Talk:Virginia Tech shooting

Motives

Stalking is a serious issue particularly on college campuses. The narrative in the section on Cho's motives alluded to his stalking female students and disturbing behavior in the classroom. The section was probably deleted to make the article shorter, but by making the article shorter it left out valuable information that may prevent further death. By minimizing the importance of stalking incidents, females do not report the incidents, do not go to court to get a protection order, no action is taken against the stalker (including serious psychiatric intervention) and sometimes this leads to deadly consequences. In fact, if only a single female were killed by a stalker or a domestic violence incident, there would not even be a reference in Wikipedia. In some jurisdictions, reports of stalking result in legal intervention and in others multiple reports accumulate and no action is taken. If more follow-up had been done in 2005 when the first complaints were made against Cho perhaps 33 more people would be alive today. Cherylyoung 10:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Although I didn't see the section you're refering, so I can't comment on what was in the section. Can you write something that is relevant, short and sourced into the article? You are very articulate and I believe you can come up with something, making sure there's some type of source too, so it won't be considered your opinion or original research. Thanks! Jeeny 16:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Details about stalking incidents were moved to the article on Cho Seung-hui, which is where it belongs, IMO.Sfmammamia 20:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You also might want to add

more quotes and refrences from cho's video because i can't edit on this comp

Excerpts from the video message that Cho sent to NBC

"You just loved to crucify me. You loved inducing cancer in my head, terror in my heart, ripping my soul."

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust fund ... your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough ... to fulfil your hedonistic needs."

"When the time came, I did it. I had to."

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/worldwide/story/0,,2060764,00.html

65.254.5.139 11:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. This would bring more unwanted attention to this sad human being which would have only helped get his point accross. I think the article on him is big enough as it is as well as the media attention. Let's keep it the way it is. CharlieP216 18:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The comments in the video and the manifesto provide insight into the motive. If we took a moral position not to address the rhetoric of evildoers Wikipedia wouldn't have articles on Hitler or Hussein.TimB 05:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning up Gun Control Debate section

This section has a number of NPOV violations and a few statements that are mistaken at best, or false at worse (ie, the quote about high-capacity magazines being illegal under the Federal Assault Weapons Ban -- only the manufacture and sale of new magazines over 10 rounds was illegal under the AWB, possession of old ones was perfectly legal, and they were easy to acquire in any gun or pawn shop, or over the Internet). I'm starting to clean it up, but would like others to pitch in too. --Tthaas 12:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

That is what was written in the article - and "clean it up" should not involve complete removal. Sad mouse 16:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

First and foremost cleanup to this section would be a clear understanding about so-called "reasonable gun control". The government does not control guns. They only control people. Therefore "reasonable gun control" is really just code-speak for "government control over people", a complete reversal from a government operating under the control and with the consent of the people it governed which formerly existed on the North American continent.

So the government banning murder and rape is code-speak as well? Gregohio 17:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hindsight has 2020 vision: That said, does Larry Hincker not sound, in retrospect like a complete sock puppet? Lowellt 01:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and people control the government, so it is people control over people. Huh. Anyway, this is original research (well... it is a rant, but I was being polite). Sad mouse 16:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that what will ultimately happen is that the gun control aspects will be moved to the appropriate (if I do say so) Gun Control Debate page, but I also propose a split page (eventually!) called Media Responses to the VA Tech Shootings. It hink that there is going to be a huge argument about the propriety of NBC and CNN (and shortly thereafter, everybody else) going wall-to-wall with Cho's videos, photographs, writings, and audio clips. This would also be a nice way to fold in the obvious Columbine discussion, ans the media response to THAT incident is likely to be reviewed with the same critical eye. I am not here trying to conduct a debate on the topic, only on where we should put the debate.Haakondahl 06:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It should not be moved - the shooting did not occur in a vacuum, it occurred in the real world. Therefore how the world responded to the shooting was an integral part of the event. Sad mouse 16:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"The name of the play [Richard MacBeef] is clearly alluding to William Shakespeare's play "MacBeth"."

I think that this addition to citation 44 should be removed. There is no evidence that it alludes to Macbeth in any way. If anything, it seems to be a reference to McDonalds:

No wonder your name is McPork - I mean McBeef. While the guys were packing on muscles, you were packing on McDonald's fat, chowing down on three Big Mac's[sic] in three minutes [1]

James Kendall [talk] 16:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, given focus on pedophilia in the play [2], I interpret the name as a crude genital reference, i.e., "Dick", "beef", in combination with the fast-food reference. Haakondahl 04:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Gun Control Debate

I think this whole section should be moved to its own article or to gun politics. We could include just a sentence like, "These events have renewed the debate on gun control." And that would be all that is necessary. I think this would cut down a lot of the length for this specific article, while retaining the information. So, either creating a Virginia Tech Gun Control Debate article or moving the content to gun politics is what I think we should do to reduce the length. Rooot 16:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong disagree at this time, particularly about moving it to gun politics where it doesn't belong (there is specific background to this event in the section). There is no rush at the moment to cut down the content, this can be done when the article settles down. -Halo 16:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually I do agree, I think gun control is a whole separate issue, and while mentioned here, should really not be debated here.--RobNS 17:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Strong disagree. Gun control is one of the primary topics raised by the shooting. Sad mouse 23:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Doubleplusstrong disagree. You are correct, yet the article is not about gun control. Another topic raised is the suitability of deathtrap old buildings as classrooms. Note Here, Discuss Elsewhere. Haakondahl 05:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

(new user, please be patient) - wow, it may be a Canadian perspective but for the issue of gun control to be considered a wholly SEPARATE issue from what happened? that's a consideration that causes not a little headshaking from our northern perspective. Anyway, to stick to the point of this talk page: here is something very relevant to the article at hand: "Dead Canadian's Daughter to Push for Gun Control" in her mother's name. Her mother was Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, whose French language classroom was the last stand against Cho and who apparently sacrificed her life for her students in barricading the door. It was also the hardest hit, with the fewest survivors, and was the room in which Cho chose to end his life. Her mother was a strong advocate of gun control. Not relevant, eh? This is the link: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/205046 wiki-stikler 19:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless the teacher was specifically targeted for her stance on gun control, it is not relevant. The opinions of victims' children are not relevant to the facts of the event itself. The debate on the causes and issues of the event is a separate, distinct issue. Thus, they may still be important and possibly included somewhere, but not in this article. The article is too long as it is, and these topics can be moved to a separate page. Also, I don't understand your first two sentences. Rooot 19:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree, I seriously doubt she was targeted due to her stance on gun control. Cho made no mention of gun control in his letters. Any debate on gun control in United States and/or Virginia is a long drawn out affair with multiple sides presenting multiple arguments. On a personal note, as American Citizen and Virginian, I imagine her daughter is going to find little sympathy in Virginia Congress. They can't stand a New Yorker Mayor, they are not going to put up with a Canadian. Rabbit994 20:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, as a foreigner living in the US I am amazed at how many people here want to pretend that the shooting has no reflection on gun laws. Sad mouse 23:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you are mis-stating the opposition unfairly. Please see my response (immediately following this) to "Wiki-stikler" for more.Haakondahl 05:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Obviously (I claim) gun control is an issue closely connected to this event. On the other hand, so are a myriad of mental health debates, media (ir-)responsibility debates, building design (a factor in the death toll cited on some TV reports) debates, open campus policy, and any number of other strongly connected issues. Obviously these things have or could have their own rambling articles. The only practical thing to do is mention the issues here as they bear on the shooting itself, and link to them. Some people will want to turn this article, and indeed the event itself, into a forum for debating American laws on ownership and use of firearms. These attempts will come from the pro-X and anti-X sides. A pox on both of their houses. This article is about the shooting. So I agree with Rooot. Haakondahl 05:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

