Jump to content

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eve Carson: Difference between revisions

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Offensive, POV-pushing, irrelevant.
Line 169: Line 169:
** No one, I believe, is arguing that ''every murder victim's bio should be reposited in Wikipedia''. If that's the basis of your argument, then you have zero argument. ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro|talk]]) 08:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC))
** No one, I believe, is arguing that ''every murder victim's bio should be reposited in Wikipedia''. If that's the basis of your argument, then you have zero argument. ([[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro|talk]]) 08:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC))
*'''Comment''' Prompted by a discussion at the Village Pump, where I am trying to forge a consensus of sorts, I read the Holloway article to see how to answer the questions about the differences between the articles and spotted a difference immediately: the Holloway article doesn't have an entire section devoted to who she was, what she did while she was alive or anything, except where it directly informs the event. This is in contrast to the Carson article, which spends the majority of the article talking about the life an memorial of the victim, and not about the event which is supposed to be notable. Consequently, editors favouring deletion are seeing this as a memorial page with little evidence of notability, but the page does not document the murder significantly. Can I take this opportunity to invite discussion at the Village pum, please [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Policy_about_articles_of_murder_victims]? [[User:Fritzpoll|Fritzpoll]] ([[User talk:Fritzpoll|talk]]) 14:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Prompted by a discussion at the Village Pump, where I am trying to forge a consensus of sorts, I read the Holloway article to see how to answer the questions about the differences between the articles and spotted a difference immediately: the Holloway article doesn't have an entire section devoted to who she was, what she did while she was alive or anything, except where it directly informs the event. This is in contrast to the Carson article, which spends the majority of the article talking about the life an memorial of the victim, and not about the event which is supposed to be notable. Consequently, editors favouring deletion are seeing this as a memorial page with little evidence of notability, but the page does not document the murder significantly. Can I take this opportunity to invite discussion at the Village pum, please [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Policy_about_articles_of_murder_victims]? [[User:Fritzpoll|Fritzpoll]] ([[User talk:Fritzpoll|talk]]) 14:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
**Another major difference is that the Holloway event occurred on an international level. High school student on senior trip to Aruba, allegedly abducted by a European. In contrast, Carson and Burk were just random murders at home. [[Special:Contributions/24.124.109.67|24.124.109.67]] ([[User talk:24.124.109.67|talk]]) 16:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
====[[SPA|Single-Purpose Accounts]]====
====[[SPA|Single-Purpose Accounts]]====
These accounts - [[User:Altmin|Altmin]] [[User:Keepkeepkeep|Keepkeepkeep]] [[User:Porpentine|Porpentine]] - appear to be single-purpose accounts (either for just this article or this one and [[Lauren Burk]]) and probably should be ignored by whoever eventually looks at this debate. [[User:Dizzy1976|Dizzy1976]] is also suspect. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 09:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
These accounts - [[User:Altmin|Altmin]] [[User:Keepkeepkeep|Keepkeepkeep]] [[User:Porpentine|Porpentine]] - appear to be single-purpose accounts (either for just this article or this one and [[Lauren Burk]]) and probably should be ignored by whoever eventually looks at this debate. [[User:Dizzy1976|Dizzy1976]] is also suspect. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 09:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:21, 10 March 2008

Eve Carson

AfDs for this article:
Eve_Carson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

WP:MEMORIAL 24.124.109.67 (talk) 10:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, Wikipedia is not a memorial. Prior to her tragic death, the only aspect that stands out about her is that she served as the UNC student body president. Student body presidents are generally not notable as they do not receive significant coverage from reliable, third-party sources. A Google News search shows that Carson hardly received any coverage from these type of sources prior to her death. The majority of the articles in the Google search that mention her are from The Daily Tar Heel, UNC's student-run newspaper. BlueAg09 (Talk) 10:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Regards, cab (talk) 10:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Whilst a tragic death, being the victim of a crime does not automatically make someone notable. Inclusion of this material would be acceptable if the individual had other claims to notability sufficient for inclusion in an encyclopaedia. From what I can see from the sources and discussions on the article talk page, this is not the case. I therefore conclude that the article fails WP:BIO because the depth of coverage in cited sources is insufficient to assert sufficient notability for inclusion. Best wishes - Fritzpoll (talk) 10:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hold off for awhile per WP:IAR. Emotions are probably very raw at this point among anyone who knew her, and the AfD notice might add insult to injury. Tlogmer ( talk / contributions ) 11:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete, non-notable person and being murdered doesn't make her so. WP:NOTNEWS/WP:ONEEVENT/WP:BLP1E. As to whether an AfD would upset someone who knew her -- I find it far more likely this was created by someone who saw the news rather than family/friend as if they're mourning her death, the first stop would probab;y not be Wikipedia. TRAVELLINGCARIMy storyTell me yours 12:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wikinews is the proper venue for breaking news stories. Purely a memorial article at this point. Fails WP:BIO. Also delete per WP:NOTNEWS. If in the future it turn out there is a murder case and trial which is notable, and which leads to societal changes or new laws, then Eve Carson murder could be created. Edison (talk) 14:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect/Change