romanian sites, which we can't cite due to their quality, but which also say they were in a different property.
- The problem is that The Times only mentions the American woman, not both. I think we can remove the "other woman" detail, since it's now covered by the "6 women" mention in the next paragraph. I'm uncomfortable basing a detail on one Romanian source (Libertatea) which does things like naming alleged victims (highly unethical) in other articles; we could add the "second woman" detail back in when it's been corroborated by more reliable sources. DFlhb (talk) 09:42, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Big Brother Removal
Should the article not take this newly released information into account? https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/andrew-tate-kicked-off-big-brother-rape-investigation-1234656041/ D.C.Rigate (talk) 12:57, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- I think we should wait for more reliable sourcing; Vice and Rolling Stone are not it. Shouldn't take too long. DFlhb (talk) 13:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
Fight name
Pinging @RossButsy and @TatesTopG. Tate's fighting name was indeed "King Cobra", not "Cobra" (see [2] and [3] for example). This nickname is also supported by Sherdog and Tapology, and can be heard yelled by announcers in various fight videos when he's introduced. DFlhb (talk) 19:51, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
A title of a YouTube video isn’t a reliable source. If his various social media handles are CobraTate and not King cobra tate then the former suffices. RossButsy (talk) 21:15, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- Interpreting his social media handle in this way seems like WP:SYNTH. I'll note that Luton on Sunday, June 12, 2011, page 67, says: "Andrew 'King Cobra’ Tate knocked out Jean-Luc Benoit to win the world ISKA light heavyweight title on home soil last Sunday." I was also not referring to YT titles, but to their contents, to show that there is no reason to doubt secondary sources are accurate for this claim. DFlhb (talk) 16:11, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- As a fighter he was King Cobra and that's all. I can confirm. .karellian-24 (talk) 20:11, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
Nationality
Why is "American-British" still being used? The term can't be used as it goes against guidelines for WP:CONTEXTBIO regarding a subject's nationality. It even mentions this in the article in the case of Isaac Asimov, as "Per the above guidance, we do not add ethnicity ("Russian-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance."
I've made several edits meaning to fix this but the reasoning given for reverting them is that it makes the sentences "clunkier", even though it is meant to be edited to follow guidelines, and that there is a total of 4 characters changed. So why exactly are the reversions being made? SpyroeBM (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- In Tate's case, he legally holds both nationalities; it is not an ethnicity, nor a statement of his origin. DFlhb (talk) 02:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
Vice is a serious provider?
Exclusive: Andrew Tate Was Arrested on Suspicion of Rape in the UK in 2015 .karellian-24 (talk) 02:36, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a RS. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:39, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
Also, transcripts from the brothers' file should be published?
Digi 24 is a reliable newspaper but I don't know what to say. https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/stenograme-din-dosarul-fratilor-tate-facute-publice-cei-doi-si-ar-fi-obligat-victimele-sa-isi-tatueze-numele-lor-2207105
Realitatea TV exclusively revealed other transcripts. https://www.realitatea.net/stiri/justitie/dezvaluiri-bomba-stenograme-cu-fratii-tate-cum-ademeneau-fetele-voi-fi-ultimul-barbat-din-viata-ta_63b6f6355c0b76331439de42 Realitatea TV is not a very serious channel, at the level of Digi 24, it is more like Fox in America. But the article is also picked up by HotNews, a serious newspaper (in this article, Hotnews puts the transcripts from Digi 24 and Realitatea TV on an equal footing). Both are national. https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential-26006796-odata-esti-mea-vei-mea-pentru-totdeauna-stenograme-din-dosarul-fratilor-andrew-tristan-tate.htm
.karellian-24 (talk) 02:50, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- The transcripts seem authentic, but we can't source things directly to them due to WP:BLPPRIMARY. Is there anything mentioned in there that you think should be included? We could try to find secondary sources for those claims. DFlhb (talk) 21:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
Is it fair to mention that the daughter of a TV mogul and former member of the Romanian parliament accused Andrew Tate of luring minors?