We could cut down the length of the section by getting rid of International media response. Most foreign news editors are even less educated about US gun issues than the US media, and their response is predictably and uniformly negative. Moreover, the influence of the foreign news media on the US gun control debate is probably close to zero. Both of these factors make the International media response not notable, in my opinion. I nominate this sub section for deletion. The US media response will at least have some influence on the gun control debate.Kevinp2 22:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The truth is most foreign news editors are less biased in such issues contrary to American media outlets that are always biased ( and annoying). International media response has to stay if the whole article needs a more objective outlook. Hahahaha1 22:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

From reading the list of foreign news editor opinions, they don't seem to be unbiased, do they? (Unless they subscribe to the common school of thought that one's noble self is always unbiased). In any case, they have little exposure to and understanding of US gun issues. They contribute little to this article. Kevinp2 22:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be a page called Proven Objectivity and Superior Understanding of Non-American News Editors concerning Events Ocurring in America. Or perhaps not. Haakondahl 05:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I find that the international media covered the issue quite well. Besides, that is the international response to the shooting, I think it is heavy bias to leave in all minor responses by schools and sports companies, but to remove the major statements by word leavers. Sad mouse 23:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

If you think that they covered the debate well, you must unfortunately not know very much about US gun issues yourself. Moreoever, the international media may like to think of themselves as world leaders but they aren't elected to be so. They are indulging in their characteristic grand standing. Leaving them in here makes as much sense as having New York Times op-eds about the collapse of the Paris Airport Terminal.Kevinp2 14:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

i agree with kevinp2, kinda. I feel that the overall section is relevent and important to the article. But i don't think the section really needs to be that big. There is a lot of useless information, and the section could be cleaned and croped into something worth having-Threewaysround 22:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, here is something I recommend deleting. 'On the other side of the issue, the Conservative Voice contrasted the Virginia Tech massacre with the Appalachian School of Law shooting in 2002, when a disgruntled student killed only two students before he was subdued[118] by two other students with personal firearms they had retrieved from their vehicles, declaring that "All the school shootings that have ended abruptly in the last ten years were stopped because a law-abiding citizen—a potential victim—had a gun."'

The Conservative Voice is not a well-known source - Wikipedia doesnt have a page about it. I mean, to put in in a section where all the sources are well-known newspapers/media outlet makes the presence of this source a bit ridiculous.Hahahaha1 22:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree and tried to argue this point before, especially because we can verify that their statement is false. Sad mouse 23:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

No problem provided that you replace it with another well known source that provides a similar position in the debate. Kevinp2 22:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats now how it works in wikipedia if I am not mistaken. We cant use ridiculous sources just to present one side of the debate. Since you are soo adamant about such a source to be placed there, you are the one that needs to bring another 'well-reputed' source that will point out such a view.

If there is no well-reputed source source, then there should ideally be no place for such a view in the article.Hahahaha1 23:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

agreed, remove anything that is wrong, and if someone can come up with a well researched conservative opinion then it can go in. Sad mouse 23:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

exaclty take out that, and stuff like that and we could have something pretty good-Threewaysround 22:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You'd have a horribly biased article. At the moment, both sides are represented - whether you agree with them or not -Halo 23:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

And again, that is not the wikipedia standard - we do not give all sides of a position equal weighting regardless of the quality of the arguments, we show each side exactly to the extent to which they can verify their position. An unverified conservative or liberal position should be removed, and not left in simply to fulfil 'balance'. An encyclopedia is not about showing everyone's opinion, it is about arriving at the most verifiable position. Sad mouse 23:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia standard, however, is to present both sides of the debate. The Conservative Voice's point about the Appalachian Law shooting, and how it was stopped by law-abiding students with guns, is still apt and should be left in. Here are some possible alternate sources for the Conservative Voice's side: *Ann Coulter

• Baltimore Towerlight
• American Chronicle

Mentions Suzanna Gratia, who worked in the cafeteria in the previous worst school shooting in Killeen, Texas. She always carried a gun with her until she started worrying about the legality of it (Texas had no concealed carry laws at that time). When a shooter entered the cafeteria, she reached for her purse instinctively and found no gun. Her parents and a total of 23 people were killed by the shooter. Her friend also had a concealed weapon and pulled it a second too late, right as the killer shot her. Both women are now concealed carry proponents.

• Purdue college newspaper editorial-- Concealed guns should be allowed on campuses
• Cleveland Plain Dealer
• The National Ledger
• TIME-- covers Suzanna Gratia case in Killeen shooting
• Hawaii Reporter

It's not hard to find these sorts of sources... now you can put these in rather than the one that is presented. ---Gloriamarie 03:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for providing these links, User:Gloriamarie, I will also review them today as time permits Kevinp2 14:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that I, as a recent VT alumnus who was friends with both a survivor (in the French class where 11 died) and the brother of one of the victims, am disappointed that 1300+ words were given to the gun control debate. Gun control is certainly relevent to the article, and the massacre relevent to the gun control debate, but it strikes an emotional chord with me to see such a large percentage of space (~25-30%) dedicated to what essentially breaks down into politics. Let's not let the fight to balance political opinion distract from the real essence of what happened there. Summarize here, and start a new article - that's my vote on this. David Schroder 16:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the others: there should be a separate article about this incident and gun control. Columbine and the shooting of President Reagan both provoked a great deal of debate about gun control. This will likely be no different. Gregohio 18:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I concur that the whole section should be deleted & anything new be moved to gun politics. This is one of the fastest growing articles in all of Wikipedia. Less than 24 hrs after the incedent, a large B-class article was created with more than 5 archives of discussion. I haven't seen this in any other article, therefore I want to make this a Good article. We removed all the unsourced & unimportant material, so let's keep on track by deleting all the drama about gun control. We could create a new article about the effects of this event on the debate of guns, something along the lines of Virginia Massacre's effect on gun con control.--Wikiphilia 18:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The only problem with moving this article's Gun Control Debate to the Gun Politics article is that we kick the can down the road to that article, which will logically and inevitably continue to grow as people will add sections about every massacre or gun incident that ever occurred. The best options that I see are: Create a standalone article called Gun Control Debate surrounding the Virginia Tech massacre or decide that there will simply be no gun control debate related to this incident at all. Which incidentally, seems to be happening in the real world as well.Kevinp2 19:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there any way to shorten the references section?

It's just that part alone is good-sized segment of the entire article... HalfShadow 21:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

that's a good thing-Threewaysround 21:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but the article is getting into the 60Kb+ range, and eventually some pruning is going to have to be done. Are all of the references necessary? HalfShadow 21:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

the article is still new, and still has a lot of hype about it. It's been an editing, and vandalising frenzy. After it stablises i'm sure someone will go through all the refrences to make sure they are relevent. But right now the article is evolving too quickly to do any real good.

i get your point, i'm just saying to wait a bit for it to calm down-Threewaysround 21:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I have been consolidating some that are clearly the same source, which has shorted it by about 5. Once the article is more stable, I think we should go through and prune some of the earlier articles, since later articles say all the same things and more. Other things have multiple references where it's clearly unecessary. For example, one statement about George Bush's statement references the statement itself and a news article about it, which is clearly unecessary. But I think we should hold off until the article is somewhat stable.

