Talk:Kmart

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2023

It appears that information concerning Kmart locations outside of the continental United States is woefully outdated.

• Puerto Rico – Although the Kmart website still list 3 Puerto Rican locations, the last Kmart store in Puerto Rico closed in October 2022. The other stores on the island have been closed since 2021.

• Virgin Islands – Their 2023 Memorial Day sales ad still list 4 locations.

• Guam - Still open. (Just reopened after a recent cyclone had hit the island.)

What needs to be done? The Infobox needs to be updated by removing Puerto Rico from Area Served. The "2019–present: New management and further decline" section needs to be updated to show that Kmart has left Puerto Rico in October 2022. Use the El Nuevo Día citation for store closure.

References

23.25.58.41 (talk) 02:26, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

We've been waiting for updated sourcing to appear. We can't use social media posts, and elnuevodia published a story about a store being expected to close, but they never updated when it actually did. MrOllie (talk) 12:43, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

@MrOllie: Would the store directory website for Plaza Las Américas be considered a reliable source? The mall has since removed Kmart from their current store directory, but the store was listed in archived versions taken before the supposed closing. The island of Puerto Rico might be small enough that a newspaper article about the actual door closing may not be consider important enough to be published since it might be obvious to most residents who can just drive/walk by the shopping center. If we cannot consider that Puerto Rico store is actual closed, should the actual store count in the Infobox be increased by one then? 50.231.49.42 (talk) 17:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

We should have a proper citation for any changes (a story directory doesn't work either) - that includes changes to the info box. MrOllie (talk) 17:39, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

@MrOllie: How about a The Record (North Jersey) published newspaper article from December 2022 that mentions "Only eight Kmart locations remain, with three in the mainland United States, one in Guam and four in the Virgin Islands..."? Would that be useful for the wiki article? Puerto Rico definitely not mentioned. 50.231.49.42 (talk) 14:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

::::I don't see why that article wouldn't be a valid source. 104.192.24.154 (talk) 07:05, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I edited the page to reflect the fact that the San Juan, Puerto Rico, store closed in October 2022, leaving only 8 Kmarts still open (not 9). My change was reverted. Why? Ron Newman (talk) 13:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Read this thread and the previous thread that discussed this. As user:MrOllie said in his summary, your edit was undone for failure to provide a source. The source we use in the article says that there were 9 as of April 2022. You did not provide a new source to show that the Puerto Rico store actually closed.

As for the new source proposed by the IP, I would accept it as a reliable source assuming the quote is accurate, but it is paywalled and I can't access it, so it would have to be added by someone who can actually read the source. Meters (talk) 17:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

It's been more than two months and no-one has verified the IP's paywalled supposed source from Dec 2022. Meters (talk) 19:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

OK what about this source? According to this one, there are 7 stores currently. https://stthomassource.com/content/2023/06/07/one-kmart-on-st-croix-to-close-retail-consulting-firm-reports/ 104.192.24.154 (talk) 23:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

It lists 7 stores, but it does not explicitly state that that those are only stores. It says " Only a handful of Kmarts now remain, including two on St. Thomas, two on St. Croix, one in Guam, and two on the U.S. mainland." Meters (talk) 04:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

::OK, what about a video OF AN ACTUAL LEGIT USVI NEWSCAST? If you listen carefully at the end, the reporter mentions the count of remaining Kmarts. She mentions how many Kmarts are left, and where. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNZCGI0eEs0 104.192.24.154 (talk) 01:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Last Kmart in Puerto Rico closed

Is there any source for the last Kmart in Puerto Rico finally being closed because I found a source about it in elnuevodia.com

I tired using that, but it kept being reverted. RobloxMiner$$ (talk) 03:34, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

As explained in the talk sections above, elnuevodia covered an announcement but never ran a second story to confirm that the store closed as expected. MrOllie (talk) 03:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Can we at least remove Puerto Rico from the areas served w iron since Kmart is no longer in Puerto Rico, and change the number of locations to 8? RobloxMiner$$ (talk) 17:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