The national and reliable newspaper Adevărul took over the article written by this girl, now 19 years old, in a lesser known newspaper. Sources:
https://adevarul.ro/showbiz/vedete/andrew-tate-a-abordat-o-si-pe-fiica-lui-cozmin-2231663.html Full https://solidnews.ro/alte-stiri/2022/12/31/scandalul-telenovela-fratilor-tate-doua-certitudini-si-doua-intrebari-experienta-mea-cu-unul-dintre-ei/
Her father also confirms the story. .karellian-24 (talk) 02:44, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Mr Tate said on a podcast: “The reason 18 and 19-year-olds are more attractive than 25-year-olds is because they’ve been through less d***.”, according to The Independent. Andrew Tate denies comments on teenage women being more attractive as 'misogyny
.karellian-24 (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Seems undue unless WP:RS confirm that he knew she was 16, and that it went beyond Instagram DMs (neither of which are alleged in the linked piece). There's also the problem that the Adevarul piece is a straight republishing of an identical article on Click.ro, a notorious tabloid, with no analysis or further journalistic work (I'll note that Adevarul and tabloid Click.ro have the same owner). DFlhb (talk) 03:27, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
I can't modify the article because it is protected, so please do it instead of me
Wikipedia:SEALIONing from a Wp:spa; you can’t complain about neutrality and then throw in baseless claims of “radical leftism” Dronebogus (talk) 17:05, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
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"A self-described misogynist, Tate's controversial commentary has resulted in his suspension from several social media platforms.", this has a lot of problems and needs to be fixed. The "self-described mysoginist" shouldn't be there at all, it's ok to in someway point that a view that a lot of people have of him is that he is mysoginistic. It's also incorrect, he one time said he was a mysoginist and sexist in a podcast (A bit out of context bud he did) but "self described" doesn't make sense, if you had to write it, you should put it as "One time in a podcast Tate said he is a mysoginist" as you could put "One time in a podcast Tate said he is not a mysoginist" Saying that he got banned from social media platform because of his commentary is a non neutral point of view, a neutral point of view would be "Andrew got spendend from social media platforms, spokepersone of the company said it was because of hate speech etc" It should also be added that at the time there was a boom in popolarity, and his google searches from google trends were higher than world wide politicians, and there was a strong campaign and protest to deplatform him I would rewrite it like this: In August 2022, while in a sudden boom of popularity in Google searches and views, Andrew Tate got suspended (Or blacklisted) from major social media platforms following a strong outcry over his message, saying that it is "Extremely misogynistic" and "Harmful to the young generation of men" It would also be worth somehow noting that those tech platforms that banned him are radically leftist AkaneVento (talk) 22:20, 7 January 2023 (UTC) The sources that were used for this sentence are reliable. In case you think that you have better ones, provide them here. Just sharing your own opinion without stating other sources is not enough. Vestigium Leonis (talk) 00:09, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
"Radically leftist" would be a massively unencyclopedic opinion; we obviously can't include that. As for how to describe him, I thought the new compromise wording would spawn fewer talk page arguments; guess that wasn't the case ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ DFlhb (talk) 01:09, 8 January 2023 (UTC) |
Further clarification/s
In the Human trafficking section it should be mentioned the arrest in April regards the same investigation as the current one. The Tates were released pending further investigation which has been confirmed at the time by the DIICOT spokeswoman. [DIICOT press release 29/12/2022] Tate has also been charged with rape as well as human trafficking and forming an organized crime group. [Ref 12 BBC]
And the term "mansion" is not entirely accurate. It is a converted warehouse, chosen purposefully by the perpetrator because of its former use as a shooting range, and strangely somehow, gives the current owner the right to carry weapons on the premises. This is in contrast with all other private homes in Romania, guns are generally not allowed and they must be stored securely if the owner has a licence. From all the reporting available this seems to be his "main residence" in Romania among the network of addresses searched by the authorities, so I suggest describing it as such instead of "Tate's Pipera, Voluntari, Bucharest mansion". Keshetsven (talk) 06:13, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- The rape charge was already addressed in Talk:Andrew_Tate/Archive_6#Rape_charge, is incorrect, and was more correctly stated in later reporting; see WP:RSBREAKING for context. The current wording in our article is both more precise and more accurate.
chosen purposefully by the perpetrator because of its former use as a shooting range
also appears factually false, and "perpetrator" is a WP:BLP violation. Tate has claimed, on social media, that he registered the property as a shooting range. As far as I know, we have zero indication that this is true. And no one, neither Tate nor reliable sources, claims the property was a shooting range before his purchase. But all of this is besides the point, because I don't see what it has to do with the article. DFlhb (talk) 15:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
The rape change is going to be uncovered later, I accept that the wording is more accurate for now.
Second point was actually about wording around his Pipera mansion. Because "Pipera, Voluntari Bucharest mansion" is a very confusing description. The quoted text in green is part of my opinion, Talk Pages should allow discussion about wording in the article not police the wording in the talk page.