In the mean time, we should all be careful when we add references to make sure we're using the most concise reference we can. Natalie 21:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think the fact there's an extra few kilobytes for sources is a bad thing at all, so I respectfully disagree with you... -Halo 22:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

We can cut down references without removing any sources: most major print news outlets in the United States recycle AP and Reuter's stories for a majority of their content. When the end of the article says "The Associated Press contributed to this story" that means the AP wrote it, and whatever media outlet is publishing it just slapped a different paragraph in their somewhere. Also, all of these online stories have been updated several times, and we are occasionally using multiple versions of the same article. Those are clearly unecessary, and nothing is lost by removing them. Natalie 00:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Reasons for the shootings

Does anyone know of any source for the writings where he explains his motives? There are media reports with brief passages in which he explains why he did what he did, but they are very vague.Maziotis 21:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is a link to a "play" that he wrote that got one of his teachers worried. [3] Other than this, it seems that most of his manifesto was video, other than a few scattered notes found in his dorm room. I don't think those have been released yet. Wrad 22:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I know it's unscientific, but he appears to have just gone batshit. HalfShadow 22:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

yes, I think I understand what you mean. We may never find the "real reasons" as it may not be such a thing. But I think it would be of great interest to understand something about what happened trough his own words.Maziotis 22:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Some of his 'manifesto' was directed towards the 'rich and hedonistic' but to be honest, not a lot of it made sense or was even coherent. I think he just broke. HalfShadow 22:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Should we post recent speculations on the news about his mental state. Schizophrenia, etc? Wrad 22:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

no, not till we can source anything. We can't say anything that someone else hasn't already officially said-Threewaysround 22:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Fact of the matter is the shooter had a massive crush on the girl. She probably spoke to him a couple of times and judging by his mental state - he probably fell head over heels for her and started stalking her. Add his mental state and a couple of guns - we have an incident like this.

However this cannot be verified or anything because none of us can show as proof what was going on in the gunman's mind.

So theoretically, the motive for the shooting is unknown but for all practicall purposes, he was stalking a girl whom he had a huge crush on. Hahahaha1 22:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

i was under the impression that it was his girlfreind (might be outdated news) but yes. -Threewaysround 22:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

That news was inaccurate. Somewhere in the article it should say that police initially thought that the first girl's boyfriend or ex-boyfriend was the culprit, and were looking for him, but Cho was not that person and had no prior relationship with her (other than possibly stalking her).Chunky Rice 22:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

He was supposedly stalking someone, but that's all we know. HalfShadow 22:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)We have that - it's in the "Perpetrator" section: "Early reports suggested that the killing was the result of a domestic dispute between Cho and previously alleged girlfriend Emily Hilscher, who was later revealed to have had no prior relationship with Cho.[24]". As far as his motives, I'd say it's rather clear that he was crazy, but until that's in a secondary source we can't print it. Personally, since the article about Cho quotes some of his writing, we don't have to point that out - he illustrates his own insanity just fine. Natalie 00:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The media is saying, now, that it was not his girlfriend. They said it was mistakenly assumed. Although it's still not clear how he knew the girl and how well, if at all, but doubt it was his girlfriend from what I heard and read from many sources. Who knows why people do this type of horror... there can't be a "logical" reason at all. There is no logic to killing people indiscriminately. I think that's why they call it "crazy" and or "evil" there are no other descriptors to rationalize such behavior. I think HalfShadow's term, "batshit" fits. Who can figure that out? It's so sad. Jeeny 22:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I came to my conclusion based on the following information 1) His first victims were the girl and the RA. The chances are high that the RA got killed because he was probably doing his job and telling the shooter to get out of the hall. The killer went on to talk about 'You could have prevented it' or something like that in his video. It would most likely be the girl since he had killed only two people at the time he sent the video. 2) The shooter has a history of stalking women. 3) The girl had a boyfriend(not the shooter) at the time of the shooting. Its there on facebook if anybody wants to verify that.(cant use that for a source - I am just providing info) Hahahaha1 23:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Holden Hall photo

This discussion has been removed. Please see [4] if interested. --BigDT (416) 03:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. Natalie 02:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Would anyone have an issue with blanking this section and simply leaving a link to the diff for anyone interested? I'd hate to have him read this discussion and get the wrong idea. (Keep in mind, also, that WP:BLP applies everywhere, not just in articles.) --BigDT (416) 02:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not just archiving it ASAP. The discussion is pretty much over, and it seems inlikely that he'll be reading the archives. Natalie 02:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, if it is archived, it still shows up in search hits and mirrors. I'm being WP:BOLD and removing it. --BigDT (416) 03:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"Too long" box?

Ahh, not a fan of the too long box, all of the current efforts aimed at "shifting content elsewhere" are proposed for deletion. -Phoenix 22:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. I think the problem is we have a long article, and if we split into separate articles they get AFDed - damned if you do, damned if you don't. There's also the fact there's hundreds of references making it seem longer than it is - I'd say a good third or so of the article size is references -Halo 23:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed, but from the looks of it, they're headed towards a "keep" or a "no consensus" result, which, as a practical matter, means that they are kept. And the article is too long.Chunky Rice 23:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not denying that it's too long, but people will go creating dumb articles that will get deleted. The current deletion efforts will stay or have no concensus as is stated above, but it could get messy. -Phoenix 23:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Two things to consider:
    1. The "Inaccurate media reports" section is quite significantly out of synchronisation with the sub-article Inaccurate media reports of the Virginia Tech massacre. All of the original research, still tagged here with {{fact}}, and statements about Geraldo Rivera, who isn't actually mentioned in the sources and which is thus also original research, has been purged from the sub-article and replaced with sourced content. So that section here needs rewriting to bring it into line both with what the sources and the sub-article say.
    2. There is a title dispute, I suspect (although it hasn't been explicitly stated) about the word "Inaccurate". It might be worth removing that word.
  • Uncle G 23:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Given 1) this article is very long, and 2)the consensus on many of the subarticles AfDs is leaning toward delete, maybe we just have too much information here. Recentism and cruft look very similar after time has past, and the problem may be that we want to include everything, even though that doesn't really fit in with summary style. Natalie 00:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
      • The consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wayne Chiang currently appears to be keep and merge, either to here or to a media reports sub-article, and there is no consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Sneed, although it should be noted that several strong opinions to delete have changed now that the article does not pretend to be a biography. That this article is very long is an indication that Wikipedia:Summary style sub-articles like the media reports one will be appropriate, and my two points, about bringing the main article into line with the sub-article and fixing the title dispute, still stand. Uncle G 09:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Please tell me why somoene keeps archiving my question..

Someone keeps archiving this question. Someone please tell me why, or answer it. It's relevant to this article. There was an image on here yesterday that showed the shooter and another person both wearing masks. The other person appeared to be Caucasian. This image was in the article last night. Does anyone know what happened to it, Where it came from, why it was removed?Wikidudeman ^(talk) 23:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know anything about it, but it was probably removed because it was unfree, or had no source information. -Phoenix 23:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I never saw it on the news anywhere. It would be evidence that Cho possibly had an accomplish.Wikidudeman ^(talk) 23:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Umm, that's accomplice. In any event, the fact that it wasn't on the news just adds it to the long list of as yet unproven facts about the incident. -Phoenix 23:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I looked into the archives and I can't find it. It was on here about 18 hours ago. Around 1 AM this morning for me, 7pm here. I find it hard to believe the image would make it to wikipedia but not the national media. If it was erased from wikipedia, would it still show in the archives? Wikidudeman ^(talk) 23:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It was probably a hoax or something. Of the hundreds of established users monitoring this article, someone would have noticed if it was a worthwile image and mentioned something. -Phoenix 23:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

This really isn't the place for this kind of independent detective work and accusations of assisting a murderer.Chunky Rice 23:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Especially by deducing so based on one image; which, evidently, was probably some sort of hoax. -Phoenix 23:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Err,Detective work? I'm just trying to get information on the picture because it's relevant to this article. I want to know where it came from and why it was deleted. Did anyone see it on the article last night?Wikidudeman ^(talk) 23:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

If you're so interested, go back in the history and have a look around the time you claim to have seen it. Provide a URL to the revision, and we'll all have a look. -Phoenix 23:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I did. I can't find it. If it(the image itself) was erased from wikipedia would it be shown in the page histories?Wikidudeman ^(talk) 23:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, no, but a red image link would be in its place, at least showing that it was there. -Phoenix 23:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't seem to find it. It might of only been there for a few minutes and then removed after an edit or two, which would make it too difficult for me to find. Basically the picture showed Cho and someone else (Caucasian, blue eyes) who were both wearing ski masks and both had a pistol in their hands. The color of the masks was sort of a camouflage greenish color. I'm just wondering if anyone else saw it or removed it for some reason.Wikidudeman ^(talk) 23:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I did see the image at a couple of different points and I believe it has been deleted. I'm not 100% sure of the reason and I don't know who the deleting admin was, but I'm guessing one of three things: obvious copyright violation, no source information, or obvious hoax. Natalie 00:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The images are Image:Cho1012.jpg and Image:Cho101.jpg uploaded by User:Uifz. Based on available information, the images are highly dubious;

• The person wear a face mask, so we can't ID him from appearance
• Uifz has not provide any information about the circumstance of the image, despite being urged to do so at his talk page
• Uifz, at different time, presented three different stories regarding the source of the images, (1) pd-self, (2) from a friend, and (3) sent by Cho to NBC.
• In the newer version, the image was cropped to hide the nametag and the "US Marines" tag that was visible in the earlier version.