No. We need a source that says '8' to change the article. MrOllie (talk) 17:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Without Puerto Rico, it wouldn’t make sense to just leave it as 9 locations. Maybe we’ll wait until the next time Kmart announces how many stores are left (including US territories). RobloxMiner$$ (talk) 23:48, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no deadline. We can wait until updated reliable sourcing appears, especially since the alternative is forbidden on Wikipedia per WP:NOR. MrOllie (talk) 23:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

That's fine, we can wait. Just Saying, y'all might be waiting a long Time. The reason such sources (that a store actually physically closed) are so hard to find, is simply for the fact that many sources will report that a store is starting the liquidation process, in other words they will report that the store is closING. But none (that I'm aware of), or almost none will ever report that a store has finally closed. I have yet to see one in my life, but I could be wrong. It is just not an interesting enough news story, for most media outlets to announce when the actual liquidation ends, as opposed to when it begins. So there might never be an article stating that the Puerto Rican store, for example, has officially closed (although it actually did close last Year). Just some insight. 104.192.24.154 (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Sooner or later they'll be down to 1 (or zero) stores, which will trigger a new round of coverage. MrOllie (talk) 22:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't think it will ever reach 1 or zero in our LIFETIMES anyway, due to the simple fact that the 3 in USVI, and 1 in Guam (unlike the mainland stores) are very Profitable. Old source, but still is true: https://www.dontwasteyourmoney.com/guam-popular-kmart-world/

But, for the sake of argument, even if that happens, you'll likely get the announcement story, for when the stores are closING, but not when they are closED. So even if there is only 1 Kmart left, then they'll certainly be articles when that 1 starts closing, but unlikely will there be one to announce the decidedly unsexy story of the liquidator wrapping up on his last Day. 104.192.24.154 (talk) 22:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Not really. Such stories get written all the time, here is an example. MrOllie (talk) 23:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

OK, that's 1 rare example, so you got me there. However, (as far as I can find), in 95% of closings, such articles are usually NOT written upon the closing's completion. So I wouldn't state that they get written

"ALL THE TIME". But ya,one can always find an exception or unicorn. 104.192.24.154 (talk) 05:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

https://techskybeat.com/how-many-kmarts-are-left/ Mmartinezmdr (talk) 22:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

however, some say that there are "20 stores" Mmartinezmdr (talk) 22:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

That's why we don't use blogs or other selfpub sites. They're repeating a report that was already out of date when they wrote the blog. MrOllie (talk) 22:54, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

ahh. Will keep an eye on Sept 30. There should be articles as its the last NJ Kmart Mmartinezmdr (talk) 00:05, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Also, for the record, I'm yet to see a valid source for the closing Date being September 30. I saw a YT video with some guy mentioning that Date, but I have no idea what his source was, as I have found nothing in any valid source, pointing to that exact source, online. Please share a source if you have 1. 104.192.24.154 (talk) 05:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

August 7 2023 Kmart Update

This is the status of kmart and its stores

As of April 2022, Only 9 stores Remain.

2x St. Thomas 2x St. Croix 1x FL 1x NJ 1x NY 1x Guam 1x PR

As Of Today

2x St. Thomas (Both Still Up) 2x St. Croix (Sunshine Mall One Closed; Declared 6/5/23) (At Least 2 Sources Confirms That: https://viconsortium.com/vi-business/virgin-islands-kmart-west-is-closing-mall-owner-says-redevelopment-plan-will-provide-first-rate-center & https://stthomassource.com/content/2023/06/07/one-kmart-on-st-croix-to-close-retail-consulting-firm-reports/) 1x FL (Downsized 3-28-23. Pictures & Some YT Videos Confirms That & https://www.local10.com/news/local/2023/03/28/blue-light-blues-for-kmart-shoppers-as-one-of-last-standing-stores-gets-even-smaller/) 1x NJ (Closing In September Or October 2023. Declared Last Week: There are about 6 articles that confirms its closure and a YT video) 1x NY (Still Open) 1x Guam (Still Open) 1x PR (Closed October 2022. Was already there on Transform Co Page)