article to 'Death of Eve Carson Everyone is right, the circumstances of this case don't all of a sudden make Carson notable, but her death and the investigation into it's circumstances could certainly warrant an article. This article wouldn't be a memorial as it would have very little to do with her life.Gwynand (talk) 14:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to something along the lines of Eve Carson murder or Death of Eve Carson. Eve Carson does not merit an article; her murder, however, has received significant coverage by reliable third-party sources. The victim is not notable, the event is. Not to break Godwin's law, but a comparable example would be the average Holocaust victim: individually, most are not notable by Wikipedia's standards, but they were involved in an event which was notable. faithless (speak) 17:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now. We have no idea how notable this will be. As for her being famous for just being a victim, that's okay. We have lots of entries for people that are famous mainly for being victims of crimes- See Donna Lass, Natalee Holloway, Shafilea Ahmed, see [[Category:Unsolved murders]] for more. Remember (talk) 17:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now. It can be better re-evaluated with the perspective of time in six months or a year or five years if there's still significant feeling at that time that she's not notable. Wikipedia does not have a deadline, and if the article is deleted now but it's decided in a year or so that she was notable after all, the work that has already been done is lost and has to be re-done. Also, I'm opposed to moving this to Eve Carson murder or Death of Eve Carson. While there doesn't seem to be any uniform policy on Wikipedia, and examples of both can be found (that is, there are articles on people notable solely for being murder victims directly under the person's name, and there are articles on people notable solely for being murder victims under the event), it seems looking at the various subcategories under Category:Murder victims, that it's much more common to have the article under the person's name directly. (Granted, not all of those people are notable solely on account of being murder victims, but many are.) Chuck (talk) 18:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - To both the above comments: if this becomes notable later, then the article can be recreated. The point is, as you imply in your comments, that she is not notable now and we cannot have an article on the basis that it might become encyclopaedic in the future - Fritzpoll (talk) 19:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Where do I imply in my comments that she is non-notable now? Chuck (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • In the line It can be better re-evaluated with the perspective of time in six months or a year or five years if there's still significant feeling at that time that she's not notable - if she becomes non-notable in the future then that would be irrelevant if she were notable now, since, per policy, notability does not expire. Really this latter point was directed at the first comment than yours. - Fritzpoll (talk) 15:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep If the national and international news organizations consider her death to be notable, then I'd say it meets the Wikipedia criteria. - Damicatz (talk) 18:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - She was not notable prior to her death, and her death does not make her notable now. People die everyday and make the news. We're not a record of the world's deaths. Lara❤Love 18:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I strongly disagree with the assertion that a person who is not otherwise notable cannot become notable through the manner of their death. If that were the case, Thich Quang Duc would not be notable, a conclusion which I find patently absurd. (This is not to say I am certain Eve Carson is notable, only that I find "she was unnotable prior to her death" unconvincing as an argument for her non-notability now.) Chuck (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • On further reflection, I may have misjudged LaraLove's comment, as it admits two possible readings. If LaraLove meant "No person who was non-notable in life becomes notable due to their death," then I disagree, as above, but I see now LaraLove's comment might also mean "Eve Carson's death in particular was not sufficient to make her notable," in which case my comment immediately above was not relevant. Chuck (talk) 21:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm saying she was not notable before her death and her death does not make her notable now. People makes the news with their deaths every day. People who would otherwise not be in the news. That alone does not establish encyclopedic notability. For that reason, this article should be deleted. Lara❤Love 19:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep Carson was the student body president at a major university and she died under suspicious circumstances. Many people will read the news article about her death and want to know more about her. Wikipedia is the first place that many people turn to in order to find out such information. Because of this there is no reason to delete this article. Wikipedia is the people's encyclopedia, and if the people are interested in reading biographical information about a person in the news then they should be able to. There is no need to delete it at this time. If in the future the story dies down (e.g., if it turns out to just be a random shooting and doesn't evolve into the next Stacy Peterson or Natalee Halloway case), that would be the time to reconsider its inclusion in wikipedia. - BenjamintChip (talk) 19:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As has been mentioned by others above, Wikinews is this purpose. Wikipedia is not intended to document current events that are unlikely to be notable in the future. If it is notable in the future, then the article can be created in the future. But it is not notable now, so the argument is that should not be included - Fritzpoll (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then they would have to start from scratch. Right now, the info is here. It's better to decide to delete later, when the news impact has died, and have everyone say, "Well, yeh, OK", than to be pushing this during the "heat of the moment." Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would guess a lot more people know what wikipedia is than know what wikinews is. This business of trying to manage the thinking of the internet reader is patronizing and offensive. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from accusing me of being patronising and offensive. I am making an argument in a deletion debate based on my interpretation of the policies of Wikipedia, which have broad community consensus. I tend to find that people actually use search engines to find people, but end up at Wikipedia if it is high in the search rankings - but such an argument is irrelevant in the context of a deletion debate. Regards - Fritzpoll (talk) 15:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not claim that you are personally patronizing and offensive. I claim that your words are. You are trying to dictate how the public should use wikipedia. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all. I am trying to suggest that the policies of Wikipedia preclude this article's inclusion at this time. See WP:NOT#NEWS for the policy I refer to. - Fritzpoll (talk) 15:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Wikinews is this purpose. Wikipedia is not intended..." are words that attempt to dictate how the public should use wikipedia. And again I ask, what policy makes Natalie Holloway more notable than Eve Carson? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As I have explained repeatedly in response to your comments, this is to do with Wikipedia's policies, and your interpretation of what I mean is therefore incorrect. As to your second point, this too has been answered on this page, and I ask that you take any further comments regarding this topic to my talk page. For reasons of space, I will not clog up this AfD by responding to your comments on either of these matters on this page - Fritzpoll (talk) 18:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The public perception of wikipedia as a (hopefully) reliable source of information is more important than boxing wikipedia's content in by arbitrary rules. If someone comes to wikipedia to find information about this story, then they should be able to find it, some way or another. And they shouldn't have to somehow know that they should be looking at wikinews. If they go to wikipedia, then wikipedia should, at least, give them the link to the wikinews article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have responded to this comment on my talk page - Fritzpoll (talk) 19:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If that is the case, we can create an interwikimedia link to the WikiNews article just like this. BlueAg09 (Talk) 21:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If I come to wikipedia looking for info, and I enter the name, and it takes me someplace that gives me the information, that would seem to be the important thing. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 21:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now at least, there have been lots of university shootings as of late that I think are important to inform people about, and its possible that this falls under the same umbrella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smooth0707 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comment addressing objections several people have raised (I already recommended "Keep" above): In response to those citing WP:NOT#NEWS, it says "Routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism are not sufficient basis for an article." While murders are regrettably far more routine than they should be, they are still significantly less routine than "announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism," so I do not see that as an argument against an article such as this one. In response to those citing WP:ONEEVENT, it says, "Where a person is mentioned by name in a Wikipedia article about a larger subject, but remains of essentially low profile themselves, we should generally avoid having an article on them." The purpose of this, as I read it, is to prevent someone noting that, for example, a friend or teacher of Eve's was quoted in a news article about her, and creating an article about that friend or teacher, but Eve herself is hardly "low profile" in relation to this event. After reviewing WP:NOT#NEWS, WP:ONEEVENT, and WP:BLP1E, I withdraw my objection to moving this article to Eve Carson murder and redirecting Eve Carson there. Although this does not appear to be the most common practice on Wikipedia with respect to people notable solely on account of being murder victims, it does appear more in line with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Chuck (talk) 22:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I don't quite understand this zeal to eradicate knowledge from the encyclopedia, particularly when this is exactly the sort of information I come to Wikipedia for, not simply when it is a current event, but in the years after it occurs, to see what information has been uncovered over time. Her death is a strikingly important event for the UNC community, for the state of North Carolina, and for the nation, and I have to disagree that the nature of one's death has nothing to do with notability. I also have to argue that maybe the boundaries of taste and human kindness should lead us to postpone these sorts of discussions about victims of murder until some time has passed (a delay which cannot, I think, harm the integrity of such a capacious and idealistic project as Wikipedia); there is something really unseemly about having such extensive (and dismissive in tone) public conversations about Carson's notability at this moment. Would we say make this sorts of assessments in person in front of her family and friends right now? I don't think so, but internet discussions are no less public. This is an important discussion, but perhaps it is best postponed so that no one else will have the shocking experience of going to the page and finding her (by all media accounts a very accomplished person) called "non-notable" at this particularly sensitive time. Porpentine (talk) 13:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Or perhaps we could save the family further distress by not having these articles appear with such haste after the death. Current news belongs in Wikinews, not Wikipedia. WWGB (talk) 14:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A redirect to wikinews would cover the bases. But the above argument has nothing to do with policy, and I'm sure CNN is much more likely to cause the family stress than wikipedia would. Also, "insufficient notability in her life"? She accomplished more than Natalie Holloway did. Natalie Holloway is less "notable in her life" than Eve Carson is. Yet she has her own article, driven strictly by media coverage. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure it is as possible as you imply to separate policy and the ethics of human consideration. Certainly journalists and scholars consult this ethics of appropriateness constantly when they consider their work and the way they talk about it. Also, I am sure that all kinds of media coverage (news and scholarship) is distressing to the family, as is the very fact of the event, but it seems we can avoid a great deal of offense (which I would define differently from distress) not just to the family but to a much wider community by postponing a discussion which may involve repeated assertions of how non-notable this person was. Later I would love to participate in a debate about whether notability must be earned in life (it seems to me that death is one of life's events, and can affect notability quite profoundly), but I am reluctant to go any further than that at this sensitive time.Porpentine (talk) 14:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. This haughty, shameful discussion of whether she's "notable" or not, i.e. whether a bunch of anonymous editors (me included) think she's "worthy" of inclusion - in a website that considers articles about cartoon characters to be "encyclopedic" - is about 100 times more offensive (and 100 times more likely to cause "distress" to the family) than the mere statement of facts in the article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikinews does not, however, serve the same encyclopedic function of tracing the development and accumulation of information regarding the case to present an authoritative set of information about it over time. This is why I came to wikipedia for information on this very subject. We have to ask ourselves what is to be gained for Wikipedia by deleting an article like this? I can only think that it will mean that information will not be there in the future for those, like me, who are bound to search for it. In response to the comment that it would save the family further distress not to have encyclopedia articles appear so quickly, I can't say I understand that logic, particularly paired with the assertion that the same information should appear in Wikinews. My argument is that the information about the case, which is of prominent importance on the national stage right now, and will be of importance on the level of state and university for some time to come, should be provided dispassionately (as befits a mutable and communal encyclopedia), but that the discussion of this widely mourned figure's non-notability can't help but cause offense at this time. It shocked me, and I have no personal connection to the victim beyond a shared alma mater. One doesn't have to be a family member to find this a distasteful debate. In other words, I disagree with this move for deletion on both the levels of policy and taste. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Porpentine (talk • contribs) 14:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who is completely emotionally detached from this, I just have to say that Wikipedia has a series of policies about what does and does not warrant an article in an encyclopaedia. Your only edits to Wikipedia have been to this page, so you may not be aware of these, but one such policy is WP:NOT#NEWS, which seems to cover this perfectly. In order to maintain a neutral point of view, editors have to try to remain dispassionate about the subjects of articles - and this includes considering those that are nominated for deletion. If it is important to the university as you say, then at some stage place a subsection in the University's article with appropriate information. It may seem unfortunate that our reference to policy in this regard is "non-notable", but in the context of many of the comments above, I don't believe it is offensive. - Fritzpoll (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tell me the policy that explains why Natalie Holloway is more notable than Eve Carson. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This deletion debate is about the article in questions. The relevant guideline to this point is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS - namely, that the existence of other, similar material on Wikipedia is not a good argument for retention. I have no opinion on the other article as I have yet to read it, and have no intention of doing so any time soon. It may, however, meet the deletion criteria, but has yet to be nominated. Who knows? The argument here has to be about the article Eve Carson, and on the basis of the article's own merits, I believe it should be deleted. - Fritzpoll (talk) 16:06, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Near as I can tell, it was never even brought up. Yet it was a totally news-driven story. There is nothing about Natalie Holloway herself that would seem to fit the "notability" criterion. But no one on this page is in any position to know whether the Eve Carson story is ultimately "notable" or not. I don't understand this rush to delete stuff. Well, I think I do understand it, but let's not get into that just now. But it's unfair to delete it now and 6 months later have to rebuild it from scratch. Why not wait 6 months and then decide? Or are you afraid that the energy for deletion will have been lost by then? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The answer to my question, by the way, is that the Natalie Holloway story is notable because of the way it was covered, not because of Natalie Holloway herself. But the article isn't called "News coverage of the Natalie Holloway disappearance". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a look at the history, and it doesn't appear that an AfD was brought up for the article you keep bringing up. That says nothing either for or against whether this article should be included, as I state in my comments above. If we don't know if the subject is notable now, it's because there is no evidence that she is, in which case she is non-notable per policy and the article should be deleted. There is nothing wrong with recreating the article at a later time if notability is established - the "rush to delete" as you put it is to prevent every little event and insignificant piece of information going into the encyclopaedia. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I really don't have a great personal desire to see the deleted - my participation in other AfDs indicates that I support retention sometimes as well as deletion, so I am uncertain what your latter comments about being "afraid" refer to. Please take this discussion to my talk page - Fritzpoll (talk) 16:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A redirect to wikinews is unacceptable on the basis that the two sites operate differently. It will not be an encyclopedic article and such direction does not work. A link to a Wikinews article within the Eve Carson article is doable, though. Guroadrunner (talk) 08:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This really baffles me. Every single time that someone dies, and it makes big headlines / national news (like this case), Wikipedia has the same exact AFD debate as above. We could probably just cut-and-paste, word-for-word. Why do we keep re-inventing the same wheel, over and over again? Can't "we" (Wikipedia) just come up with some standard on this issue ... so we don't have to reinvent the wheel every single blessed time that a death / murder news story makes national headlines? The debate always comes down to "yes, she's notable" ... "oh, no, she's not" ... "oh, yes, she is" ... "oh, no, she's not" ... like a bunch of kindergarteners fighting. Everyone here has too much free time on their hands --- and are too itchy to demonstrate their "authority" and perceived empowerment (i.e., lacking elsewhere in their lives) --- if we need to go over this very same issue ad nauseam each and every time. Who (somewhere at Wikipedia) can just come up with a policy -- for once and for all, through consensus -- about how to handle these new-breaking stories of death / murder? Or, alternatively ... I am sure that this very same (exact) debate occurred for Natalee Holloway, Laci Peterson, Jessie Davis / Bobby Lee Cutts, etc., etc., etc. Why are we constantly re-inventing the wheel? For some reason or another (good, bad, or indifferent) ... the Holloway, Peterson, and Davis articles are still in existence (i.e., survived deletion). This case presents the exact same arguments, nothing novel. So, ultimately, what is at issue here? Or -- rather -- hasn't this "issue" already been decided umpteen times over, ad nauseam? Certainly, no one in the USA (or, internationally, for that matter) ever heard the names of Holloway, Peterson, Davis before they died. Yet, they (and a myriad of others) survived AFD's. Yes, you can be non-notable before your death ... and notable after (indeed, because of) your death. So, what's the big deal? Is this a new concept? I feel like going over to the AFD debates for Holloway, Peterson, and Davis ... cutting and pasting them here --- since it is all the same exact issue --- and concluding with "no consensus to delete". As happens every time. Why do you (we) Wikipedia folk insist on spinning your collective wheels? Some famous person (who?) defined insanity as doing the same thing over repeatedly and expecting a different result. Why can't we accept past debates on similar issues (i.e., Holloway, Peterson, Davis, etc.) and just be done with it? Or, from this issue, just get it over and done with in a collectively-agreed upon policy? Unreal behavior. Really baffles me. People just like to hear themselves talk, and argue, even though the very same issue has been already decided 1,000 times in the past. And I am sure there is no unique, novel distinction that this case brings to the table that all of the others didn't. You wonder why Wikipedia sometimes resembles kindergarten recess time, with kids fighting over some stupid toy and -- once they get it -- they don't even want to play with the toy. They really just want their own way. They just argue for the sake of arguing -- and want the toy only because someone else wants it. Unreal behavior. Any feedback? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Comment - Of the articles you quote, only one has ever been nominated for deletion (resulting in "no consensus"), one doesn't have an article, and one redirects to "Disappearance and murder of...". I agree that it would be good to have some kind of fixed consensus, and have started a discussion at the Village Pump based on your proposal, but for now, we can only judge the current article based on its own merits, not on the availablility of other information on Wikipedai - Fritzpoll (talk) 11:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Based on its own merits"... Well, it seems to be written factually and even-handedly and is well-sourced - more than I can say for a lot of the stuff that appears here. Meanwhile, I wonder how many of this panel of nose-in-the-air "notability" judges were college class presidents and whose own deaths would be national news? I'm guessing not many. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Follow Up: Furthermore, if Eve Carson indeed is not notable ... how would it possibly be that everyone here on this page (and in the USA, for that matter) knows her name? Let's use some common sense. We all know Eve Carson's name ... we all know Eve Carson's story ... hence, notable. If I dug up some random murder story from the Nome Alaska Daily News that says "Alfred Q. Rickinstock was murdered yesterday" ... no one has ever heard of Alfred Q. Rickinstock's name ... no one has ever heard of Alfred Q. Rickinstock's story ... hence, not notable. Come on, people ... is this rocket science? Is this brain surgery? Let's get a dosage of common sense somewhere along the line. And, really, let's be clear ... no, you are not the editor-in-chief of Brittanica ... you are just a regular Joe Schmo sitting at home in your pajamas, editing Wikipedia. That's all. That's neither good, bad, or indifferent --- but it is what it is. Come on, already. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Unforetunately, a year from now or when B. Spears does something stupid, the public will move on and say "Eve who?""--70.188.129.189 (talk) 22:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hinted at it earlier, and your questions demand an answer, so here it is: There are certain editors who have made it their mission to watch for this kind of article and to push for deleting it. That's why they are called "deletionists". They want to keep wikipedia in a box. Their first priority should be to serve the public, but no, their first priority is to destroy anything that doesn't fit into the box. That's what this is about. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are equally a number of editors who see it as their duty to rush into print every time some pretty young thing with a toothy smile gets bumped off. It's like a badge to be the first to post an article. Perhaps if they showed more restraint, and waited a decent period of time to see how the issue develops, then the other side wouldn't see the need to restore some balance. It's very convenient to "blame the deletionists" for causing all this trouble, but the ambulance chasers are just as much to blame for these ongoing conflicts. WWGB (talk) 10:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Baseball Bugs. But -- yes -- I know the underlying politics. But, it's not answering my question of: why can't this "issue" be decided for once and for all ... via policy, consensus, whatever. Why the need to reinvent the wheel each time? (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Comment. Whilst Joseph A. Spadaro raised some valid points here, he should have done it in a different manner. Although he did not name individual editors, the diatribe (which actually had some good points in it, I think) that he just posted is bordering on a personal attack, which is definitely not allowed on Wikipedia.