User:Uifz is welcome to provide further infor.; but at this point, the images are suspected hoaxes. I urge admins to delete them immediately. --Vsion 01:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Article image

Ok, I think it needs to be decided exactly what image will be used on the top of the page, because the previous image of the campus seemed to be just a randob image that didn't really illustrate the event, but the current cell phone video image of students in the building cowering also doesnt seem right.Rodrigue 23:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The first image was there only because no usable free images were yet available, and it's difficult to prove that "no free images are availabe illustrating the same thing", in terms of fair use. The cell phone is at least a live image from within the incident. The article is young, an acceptable image will come along soon enough. -Phoenix 23:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I liked the previous photo. I strongly dislike the current photo as it's just poorly taken (is that the right word?) - grainy, out of focus, and not a very good photograph. I certainly don't fault the photographer as that was a difficult time to concentrate on one's photographic skills but it's not a very high quality photo to use as the topmost and therefore most important or representative photo. If that's the look one wants to go for (similar to a producer's choice of handheld cameras to convey a sense of realism), then I respect that stylistic choice - but I disagree with it in this case. --ElKevbo 23:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with this. While the hallway image is perhaps more relevant, the memorial image is still quite relevant enough and far better on its merits as an image, which is important for the infobox image given its high-profile status. --Kizor 00:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not post a picture of Cho? I'm serious, anytime we see that face we'll think "Virginia Tech", nothing relates to the shooting more than him. --jmrepetto

Victims section, its existence and contents

The victims of the massacre currently have their own page, which lists them in relative detail, and a small section in this article, which gives their names in a compact form. The victims page is currently undergoing an AfD and there's been a fair bit of seesawing over how they should be covered. I and Yksin figured that talking things out would be much more productive than undoing each other's work, and that a significant change like this should be discussed in peace.

To reiterate myself from user talk, the names of the victims are quite useful to have in the main article. They provide single-click access to those victims with articles - legit ones, I know student victims' articles are getting zapped as we speak, but several faculty members have passed WP:PROF. (The fairly ugly template with these links is losing its TfD and was removed from the article.)

More importantly, it needs to be mentioned that five faculty members were killed, and the victims section accomplishes that efficiently and elegantly, giving the reader more information at a glance than what could be given in the text without greatly disrupting the text flow. Repeated mentions in the text were clumsy and I saw no real way to improve them. And when at least some of the faculty members have proven independently notable, there's no real point in saying that five were killed and not saying who they were, forcing the reader to hunt for that information. --Kizor 00:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but I really think that we can lose the list in the main article. One sentence underneath the link to the list page, giving a basic breakdown of the numbers would be at least as easy to read as an entire list, when determining the number of professors vs. students, if that's something that is important. Further, I think it is perfectly reasonable that a person looking for information on specific victims would go to the list of victims. It just makes sense.Chunky Rice 00:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this. I also must admit that the way it's currently formatted strikes me as unaesthetic, though I'm willing to give a try at figuring out a better formatting if it turns out the list has to come to the main article. I'm hoping that won't occur, as the article is lengthy as it is & the list looks very good as it is on the List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre page -- but we don't yet know how that AfD is going to come out (looks pretty even at the moment.) I hope that someone's got a copy of that article in their sandbox in case it does fail AfD, for the data on it. I already had to revert it once when one of those opposed to a victim list unilaterally blanked the page & turned it into a redirect back to this article. --Yksin 00:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC) -- P.S. I'm not so sure the template is losing its TfD... but I sure hope that if it's kept it's at least removed from the articles of those victims who have their own articles, because it looks truly tasteless & insensitive on those pages, in my opinion. --Yksin 00:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I've said this before, but I'll just reiterate here for the sake of argument. I personally feel that having a separate list for the victims strains the bounds of notability. Being that the size of the list is going to be limited (I doubt it will top 33, and if it does it certainly won't go over 40), there's no chance of it taking over the article. But I find that dropping the list in it's own section in the middle of the article really disrupts the prose and looks rather tacky. Thus, I think we should use a sidebox, ala the Columbine High School massacre and Bath school disaster articles. This will also dis-encourage people from adding crufty, memorial-type information to the list, which can be a concern, and provide a place to link to the professors' articles (4, if I'm not mistaken). As for information in the box, I think it should stick to name, age, faculty position/year in college, and maybe where they were killed. Natalie 01:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

While I disagree with the tackiness of the list, I wholeheartedly support the previously discussed idea of a sidebox, which would be an unobtrusive and very functional solution. The size of the article is no argument: The section is small and compact, a sidebox would be much the same, and the victims are a very important part of the massacre. If you want to trim, try trimming the monstrous and at points ridiculous response section. (I leave the article alone for one day and it grows to ten times its size... sheesh. :P) --Kizor 01:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the sidebox is an excellent idea, and I'm also in favor of trimming the response section. Most of that stuff is recentism and won't be notable in two months. A line or two of text explaining that other schools held vigils and what not should suffice for the purposes of an encyclopedic article. A Train^talk 01:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Most of the reaction was identical, and the specifics really have no bearing on an encyclopedia. If we cut that down to a general reaction with a few speciifcs for contents sake then the article will probably be of a readable length. --Jimmi Hugh 01:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Titanium Dragon 01:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The question of notability

Re: "notability," what I've found through the course of the many AfDs emerging from this & related articles is that a whole lotta people don't seem to understand what notability in a WP context even is.

Per WP:NOTE, "Notability guidelines determine whether a topic is sufficiently notable to be included as a separate article in Wikipedia. These guidelines do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by Wikipedia's guidelines on the reliability of sources and trivia" (emphasis added). So the issue in terms of notability is, "is the subject of the article notable or not" -- not "is every person/place/thing mentioned in the article notable or not", which is covered by the WP:TRIV policy. Now all of us seem to be able to agree that the Virginia Tech shootings is notable enough to warrant an article; most of us agree that a list of victims is non-trivial enough to include in the Virginia Tech article (though there is a vocal group who seems to believe that even this amounts to being "a memorial") -- but the major disagreement seems to be whether the victims list should be contained within the main article, or is large enough to require it to be split off into a subsidiary article, where it is at the moment (& undergoing AfD, its fate at the moment uncertain).

I would suggest that people decide that if they believe a victim list belongs with this article, whether within the main article or on a subsidiary page, that they also come to some consensus as to how much information is needed for each person, & what can be deemed "trivia" or "memorial." For the record, WP:NOT on memorials reads, "Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered." My stand is that while each of the victims was coincidentally fondly remembered by their friends/family, that does not detract from their notability as a group for being included as a list in this article or as a subsidiary of this article. Although the "lets delete them all" faction will disagree, I continue to believe that WP:NOTE and WP:NOT are both being used incorrectly and spuriously as arguments against retaining a list of victims and basic identifying info about them.

