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m Reverted edits by 93.108.234.132 (talk) to last version by Taking Out The Trash.
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Stop editing nonsenses [[Special:Contributions/89.205.124.11|89.205.124.11]] ([[User talk:89.205.124.11|talk]]) 10:09, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Stop editing nonsenses [[Special:Contributions/89.205.124.11|89.205.124.11]] ([[User talk:89.205.124.11|talk]]) 10:09, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

== The Soviet Union wasn't an empire.... ==

Although it wasn't an empire, I would be fine with it having a place on the list as long there is a note informing the reader as such. [[Special:Contributions/172.116.113.102|172.116.113.102]] ([[User talk:172.116.113.102|talk]]) 05:18, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 05:18, 1 July 2023

Empires with sourced areas but without dates

I figured I'd make a section for empires where sources have been found for the maximum extent but with no year specified (meaning they can't be included in the list). My hope is that this will be helpful when people try to locate sources. Feel free to add entries of your own to the list below. TompaDompa (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Obeng, J. Pashington (1996). Asante Catholicism: Religious and Cultural Reproduction Among the Akan of Ghana. BRILL. p. 20. ISBN 978-90-04-10631-4. An empire of a hundred thousand square miles, occupied by about three million people from different ethnic groups, made it imperative for the Asante to evolve sophisticated statal and parastatal institutions [...]
  2. ^ Iliffe, John (1995-08-25). Africans: The History of a Continent. Cambridge University Press. p. 143. ISBN 978-0-521-48422-0. At its peak around 1820 the empire embraced over 250,000 square kilometres [...]
  3. ^ a b c d e Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio; Rogers, J. Daniel; Wilcox, Steven P.; Alterman, Jai (2008). "Computing the Steppes: Data Analysis for Agent-Based Modeling of Polities in Inner Asia" (PDF). Proceedings of the 104th Annual Meeting of the American Political Scientific Association. pp. 8–9. Retrieved 2020-07-13.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  4. ^ Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [T]he state of Đại Cồ Việt was established in the tenth century [...] The maximum extent of the territory at that time was around 110,000 square kilometres.
  5. ^ Bosin, Yury V. (2009), "Durrani Empire, Popular Protests, 1747–1823" (PDF), The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest, p. 1029, doi:10.1002/9781405198073.wbierp0481, ISBN 978-1-4051-9807-3, retrieved 2020-07-14
  6. ^ a b Bang, Peter Fibiger; Bayly, C. A.; Scheidel, Walter (2020-12-02). The Oxford World History of Empire: Volume One: The Imperial Experience. Oxford University Press. pp. 92–94. ISBN 978-0-19-977311-4.
  7. ^ Shillington, Kevin (2013-07-04). Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set. Routledge. p. 733. ISBN 978-1-135-45670-2. The limits of the empire correspond approximately with the boundaries of the Chad Basin, an area of more than 300,000 square miles.
  8. ^ Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [W]hen Nguyễn Vietnam surrendered to France in the late nineteenth century the territory it claimed to control had more than tripled to over 370,000 square kilometres
  9. ^ Hart, Hornell (1948). "The Logistic Growth of Political Areas". Social Forces. 26 (4): 402. doi:10.2307/2571873. ISSN 0037-7732. In the Mediterranean area the earliest historic governments which extended their territory by major use of fleets were the Greek and the Phoenecian, reaching areas of approximately 250,000 square miles each
  10. ^ Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (1992). "Economic Diversity and Integration in a Pre-Colonial Indian Empire". World Archaeology. 23 (3): 336. ISSN 0043-8243. At its maximal extent the Vijayanagara empire encompassed some 360,000 square kilometers
  11. ^ Alcock, Susan E.; D'Altroy, Terence N.; Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (2001-08-09). Empires: Perspectives from Archaeology and History. Cambridge University Press. p. 85. ISBN 978-0-521-77020-0. The total spatial extent of the empire, not including the north coast, I estimate to have been some 320,000 square kilometers.

