Talk:Wikipedia

Semi-Protect talk page?

I've noticed that there has been many acts of vandalism upon this page, and most likely, this post will be vandalised sometime in the future. Is it possible to semi-protect this page, as this seems to be causing a bit of trouble. For example, as I was scanning the history of the page, I realized that reverting the article to its non-vandalised state would delete new editions to this article, forcing one to manually sort out vandalism. Anyways, I'm sure a non-registered person who has a great suggestion would be able to wait a few days of registering. Rfts (talk) 04:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC) NO VANDALISM!

Article in different languages

How does Wikipedia know for sure that two articles are about the same topic in different languages?--24.166.56.195 (talk) 22:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

In general, interlanguage links are added by people who can read both languages. For some topics, that's not even necessary: if I look at a Japanese biology article and see the Latin genus and species name is the same as in an English article, I can safely assume the two articles are about the same critter. Sometimes bots add the links too, on the principle that if A = B and B = C, then A = C. —Angr 21:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Random ""?

Before I assume that this is the very vandalism it seems to be referring to (i.e. "random letters"), will someone tell me if there is such thing as a pletter? I will remove it soon. Cuindless (talk) 20:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess you are right ;) -- lucasbfr ^talk 16:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

SUGGESTION (UNRELATED)

Have the web server automatically change the following static text in this article every 5 minutes:
"As of December 2007, Wikipedia had approximately 9 ¼ million articles in 253 languages"
"As of <=TODAY()>, Wikipedia haS approximately <=TOTALNUMBEROFARTICLES()> articles in 253 languages...."
What do you think about this? Please comment to me on my Talk: page and thanks kindly.
--Vid2vid (talk) 21:06, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure using the parser's magic words is a very good idea, it might have some unintended consequences for the mirrors for example (say I import this article on my personal wiki, it would output "15 articles"). -- lucasbfr ^talk 16:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

world record!

Wikipedia (IPA: /ˌwɪkɨˈpiːdiə/, /ˌwiːkiˈpiːdiə/, /ˌwɪkiˈpiːdiə/ or /ˌwiːkiˈpeɪdiə/) (Audio (U.S.) (help·info)) is a free,[4] multilingual, open content encyclopedia project operated by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation. Its name is a portmanteau of the words wiki (a type of collaborative website) and encyclopedia. Launched in 2001 by Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger, it is the largest, fastest growing and most popular general reference work currently available on the Internet.[5][6]

As of December 2007, Wikipedia had approximately 9 ¼ million articles in 253 languages, comprising a combined total of over 1.74 billion words for all Wikipedias. The English Wikipedia edition passed the 2,000,000 article mark on September 9, 2007, and as of January 30, 2008 it had over 2,200,000 articles consisting of over 957,000,000 words.[2] Wikipedia's articles have been written collaboratively by volunteers around the world, and the vast majority of its articles can be edited by anyone with access to the Internet. Having steadily risen in popularity since its inception,[1] it currently ranks among the top ten most-visited websites worldwide.[7]

Critics have questioned Wikipedia's reliability and accuracy, citing its open nature.[8] The criticism is centered on its susceptibility to vandalism, such as the insertion of profanities or random letters into articles, and the addition of spurious or unverified information;[9] uneven quality, systemic bias and inconsistencies;[10] and for favoring consensus over credentials in its editorial process.[11] Scholarly work suggests that vandalism is generally short-lived.[12][13]

In addition to being an encyclopedic reference, Wikipedia has received major media attention as an online source of breaking news as it is constantly updated.[14][15] When Time Magazine recognized "You" as their Person of the Year 2006, praising the accelerating success of on-line collaboration and interaction by millions of users around the world, Wikipedia was the first particular "Web 2.0" service mentioned, followed by YouTube and MySpace.[16 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.1.27 (talk) 19:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Wikipedia is listed in the 2008 Guiness Book of World Records as the world's largest encyclopedia. Should this record be mentioned one of the Wikipedia-related articles? Can the book be used as the reference or is the record too obvious? Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 23:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Is the Guinness Book of World Records even a reliable source? I didn't think so. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 23:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Well, even if GWR isn't reliable, wouldn't Wikipedia's record as the largest encyclopedia already be quite obvious? Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 00:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Nevermind, I guess I forgot to look at the article before I posted this comment. When I checked, It was already there. It says we beat even the one that remained the largest encyclopedia for 600 years, great work everybody! Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 22:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

