Talk:Odesa

This article should probably be renamed to 'Odessa'

Over the past year, a select few editors have been imposing their own personal, biased moral beliefs on all readers of this article (WP:TE). When confronted with rational counterarguments, they ignored them and instead cited a moral responsibility to change the name of the article from the original 'Odessa' to 'Odesa', directly violating Wikipedia guidelines and undermining the very core that this encyclopedia is built upon. Wikipedia should not become a pawn of political trends, but rather reflect a neutral and rational approach to all matters. Furthermore, editors should not act on impulses or enforce their own views of right and wrong, because this invariably leads to conflict, as people will always differ in what they consider morally wrong and morally right, making it impossible to reach the vital consensus that an encyclopedia requires.

Please only argue based on Wikipedia guidelines, not your interpretations of morality. 212.86.40.193 (talk) 20:56, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

If you wish to change the name of the article, you will need to persuade a consensus of editors that Odessa is the common name for the city in English, or that it otherwise is the name that best meets our naming criteria. You have not attempted to do this above.

For all that you say that people should "only argue based on Wikipedia guidelines, not your interpretations of morality", I note that you argue primarily based on your interpretations of morality and not based on Wikipedia guidelines. Kahastok talk 21:04, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Common name in English is still Odessa

Arcanum, European Space Agency , Council of Europe, Holocaust Encyclopedia, Odessa Journal - an English language online magazine from Odessa, Japanese Trade Association, TripAdvisor, Euronews, Impakter.com - online magazine from UK, LOL - Wiktionary (Odessa - A locale in Ukraine. The city of Odessa; A port city, the administrative center of Odessa Raion, Odessa Oblast, Ukraine, on the Black Sea - The Odessa Raion; A raion of Odessa Oblast, Ukraine. Seat: Odessa - The Odessa Oblast; An oblast of Ukraine. Seat: Odessa)

Every place in Canada, US named Odessa by immigrants from there is spelled Odessa for a reason. It was never Odesa. It is only Odesa coz a bunch of people in the Ukraine cant speak proper Russian and/or can't spell words in their own language. 94.21.109.203 (talk) 20:18, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

There are just as many and probably more sources that now use Odesa. And how other towns spell the name has no bearing at all. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

OdeSa or OdeSSa?

The name of the Ukrainian city in question - according to Wikipedia - in English is Odessa or Odesa, in Russian Одесса (Odessa), but in Bulgarian, Macedonian, Ruthenian, Serbian, Tuvan and Ukrainian - Одеса (Odesa), in Belarusian Адэса, Czech Oděsa, Silesian Uodesa, in Esperanto Odeso. Odesa is in Asturian, Basque, Bosnian, Breton, Croatian, Gagauz, Romanian, Slovak, Slovenian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Serbo-Croatian, Turkmen and Wolapik. Thus, in several languages, the name of the city has only one S.

The proposed change will therefore not be revolutionary on a world scale, while the change of the Russian name to Ukrainian will be another gesture of solidarity with the Ukrainian nation after February 24, 2022 and it will be a departure from yet another Russian geographical name.

This name should be changed in atlases and textbooks. Mir.Nalezinski (talk) 19:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

What proposed change?  —Michael Z. 20:40, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

When was the text changed? Previously it was Odessa (also Odesa) at the beginning, now it is Odesa (also Odessa). Over 300 names of Odessa have been changed to Odesa in this version. The name on the map and the noun and adjective Odessan were also changed to Odesan. This change should also be suggested to Wikipedia in other languages. Unfortunately, in the Polish Wikipedia it is still... Odessa. Mir.Nalezinski (talk) 08:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

This article was renamed Odessa → Odesa and the spelling used in it was updated in July 2022.  —Michael Z. 14:00, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Plus the opening sentence does not say what is claimed. It says "Odesa (also spelled Odessa)". In the naming section is says "English: Odesa or Odessa." This is pretty much per sourcing so i see no issue here. What does this user want that has not already been said? English has two spellings with "Odesa" now being prevalent. That's what's in the article. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:44, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

"English has two spellings, of which 'Odesa' is currently dominant. That's what the article says." Yes, but just a few months ago it was exactly the opposite - English had two spellings, of which "Odessa" used to be dominant. When I wrote to the Polish Language Council* a proposal to change the name Odessa to Odesa, the English Wikipedia was still dominated by the form Odessa