Now I'm going on vacation for a couple of weeks, & while I'll have my laptop, I don't expect to be doing much more than checking in during that time. Good luck. --Yksin 01:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you have an excellent point, Yksin, and I'll start the dicussion off: I think any victims list should be limited to the following: name, age, position at university or year in school, where killed. Nothing more. Natalie 01:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that, would add only place of origin. --Yksin 02:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

However you look at it a list of dead people cannot stand in its own right! It is not encyclopedia content, it would be an obituary. Of course leaving it on this page is fine as it simply adds points the the main subject. Basic information related to the University will be needed to ensure some level of notability within the article. --Jimmi Hugh 02:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Who said anything about it "standing in its own right"? Its importance here is because these of its pertinence to a major historical event. --Yksin 02:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Well actually you did. You mentioned editiing the list for notability whether it was in the main article or a subarticle. I agree it needs editing, but it is a single set of non-notable facts that cannot stand in an article of their own. --Jimmi Hugh 02:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

So sorry, but I don't regard a subarticle as "an article of [its] own." Its an article that is created because the main (parent) article has grown so large that there are size considerations, per WP:SIZE. It is a standard practice in Wikipedia for large articles to be broken up into smaller subsidiary articles to they don't mess up the ability to read for individuals who are still on 56K modems, or otherwise have slow connections. And if you were to go back & read my comments in the AfD debates for the Virginia Tech victims list, & the Charles Whitman victims list, you'll see that size of main article is consistently a criteria I use in stating my own opinion on whether such a list should be a subsidiary article or merged into the main article. --Yksin 02:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

As has been noted by more than one person, N is not additive; lumping together a large number of non-notable things is not notable itself. I am one of those who agree that the list of victims is not notable, but that is irrelevant. I don't think their names are necessary; it is obviously important to note that people were killed, and their names could be used inline if some narrative of the events comes to be, but a list is just gratuitious. A list of names is entirely meaningless and unremarkable unless the names in that list are remarkable unto themselves, and in this event, it seems there were two people max who died who were important enough to merit articles. Titanium Dragon 01:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The importance of these people's names is not even really from their notability, but because the basic facts about them add pertinent information about a significant event. As is the case for the Columbine massacre & the victims of Charles Whitman the UTexas clocktower sniper, who the "delete 'em all" faction have also been trying to get rid of these last couple of days. --Yksin 02:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

We've been trying to get rid of them because they aren't notable. These lists are nothing but effective memorials. Their names, their ages, their majors - none of this really matters at all. If you said X students and X faculty members were killed, it'd get across all the same information in far fewer lines. The rest is simply inconsequential, the same way we don't note minutate in every article. Its also very biased, as those who died in similar events don't have lists of victims for the sole and simple reason they weren't Americans. Obviously it isn't notable, as if it was notable, we'd have it for every such event; that it is only for Americans means it isn't notable, and is simply a way of eulogizing the dead. Titanium Dragon 05:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be trying to make some kind of WP:POINT about coverage of mass killings that didn't occur in America. If you're unhappy that those articles (whichever they are) don't include lists of victims, {{sofixit}} rather than trying to make that point here. The names and basic details of the victims here are important factual information about the event; indeed, the fact that these people were killed is the only reason we have an article on the killings in the first place. To leave the information out would create unnecessary imprecision; if we have the ability to be precise rather than vague, why would we elect not to do so? The names of the victims aren't in and of themselves any more notable than the names of the buildings where the shootings occurred, or the names of the plays written by Cho, or the name of the student who shot the cell phone video, and yet all of these facts are small but vital supports of the body of the article, and without them it would collapse into a heap of "there was this guy and he shot some people, the end". -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Tribute to self-sacrificing behavior

Ugh. I complained about "heroic actions" yeseterday, and this is the same thing. This is simply not an acceptable name for a section. Remember, Wikipedia is not a memorial. I'm tempted to just delete the entire section. This needs to go. Titanium Dragon 01:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the future my friend.. without the cold war to kick reality into people, chances are this is the kind of contnet the masses will want --Jimmi Hugh 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but the masses also want 9 pages of Simpsons trivia and "PENIS!!!!!!" in half the articles. Sometimes the masses are wrong. Natalie 02:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I do try and say that policy comes first when most people argue what the masses want, but unfortunately in this case, given it is a wording issue, policy has no case. --Jimmi Hugh 02:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. Titanium Dragon 02:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge, TFD, and AFD templates

This page and all of its subpages are extremely high visibility right right now. In the interest of putting our best foot forward, what would everyone think about confining xFD and merge tags to talk pages with a central list of discussions being considered kept here? Most articles that are up for deletion aren't exactly high-visibility ones. But these are. Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to keep the templates out of articles? There are enough people looking at this talk page that getting a consensus shouldn't be a problem ... on anything. --BigDT (416) 01:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• What reason do you have for pretending to people that our processes don't exist? I think that the fact that people can see our merger and deletion discussions underway, and see that experienced Wikipedians treat them calmly and civilly and in accordance with our policies and guidelines, aim for neutrality, verifiability, and elimination of original research, are careful about biographies of living people, and act to eliminate mis-uses of Wikipedia for attacks and soapboxing, is putting our best foot forward. Uncle G 09:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Have you seen the discussion I started at WP:AN#Virginia Tech massacre subarticles? Arguments for both sides are put forward there, and my final view is (currently) at the end. Also, did you know that the AfD debate for this article was recently deleted under G3? See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virginia Tech massacre and its deletion log. I'm currently trying to identify the spa that got blocked for creating it, but am having to trawl through the history of this page and talk page, as I can't access the deleted history. Carcharoth 11:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I saw it a couple of days ago. Uncle G 14:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Controversial theories sections

I've just nuked a completely unsourced, speculative, bullshit section stating that "some have claimed" that this incident was staged to provide a justification for the US to attack Korea. Those "some"... they're always claiming crazy things... Natalie 02:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I accidently left out an important sentence: on the off chance that someone legitimate has actually been making this ridiculous claim, please reinsert with sources. Natalie 02:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that is goofy considering Cho was South Korean, and the US's conflict is with North Korea. Gregohio 18:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Photos

Curious if anyone can verify the picture inside the classroom is from this specific event. I have not seen it on any other websites or CNN. As stated elsewhere, wonderful work editing. Neutralitybias 02:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

See http://www.collegemedia.com/ and scroll down to the "Monday, April 16th 2007 8:19PM" update. This is the same photo - the photographer released it under the GFDL. Holden Hall and Norris hall are actually both the same building so even though this class was in Holden Hall, they were near where the shootings were going on. --BigDT (416) 03:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Does this particular photo need to be the first one seen, in the template at the top? Jmlk17 03:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I have no opinion in that matter. I'm just answering the question.  ;) I kinda like Image:Norris hall.jpg for the infobox as it's more eye-catching, but I'm not picky. --BigDT (416) 03:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Missing Victims? More Victims?

There are reports on CTV today that the number of students killed in Couture-Nowak's French class - where the gunman took his life - may be incomplete. Out off 22 students enrolled, apparently only 12 are accounted for: 10 killed, in addition to their teacher, and 2 survivors, now in hospital. The foreign language department head, Richard Shryock, has expressed frustration with his inability to get information about the remaining students and the final moments in that classroom, and fears they may have perished also. Are there any other reports about unaccounted for students? Here is the link for the CTV (Canadian Television Network)report "Gunman committed suicide in Canadian prof's class" http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070419/cho_suicide_070419/20070419?hub=Canada wiki-stikler 03:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ismail's Ax

Why no mention of this name that he took on? It was tatood to his arm and was used in the return address for his package to NBC. Someone should write this up.

Read the gunman's article. So far it has no importance in this article. Gdo01 03:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

And finger's crossed people will note that he used the Biblical spelling not the Koranic spelling. Sad mouse 16:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Protected for the 57th time

No, it hasn't really been that many but it seems like it. Looking at the article, there has been nothing but vandalism for the last two hours and thus I have s-protected the article. I really hate having to protect it, but there has been nothing but vandalism and reverts for a while now. --BigDT (416) 03:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I support the semi-protection of this article. Vandalism levels are more than high enough to warrant it. WjBscribe 04:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The idea is to give high-traffic articles, as this obviously is, the chance to be unprotected. It is not to be done indefinitely for such articles, hence the constant reprotection. -Phoenix 04:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I prefer the article being semi-protected until the vandalism declines to a controllable level. 450w 19:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Weasel Words?