This will bring it to 6 stores. I tried to update it but @MrOllie reverted it and sent me here. Mmartinezmdr (talk) 22:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Please read the rest of the talk page. We cannot conduct WP:OR to track the number of stores ourselves. If you want to change it to '6' you need a reliable source that says '6'. We cannot change the article to be inconsistent with the cited source. MrOllie (talk) 22:45, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

UPDATE: https://dailyvoice.com/new-jersey/pascackvalley/attention-kmart-shoppers-final-jersey-location-shutting-down-in-westwood/ "Westwood store is closing September 30" Mmartinezmdr (talk) 22:45, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Scheduling for this sort of thing often changes. We need cites that something has closed not is going to close. See WP:CRYSTAL. MrOllie (talk) 22:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

alright. Westwood store. I'll circle back September 30 or beginning of October. Mmartinezmdr (talk) 22:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I hope you do, buddy, but again, the problem we are going to likely run into, is that there are always articles when a store STARTS CLOSING.

But there are almost never any, when a store has wrapped up liquidation, as it's just not a story that generates any interest from media outlets, unfortunately. 104.192.24.154 (talk) 22:56, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Not really true. I gave an example above. MrOllie (talk) 23:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Fair, but that example was an exception, not the norm. Of the most recent Kmart closings, from 2022, Hato Rey PR, Avenel NJ, I have seen no such articles, nor have I seen them for over 90% of the closed locations in the last 5 (OR SO) Years, since I started following this stuff. 104.192.24.154 (talk) 05:52, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

This standard isn’t used anywhere else to update locations especially in something niche. We won’t get any sources on Puerto Rico closing, which it certainly did months ago, due to it being Spanish and most American outlets didn’t cover it. TheUSConservative (talk) 19:18, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Close by the end of the month is also a deadline that the source used and has long passed so we know they won’t be updating it to reiterate it already closed when they preemptively said it would and gave a deadline. Unless there is a history of these store magically not closing when they said they were and lasting almost a year after it was reported to be closing the source seems pretty valid to call it a shut case that it closed. TheUSConservative (talk) 19:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:V and WP:CRYSTAL are a 'standard' (that is, policies) used everywhere on Wikipedia. We don't conduct WP:OR just because we're impatient to update the article. We have no deadline and can afford to wait for sourcing that actually supports article changes and is in line with WP:RS requirements. MrOllie (talk) 19:25, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

At the cost of accuracy I strongly disagree with that notion. If no one wrote anything about the end of something niche we would be forever burdened with the idea that it still exists even when it clearly doesn’t and multiple articles list a date it stopped existing. No one is covering Puerto Rico. Tell me one source that says it’s open. TheUSConservative (talk) 19:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Why are we using this strict standard for stores we know closed but not for stores we have no sources for that are even open. We have no source that claims Kmart PR is open at all. Not one. Zip. TheUSConservative (talk) 19:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The absense of evidence is not evidence of absence. WP:NOR is core policy. You may disagree with it, but we all have to follow it. MrOllie (talk) 19:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok, however we do not follow this stringent rules when it comes to most of the locations Kmart has had. Almost none of them have had articles written about them after they closed. You can cite a few examples maybe, but no where near all of them or even half of them. Probably not even 10% of them got articles after they closed and we somehow must rely on the chance that it happens in this case. I just firmly disagree. TheUSConservative (talk) 04:11, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Periodically we get a source that says something like the 'only 9 Kmarts remain.' That confirms all the closures at once. We don't need an article for every store, nor should we really be using the ones that do exist because (once again) we shouldn't be conducting WP:OR by combining sources. I also reject this 90%/10% statistic being thrown around, which appears to be based on nothing at all. MrOllie (talk) 12:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

