Talk:Israel

Apartheid Israel

Israel articles do not reflect the plight of the Palestinians and does not highlight it's Apartheid regime. It's increasingly becoming difficult to change and add truth do these articles, which is dangerous for the Palestinians who need to be heard. Far right groups and constant riots are taking place in Israel as the coalition government is seeking to remove the courts and dictate, the page has no details of this. 2.27.113.28 (talk) 21:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no aparthied in Israel.It is the only non-apartheid country in the Middle east. It is a lie by the terrorists BDS movement.12.188.58.66 (talk) 22:21, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

This article is about the country of Israel. The issues with the Palestinians are discussed in other articles, as are the protests and Israeli government. 331dot (talk) 21:30, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

That comment is about Israel. The idea that the "issues" a country has should be segregated off to ancillary articles is one I have a hard time squaring with our NPOV policy. This is not a hagiography for the world's most perfect country and the shining beacon on the hill for all humanity to aspire to. nableezy - 17:02, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

You're speaking like it is a universal truth accepted by every individual, country and organization in the world, but it is actually very far from that. Israel in fact does not discriminate against people based on their race, and even while the situation for Palestinians living specifically in the West Bank is quite complicated, it is really not apartheid. Yet, it is true that Israel has been the target of several related accusations in recent years; there's a brief explanation of the claims in the section on "Apartheid concerns", below the "Israeli-occupied territories" part of the article. And like 331dot mentioned above, these claims are covered in depth in several other articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.Tombah (talk) 06:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Huh? You what? Israel absolutely does discriminate based on race. Even if all of the laws actualizing the second-class status of Arab citizens of Israel, as also examined exhaustively in the HRW and Amnesty reports and elsewhere, were not enough, the Basic law has enshrined racial discrimination into the very constitution of the country: institutional racism par excellence. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Firstly the article is written by a person of Palestinian origin, so it's already going to pretty biased, then it mentions to links to the basic law of Israel, and said it had Apartheid characteristics, it doesn't you can go read it here, the 2nd link is a group of communities in the northern region of Israel near the Golan heights, but still under UN recognized Israeli territory. It claimed that the communities were illegal, but it was confusing since it's in the UN recognized 1948 borders of Israel Crainsaw (talk) 18:59, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

The apartheid thing is disputed. In my opinion it has not reached that point (yet?).

However, the discrimination thing is obvious. In 2018, the Israeli government stopped giving a shit about what color it shows to the world: the white smoke was that law defining Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish people and removing Arabic's co-official status.

And it wasn't all jolly before that: one overlooked thing for instance is that Arab citizens lived under military rule from 1948-1966, needing permits even to just go from one town to another; Jews did not. Synotia (moan) 08:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Is this a joke? We just had a long RFC on that! This is why I never respond to anonymous IP comments who don't even bother to read the existing talk page. Dovidroth (talk) 09:08, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Israel absolutely does discriminate based on race. Palestinians have to go through checkpoints and gates and are denied basic human rights such as access to healthcare, and peaceful people praying in Al-Aqsa mosque are brutally attacked for just being Palestinian. And racism isn't only to Arabs, but also black Africans aren't considered "normal" to some. AhmedAkram903 (talk) 00:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Everybody, even Jews have to go to checkpoints when entering certain areas under dispute, so basically all of Jerusalem, to make sure they don't have bombs, or weapons. And they aren't denied basic human rights. The Al Aqsa mosque was raided because of reports that they had bombs, and panned to lock themselves inside the mosques, looking at the history of the city, that could well be the case. And the African racism thing is common all over the world among older generations. Crainsaw (talk) 19:03, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Israel absolutely does discriminate based on race. Palestinians have to go through checkpoints and gates and are denied basic human rights such as access to healthcare, and peaceful people praying in Al-Aqsa mosque are brutally attacked for just being Palestinian. And racism isn't only to Arabs, but also black Africans aren't considered "normal" to some. AhmedAkram903 (talk) 00:34, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

