Talk:Shave and a Haircut

What is...?

Does anybody knows where this one-note melody comes from(try tapping it with your finger to recognize) - "| | ||| |||| ||" ?

I dont know the origin, but it's mentioned here -- taviso 09:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It's from the "Mambo" musical sequence in the gym scene from "West Side Story". Bernstein probably stole it from somewhere, but that's the first hearing of it I can remember.204.111.116.21 (talk) 17:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Most likely from a 1962 song called Let's Go (Pony). jej1997 (talk) 09:07, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

It says the 8-note version is a "complete song". What does that mean? I'd like to see some more music-theoretical analysis in this article. --131.193.179.146 23:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

How about this: the first five notes are a heroic clausula (dactyl + spondee) as in "esse videtur," and the "two bits" is another spondee. The clausula system of Latin prose rhythm gave rise to cadences in modern music.72.218.83.205 (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Match in the gas tank

I never saw the movie "What's eating Gilbert Grape." But I heard the "Match in the gas tank" almost three decades before the movie.

Around 1965 or so, I used to take some regular bus trips from Lacona, New York to a YMCA in Watertown to go to the swimming pool, then back again. Several people on the bus would sometimes sing a song about how a Ford is put together--kind of a "toe-bone's connected to the foot-bone" sort of thing. The next-to-last line in the song was "Motor in the Ford makes the wheels go 'round."

Then as sort of a coda, to the "Shave and a haircut" tune they'd sing "Match in the gas tank, [a single hand-clap] No Ford!" 140.147.160.78 16:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

Brown Bread?

I had never heard of 'shave and a haircut' so I assumed that this tune came from the 'Eye tiddley eye tie, eat brown bread' song. Does anybody have more information on that song? I couldn't find an article on it but it's difficult because the spelling isn't really well-defined. If it is the same tune then it could be mentioned in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelastic (talk • contribs) 15:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the same tune, but it's proving very difficult to find information about the song, sadly. 91.107.177.82 (talk) 21:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Media file

Is it just my browser, or does the media file miss the last note? "Shave and a haircut, two" - but no bits! Mittfh 18:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Shavehaircut.ogg was last updated in 2006 according to the cover page, so most likely just your browser.193.110.108.67 (talk) 07:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Mexican version 'citation needed'

Could the CN not be removed? Or if it needs to stay, what sort of citation would satisfy it? Guyal of Sfere (talk) 17:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've seen it in a book called Breaking Out of Beginner's Spanish. Maybe I'll add that as a citation. --Śiva (talk) 23:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at Picardía Mexicana (3rd ed., Libro Mex Editores, 1960), a quite informal take on mexican spicy humor by Armando Jiménez, there's an almost unmistakable reference to the "chinga a tu madre" tune, identified as "Maternal reminder." However, the notes are listed as C G# G# C B, and there's also a response, A C G G B♭ A.

This is on the erratum, on what would be, approximately, page 193, depending if you count the ripped pages, because that part it's not numbered (*quite* informal in the true spirit of it's contents, as I said ;). It's supposed to be a letter from a reader, though my bet would be the author wrote it. Whoever did it, perhaps he was not too good a music writer... but the five note response leads me to think that 50 years ago the chinga tu madre was sung to another tune, and later evolved to accommodate Shave and a Haircut, losing three bits in the process. Maybe. It's going to be interesting asking the old farts how they used to whistle to each other back then. ;) Chemtox (talk) 18:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Corrected grammar of "chinga (a) tu madre, cabrón" by adding the personal a before madre. It's not pronounced separately, as Spanish generally glides adjacent vowels together. But it is there, in theory, as is the case for all direct objects that reference humans, so it should be included in an written representation of the phrase. Xrlq (talk) 17:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm Mexican and I can confirm it's NOT dubious; in my country it IS used as an expletive. It is VERY true. ElObal (talk) 03:46, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, for Wikipedia, first-person accounts are original research and can't be used. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 03:29, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

"Unfortunately for Wikipedia," – FTFY. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.94.111 (talk) 03:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems this tune is very commonly used as an insult ("chinga a tu madre, cabrón") in Mexico, specially when in a car honk. However, it does not have this meaning in other countries of Latin America ("chinga a tu madre" is a very strong curse word in Mexico, but it's not common in the rest of Latin America). Pettrovich (talk) 06:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