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the term “futile attempt” with regards to victim Jocelyne Couture-Nowak efforts to save students, constitute a weasely attempt to slight her inability to prevent the gunman from entering and killing her and students? None of the other victims in the article reference their “futile efforts” as a cause for their deaths. It just seems a little underhanded and snide, but mayarchibe that was the author’s intentions(?).202.128.1.120 04:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think "futile attempt" constitutes the use of weasel words. Futile simply means ineffective. I don't think that there's a snide connotation there. -Tess

Saying that a murder victim was ineffective in preventing not only her murder but the murders of others in the room kind of puts the onus and responsibility for the deaths on her and not the perpetrator. None of the other victims have their actions as being described as "futile.” Every victims’ efforts at survival were futile but only Ms. Couture-Nowak's actions have been singled out for some reason to highlight her failure, and it's because of that, that it seems a little weasel like.202.128.1.120 04:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't weasel-like at all. It is descriptive. She failed to barricade the door, thus it was a futile attempt. It is very clean and concise wording. The rest don't have futile because there's no need for it. The first person succeeded in evacuating their classroom; the person went to see if they could help and got shot. Et cetera. I don't see why you're complaining. There's nothing weaselly or putting the blame on the victim about using the word futile. Titanium Dragon 05:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I'm "complaining" in fact I started the whole thing by very respectfully asking, "Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the term "futile attempt"..." and I went on to explain my reasoning for thinking so. If that's your definition of complaining, I guess we don't need the talk forum since you can decide everything for us complainers with your declarations and pronouncements of "No, it isn't weasel-like at all." You're the boss dragon, sorry if my complaint wasn't in line with your decree. 202.128.1.120 05:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I was a bit harsh. I'm tired. Anyway, yeah, as is obvious from my prior paragraph, I don't think its a problem. Titanium Dragon 05:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I also attribute the word futile to failure or weekness, this is a trick of wording. It is often useful to avoid using negative words to describe yourself or another persons actions in life. EG. "I failed at a task" sounds much worse than "I was unsuccessful at a task" or "My attempt at the task was unsuccessful". This is because the word success gives the sentence a positive feel to it. (This also works for other words) It is just a trick of words that is useful to know. So if you were to change it, then you would change: "before making a futile attempt to barricade the door" to something like "before making an unsuccessful attempt to barricade the door". Thats my 2c anyway. AaronBoogle 06:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I think "before making an unsuccessful attempt to barricade the door" reads much better and doesn't make the woman sound like she was a failure in her last moments, especially considering that from the sounds of it, her actions in staring Cho down while hustling the kids to the back of the classroom sounds pretty heroic in my book. 202.128.1.120 06:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, synonyms of “futile” include “pointless” and “worthless” which are hardly fitting to describe the actions of a brave woman attempting to save the lives of her students. Mingus19 07:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

References to TV networks all messed up

I've noticed that some of the references no longer link to a relevant article. The TV networks seem to have a bad habit of using the same URL to post different content. --Uthbrian (talk) 06:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

As a rule of thumb, don't trust a URL of medium length. Like a blog, the permanent sites of articles have longer URLs. This doesn't always help--sometimes the article is actually moved to a daily/weekly/monthly archive train, with URL shifts along the way (no way to run a media outlet, for sure). If the URL contains obvious date information, good. If it is indecipherable AND LONG, better. Haakondahl 08:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

talk sub-page for tributes?

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an online chat forum. As such, it's usually accepted that tributes are not appropriate for talk pages, as seen on talk:Steve Irwin. However, as this article gets an increasing number of search engine hits, users might start posting tributes anyways. The thing is, if we keep removing tributes, people will think that we're pretty insincere. Therefore, I'm thinking about adding the following to the talk page header for now:

Please note that this talk page is only intended for discussion of changes to the Virginia Tech massacre article. Off-topic discussions, including tributes, are not appropriate and will be removed from this page. If you would like to post tributes, please use this page instead. Thank you for your cooperation!

Any thoughts on this? --Ixfd64 09:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that if we were likely to see any problem with this, we would have seen it already. Good thought, Ix, but unnecessary in my opinion. A Train^talk 11:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Chinese media/internet partial censorship as response to inaccurate US columnist claim shooter was Chinese

This should probably be mentioned here and in the relevant daughter article:

http://jamesfallows.com/test/2007/04/17/virginia-tech-shooting-one-american-woman-terrifies-china/

(James Fallows is a leading and renowned US journalist and author)

Delete or severely edit Other schools' responses section

The Other schools' responses can be pared down to a few sentences. Almost every college and university in the United States and many around the world had some kind of response -- a message from the president, a vigil, counseling offered to students, info on how they are prepared to respond to similar attacks, etc. By singling out a few in detail, it implies that these were the only ones. This entire topic can be summed up in a few sentences. Crunch 11:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Agree. I can't find a single notable event. I tried deleting yesterday but was reverted. Ronnotel 13:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I just trimmed the section. There is currently one sentence noting the responses by many other institution referenced by VT's very large collection of links to those responses. I left in those institutions that are actually offering physical assistance to VT or responders (counseling services, housing, etc.). There should probably be a sentence added about the reaction of colleges and universities who are reexamining their emergency response and communication tools, options, and processes but that could be a short sentence. --ElKevbo 13:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Your edits are more generous than I would have been but it's better. Thanks. Ronnotel 13:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I took a crack at filtering out some of the press release fluff while keeping the salient elements.Ronnotel 13:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Good edits. I think we're in pretty good shape right now. Like much of the article, this section will need to be watched to ensure it doesn't grow out of control. It's rather nice to be spending my time on good-faith and well-intentioned edits than blatand vandalism. :) --ElKevbo 17:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

i concur with Crunch & Ronnotel. it's sort of obvious that a large amount of sympathy would be directed at the students and survivors without having to enumerate individual organisations that sent that sympathy. tomasz. 14:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree Delete the section. Rooot 18:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Copycat threats

12 references for one sentence is overkill. The most prominent threats should be briefly described individually to better organize the section. Noclip 12:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fails WP:Notability, unlikely we will care about copycat threats three days from now. Do we care even now? I propose that the section be removed. Ronnotel 13:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Taken care of. I just moved it into a section above. I'm not sure about how appropriate where I moved it was, but I think its fitting enough. It stayed its own section like that for too long, IMO. _└^Jared_┘^┌_talk^┐  14:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm the one who moved it out of the "Other schools' responses" subsection. The copycat incidents are not schools' responses, they're responses by students or others at or near those schools. I've since renamed that subsection so I think we're okay. --ElKevbo 17:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Westboro Baptist Church??