RFC on implementation of apartheid RFC

Previously, an RFC was held that established clear consensus to include broader wording about the human rights situation in the lead that was not focused on apartheid. Should that include the sentence Human rights organizations have accused Israel of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.? Nableezy 15:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

• Yes - Israel is unique in that the UN Security Council has repeatedly, and recently, determined it is guilty of ongoing war crimes (eg United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334 passed in 2016 said that the council "Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace") and it further has been accused of crimes against humanity by a number of human rights organizations (eg Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and B'Tselem have all accused Israel of committing the crime of apartheid.) These are notable controversies about Israel, and per WP:LEAD notable controversies belong in the lead. There are countless sources discussing the accusations that Israel is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, the weight given to these controversies in the sources is considerable. Not just news sources every time a new report is issued (eg here or here or here or here or here), or the scholarly sources focused on them (eg here). That Israel has been consistently accused by the international community and by the world's leading human rights organizations or war crimes and crimes against humanity is a notable controversy that has the weight in sources to be included in the lead. nableezy - 15:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
• Meh A while back I wrote the following to Nableezy (see archive): I think it's pushing it far. Russia for example does not have the term "crimes against humanity" in its lead, despite killing at least 5x more civilians in the city of Mariupol alone in under two months than Palestinian combatants+civilians combined have died since 2008. Neither do other fucked up places like Burma. This is disproportionate.

Later I've been told that it's not because other articles are poorly written, that this one should be too. Now, I understand that argument, but I still deep down stand by my idea that Israel would be uniquely demonized on Wikipedia; would that be really productive for its credibility on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, considering these topics are still covered on here at length in any case? --Synotia (moan) 16:15, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Comparisons of criminality based on numbers of dead are distasteful to say the least; levels of criminality tend to be determined as much by the degree of intent as anything else. To the point of proportionality, no other country in the world can boast a military occupation on the longevity and scale of Israel's nor match its drawing night to the same crisis of morality as reflected in South Africa's original sin. As noted here, no other country has 45 UNHCR resolutions to its name. However, these additions need not be unique: why not start some similar RFCs on the Russia and Burma pages? If they sink, you can cry foul. For now, the claim of singling out is speculative. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course there are other such countries - Turkey has been occupying a part of Cyprus for 50 years and the ethnic cleansing there was much more thorough. Alaexis_¿question? 21:37, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Synotia. 'Israel would be uniquely demonized on Wikipedia'. No. We have a middle ground between 'demonization' and 'euphemization' which consists in simply stating the fact that Israel has been accused of those crimes often by highly regarded investigative bodies. Alaexis. The analogy is patently skewed. Turkey does not hold under occupation the other, Greek side of Cyprus, has not regularly bombed civilian infrastructure and does not conduct nightly raids all over the Greek side, or shoot up Greek Cypriotes in their towns as terrorists.Nishidani (talk) 23:54, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, they don't do it because there are no Greeks left under their occupation. Alaexis_¿question? 06:50, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Tell that to the olderly inhabitants of Rizokarpaso. You'll probably need a good dictionary of Cypriotic dialect to understand the profanity of their replies. Please desist from replying if you can't understand what is being said, i.e. an analogy was drawn between Northern /Southern Cyprus and Israel/ the Palestine Territories, and it shows you point was meaningless. Jeezus, does one have to spell out the obvious?Nishidani (talk) 09:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

According to Greek Cypriots in Northern Cyprus there were 343 Greek Cypriots in Northern Cyrpus, which is about 0.2% of the pre-war Greek population of Northern Cyprus. On the other hand, 40% of Palestinians live between the sea and the river. This is precisely what I meant when I said that the ethnic cleansing was much more thorough - and recent - in Cyprus. Alaexis_¿question? 09:36, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

No. This was just asked and answered a couple months ago at another RFC, Talk:Israel/Archive 91#RFC re human rights violations in the lead. I don't see any new information since the last RfC, so same answer as before. Repeating this RfC is disruptive, as is trying to edit war the language in. Levivich (talk) 14:52, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