A vs. A-flat

Is it definitely established which is the original? They are both often used. Kostaki mou (talk) 21:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If the musical notation shown is from the sheet music for "Cakewalk" (as stated in the image description) and that is indeed the original source then A-flat is the original. Gr8white (talk) 17:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

References getting out of hand

Not surprisingly, the "References" section is turning into a long, boring list of moments when Shave and a Haircut showed up in some movie/TVshow/song. A trivia pit - pointless. A couple of the items are worthwhile, but most aren't. Deciding on the cutoff will be interesting, of coursre. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we need another page which is a list of occurrences? Or should that be a wikipedia category?

Les Paul?

The shortest record is by Les Paul and Mary Ford, from the 1950s, with "Shave and a haircut" on one side of the record, while "Two Bits" is on the other side of the record. Interesting if true. Unfortunately I can find absolutely no evidence of such a record. I'll remove it as probably apocryphal (if someone knows this to be true please add back w/ a reference). Gr8white (talk) 20:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Further research reveals this to be partially true. I'll reword & add ref. Gr8white (talk) 21:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Two Bits?

If, as the article states, the origin of the lyrics is thought to be a 1939 Milton Berle song called "Shave and a Haircut—Shampoo", then where did the "two bits" come from? Captain Quirk (talk) 04:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

And what does "two bits" mean? Two bits of what? --Austrian (talk) 08:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It's 25 cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.155.176.119 (talk) 05:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I just added that definition to the article. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 10:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I always heard it as "six bits", not "two bits". ("Always", in my case, goes back to the early 1960s.) In fact, I never heard of the "two bits" variant until I stumbled across this page. Have you people who are researching the origin of this thing cast a sufficiently wide net so as to include a "six bits" reference? Malbuff (talk) 20:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow - I have never heard (or seen) anything other than "two bits" ... yet this is the sort of folk culture that can vary from place to place, so this isn't exactly conclusive. Can you find a linkable "six bits" reference? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Still looking for a definitive citation, but I did find reference to a 1940 play, written by one Warren Lee (b. 1908), director of the Black Hills (S.D.) Playhouse, entitled 'Shave and a Haircut, Six Bits'. The 1940 authorship date indicates that version was in use quite some time ago. See http://www.dwu.edu/sdlitmap/poet.html 204.111.116.21 (talk) 18:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

In the 1959-1963 TV series Dennis the Menace, Dennis often said "six bits". In fact that's what brought me to this page -- trying to determine how two bits changed to six. One example I have handy is season 1 episode 31, "Dennis Runs Away", about 5 mins in. 173.20.55.46 (talk) 22:41, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Presumably 6 bits was a more realistic price for a haircut ca. 1960... AnonMoos (talk) 23:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

What about 2 bits, 4 bits, 6 bits, a dollar. Obviously if you do the math a bit is 12.5 cents and therefore 2 bits is 25 cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.117.250.48 (talk) 02:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Two bits was popular slang for a quarter when I was growing up. The story I've always heard is it came from the Spanish "pieces of eight" which were used as currency in the Americas at one time. They could be split into eight pieces, each worth 12.5 cents. Gr8white (talk) 19:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Check the article two bits, which is linked here - that's explained there. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 23:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

It isn't "sixpence"? 207.59.211.146 (talk) 13:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

In UK I've usually heard it as "Shave and a haircut - two bob" - ie. Two Shillings - which means pretty much the same as "two bits" - I'd assumed two bits was 2 nickels or 2 dimes (British people like me can never tell which is which) - but clearly a coin reference. Have also here "I-tiddley I-tie That's It" and "Unzip a Banana - to-day".

Anyone know whether this ties in with tap dancing at all ? - it has that sort of choreography mnemonic feel about it

90.223.158.163 (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Another version I have seen is "Shave and a haircut, bay rum." Kostaki mou (talk) 18:41, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

As a child (circa 1960), I was taught:

Shave and a haircut, bay rum.

Strawberry shortcake, yum-yum.