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 21:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to Above Comment: To "his space research" ... thanks ... yes, of course, there are indeed many valid points. However, how in any way is this a personal attack? And, by extension, how is this in any way disallowed? Against whom (i.e., which "person") is this alleged "personal" attack? Perhaps, I am attacking a silly and inane Wikipedia process (if you can even call it that) ... as opposed to some fictitious Wikipedia person ... no? Your post that my post is a personal attack should be retracted. Please re-read my post. I am clearly attacking an ineffective and inefficient Wikipedia process that serves none of us well. You also state that I should have done it in a different manner? In which manner would that be? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Delete. As others have said, this debate comes up whenever some random person dies in the news. And every time their article gets deleted -- this case is no different. Wikipedia is not a news website. 24.126.197.197 (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not true. The Natalie Holloway article is still there. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The poster above states, quote: And every time their article gets deleted. Uhhhhhhhhh ... Natalee Holloway ... Laci Peterson ... Jessie Davis ... do you want 1,000 more examples? When did Holloway, Peterson, Davis, and the other 1000 get deleted? (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Excellent point. Obviously, he's wrong about it getting deleted. This is entirely a function of the amount of media coverage, despite protests that, for some reason, "it shouldn't be." And what Mr. Spadaro said earlier is also true - obviously, the notability guidelines are either flawed or are being applied only whimsically. The problem is with the guidelines. Presumably, that needs to be addressed, i.e. challenged on the guidelines page. Meanwhile, if Holloway, Peterson, et al, can stay, so can this one. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 22:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And this is also deju vu. A couple of weeks ago, the deletionists were arguing against an article about the NIU shooter. They lost that one, too. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There has been immense media coverage of this case. It is not Wikipedia who decides which articles to keep, the media has already made this case far more important than other murders. EgraS (talk) 22:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete After reading refs from John below Keep Meets notability. --Kukini háblame aquí 22:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete- per noteability and memorial. --70.188.129.189 (talk) 22:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:ONEEVENT "If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted", WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:MEMORIAL. JohnCD (talk) 22:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to Baseball Bugs We get it with the Natalie Holloway reference. Repeating the same WP:ALLORNOTHING argument over and over and over and over doesn't make it any more valid. Please use a new approach with unique arguments or stop filling this AfD with this. 24.124.109.67 (talk) 23:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, you don't get it. You have yet to answer the question: Why are you not pushing for delete of those other articles? What's special about this one that you're so anxious to delete it? Why are you applying the guidelines arbitrarily and capriciously, instead of uniformly? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment to Comment to Baseball Bugs: Regardless of how many times he has (or hasn't) said it, Baseball Bugs is correct. Murder victims like these either are or are not notable ... let's just pick one, for once and for all. Wikipedia does not exist in a vacuum. It is a collection of many articles. That is, Holloway and Carson (and others). There does need to be some internal consistency - or enforcement - of a "policy" ... otherwise, why have (and indeed, what is) a "policy"? The argument that people keep throwing out (Other Stuff Exists) is nothing more than a red herring. Perhaps "other stuff exists" because it has been deemed non-deletion worthy. In which case, it is indeed relevant. Just because "other stuff exists" does NOT mean (as some would like us to believe) that it only exists because it has not yet been nominated for deletion (assuming that it would be deleted if a nomination had occurred). In fact, quite the opposite. Many times "other stuff exists" because, after a deletion debate, it was found that it should indeed exist. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
        • This is oversimplifying the issue. Each article contains its own set of unique facts and should be judged separately. Oversimplifying all dead person biographies by assuming that they all contain the same information and categorically declaring them as either notable or non-notable based on these limited facts is inappropriate. 24.124.109.67 (talk) 00:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • The only "unique fact" about those other cases is overwhelming media coverage that would make wikipedia look stupid if we didn't have an article about it. Every argument that's been used against the Eve Carson article can also be leveled against the other cases. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • To User 24.124.109.67 ... you are not wrong. Clearly, every case is unique and presents its own set of facts, etc. That's stating the obvious. So -- as Baseball Bugs indicates -- what is the distinction (if any) between all of these rather similar articles? If they are all indeed similar, they should be treated similarly (either all deleted or all kept). As, presumably, we are applying the same standards / policies to all. As you say, different facts may call for different conclusions. OK, that's fair enough. So, as Baseball Bugs asks, what is the distinction here ... what is the set of unique facts about the Eve Carson case that would call for deletion when the other (arguably similar) articles do not? In essence, all of these articles boil down to "she wasn't notable prior to death and her death ( does? or does not? ) make her notable now". So, if the Eve Carson case has special facts, please illuminate. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