An RFC that had no consensus is not a reason to oppose a new one. Nor is a talk page a place for complaints about user conduct, if you feel it is disruptive go report it., I hope the closers give this comment the weight it deserves. And yes, there is new information, namely we now have an established consensus that the lead should include material on the wider human rights situation outside of apartheid. nableezy - 16:14, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

No. WP:NPOV. Many countries have been accused "of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity." Triggerhippie4 (talk) 16:48, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

How is this NPOV specifically? Where is the quote "of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity" in the WP:NPOV Chefs-kiss (talk) 12:52, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

No. We should wait considerable time before starting a new RFC per Levivich. This will be violation of WP:NPOV without mentioning the Palestinian terrorism also the lead is already too large and this matter is already discussed in WP:DUE manner anyhow the current wording is too much but I willing to accept it as matter of compromise --Shrike (talk) 18:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

No. The lede of this article already promotes a very specific, fairly biased point of view on the subject by framing the whole history of Israel as the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - and continues to overlook the profound effect that Palestinian terrorism has had on Israeli history and daily life to this very day. We don't need to make room for highly disputed claims. Following the previous RFC, this article already mentions that Israel has been charged with violating the human rights of the Palestinian people, and this is more than enough. Tombah (talk) 21:32, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

No per NPOV, Levivich, and Shrike. I would have expected someone proposing the text to include properly weighted sourcing, and absent such don’t see any reason to add. Mr Ernie (talk) 00:31, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

See the section Israel#International_opinion nableezy - 00:38, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• Yes per OP.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:06, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

No Per WP:NPOV @Nableezy: ffs keep the Israel-Palestine coverage on Wikipedia neutral. Sounding like agenda-based news agencies will only create mistrust in the user reading the articles for the first time on Wikipedia. Moreover, denouncing Israel on Wikipedia isn't going to make it any weaker. Best wishes!! Pg 6475 ^TM 05:15, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

ffs, please dont ping me again, especially if you are unable to articulate something approximating a reasoned argument. NPOV means including all significant views, and the view of the United Nations (General Assembly and Security Council), International Court of Justice, and the world's leading human rights organizations that Israel has committed and is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity is indeed significant. And "news agencies", regardless of the fake news-esque attempt at critique in calling them agenda-based, are what we on Wikipedia refer to as "reliable sources". But mostly dont ping me. Thanks. nableezy - 05:47, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I will, and I will keep keep pinging until I strive to make Wikipedia better. Wikipedia was created for knowledge. Not for politics. Pg 6475 ^TM 08:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

No, you should definitely not ping editors who are notably on a talk page and who have requested you to desist.Bad manners. The point you tried to made is void of useful argument, since you patently fail to understand NPOV and fail to grasp a very elementary distinction by mashing up POV pushing fake news tabloid sources with RS. We are dealing here with the question of whether or not consistent and repeated references to a feature of Israel's history in highly reliable sources merits inclusion or not. And wikipedia is programmatically opposed to censuring material on the grounds of editors' personal or political distaste.Nishidani (talk) 08:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Review WP:Harassment then. nableezy - 16:48, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