--RoyGoldsmith (talk) 07:49, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Reverted changes made by 72.12.142.133

his changes said '(actually wikipedia is wrong, it's 1896)'. Even though i do not know whether or not he's right, i do think this is the wrong way of notifying us of this. NESFreak (talk) 19:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

What are those numbers about?

In the musical examples:

7 6 6 -6B 6 | R -7 567 R

C G G A♭ G | R B C R

"Shave and a hair-cut, two bits"

7 6 -5# 6 -6B 6 | R -7 567 R

C G F# G A♭ G | R B C R

"Gee, Off-i-cer Krup-ke, Krup you!" (from West Side Story)

what do all those numbers stand for. They don't seem to be any notation I know of. TIARABAMUN (talk) 09:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Cursus Planus

Whoever put the bit about the "esse videtur" clausula from classical Latin in the wrong section of this discussion page is dead-on right. In the middle ages, though, it's called the cursus tardus, and it comes thence into musical theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.180.48.247 (talk) 03:56, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Explanation

As I understood it, "Shave and a hair-cut, two bits", was a something that a kid would cry out outside a barbers...? A kid / adult that was somehow connected to the barbershop (a place that has obvious musical history) would sit outside with a harmonica or a drum or something and sing, "Shave and a hair-cut, two bits"...? This became a known phrase / entered the street lexicon / filtered down into poetry and songs &c.?
This would make a lot of sense. The problem I have is this: this fact about the origin of the expression is (perhaps) implied in a subtle way in the article, but not explicitly mentioned. Why not? Why is this simple piece of information about the history of the phrase not mentioned in the first couple of paragraphs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.4.168 (talk) 16:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence for this etymology, aside from "as I understood it"? If so, it would be a great addition. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 15:51, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I figured it originated as a coda at the end of a performance of a piece of barbershop music back in the days when its performers were affiliated with an actual barbershop, to remind people to use its services; although I'm not sure its usage was ever closely associated with that particular genre. B7T (talk) 03:06, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Certainly plausible, but without some evidence it's not really suitable for the article. It's possible to think up lots of plausible etymologies for virtually any phrase. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 15:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why, what, where, and how does this article need additional citations for verification? Hyacinth (talk) 18:04, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The article has ample sources for the history and frequent use of the tune, but no sources at all for the "Shave and a haircut" name: we should be told when the name came into use, what other names are known etc. Incidentally, here is the recorder piece Hoe-Down by Brian Bonsor which uses the phrase. Sussexonian (talk) 21:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

This has been in there for a while, with the footnote: In 1939, Dan Shapiro, Lestor Lee and Milton Berle released "Shave and a Haircut - Shampoo" [3] which featured the tune in the closing bars, and is thought to be the origin of the lyrics. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 23:25, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Trains on Youtube

If you search in youtube for "shave and a haircut" you will find a lot of videos with titles like "perfect shave and a haircut X train". Why is it? It's just that it is hard to play the horn or do they use melody's like some kind of comunication... someone knows something? Is it relevant? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned" Qpweortiyu (talk) 20:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

No idea what you mean. What would that search result have to do with it be difficult or easy to play the horn? Hyacinth (talk) 01:12, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

No, a lot of train engineers will toot the horn that way for videos in response to being waved at. For examples, check out railfanning videos made by AmtrakFanNEC927 LReyome254 (talk) 04:24, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Clave

• The rhythmic basis of "shave and a haircut", like the Charleston rhythm and the Bo Diddley beat, is the Latin American clave rhythm.

The above was removed as unsourced. Hyacinth (talk) 05:16, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The Clave (which was used as "Bo Diddley Beat") is of much more ancient african origin than "Shave and a Haircut". The context of its ancient african origins is described in the clave article. Thus, it was certainly not "derived" from "Shave and a Haircut" historically. If anything, then "Shave and a Haircut" may have been inspired by the Clave Rhythm, which (in different forms) was common in Afro-American musical culture at the time "Shave and a Haircut" was conceived. --Thewolf37 (talk) 09:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Bob

