Talk:Marie Antoinette

Infobox photo issue

Hi! Dialuanny0 here! Back in January/February 2022, I saw a Wikipedia user make a topic on this article’s talk page about the infobox photo. They were talking about reverting it the original one/changing it to something else, which I can agree with. They made a good argument about it. It has been awhile since then, and I’m ready to talk about changes with the infobox photo! Here are some photos that I think we could possibly change the infobox image to:

File:MarieAntoinette1788.jpg

File:Marie-Antoinette_par_Elisabeth_Vig%C3%A9e-Lebrun_-_1783.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

File:Marie_Antoinette_Adult.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

File:Gautier-Dagoty_-_Marie-Antoinette,_1775.jpg#mw-jump-to-license Dialuanny0 (talk) 03:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2023

"As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court; as for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic in spite of the fact that she gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. In spite of her very ample proportions, Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor."

Change to: As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court. As for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic. She gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor. 89.19.79.27 (talk) 10:41, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

So you basically propose to delete "In spite of her very ample proportions ...". I agree, this is insensitive and fat-shaming. PatGallacher (talk) 14:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I feel like that whole section above could be deleted. While I'm certainly not an expert on Marie Antoinette, I can't see how talking about her 'bearing' is relevant in the slightest - if this is somehow relevant and I'm simply missing context please do correct me though. This section was added all at once with no other content, and the editor who inserted it also made this edit - SeriousHist, would you mind explaining why this content is important? Tollens (talk) 04:14, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I have decided to be bold and delete the offending phrase. More serious changes may merit discussion. PatGallacher (talk) 06:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello I simply added the impact of Marie Antoinette on her court and the fashion of her days ; Marie Antoinette life was affected deeply first by her fashion impact ; she was a model in fashion who was followed in all Europe . In addition this was a very important political issue with time , the people of France began to turn on their queen because of her lifestyle and this affected her popularity leading to the French Revolution. If you read any book on Marie Antoinette this was a very important issue for her before the birth of her children. Frankly a controversy over an issue who defined 20 years of the queen life : she was called the queen of fashion in spite that she gained a lot of ample proportions ; I’am simply describing the historical fact and not fat-shaming her but glorifying her as the queen of fashion in history despite her fat (fat is beautiful if you want ) ; but that is not the crux of the matter, it is one line in a whole paragraph. We can’t judge people who live 200 years ago according to our modern standards; their ideas were different than us . This is not an ideological article but an historical one SeriousHist (talk) 16:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC) To have consensus I agree to the change already made and I hope we can all work together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist (talk • contribs) 16:13, 20 June 2023 (UTC) European History is my speciality ; this article is good but It need some sources who are missing. To see how I work I saw in the article of another important queen Elizabeth Tudor that the establishment of the first colony in North America is not mentioned and the fondation of the Eastern Company for India ; I added both ; here I saw the same problem; a major fact of Marie Antoinette life and impact was missing. Thank you all. SeriousHist (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.thecollector.com/marie-antoinette-controversial-fashion-queen/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist (talk • contribs) 17:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.itsbeyondmycontrol.com/18th-century-fashion-marie-antoinette-the-queen-of-haute-couture/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist (talk • contribs) 17:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/history-magazine/article/daily-life-france-fashion-marie-antoinette — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist (talk • contribs) 17:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC) SeriousHist (talk) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.savoirflair.com/fashion/100411/marie-antoinette-inspired-runway-collections SeriousHist (talk) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC) In conclusion I added important new sources here to show the impact of that subject in Marie Antoinette life . This was a very important feature who defined her life for more than a decade with a massive social , political and cultural impact felt all over the world for a long period of time. I think it is worth a new paragraph who should be added to the article. Also it is very important to diversify the sources in that article who depend heavily on Fraser ( A great historian but who should not be the only or even major source of her life ). Thank you all. SeriousHist (talk) 17:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: removing from edit request backlog until there's a clearer consensus about what changes to make. (My unsolicited opinion is that if any of the material is to remain, it be rewritten to be more encyclopedic and with inline attribution to Fraser as he is apparently the sole source of it.) Xan747 (talk) 19:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

RFC: Ancestry

I proposed the inclusion of {{ahnentafel}} in "ancestry" section (with reliable source and non-trivial, but only can extend to great-grandparents) for this article, which had been removed last 25 October 2019, and another one in 22 May 2020, for these names of the subject's great-great-grandparents are trivial, but Wikipedia is not a genealogy database.

Ancestors of Marie Antoinette

8. Charles V, Duke of Lorraine 4. Leopold, Duke of Lorraine 9. Eleonore of Austria 2. Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor 10. Philippe I, Duke of Orléans 5. Élisabeth Charlotte of Orléans 11. Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate 1. Marie Antoinette 12. Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor 6. Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor 13. Eleonore Magdalene of Neuburg 3. Maria Theresa of Austria 14. Louis Rudolph, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel 7. Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick 15. Christine Louise of Oettingen-Oettingen

2001:4451:824F:B700:10CD:87C9:EEE7:A19C (talk) 07:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

References

• Support inclusion I don't see how this is trivia. Genealogy is important for the understanding of the interconnectedness of European states at the time. And given how Marie Antoinette ended it is also relevant to reactions of other states to the French revolution. Also a lot of articles have these and I believe that a lot of people expect this information to be available in the article. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 14:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support For reasons above. I dont think the information is trivial, especially for someone of Marie Antionettes status. EmilySarah99 (talk) 00:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support inclusion Genealogy is not trivia, it is a core element of history. Dimadick (talk) 02:55, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support inclusion, genealogy of members of ruling houses isn't trivia, but an important piece of information.Marcelus (talk) 07:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support inclusion. Genealogy is central to understanding historic European royals and their interests. If this was an article about some scientist or popstar then we might dismiss their hitherto-unknown grandparents as trivia, but when they're Holy Roman Emperors, and when that ancestry led directly to Marie Antoinette's role in life (and her notability), that would be foolish. bobrayner (talk) 20:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)