• No - No other country in Wikipedia has accusations of "crimes against humanity" in lead, which is hyperbolic and WP:UNDUE, specially in this case. Take for example the articles of North Korea, Syria, Russia (its President is looked by the ICC for God's sake!) and China (even accusations of genocide in Xinjiang are not in lead). Dovidroth (talk) 09:46, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
• Comment There is virtually no engagement by detractors with the proposition at all, despite having been invited to put forward alternative formulations on several occasions. There appears to be not just a refusal for the specific form of words but for any form of words at all, even though WP:LEAD says "The lead should....summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Are the detractors asserting that well sourced accusations of war crimes and crimes against humanity are not a prominent controversy? I also fail to see what the treatment given to other countries has to do with the Israeli case. Selfstudier (talk) 11:29, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
• SupportThe 'other countries are worse and Israel is being singled out' argument is an official meme circulating for decades. There are categories of nations. Israel is a democracy, not a totalitian or third world basket case. In Western terms it is anomalous: a democracy that has occupied another people for 56 years, sacks its resources, colonizes it best lands, closets the target population into bantustans, vaunts the ethnocratic nature of its state, demolished 56,000 houses beyond its borders, and shoots to kill people who exercise their legitimate right to protest at these violent practices by demonstrations on the grounds that throwing stones constitutes a lethal threat to occupying soldiers armed to the teeth.etc.etc- These anomalies that disconcert our expectations that Israel is 'normal' like us are endlessly noted by Israeli /diaspora scholarship, and authoritative NGOs. They are structural features of the state. Everyone editing here knows all this, it constitutes a section of the page and per WPMOS has to be summarized in the lead. As selfstudier says, y'all have to come up with an alternative to the phrasing objected to, which crisply captures the gist of these endemic accusation. And the euphemistic waffle about some generic phenomenon of 'allegations that Israel has abused human rights' is pointless. Please try to productively find a solution, rather than trust that numbers will paralyse any change.Nishidani (talk) 20:03, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the political essay. It was almost convincing. But keep in mind that this is Wikipedia, a site created to spread knowledge, not political agendas. No, we won't utilize the platform to evaluate a country using the standards an editor has just invented. Tombah (talk) 21:02, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

• Yes There are four types of crime prosecutable at the ICC, aggression, genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. The latter two are subject of RFC. War crimes refer to crimes committed in the conduct of an armed conflict and there are 10 mentioned subtypes of crimes against humanity, see Quigley .

Quigley discusses "persecution", one of the ten, as alleged by HRW and reported by the BBC, among others. Apartheid is another of the ten regardless of whether the word itself is used and accusations by major human rights groups have been reported on extensively,

The 2022 US State report on human rights for Israel states (this source is generally supportive of Israel):

"Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killings; arbitrary or unjust detention, including of Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories;restrictions on Palestinians residing in Jerusalem including arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy, family, and home;substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and association;arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; punishment of family members for alleged offenses by a relative;restrictions on freedom of expression and media including censorship;harassment of nongovernmental organizations;violence against asylum seekers and migrants;violence or threats of violence against Palestinians and members of national, racial, or ethnic minority groups;and labor rights abuses against foreign workers and Palestinian workers."

That covers several others of the ten cases which along with accusations of war crimes are simple to source. Israel received a letter from the ICC briefly laying out the three main areas the investigation will cover: the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli settlement policy and the 2018–2019 Gaza border protests.

The conclusion must be that accusations of crimes against humanity (without specifying them even though we perhaps should) against Israel are notable and a major topic of controversy in the case of Israel and therefore required for the lead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Selfstudier (talk • contribs) 21:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

• No it's absurd to be singling out Israel for accusations of human rights abuses, when numerous other countries have no such wording in their articles. You can reply to this with "other stuff exists isn't a valid argument" but it is obvious to any reader that the wording makes Israel seem worse than every other country in the world, which clearly is not a NPOV relative to any other country. Countries more than 10x to 100x the population of Israel that have oppressed millions more people and commit plenty of war crimes, accused by many of "crimes against humanity," have nothing about that in their lead, and it is misleading to readers to feature that here when it is featured no where else on the Wiki. Bill Williams 22:48, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