9 Stores Is Wrong. Per My Assumption Using The Articles From Brostocks (https://brostocks.com/2023/05/29/how-many-sears-stores-are-left/ & https://brostocks.com/2023/06/06/how-many-kmarts-are-left-in-the-united-states/ (Obiously, St. Croix Mall Store Is Likely Already Closed And Westwood Is Closing), It Should Eventually Be 17 Locations (6 Kmart & 11 Sears). But Once Again, An Article Is Needed. Mmartinezmdr (talk) 13:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Another example of why we don't use people's completely unreliable selfpublished blogs. MrOllie (talk) 13:58, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Does a YouTube video by someone from the area who was the last person to film the store saying it closed around the 2:30 mark count as a source? I’m curious. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=iAmQYdAxpQYan3hj&v=sUzZ04KDRPI&feature=youtu.be TheUSConservative (talk) 17:48, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS to get a feel for what is and is not a usable source. No form of social media (including youtube videos) should be used. MrOllie (talk) 18:16, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I might just be dense but what about if someone posts a photo or video of the location where the store was at and it clearly shows it either abandoned, not existing, or replaced by something else. At that point can we safely say it’s close? TheUSConservative (talk) 20:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

No. We have a long term toll here who has falsified sources in the past. We cannot rely on self-published materials. MrOllie (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

For the record, I agree with you, US conservative (from a fellow US conservative, I like your username BTW, LOL).

As I mentioned, even for US based locations, there are exceptions, but in over 90% of cases (probably closer to 98%), I have not seen a source stating a store actually closed. Again, I realize he posted such a case above, but that is extremely rare. Even for the 4 Kmarts that recently closed in NYC (the largest city and media market in the country), there exists no such article that I could find. Ditto for the Sears store in Brooklyn NYC. Again, plenty of articles at the start of liquidation, but few, if any, at completion.

Not my issue, if Wiki is inaccurate to the counts, so be it, but just pointing out, it will be very hard to find such articles. I'll leave it at that. Best....... 104.192.24.154 (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I saw the Westwood location closing all over news outlets and picked a nj.com source about it closing in Sept or Oct and wrote “The Westwood location is set to close in late 2023”. I read through WP:CRYSTAL and I don’t think that prohibits the statement there, as it’s from a verifiable source, is unbiased, and gives a timeframe, and says that it is “set to” close, meaning that it will unless something changes - and if something does change, then we’ll change it too. If it were to be prohibited by Crystal, then, by that same logic, this list of future Interstate Highways should be wiped clean because nothing here is “definite” and things could change. However, at this point I suggest you all seek a moderator to help you all out, as this is becoming unproductive. Jason Ingtonn (talk) 14:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Writing about planned events is exactly what WP:CRYSTAL is meant to prevent. MrOllie (talk) 15:03, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

If you haven’t already, a moderator should probably check that. It seems very odd to me that a simple statement like that isn’t allowed, especially with consensus in favor of including it. Jason Ingtonn (talk) 15:21, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

If by "moderator" you mean an administrator, admins on Wikipedia have no authority to override policy, and WP:CRYSTAL is a policy that clearly states: "Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place, as even otherwise-notable events can be cancelled or postponed at the last minute by a major incident." And if there is a consensus here (and I'm not saying there is), that also cannot override policy. If you want to change the policy, discuss at WT:NOT, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 16:52, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Liquidation Is Already In Progress. Im Guessing since many cant make up a date, we will likely expect an article declaring that westwood is closed. Mmartinezmdr (talk) 17:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I suggested having an admin’s input on whether or not the above edit I suggested would go against certain policies, and to settle this wide dispute as well. I did not suggest changing policies in any way. I say this because there is a lot of back and forth going on and questions regarding interpretation of policies. If anyone knows of an admin that can give a final say, please ping them to settle this. Jason Ingtonn (talk) 18:10, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

That isn't what admins do on Wikipedia. MrOllie (talk) 18:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Waiting a bit and repeating the same edit doesn't change the issues here - we shouldn't be covering planned closures per WP:CRYSTAL. MrOllie (talk) 22:55, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Most Agree With September Or October 2023. One Said 9/30/23 As The Close Date. Mmartinezmdr (talk) 15:36, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources

I don’t know if videos count as a source but this YouTuber who lives in Puerto Rico and filmed the last video inside that Kmart has said it has closed at around the 2:30 mark. Just curious. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=iAmQYdAxpQYan3hj&v=sUzZ04KDRPI&feature=youtu.be TheUSConservative (talk) 04:03, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Link also posted in above thread, and replied to there. Meters (talk) 16:20, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

WP: Crystal

I disagree with the application of this policy for the planned closure of the NJ location. The policy does not ban writing about planned events in the immediate future if they are accepted and well-documented. The policy gives examples like an upcoming election versus an election years from now. The planned closure is documented in the news and verifiable. It is not original research nor should there be any expectation it will be cancelled. poketape 07:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

At this point, it's literally just a few days away. I've looked in the above discussion regarding the WP:CRYSTAL issue- while I don't fully agree with it, it's honestly not worth it at this point. Hopefully there will be some articles about its closure after it closes on Saturday night. I actually live near the Westwood location- I'm planning on possibly visiting on Monday to see if there's any sort of sign saying about its closure. Magitroopa (talk) 19:13, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

We're not a breaking news service, and there is no deadline.. We can wait a little while for events to actually happen and for proper sources to be available. - MrOllie (talk) 19:16, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

You're seeming to take WP:CRYSTAL too literal, though. What you're saying is that it hasn't occurred yet (which is true), so it cannot be mentioned whatsoever in the article (which is not true). You seem to be going straight to the, "Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place" part, and skipping over the, "...should be included only if the event is notable..." part.

The other thing to point out is that the wording of it matters quite a bit in regard to WP:CRSTYAL. Putting in the article, "The Westwood location will close on September 30." does go against CRSTYAL, as it says, anything can change with it at the last minute. However, putting in the article, "The Westwood location is reported to be closing on September 30." does not go against CRSTYAL: just from doing a quick search, I see around eight different articles ([1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]), most of which I know are reliable sources, reporting it to be closing. I can currently only find one source reporting the September 30 date. Even then, with the other eight articles, putting in the article that, "The Westwood location is reported to be closing in fall 2023." and citing 1 or 2 of them certainly does not violate CRYSTAL. Magitroopa (talk) 19:57, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

By what you're currently saying, all Wikipedia article aren't allowed to mention something upcoming until it actually occurs, even if supported by sourcing. However, if COVID has taught us anything, this is why the article for upcoming film Captain America: Brave New World says that it is, "...scheduled to be released in the United States on July 26, 2024...", not, "will be released". Magitroopa (talk) 20:12, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

This article has a long history of trying to follow store by store closures up to the minute, which lead to a long, bloated article which just recited news headlines, especially when those plans would inevitably change, because store closures are not coordinated and tightly scheduled multiplatform marketing pushes like movie releases. I'm saying that was a terrible idea and we should not start going down that path again. MrOllie (talk) 20:18, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't regularly edit this article, so thank you for that information. However, that was then, this is now. Of course we don't want it going back to a whole bloated article, but at this point, being the final three in the continental US, the closures of these three should be mentioned, even if it's just within one sentence.

With the importance of these final three stores, I think the sentence should be restructured when the Westwood location does close. For example:

• As of April 2022, only 3 locations remained in the continental United States: in Miami, Florida; Westwood, New Jersey; and Bridgehampton, New York.[source]

Could probably be updated to:

• In September 2023, the Westwood, New Jersey location closed,[source] leaving the Miami, Florida and Bridgehampton, New York locations as the last ones in the continental United States.

As opposed to leaving the sentence the way it is and just removing the Westwood location mention. Magitroopa (talk) 21:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

By the way... no clue what day/time they actually closed at, but they certainly were all done prior to (what would've been) 7pm closing time today. Westwood, NJ Kmart has officially closed. (Imgur album with some photos I took today) Magitroopa (talk) 22:21, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

https://hekemian.com/property/westwood-plaza/ The property listing for the plaza Westwood Kmart was in shows the building as available and unoccupied. That seems to be a source. Not to mention we have pictures of the door that says it’s closed. TheUSConservative (talk) 04:36, 1 October 2023 (UTC)