• -https://www.salon24.pl/u/mirnalia/1214493,mn-84-odesa

Mir.Nalezinski (talk) 10:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Quote "This name should be changed in atlases and textbooks." Wikpedia doesn't issue atlases and textbooks. Wikpedia doesn't take a stand in political issues. You can promote your opinions outside Wikipedia. --21:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Madglad (talk • contribs)

The city was founded by Russians, with a large contribution of Serbian, Greek, Moldovan, French and German immigrants. This city was founded as part of the Russian Empire under the name Odessa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 11:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

So? New York was founded by the Dutch as New Amsterdam. Kaliningrad was founded by Germans as Königsberg. Shall I continue? --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 13:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Russians ethnically cleansed Crimean Tatars from the region and expunged the evidence of their presence, including by renaming their settlements with “European” names evoking “civilized” Classical antiquity. Including Hacıbey, which was replaced by “Odessa”/Odesa.  —Michael Z. 13:37, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 26 July 2023

Odesa → Odessa – The name "Odessa" should be reinstated due to its historical significance, cultural heritage, and identity. With a history dating back to the late 18th century, "Odessa" has been widely used in English texts and historical records, and changing it to "Odesa" could cause confusion and diminish its historical context. The traditional name holds cultural significance to the people of Ukraine and the city's inhabitants, and renaming it might be perceived as an attempt to downplay its Ukrainian heritage. Additionally, "Odessa" has become the standard English name for the city, ensuring linguistic consistency and facilitating communication for researchers, historians, and tourists worldwide. The international recognition of "Odessa" further supports its preservation, preventing confusion among global citizens, businesses, and organizations. Moreover, considering the city's popularity as a tourist destination, maintaining the name "Odessa" is crucial for travel arrangements and tourism promotion. Anglicization of names is common in English to ease communication and understanding, making "Odessa" a practical choice while preserving its unique identity in the global context. The renaming of "Odessa" to "Odesa" was done supposedly to stand with Ukraine in Ukrainian solidarity, however it is a bastardization of the term as English is ENGLISH, not ukrainian. As Germany is Germany and not Deutschland, I don't know how the rename went forward in the first place as it seems to be more emotionally driven rather then practically. EVaDiSh (talk) 01:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC) EVaDiSh (talk) 01:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - per arguments in the last RM. Reliable sources appear to use "Odesa", not "Odessa". Here's a few: BBC[1] NYT[2] CNN[3] AP News[4] estar8806 (talk) ★ 12:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Looking at historical changes of the names use, we can see that the widespread use of "Odesa" only truly became widespread after March of last year, and Odessa is actually still used on a GOVERNMENT level by many major world governments. Official transliterations are not always the most accurate depiction of the name of a given city, ie Turkey demanded that people refer to them as Türkiye however this move was not really considered and the majority of the world still uses Turkey. English is its own unique language with many latin roots (as opposed to Ukrainian which has slavic roots), and the change to "Odesa" is VERY recent and highlights an issue to create "PR Solidarity" whilst nullifying historical context and predetermined existing heritage. For instance I personally know many people from the region, and they all refer to it as "Odessa" in English. Hell, while typing this out, "Odesa" was marked as an incorrect spelling to be corrected to "Odessa" by BUILT IN AUTOCORRECT.

Transliteration of Russian/Soviet cities was always done by conventions of the time using the reserve language, which at the time was Russian. This is why Энергодар became Energodar, Киев became Kiev, and in this given context Одесса became Odessa. This is not a show of support for Russia by any means, but aligns with historical cultural norms present over the last 300 years. Ukrainian is still a very young language, and is not a majority nor a reserve language in any part of the world other then SOME PARTS of Ukraine (Eastern Ukraine, Crimea and Kiev still actually primarily use Russian, although given the Spec. Mil. Op. their use is starting to diminish. I do not contest the growing popularity of these names, and would support using them in the future, however attempting to forcefully retranslate and transliterate a name into English from an otherwise obscure language only seeds further confusion amongst Global citizens and ESPECIALLY citizens of post-soviet states (including Ukraine). EVaDiSh (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, all of these arguments have already been put forth in previous discussions, but as noted by estar8806, reliable sources now generally use Odesa, which should then be the article name per Wikipedia policy. Uness232 (talk) 12:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Odessa is the established English common name, seeing trends from Google Analytics suggest ordinary citizens OTHER THEN MAJOR POTENTIALLY BIASED NEWS SOURCES still use "Odessa" and are herein redirected to "Odesa". I myself and many others were confused finding this article for instance, thinking that it referred to an entirely different city. It is still the predominant local international spelling of the city, (as seen by the fact that there are many cities named AFTER odessa which use the two s variation).