  We share the same thoughts Synotia (moan) 16:17, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• Yes: Not particularly extraordinary information - pretty much the bare bones in the context. I have waited for some cogent no votes to emerge, but none have. Opposers crying 'NPOV!' have no case. NPOV means NPOV with respect to reliable sources, and the proposed text is that Israel has been accused of a litany of sins, which it surely has; I don't see anyone providing sources that countermand the notion that it has been accused of these things. There is no NPOV case to be made. The whataboutist voters should go take their complaints to the other country pages. Accusations of war crimes in the Russia lead, genocide in Burma, ethnic cleansing in China, etc. are all perfectly valid. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:45, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
• No, clearly over the top and sensationally worded with crimes against humanity. It is also absurd to single out Israel for such a sentence when countries with far worse records, do not have this. This is lacking weight and neutrality. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 19:42, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
• No I prefer the current phrasing "Israel's practices in its occupation of the Palestinian territories have drawn international condemnation for violating the human rights of the Palestinians." While the proposed phrasing is less ideologically charged than apartheid, and I do not think the current phrasing is perfect either (much, though of course not all, "international condemnation of Israel" is simply due to applying a double standard), the proposed phrasing unduly emphasizes two specific controversial charges. To be clear, there is evidence that Israel commits war crimes, but so do many countries. The phrase "violating the human rights of the Palestinians" is more inclusive of the various human rights abuses committed by Israel, encompasses a wider range of commentary on Israeli practices, and less ideologically-charged. Thus, it is a much clearer case to make that there is DUE, NPOV criticism of Israel for "violating the human rights of the Palestinians," a phrasing I would support, than for those two specific changes. Zoozaz1 (talk) 22:37, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
• No (summoned by a bot) Mention of "accusations" of war crimes in the lede is simply UNDUE. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 11:48, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
• Yes per the OP's reasoning. Regarding WP: NPOV a lot of people saying it violates it but not explaining in what way. It would be nice for people to elaborate precisely what about NPOV they think is violated. It is simply giving more context. To quote 'Avoid stating opinions as facts' however the proposed text is 'Human rights organizations have accused Israel of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity'. It is not stating as fact. The proposer has also added tertiary sources to confirm their statement as well as academic sources. However I do agree that perhaps its better to wait for a while before another RfC is done. Chefs-kiss (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
• No. There is violence on both sides. This matter is too tangled to just sum it up in a lead sentence. ParadaJulio (talk) 09:15, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
• Yes - I was on the edge but after reflecting on it I believe it may be actually applicable to include that sentence as it reflects the allegations made by the respected human rights organizations. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:37, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
• No. The proposal is undue, pov, and ideologically charged. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 10:46, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

If you mean that quite popular ideology of enshrining and protecting human rights, then sure. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:52, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

In my humble opinion the proposal is reasonable, not undue and it's based on respected sources. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:29, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, urgently. Things like that can not simply be dismissed and excused with NPOV. AlexBachmann (talk) 14:53, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
• No, this is a double standard against Israel and is not neutral. The source is weak, mentioning "crimes against humanity" and Israel in a list and is a polemical essay. StellarNerd (talk) 20:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. This is a central issue in the public discourse on Israel - hence the excellent coverage by RSs - and relates to a situation that is in many respects exceptional. WP:WEIGHT implies that the concerns of human rights organisations should be included in the lead.

  Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Updated/Working source for the photo in section 'History' that a 1980 Law proclaimed "the complete and united Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel"

Direct Source for the law: https://main.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/documents/BasicLawsPDF/BasicLawJerusalem.pdf

This should be used to update source [229]

Accessed from: https://main.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/Pages/BasicLaws.aspx I am a Leaf (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Chronological Consistency and Continuity of References

Change "Palestine" to "Syria Palaestina" in "With the conversion of Constantine in the 4th century, the situation for the Jewish majority in Palestine "became more difficult".[94]" as that is how it is referenced to that point, i.e. "With the conversion of Constantine in the 4th century, the situation for the Jewish majority in Syria Palaestina "became more difficult".[94]" No reference for "Palestine" identification at this point. 2600:8802:E04:3900:9802:C09:41CA:9E68 (talk) 15:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Not done. The source uses "Palestine"; it cannot be assumed that "Syria Palaestina" is implied. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

The source mistakenly uses an anachronistic designation; it can only be assumed that "Syria Palaestina" is implied, as that is the official designation in the 4th century, and the designation previously introduced in the presented history, preceded only by "Judea". 2600:8802:E04:3900:9802:C09:41CA:9E68 (talk) 16:37, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Or they just mean Palestine (region) in the general sense, not the Roman Province per se. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:11, 9 June 2023 (UTC)