  • Keep: Most everything has been said and discussed. This article is necessary. The ultimate truth is that WikiNews and Wikipedia, despite any efforts by either to make them individual entities, must at some gray area overlap. RShnike (talk) 01:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep - Meets notibilty Scanlan (talk) 00:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - She is notable and the article deserves to be in there. --Reezy (talk) 01:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: We can probably all agree that no one ever heard of this woman prior to her death. But so what? Who ever heard of Sirhan Sirhan before he killed Kennedy? Whoever heard of Charles Manson before he killed Sharon Tate? Whoever heard of Mark David Chapman before he killed John Lennon? Whoever heard of Joran van-der-whatever-Sloot before he (in my opinion) killed Natalee Holloway? For that matter, whoever heard of Marion Cotillard before she won the Academy Award? At one moment, people are non-notable ... and perhaps in an instant, they (or their story) become notable. And, clearly and obviously, sometimes that one instant is a death/killing/murder/etc. ... whether criminal or victim. What vacuum-sealed planet are some of these posters living on? (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Chapman and Sirhan became famous because they killed very famous people, and the reasons they did so, are also of more than family interest. In this young lady's case, no one outside her immediate family and colleagues would have counted her notable. If I was murdered in identical circumstances, I wouldn't want to be up on Wikipedia either. For a start, it's an invasion of privacy without any justification on the grounds of general and widespread interest. Hate to break it to you, but this is not global news.Be best (talk) 07:22, 9 March 2008 (UTC)\[reply]
Uhhhh ... yeah, I think I'm well aware of who Chapman and Sirhan murdered. My point was that some people become notable after only one event and sometimes (oftentimes) that event is their death/murder. Furthermore, when did "global" become the barometer for Wikipedia notability? (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 08:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Duke and NC State are playing a memorial game for her. I'd imagine her colleagues number quite a few. I think we should set a precedent by deleting Holloway or McCann before we deloete this. I am very much opposed the Missing pretty girl syndrome or something like that but hey, its a national story. Editorofthewiki 10:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Non notable person, personal tragedy, nothing that notable about the crime either. Sad, but so are almost all murders.Be best (talk) 07:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a national news story. Let's see if it turns out like Holloway. Give this some time to settle thinggs out and then you can nominate it again. Editorofthewiki 10:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. It's a tragedy, no doubt, but no page existed prior to her death and once the commotion settles there will almost certainly be no traffic to this page. The precedent has already been set to NOT setup individual pages for the vistims of other school shootings like Columbine High School massacre (Rachel Scott is a notable exception, but there's a fair bit extenuating with various causes in her name that merits a Wiki entry for here). If something similar comes from Ms. Carson's death, then it may merit a page ... but for now I vote for deletion or a possible merge with the UNC page. Mike Helms (talk) 14:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There is a concurrent debate going on right now that has very similar facts as to the one here. 24.124.125.33 (talk) 15:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge with Lauren Burk. This article is important as one of a series of similar murders during a time frame. If you want to combine articles, that's ok but a little confusing....People say notability. Well, that's the notability, similar crimes over a similar time. Otherwise, an isolated killing isn't always noteworthy, I agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepkeepkeep (talk • contribs) 16:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • — Keepkeepkeep (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete newsworthy is not noteworthy. Resolute 16:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Wikinews:Eve Carson. Notability is not temporary, BLP1E, etc. Sbowers3 (talk) 18:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Nothing notable as of yet. If some big conspiracy develops that resulted in her murder then a deletion review can be requested. Otherwise this reads like an obituary.Renee (talk) 19:23, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Per WP:BIO1E. Not everyone in the news is Wikipedia notable. Reywas92Talk 19:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Meets notability guidelines. -- No Guru (talk) 20:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Notable. SuMadre (talk) 20:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Regarding the WP:ONEEVENT argument: first, I believe this supports my argument that the article should be moved to Eve Carson murder or something similar; the person is not notable, but the event unquestionably is, having received extensive national (international?) coverage. As the policy states, Cover the event, not the person. Second, I believe this is a fundamentally flawed policy; Leon Czolgosz, Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, Mark David Chapman, Thich Quang Duc, the list goes on and on. Most murders aren't notable; then again, very few murders receive the amount of media attention as this one. Non-notable person, but notable event. faithless (speak) 20:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Doesn't make sense to delete this and then keep others listed under the Wiki Category:Murdered students. If you delete this, you might as well delete the others also. Msw1002 (talk) 21:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, Possibly Rename as Murder of Eve Carson Though Eve Carson is not herself not necessarily notable outside her murder, she is one of many people whose murders have made them notable.Brian