Recent edits by User:JoaquindeMosquerayFigueroa

This source is from ABC (newspaper), which is not a reliable source for this material. This source is likewise hardly the most reliable source for this material and does not even provide the year, making it unusable for reasons of WP:SYNTH. The source they replaced is a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities—just about the highest-quality, most WP:RELIABLE source we can get for this. TompaDompa (talk) 16:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I gave you an extra citation. South America already makes 18M km2 you add Mexico, half the US, central america, Philippines, all the Portuguese African territories+ half Italy , half Germany, Netherlands and you have more than 20M km2 under effective control. Philippe the 2nd. Do I have to make a paper for you to add it when I already gave you a book? Comn man this is unrealistic nd you know it. JoaquindeMosquerayFigueroa (talk) 18:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia doesn't do WP:Original research. If you want to replace a source that gives one figure with a different source that gives another figure, the new source has to be a higher-quality one. In that case that's going to be rather difficult since the source you want to replace is a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities. The sources you did try to add were way inferior. Both the area and year also need to come from the same source, or else you're engaging in WP:Improper editorial synthesis. The territories you mention weren't even all controlled by Spain at the same time. TompaDompa (talk) 23:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok here you have another source: [1]http://academiadeladiplomacia.es/pdf/Iberofonia-y-Paniberismo-Durantez-2018-libro-en-pdf.pdf
Page 109
ISBN: 978-84-16159-29-1 JoaquindeMosquerayFigueroa (talk) 09:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
24M km2 JoaquindeMosquerayFigueroa (talk) 09:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:RSCONTEXT: Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. This is a textbook example of just that. Furthermore, that source does not actually say on page 109 that the Spanish Empire reached its maximum extent in the year 1638, as you falsely claim. That is a completely unacceptable misrepresentation of a cited source. TompaDompa (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
JoaquindeMosquerayFigueroa, repeatedly removing maintenance tags to this effect without addressing them is rather disruptive. Surely you understand that we can't just cherry-pick the source with the highest estimate without taking source quality into consideration? TompaDompa (talk) 01:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My citation, the research on page 109 and on page 138 indicates on the one hand the extension of 24 million km2 for the Spanish empire and on page 138 there is a map that shows it. This research is specialised in the territorial extension of the Spanish Empire and is more specialised and descriptive than the one you provide. Please accept it as I will not stop changing this over and over until the truth is shown. Please accept the change as I will not stop until the truth is exposed for what it is. JoaquindeMosquerayFigueroa (talk) 11:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, no. As Cinderella157 pointed out at Talk:Spanish Empire#Area, WP:THESES are not ideal sources. Contrary to your assertion that This research is specialised in the territorial extension of the Spanish Empire and is more specialised and descriptive than the one you provide, it's a brief mention without any signs of scholarly rigour on the topic of the territorial extents of historical polities in Iberofonía y Paniberismo, a source on a completely different topic. No serious scholar on the topic of the territorial extents of historical polities attributes effective control of 24 million km2 to the Spanish Empire during the time of the Iberian Union, and no serious scholar on the topic of the territorial extents of historical polities uses any other measure than land area under effective control. To put it simply, the figure you put forth represents a WP:FRINGE view. The source you replaced, on the other hand, is a highly-regarded and widely-cited piece of scholarly work. It is a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities which outlines its sources and methodology. When it comes to source quality and reliability in this context, there is simply no comparison. Your closing words sound like a declaration of intent to WP:Edit war in order to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. TompaDompa (talk) 13:11, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is another discussion at Talk:Spanish Empire#Area discussing this very issue - the peak area of the Spanish Empire. As Spanish Empire is the primary article for this, how about we centralise the discussion there? Cinderella157 (talk) 02:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In light of the discussion at Talk:Spanish Empire#Area and WP:FRINGEN, I'm going to restore the long-standing stable version. TompaDompa (talk) 19:29, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Using the best source

SpaceEconomist192, this is rather disruptive. You're not disputing the difference in reliability between the sources, so why present an estimate from a lower-quality source alongside one from a higher-quality one? We're supposed to use the WP:BESTSOURCE. TompaDompa (talk) 01:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as no reply has been forthcoming in over a week, I'm going to restore the long-standing stable version. TompaDompa (talk) 19:29, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even Chatgpt knows Portuguese empire was around 10.4 million km2

"The total land area of the Portuguese Empire throughout its history is difficult to precisely quantify due to the changing nature of colonial boundaries, territorial disputes, and the expansion and contraction of territories over time. However, estimates suggest that at its height during the 16th century, the Portuguese Empire may have covered around 10.4 million square kilometers. This figure includes the territories and colonies in Africa, Asia, and the Americas under Portuguese control. It's important to note that this estimate is approximate and can vary depending on the specific definitions and boundaries used to define the Portuguese Empire. The empire went through periods of expansion and contraction, and the exact extent of its territories changed over time" 109.48.241.191 (talk) 18:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ChatGPT doesn't "know" anything, and an estimate of 10.4 million km2 at its height during the 16th century is so far outside the academic mainstream as to be risible. No serious scholars consider Portuguese territorial expansion to have been at its height in the 1500s. That alone is such an obvious red flag that you really should have been able to dismiss that entire statement as nonsense out of hand. TompaDompa (talk) 19:38, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What multiverse is this? Since when is the Spanish empire bigger than the Russian one?

Stop editing nonsenses 89.205.124.11 (talk) 10:09, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Soviet Union wasn't an empire....

Although it wasn't an empire, I would be fine with it having a place on the list as long there is a note informing the reader as such. 172.116.113.102 (talk) 05:18, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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