Why is the information about picketing one of the student's funeral on the page? Is this really necessary? Zehly 13:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I removed it. Ronnotel 13:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Please change the headline from "Virginia Tech massacre." It sounds like a horror movie--more fodder for a copycat. Virginia Tech shootings would be sufficient. 72.73.29.201 13:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This has been a frequent topic - for now, the title reflects popular consensus among attributable sources. If a different term for this incident emerges in these sources, WP will change the title. Ronnotel 14:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Gun Control

People are using this article, esp. in the international media section, to argue for gun control. That is not the purpose of wikipedia. Unless plans are also made to completely end black markets and to close the borders with Mexico, it is not clear such tragedies really can be prevented. Gun-control is a complex topic that should not be merged into this article. We see that making drugs illegal has really kept drugs out of people's hands. This simply is not the forum to discuss such things. Please make this section NPOV — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.204.182 (talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:TALK for guidelines on how to discuss changes on the talk page - for instance, it's helpful to add new topics to the bottom of the page and to sign and date your comments by adding four (~)'s. Also, I'm going to move your NPOV tag to the Gun Control section, since it seems your issue is with that one specific area rather than the article as a whole. Hope this helps! Ronnotel 14:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Can't we just remove the NPOV tag altogether? I think that unless you are going to state specific reasons why the article is NPOV, the tag should not be added. Remember 16:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. User:68.55.204.182, please either i) let us know what specifically you'd like to change, ii) make the changes yourself, or iii) remove the NPOV tag from the section. Otherwise, I suggest that the tag should be removed. Ronnotel 17:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

There has been no explanation for what part of this section is actually POV, so I'm going to remove the tag. Tagging things as POV requires explaining how the section fails a Wikipedia policy on the talk page, not just a drive-by tagging because you don't agree. Natalie 19:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Verylong template

Why keep removing the verylong template? Is it because the article is so popular? If people see that it meets the criterion for a verylong article, maybe they will want to contribute to helping us split/prune the article and prettify(tm) it. Zehly 14:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The template is supposed at the talk page, see here: Template:Verylong. --Abe Lincoln 14:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I disagree about it needing the verylong template - if you remove the vast amount of references, the page is actually shorter than Columbine High School massacre, for example. I think people are being biased by the page size rather than the actual length. -Halo 17:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sexist?

How is it sexist to use gunman instead of shooter? Cho was a male and therefore a gunman. If we were talking about an unsolved crime where we didn't know who the shooter was, I could see the argument. I'm not really bothered by seeing "shooter," I just question the justification for the change. Lord Bodak 15:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The recent change seems silly in this context, and the word 'shooter' all the time is somewhat cumbersome. 'The shooter shot . . .' Move it back to gunman.--Fizbin 15:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Is not saying shooter a bit shootist :-), gunman it is, gunman it should stay. Unless you have authoritative prove that he was transgender, Or what about 'Gunner' not very sexist a term, a load of nonsense. User: Hyades

Don't use Gunner, you'll have a pack of raging Arsenal yobbos howling at your door. ;) Ronnotel 15:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I know what you mean from your part of the world, anyway starting to go off topic, was meant as a part of this load of 'nonsense' in reference to terms User:Hyades :-)

Gunman it is once again.--Fizbin 17:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. We say "actor" and "chairperson", regardless of whether the person is a man or a woman. Why is "gunman" appropriate as gender-specific when "shooter" communicates the exact same thing just as effectively? If Wikipedia is going to be gender neutral by policy (as it often is), why should this be an exception? 64.229.236.178 18:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I would use "actress" and "chairman/chairwoman" in those situations. I don't know that it's fair to say "we"... -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 19:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Some suggestions

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.^[?]

 Done Only full dates are currently linked. --ElKevbo 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.^[?]

 Done Image in use is free. --ElKevbo 16:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 9 mm, use 9 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 9 mm.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.^[?]

 Done (until more edits are made reintroducing these errors) --ElKevbo 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
  • apparently
  • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).^[?]
• Avoid using contractions like (outside of quotations): don't, don't.

 Done (until more edits are made reintroducing these errors) --ElKevbo 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rooot 16:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree, these are some good suggestions. Especially the thing about dates and the picture in the corner. Zehly 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Motive: Mental Illness

Is this the official motive as believed by law-enforcement? Zehly 17:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"International media response" section was copyvio.

I've removed much of it, as it was a copyvio from [5] - as such it now needs to be expanded. -Halo 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

uh, really? please ask yourself if it's absolutely critical to include something before doing so. It's already been marked as 'off-topic'. If anything, the section needs a good paring down. Ronnotel 17:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, well, I think the content /would be/ extremely relevant to the section - to show the worldwide media response to the gun control debate - but obviously not something that is a copyvio. I also disagree with your view that it needs cutting down - I even disagree with the implication the article is too long (it's much shorter than the similar Columbine High School Massacre article, for example) - I think people are being biased because the /size/ rather than the /length/ of the article - and it's certainly something that got widespread attention after the massacre -Halo 17:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, it was marked off-topic by you. Out of interest, why do you think that it's off-topic? The vast majority of it is directly related as a response to the massacre - whether background law in Virginia, the University's rules, or the fact it sparked debate and the two different points of view. I also don't see what content could be merged with Gun control, as implied. It's also accurate that it did reignite the debate over gun control - a quick look on Google News finds thousands of articles on the subject specifically talking about Virginia, and to not represent it, IMO, would be ridiculous. -Halo 17:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Showing the "worldwide media response to the gun control debate" belongs in a separate article specifically about the "gun control debate." The gun control debate has existed for a very long time. It has no bearing on the events of this discrete event. The only information that should be presented is what actually happened. It can be mentioned that this event has renewed interest in the gun control debate, but it is not the beginning of it, nor will it be the end. Thus, this whole section can be reduced to: "This event has renewed interest in the gun control debate." Rooot 17:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I utterly, utterly, utterly disagree in every way possible, and really don't understand your point of view at all. It's the /response/ to this debate, the /background/ to the shootings (Virginia's lax gun control laws, the University specifically disallowing concealed weapons etc etc) which are intrinsic to giving an accurate picture to the reader of what happened, and the media's response to it - of which, probably the most significant one, was about gun control. I honestly don't understand how you are arguing otherwise. The gun control debate is /completely relevant/ to this article, because it was a shooting, guns, and specifically gun control laws, were involved and it reignited a long-standing debate and there was widespread press coverage of it. And that's without even going into the fact I disagree that you think it's too long. I completely and utterly fail to see how you can say it isn't relevant! -Halo 18:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, then we need to include substantial sections on mental health, school bullying, violence in the media, child abuse, racism, materialism, etc. Because ALL OF THESE have been discussed at length in the media as the possible causes of the event. Singling out gun control as the main focus is biased because it indicates that this is the favored cause. That is simply not true. There is no favored cause, but all of these have been identified as potential causes. If we include one at length, we must include them all at length. This will make the article far too long. Therefore, they can all be mentioned, but they should be linked to separate articles that discuss these wholly independent topics. Rooot 18:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. IMO what you're suggesting is like in Cho's article putting "He had mental health issues" and then simply putting "Mental health" as the main article - it doesn't tell you anything, as all the /specifics/ and the /background/ that make it relevant are lost. I disagree it's singling anything out either, but it's representing a reignited debate where there was a significant amount of press coverage - as such, Wikipedia can cover it as it is biased towards things with multiple reliable sources that are widely discussed in the media due to the policy on WP:OR. I'd actually agree on significant sections on bullying, racism etc. etc. IF there were multiple reliable sources available with lots of information and press coverage, I'd agree, but this doesn't exist, and there is very little background information, so there are only mere sentences. -Halo 18:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Listing the specific facts is not what I am concerned about. The inclusion of all the unnecessary analysis and commentary is what is the problem. List the facts to give background, then link to a page containing the debate so that the reader can make up his or her own mind if they want to. We should not force this on the reader because it is a secondary issue. Rooot 18:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Then, if you agree with a section about the facts (the "background" section) you have the fact we're discussing over 4 paragraphs of "U.S. media response", one of which covers the viewpoints and the other two support it (which, IMO, is quite reasonable considering the several thousand articles on Google News about it and it summarises it in a tidy way) and an international section. Now, I'd support this being moved to a new article and a summary in the long run, but not now - as it'd inevitably be AFDed, merged and then we're back to square one which would be utterly pointless at this time. -Halo 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

But the facts don't need to be restated. One section of facts, and a link to the gun control page. All the responses should be put on the linked page. Just facts should be on this page. This is not "Time" magazine. Rooot 18:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

That is incorrect. If you actually look through the international media response, the commentary on gun control is far far greater than references to mental health, school bullying, violence in the media, materialism, etc. You are misrepresenting the international media to justify removing the section.Sad mouse 20:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