Personally I believe the changes of names to Ukrainian transliterations (Kiev-Kyiv, Energodar-Enerhodar, Odessa-Odesa) is almost offensive in a historical context and seeks to nullify city heritage and even suppress the use of the traditional names in faux support for Ukraine, which while great as a PR move doesn't seem noteworthy in a global context. EVaDiSh (talk) 22:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

This line of argument has little relation to the guidelines, but please read WP:BIAS. The denigration of using Ukrainian names for Ukrainian places following the precedent set by a majority of WP:RS, while insisting on reviving colonial Russian names, is actually an offensive example of WP:RWG.  —Michael Z. 23:57, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:BIAS is actually an example of why the name should be reverted at least temporarily, I'm all for language evolution over time but this is simply too fast of a change that people simply aren't accustomed to. The change to "Odesa" has only been pushed by large western news outlets, however it is noted that even UKRAINIAN outlets and public sources still use "Odessa" in English publications. If Odesa truly overtakes Odessa in the near future then the switch to Odesa would even make sense, however at present time it is still the Common name as it has been for over 80 years.

Note the following usage as outlined in Google Trends in Ukraine [5] and Worldwide [6]. Odessa is clearly prevalent not only in Ukraine but worldwide.

Note the following Ukrainian news outlet headquarted in Odessa Oblast, named "The Odessa Journal" [7]

Note the following American/Western sources retaining use of "Odessa" despite "Odesa"'s supposed new "common name" status. [8]Newser, [9]UPI, [10]Washington Post

I don't deny the growing prevalence of Odessa, but the change is seemingly only pushed by Pro-Western news outlets, news sources from pretty much all other parts of the world (INCLUDING UKRAINE) retain the prior spelling of "Odessa", AND judging from personal experience and Google Trends, "Odessa" is also how the city is known by the general public. EVaDiSh (talk) 01:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Also please note that Odessa Oblast and the City of Odessa are still PREDOMINANTLY Russian speaking despite efforts to remove it.

Official site of City of Odessa (Loads in Russian, must be switched to Ukrainian if necessary). [11]

Language Statistics of Ukraine (2018) [12]

Language Statistics of Ukraine (March 2022) [13]

Note that Odessa Oblast, Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk are all primarily Russian by a SIGNIFICANT Margin, as opposed to the rest of Ukraine. (55/45) EVaDiSh (talk) 01:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. The argument above is not really addressing the criteria that were considered when we were renaming this article, but it is also factually incorrect and self-contradictory. Odesa is the official and internationally recognized spelling, according to Ukrainian toponymy regulations and thereby adopted into international databases and mapping, including at the United Nations,[14] and in the IATA[15] and ICAO[16] databases used for travel arrangements. Odesa is also the English spelling used by anyone who considers what holds cultural significance to Ukrainians, and to call it a “bastardization” is some POV diametrically opposed to reality and good judgment.  —Michael Z. 14:40, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