Also there is an update about his now 15 cars and 10 properties seized my the state. The reporting was done by the Associated Press. Should be reliable enough. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/romania-seizes-cars-tate-case-court-week-96266836
Keshetsven (talk) 00:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not policing your wording, I just don't see what a shooting range had to do with anything (though if you're referring to "perpetrator", see WP:BLPTALK). Will add the AP stuff, thanks. DFlhb (talk) 01:13, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Keshetsven I've addressed your proposal with my recent edit. DFlhb (talk) 09:04, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Excellent work 👍. Much more readable now. Keshetsven (talk) 00:25, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Love to hear it! DFlhb (talk) 01:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Block-evading sock TatesTopG
The block-evading sock TatesTopG (talk · contribs) has made a number of edits to this page [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]. Please check these edits and manually revert where necessary per WP:EVADE. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 00:45, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Good catch! Thank you DFlhb (talk) 01:55, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
All reverted now. RossButsy (talk) 00:54, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
On Romanian sources
It seems I was wrong to distrust Gândul as a source. BRAT.ro, an independent auditor, classifies them as "general news" rather than as a tabloid. I dug deeper, and many of their journalists have pretty solid resumés; it's also been quoted a fair bit without reservations (WP:UBO).
(I'll note that User:.karellian-24, who is Romanian, also disagreed on it being a tabloid).
I propose we use BRAT.ro to assess Romanian sources' general reliability. Though we should likely be slightly more careful, per the studies I linked previously, which show that journalistic standards are sometimes a little inconsistent among many Romanian outlets (even established newspapers). DFlhb (talk) 01:54, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Tate and Atheism
I'd like the add a sentence in the personal life section, after the sentence about his tithing to the Romanian Orthodox Church, something along the lines of "Tate later identified as atheist.
". I believe it's due because some of his louder comments on the Internet have been in favor of atheism, and he supposedly identified as atheist for years and years during the height of his popularity. I'm having trouble finding a reliable source, though, or any sources, honestly. Most of the results for "Andrew Tate" + "atheist" yield low quality reuploads from podcasts, as well as information about a book called "The New Atheist Novel" by someone also named Andrew Tate (I sincerely doubt it's the same Andrew Tate, though.. unless?). Are there any reliable sources that mention Tate being atheist? Or one we're already using, perhaps? Askarion ✉ 20:08, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Times, January 11, 2023:
- He told followers last year: “I am no longer an atheist. I am an orthodox Christian. For that reason, I go to church twice a week.” He allegedly claimed to donate more than £16,000 a month to the Romanian Orthodox Church.[9]
- From what I gather: atheist until maybe late 2021/early 2022 (depending on how accurate The Times is with dates), then identified as an Orthodox Christian, and in late 2022 converted to Islam. (Novel's not him though). DFlhb (talk) 14:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
British English
This article should use British English. Tate began his television, business, and kickboxing careers in the UK. He consistently speaks in British English and was originally only known in the UK. Not to mention sources covering his December 2022 arrest describe him as a Briton or a British citizen. There is no reason why the lede should say “organized crime” instead of “organised”. Asperthrow (talk) 14:32, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Support this change. He also consistently tweets with British spelling ("-ised"). DFlhb (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Fixing mistakes and typos
In the Criminal investigation section, 2015 British investigation paragraph, in one of the first lines it says "in the England" while it should obviously be "in England".
Also, the 2015 subsection should probably come before the 2022 one. Pol Cəl (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Misspelling in first paragraph
In the first paragraph, second sentence: "...promoting an "ultra-masculine, ultra-luxuious lifestyle".
Change to "ultra-luxurious" if there is any interest in spelling words correctly on this subject. Beadbop (talk) 11:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Fixed. DFlhb (talk) 13:00, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
War room
@Abobeck11: feel free to find a reliable source about said war room and not one that says “the details of what actually occurs inside the program are unknown” since you claim it’s a major source of income. RossButsy (talk) 18:02, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- He's claimed in several podcasts that he has two major online ventures, Hustler's University and the War Room, which has about 2000 members. 2000 members times around $5000 each is $10 million. There may not be sources to detail what happens in the War Room, but that doesn't mean its mere existence can't be mentioned in the article.Abobeck11 (talk) 18:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- So find a source for that then otherwise it shouldn’t be included. RossButsy (talk) 18:21, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. And since the numbers you’re mentioning are contentious then this discussion is over as far as I’m concerned. RossButsy (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- He says it in this podcast at around the 1:30:30 mark: [10]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPiBKpTvjc&t=5423&ab_channel=EntrepreneursSpeach. So it could be included as long as it's clear it's only "self-proclaimed" or "according to Tate himself". Abobeck11 (talk) 19:31, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
No YouTube links. The onus is on YOU to find a proper source for what you want included. You should know all this by now considering how long you’ve been editing. RossButsy (talk) 20:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Then use the article from Newsweek like I originally provided and don't provide the numbers. Abobeck11 (talk) 20:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
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