In the interest of accuracy, it should be noted that the International Herald Tribune is only sort-of international. It is based in Paris, but is owned by and most of its content provided by the New York Times. Le Monde or AFP would be a better French source.Gregohio 17:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It rather seems that there is an attempt here to censor the massive wave of criticism of US gun laws and culture found in the international media. Read some of it and it will be apparent that much of the world's media considers that the primary story. Gregohio 17:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If the law is the primary story, then the article containing that story should be primarily about the laws. Such as gun control. The only relevant information for this article are the events which actually happened. The policy behind anything is irrelevant to the discrete events that took place, but can be addressed in a separate article. Rooot 18:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

But what actually happened is that this guy, crazy as a loon, bought two semi-automatic handguns. Didn't steal them or get them on the black market, but from licensed dealers. And, the reaction to that is actually happening. Gregohio 18:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

And that is all that needs to be said in this article. The rest of the debate belongs in a different article, which we can link to. Rooot 18:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Imagine that! Gregohio 18:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Halo, you accused me of marking the article as 'off-topic' and then using that fact to support my argument. That's untrue. As you can see from these diffs [6] [7], it was Rooot who added that tag. Please be more careful in making accusations like this. Ronnotel 18:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I apologise, you have very similar names. -Halo 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Accepted, I can see how one might confuse our names. Ronnotel 18:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Cho May Have Referenced Book on Bullying

In Cho's videotaped diatribe that he mailed to NBC he made some statements that sounded to me like quotes from movies or books. My guess was that many of his strange statements were excerpts of "hot phrases" he had acquired over the years and not original. One of Cho's raging comments, "The decision was yours" struck me as such a phrase. Upon a Google search I came across a book with a cover that startled me - it shows a small Asian child on a bus being bullied by a caucasian child. Beside the Asian child's head is a large question mark. I believe it is very possible Cho came across this book at some point in his life and it may prove to be a key in unraveling the reasons for this tragedy. Check out my blog about this to see the book cover. - - When the Monster Breaks You - Cho Seung Hui — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.86.138 (talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 18:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Hi there, I'm afraid that's Wikipedia:Original Research which doesn't belong here. If a reliable source can be found, feel free to add it to the article, but until then please refrain. -Halo 17:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• My comments are in relation to Cho referring to himself as "Question Mark" and also that others also referred to him as the "Question Mark Kid". Maybe someone will pick up on this and research it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.86.138 (talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 18:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, if they do, good for them, but that's not appropriate for Wikipedia -Halo 18:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

'Package Mailing' included under Norris Hall Shootings

There has been a dispute as to whether the 'package mailed to NBC' incident should be mentioned in the Norris Hall attack section. Since the other pertinent actions of the gunman (some of which doubtless have not been revealed yet) are covered in the section on Cho, I do not think it is appropriate to include something that occurred earlier (namely the mailing) under the Norris Hall section.

Thoughts?- Markm62 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it IS important that he used the time between the shootings for mailing the package and should be mentioned somewhere in the section "Attacks". Maybe there might be a better place than the current in "Norris Hall attack". --Abe Lincoln 18:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps there ought to be a section between entitled 'Cho's Activities between Attacks' or something to that effect. Over time there will develop a better idea of what he was doing during the two hours such as gathering the chain and lock, packaging and/or sending the manifesto, etc. Thoughts?- Markm62 18:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Upon further reflection, the best place for the information is at the END of the first shooting section. Take a look.- Markm62 18:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think we need a whole section, especially considering that all the pertinent information can be conveyed in one or two sentences. Natalie 18:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks. --Abe Lincoln 19:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Formatting

In notes 100, and 108 some of the dates are appearing as red links. Can someone who has some knowledge of the ref formating system fix these? Thanks. JoshuaZ 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The first line of the Perpetrator section

The way the first line of the section says "Resident Alien of North Korea" right before his name just doesn't sit well with me. That is why I tried removing it twice, but each time I was undid by the same anon. Is it consensus for that to be there? --LuigiManiac 18:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

He was South Korean. North Korea is a separate country and has been for over 50 years. He has lived in the US for 2/3 of his life. Gregohio 18:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fixed -Halo 18:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks much better. --LuigiManiac 18:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Good lord. I'm surprised so many people don't know the difference between North and South Korea. Natalie 19:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Scenes of Resistance

"Kevin Granata left his third-floor office of Norris Hall and went down to the second floor as the second round of shootings took place. Reportedly he heard a commotion and went into the hallway to see if he could help anyone. He was killed there by Cho."

How is this a "scene of resistance"? It just says he walked into the hallway. It doesn't fit with the other's actions of barracading the doors... SGT 18:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The list is out of a now deleted section called "Heroic Acts". It was renamed since it is not NPOV. --Abe Lincoln 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

He left his office and 'tried to help people' and ended up getting killed. See http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070418/LOCAL/704180522/1196/LOCAL Over time more details will emerge.- Markm62 18:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It just seems strange to have 5 bullet points, with 4 of them describing people trying to block or barracade doors and one saying he "walked into the hallway to see if he could help anyone". I don't have a problem with it, but reading though the article it didn't seem to fit with the others. SGT 19:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments requested: Automatic archiving

Ladies and gentlemen, this talk page is moving at a fairly prodigious rate and, although it's not as fast as it was earlier in the week, it's becoming cumbersome to archive well. I made one effort to selectively go throw and archive only threads that weren't active anymore, but it was trying enough that I didn't attempt it again and I don't believe that anyone else has, either. By engaging the services of MiszaBot, we won't have to do the archiving ourselves and the bot will take care not to archive discussions that are currently active. Do we have a consensus to do this? A Train^talk 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but only if we can define what MiszaBot considers "inactive". If MiszaBot comes with a set definition that's too long (i.e. 1 week) then it will be less than useless, as we have accumulated close to 10 archives in 4 days. Natalie 18:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's doable - although I'm far from a bot expert, so maybe I'm offbase. I'll drop a note to Misza13. A Train^talk 19:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

off-topicness of gun control debate section

Can we discuss what should be pruned from this section? I'm not entirely sure which parts people think strays off-topic, so I don't want to just go in and make cuts. Natalie 19:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Virginia_Tech_massacre#Gun_Control_Debate and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Virginia_Tech_massacre#.22International_media_response.22_section_was_copyvio. Rooot 19:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a stab as what I think is on topic:

• The particulars of how Cho acquired the guns, ammo, clips and whether he did so legally or otherwise.
• The specific Federal and Virginia laws that restrict and/or permit gun ownership, in general and on-campus
• The potential impact of more restrictive/less restrictive laws and how they might have affected the outcome
• non-repetitive arguments made in the media and elsewhere on each of these issues.

Ronnotel 19:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I hesitate to support point #3 as it seems to be too speculative. Rooot 19:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think any of it should be removed. The event is important only because of the impact it has on people - to those intimately involved, it is the murder of people they care for, for those of us a step removed it is the issue of violence in our society - you should not remove the impact the event has from the actual event (consider the article on 9/11 where more than half the article talks about the non-immediate impacts). If the sole reason is the length of the article, there is far more irrelevant information that is included (such as the section on Fox not airing some episode of some TV show, or the individual responses of multiple universities all saying the same thing). Sad mouse 20:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Time lapse of this page

Probably off topic, delete if you wish, but here is a timelapse someone made of the VT massacre page on Youtube -Ravedave 19:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

very cool, thanks. Anyone here want to take credit? Ronnotel 19:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

"Mental illness" as a motive?

He may have been mentally ill, but surely this is not the motive in itself for the crime? -Phoenix 19:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree I already asked about this above but no one responded. I'm going to set it to unknown. Zehly 19:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Columbine survivor was at at VT

Anyone thing that this should be included in this article?

Columbine survivor, Regina Rohde, was a student at Virginia Tech and was on campus at the time of the massacre, making this the second school shooting she has survived[8].--aishel 19:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

i'm not sure if it should be included, it's cool to know, but not really relevent to the article-Threewaysround 20:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)