“It seems to be more emotionally driven rather then practically” is disrespectful of the discussion and well-reasoned decision that referred to our guidelines in the preceding successful RM. Any attempt to overturn it should at least consider reading it and addressing its points.  —Michael Z. 14:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Also noteworthy is that the first major move to "Odesa" took place on FEBRUARY 24th 2022 at Talk:Odesa/Archive 2, which occurred when emotions were running high and mass derussification was present. This suggests not a logical/practical move but rather a move intended primarily to appease Ukraine and show solidarity at the expense of english conventions. Ukraine's history should not be wiped off from existence simply because of this less then ideal period, and the fact that the city was FIRST NAMED IN RUSSIAN by Empress Catherine the Great and later TRANSLATED into Ukrainian after its use stopped being suppressed also provides further historical context for its use. [17]USC.EDU EVaDiSh (talk) 22:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Please name names and go to the appropriate forum when you accuse editors of bad-faith editing. If you’re just going to broadly cite a mysterious conspiracy guilty of “mass Russification” then no one will be fooled. Please stop spinning yarns and refer to the guidelines.  —Michael Z. 23:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose nomination based on personal feelings and subjectivity (e.g. "changing it to "Odesa" could cause confusion and diminish its historical context"). Languages are not static, they change. Odesa is increasingly becoming, if it isn't already, the most common name for the city in English. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:40, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  Much of this change happened very rapidly in Mid 2022 as major western outlets started using the new variation to stand with Ukraine. Odessa remains the common and CORRECT name historically and in the present, and this current temporary use of "Odesa" is nothing more but a direct transliterated forced name made to show faux support for Ukraine whilst nullifying clear historical context. EVaDiSh (talk) 22:25, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  Odesa is not that new.[18] It is not used “to stand with Ukraine” nor “forced” to show “faux support” (which is it?), but as normal respect for national conventions.  —Michael Z. 23:24, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose This issue was thoroughly discussed during the Move discussion (last year?). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  Meh, true but I contest that move on grounds that it was done during heightened tensions and a burst of support for Ukraine by more western audiences, as opposed to taking historical, cultural and academic contexts into account. EVaDiSh (talk) 22:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  So when did the "heightened tensions" cease? You must be watching a different news than the rest of us. But the decision was not made because of the russian invasion, it was made after much discussion based on the facts of English usage. Clearly there is no support here for your recidivism. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 04:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  I have to agree... when did tensions stop? When did Russian attacks stop? Russia is still butchering people. Last years case may have been brought to bare because of tensions and Ukrainian support, but English sourcing also decided what the name would be. I was against the original move because I felt the sourcing was pretty close but still in favor of Odessa. That close and I voted to keep rather than change yet. Today I would bet it's still fairly close but in favor of Odesa. I don't see a reason to change now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  Russian action is not in question here, and Ukraine is equally and undeniably guilty of its own war crimes. The changes to the new names are clear indicators of WP:BIAS which i am trying to prevent. Also note my above arguments about Russian prevalence and historical significance.

  Thanks! 47.152.244.76 (talk) 07:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  When someone insinuates that the name changed because of "heightened tensions" that happened in the past, it does matter. Tensions have never stopped. It is the reason the name changed in reliable sources. We can't help that sources changed the spelling. Perhaps the spelling in sources would never have changed had the Russian invasion never happened. But it did and it continues. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:43, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

What as changed in the last year?—blindlynx 13:49, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Reluctant Oppose. I sympathize with the nominator, as I am not a fan of the very unnatural way that this English spelling change has been forced by "reliable sources". Nevertheless, where the sources lead we must follow. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I dismiss the evidence from the Google trends because once you get to the point where there's a meaningful difference you're dealing with non-English speakers or things that aren't the city (there are a lot of searches for Odessa A'zion, for example). I dismiss the argument about the motivation for the change in usage by reliable sources because it's irrelevant. Even if reliable sources switched in 2022 explicitly out of support for the Ukrainian side in the war - and many switched without making that connection - what we care about is what reliable sources do, not why they do it. I dismiss the argument about historical usage. We care about usage now, not usage in 1950 or even in 2021. I dismiss the argument about local usage, because we care what the city is called in English, not Ukrainian or Russian. Ultimately, the OP's proposal appears to be aimed at righting what they consider to be a great wrong. But Wikipedia doesn't do that. No valid reason has been given to move the article. Kahastok talk 21:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  I believe the following link should clear it up. Official site of city of Odessa, note URL String with "Odessa" regardless of language selected.

  [19]https://omr.gov.ua/ru/odessa/about/

  [20]https://omr.gov.ua/ua/odessa/about/

  [21]https://omr.gov.ua/en/odessa/about/ (English version is seemingly down at this time).

  This is the official spelling of the city as perpetrated by the Oblast and Ukraine Govt.

  Naming it anything else is an insult and is in direct violation of the clear norms set forth by Ukraine's.

  Note that the city of Dnipropetrovsk was renamed to Dnipro after vote from the Verkhovnaya Rada (UA Parliament).

  No such vote took place for Odessa or Odessa Oblast.

  I believe this clears it up, feel free to correct me!

  Thanks EVaDiSh (talk) 01:15, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  This nullifies other sources, while yes "Odesa" as a spelling may be a new up and coming common name, Odessa is just as well an even more frequently used common name by non-western sources; as well as being the most recognized variation of the city.