Waterman, MS, CDP (talk) 21:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep. Notable even before her death, as per her stature as president of a student body of approximately 30,000 students and as evidenced in numerous articles about her in notable secondary sources (The Daily Tar Heel) prior to her death. (To those who would argue that the DTH is a non-notable source, I would respond that it is the newspaper of record in a community with more citizens than many of America's medium-sized cities. It has a circulation much larger than many local newspapers serving such cities. It has a strong reputation for, and has won awards for, its unbiased and impartial coverage of events relevant to that community. It meets every criterion for a Reliable Source with flying colors.) The fact that nobody bothered to make an article about her presidency prior to her death reflects only that Wikipedia was not the most efficient source for such information at that time (the DTH website was more than adequate). Now that she is notable on a national scale (her national notability does extend from her death, yes), people across the country who have never heard of the Daily Tar Heel predictably turn to a national source of information such as Wikipedia and expect to find information about her there, including links to sources like the DTH where they can learn more about her life. Others have pointed out some of the more disturbing dimensions of this debate (zeal to diminish the "notability" of a person so soon after that person's death, in violation of a widely accepted social norm not to speak ill of the recently dead; the fact that this exact same debate happens after any previously-non-national public figure dies; the fact that as a reflection of (or in spite of) all Wikipedia policies, numerous biographies exist on Wikipedia for persons whose notability stems only from their death and whose lifetime accomplishments are much less than those of Ms. Carson; the fact that despite Other Stuff Exists (which, in case some of us need reminding, is not Wikipedia Policy in favor of inconsistent editorial decisions but instead an essay discussing the challenges of maintaining consistency), consistency IS IMPORTANT in editorial decisions and it would be a mistake to break with Wikipedia precedent in this praticular instance. As a final observation, I would point out that if the events that had caused Eve Carson to reach national notability had been of another kind (say, e.g., a corruption or sex scandal, I predict that all the editors arguing here for non-notability on the basis of publication in the Daily Tar Heel would instead be arguing that Eve Carson was a public figure for the purposes of the First Amendment, not entitled to legal protection from defamation, citing exactly the same articles in the DTH.Yls07 (talk) 00:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- agree with various statements about major incident at large university; ALSO: (1) we have many other school shootings on here -- i.e. Virginia Tech -- I understand that this is only one person, but what do we OBJECTIVELY decide is the tipping point for deserving an article? Three victims? Five? Eight? How can we do this objectively? Until that question is answered, I think it would be too hasty to delete this article. (2) this article belongs here in the name of completeness of coverage of two topics: school shootings (of which there has been a scary string in the last decade), and mixed-race killings (black guy killed a white girl). More knowledge is always better than less knowledge, especially in an encyclopedia. Mr. P. S. Phillips (talk) 02:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- Lets everyone bear in mind that the inclusion or deletion of this article isn't based on our own personal feelings on how the for-profit news media determines what constitutes newsworthy coverage. It seems this discussion is becoming an indictment of that. I think we all agree that this is yet another example of "news product" ala Natalee Holloway, as opposed to something legitimately worthy of our collective extended attentions, however, as long as the Wikipedia model predicates "validity" on the number of google hits or the number of reliable sources which can be trotted out in support, we would have a hard time arguing a lack of newsworthiness given that the coverage has been very extensive thusfar. Like anything else, interest in this will eventually die out, but that isn't a be-all threshold. I haven't seen fresh coverage of Jon Benet Ransey or the Hindenberg recently, however, they were both events in a place and time that received a great deal of coverage and because of it, whether they deserved it or not, they represent something "newsworthy," as would this murder. --LoverOfArt (talk) 02:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Nicolasdz (talk) 03:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep --Altmin (talk) 07:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a repository for the biography of every murder victim who happens to make the news. LaszloWalrus (talk) 07:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Prompted by a discussion at the Village Pump, where I am trying to forge a consensus of sorts, I read the Holloway article to see how to answer the questions about the differences between the articles and spotted a difference immediately: the Holloway article doesn't have an entire section devoted to who she was, what she did while she was alive or anything, except where it directly informs the event. This is in contrast to the Carson article, which spends the majority of the article talking about the life an memorial of the victim, and not about the event which is supposed to be notable. Consequently, editors favouring deletion are seeing this as a memorial page with little evidence of notability, but the page does not document the murder significantly. Can I take this opportunity to invite discussion at the Village pum, please [3]? Fritzpoll (talk) 14:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Another major difference is that the Holloway event occurred on an international level. High school student on senior trip to Aruba, allegedly abducted by a European. In contrast, Carson and Burk were just random murders at home. 24.124.109.67 (talk) 16:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Single-Purpose Accounts

These accounts - Altmin Keepkeepkeep Porpentine - appear to be single-purpose accounts (either for just this article or this one and Lauren Burk) and probably should be ignored by whoever eventually looks at this debate. Dizzy1976 is also suspect. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Eve_Carson&oldid=197256761"