What are five bob? Hyacinth (talk) 23:04, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Five shillings - I added that. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Hyacinth (talk) 03:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Can someone help me with a edit / research

the "shave and a haircut two bits" needs to be changed and an additional article needs to be added for "dot code" the post civil war pre morse code

the origin of shave and a haircut two bits aka the barbers knock comes from the post civil war era and is a frequency signal hum the hand-set operators would use for sign-on sign-off aka coming/going in Dot code i do not have the time to do the research to fix this article or add one for dot code aka pre morse code but i am hoping one of you will. but this is the correct answer and a important part of the history of networking — Preceding unsigned comment added by M4dH4TT3r777 (talk • contribs) 06:26, 30 March 2012 (UTC) sorry about that frames were screwing up if i remember correctly

You only need to post your message on this talk page once. See: WP:C and WP:V for help on citing sources on Wikipedia. Hyacinth (talk) 01:06, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

if someone would kindly do the research/edit for this i will explain the correct answer to "two bits". shave and a haircut two bits aka the barbers knock comes from post civil war dot code (the predecessor to morse code) they would use hand-sets to transmit and each operator had their own style however the noise for "shave and a haircut two bits" was their operator signon/signoff signal so when they say two bits they mean 2 data bits as in computer terms. this is also why the knock is commonly used for coming/going even though people dont know it. ####!<---------------Self Signed By A Network Engineer available at M4dH4TT3r666@gmail.com ------> — Preceding unsigned comment added by M4dH4TT3r777 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Somebody should do the research, because this sounds like backronym-ish baloney. Would be very cool if true, though. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

no david its not baloney -M4dH4TT3r

The only real way I can think of to research this would be to talk to one of the few still alive telegraph operators. hmm, I'll come back later on this as I currently goto ITT tech which gets its name from internetional telephone and telegraph (ill ask around some of the older staff) — Preceding unsigned comment added by M4dH4TT3r777 (talk • contribs) 11:02, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure lots of the older guys were around in the Post Civil War Era (not) which ended in 1865 - Morse was using a fairly well developed code by 1845 Dash-dot-dot-dot dash-dash would be 8M in old Morse, or 6M in modern morse. I don't think this claim holds up at all. - 90.223.158.163 (talk) 19:39, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4157 civilwarsignals.org/pages/tele/tele.html democraticunderground.com/1163270 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Mix — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.156.66.249 (talk) 08:36, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

The Morse code " dah-di-di-dah-di,   di-dit " (shave and a haircut, "two dits") is fairly common in the radioamateur service, usually as a sign-off, but is only easily recognised because the "two bits" musical version pre-existed. Dunno if this had a counterpart in landline telegraphy. With all the digital tinkering in amateur radio, this risks going full-circle and becoming "two bits", driven largely by the introduction of microprocessors in the 1970s and 1980s. K7L (talk) 14:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be dah-dit instead of di-dit? 2A02:8071:BD5:5900:AC54:CB5C:A882:7F4F (talk) 10:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Struggling to see any mention of "dot code" before Morse appears at Electrical telegraph. Needs to be explained/ added there? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:13, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

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Origin

In the History section, the lyric is referred to in a quote from 1933 novel, and then it's stated that a 1939 song is thought to be the origin of the lyric. Can't both be right. Chriswaterguy talk 06:34, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

List of songs

I have removed several songs from the Popularity section when the only connection was that this phrase was used at the end as a comic windup. That is very, very common - far too common for us to list every example. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:04, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

ABC News source

ABC News has a short video about the sentence, on Facebook, here. Mateussf (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Door knock

Often used as a door knock, Shave and a Haircut is one of the most recognizable percussive riffs around. It is high time the article was graced with the sound. After all, nowadays, the door knock is far more popular than the ditty. An instance of the audio player was inserted into the article (section "Popularity") to showcase the door knock, which nowadays is far more popular than the ditty it was derived from.Apachegila (talk) 19:01, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Enough already

OK. We get it. Enough with all the musical info-boxes showing different "variations" of Shave and a Haircut. It is undue weight compared to the rest of the article. Most readers don't even read music, anyway. The first representation is enough. The latest "variation" inclusions were said to be added per "request". Who? Who made these requests? and why? The "Shave and a Haircut" in G major and then with chords" adds absolutely nothing to this article. Enough already. Maineartists (talk) 01:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)