  Wikipedia:Article titles states that the Official name is not necessarily the common name, however in this case there are two common names with one clearly taking precedence.

  On top of this, same said common name happens to be Official name. EVaDiSh (talk) 01:19, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  in this case there are two common names with one clearly taking precedence - how so? How does one decide which of two common names takes precedence. The sources you've cited are (almost) completely WP:PRIMARY, while Wikipedia uses Reliable secondary sources.

  I would also caution you to stop WP:BLUDGEONING this discussion. You've replied to nearly every "oppose" !vote, often in great length. It's time to let others contribute. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:30, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  No. Unlike Dnipro, Odesa has not been renamed. You are arguing about two different English spellings of the same name.

  And no. In Ukraine, the only official name of the city has been Ukrainian Одеса, with one s, since independence in 1991. This is clearly written at the top of the website you’ve linked. To ignore that and cite the legacy URL string as the “official spelling” is, um, having imperfect integrity.

  The only official Latin-alphabet name has been Odesa, since the adoption of the national romanization system in 1996. As to its applicability to this RM, see WP:OFFICIALNAMES. To call respect for it an “insult” is an insult to Odesites, to Ukrainians, and to your fellow editors. Shame on you.  —Michael Z. 05:12, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  I do agree that in this case the official name is the same as the common name. But since the official name is Odesa - endorsed in the English text of the very webpage you linked (in both Ukrainian and Russian versions) - that suggests the article should not be moved. Frankly, if there's an insult here, it's the insult to our intelligence when you seriously tried to argue that the spelling used in the URL of a particular web page should override the preponderance of reliable sources in this area. Kahastok talk 07:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

While it is often the case that the official name of a place in its native language coincides with the name in common English usage, that is certainly not a requirement of Wikipedia naming. Take the classic Ukrainian soup "borscht", for example. Notice that "t" on the end. The "t" is definitely not in Ukrainian, but the English name invariably ends with a "t" and has for at least a century. And the moves of Ukrainian placenames from their Russian-based versions to their Ukrainian-based versions is a process that did not begin in the spring of 2022 when the russians illegally stormed over the border at the orders of the russian dicatator. It has been going on since the renaming laws began back after the first illegal russian invasion in 2014. Since the English-speaking countries have invariably supported the innocent people of Ukraine in their struggle to remain independent of russian rule, English language media have, by and large, adapted to the Ukrainian spellings, beginning with the change Kiev > Kyiv. Losing one "s" from "Odesa" in English language media is simply the latest in a decade-long process in English language sources. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:46, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Kyiv would have changed in English in a decade or forever without the 2022 invasion. It was not in the English news very often. All it took was sympathy towards a smaller country being attacked by a bully and voila... all the sources started changing quickly. The pronunciation in English really hasn't changed though. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:39, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

“Sympathy” is your personal interpretation. (Compare the New York Times updating its style manual to stop using “the Ukraine” on December 3, 1991, and practically all publications quickly following suit.) New official spellings for Ukrainian place names have been in use internationally since the early 1990s, and much publication has respected them, some has made exceptions only for very well-known examples like Kyiv, Odesa, and the river Dnipro (I can cite many explicit statements in forewards of history books, for example), while some ignored them altogether.

What has happened recently is the example of Russia’s imperial aggression has merely reminded writers and editors that they have been actively using colonial language on Ukraine, and now realize they ought to have stopped a long time ago. It is not sympathy, it is newfound self-awareness.  —Michael Z. 15:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

i smell anti-russian sentiment EVaDiSh (talk) 05:40, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose There was already a recent RM in which this was discussed in depth. The current nomination does not introduce any new information that might cause that to be doubted and appears mostly appealing to things that aren't Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia isn't a promotional venue so whether it affects the tourism of the area ultimately does not affect the naming. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:15, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 27 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close. RM already open above. Kahastok talk 21:05, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

---

Odesa → odessa – odessa is more used by people https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Odesa%2COdessa&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 and reliable sources such as https://www.euronews.com/video/2023/07/24/watch-some-50-people-join-service-at-odessa-cathedral-damaged-in-russian-strike Gerçois (talk) 19:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It's not Odesa.

In English the name is Odessa. 216.209.40.180 (talk) 16:09, 29 July 2023 (UTC)