How much bookshelf space would a printed version of Wikipedia take up? I calculated it at 72 miles (figuring all the books in one shelf). Here's how I did it:

As of November 30, 2007, this page reported Wikipedia contained 916,000,000 words. I figured only 5 characters per word (but actually believe it could be higher). A standard 8.5" x 11" page contains 2,000 characters per side, or 4,000 characters for each sheet of paper, resulting in 1,145,000 sheets of paper. I measured and found 1,000 pages of 20# paper takes up at least 4 inches, or 4,580,000 inches. There are 63,360 inches in a mile. That's 72.285 miles. It would actually be longer since I didn't figure width of each book's front and back covers.

I am open to other assumptions (the number of characters including spaces per word, for example).

And all accessible via a computer and the Web or in the palm of your hand by using the new Kindle electronic book. Ed 16:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

1,145,000 sheets of paper. Each book is 1,000 pages, so divide the sheets by 1,000. That makes 1,145 books four inches at the spine. Four times 1,145 is 4,580. 4,580 inches / 63,360 = ~0.0722 miles, or 381.216 feet (116 m). --Henry W. Schmitt 21:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Rather than going first up to miles and then back down to feet, 4580 inches / 12 = 381.666667 ft (381'8", or 116.33 m). Certainly more shelf space than I have in my study! However, if Wikipedia were to be published as a series of books, it probably would be on much thinner paper than that, as most big encyclopedias and bibles are. 1000 sheets of paper like the kind my King James Bible is printed on is only about 2 inches thick; 1,145,000 sheets would then be 3000 inches (200'10"; 58.17 m) thick. Add in another eighth of an inch for covers on each 2000-page (1000-sheet) volume, though, and that adds another 143 inches (11'11"; 3.63 m). So in total, we're looking at over 200 ft of encyclopedia. Not 72 miles yet, but still impressive. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 08:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Size of Wikipedia might interest you. -- Taku 09:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

And especially Wikipedia:Size in volumes, which I had never seen before. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 09:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

"689.1 volumes of the Encyclopædia Britannica." Good god. -- Taku 09:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

But that 200 feet contains a lot of poor quality stuff. I prefer having an editorial filter. Life is too short... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.126.219 (talk) 02:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I'd like to see how long the featured articles are. Real encyclopedia don't have articles that are not at least the quality of Wikipedia's featured ones. Except real encyclopedias don't feature Pokemon and Reese's Pieces. I suppose bad articles are better than no articles, but Wikipedia is not going to trump books anytime soon. --Henry W. Schmitt 07:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The Free Encyclopedia

i am thinking about how "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" would be translated into Mongolian in the Mongolian Wikipedia. What is the exact meaning of "the free"? Personally, I think it is free, because no one have to pay for what they read. Or is it free, because everyone can access freely? Please help me to determine the right meaning. Bilguun.alt 05:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It's "free as in free speech", not "free as in free beer". Please read gratis vs. libre for more about this important distinction. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 19:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Why do both not apply? I see it as a play on words. the_undertow ^talk 19:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Both don't apply because not all forms of Wikipedia will necessarily be free as in free beer. The much discussed CD-ROM version, if it ever actually appears, will almost certainly be sold for a price. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 19:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That is purely speculative. In addition, that would imply that the content on the CD-ROM could not be found on the website. As far as users are concerned, Wikipedia is free to edit and free to use: speech and beer. the_undertow ^talk 19:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it isn't. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 20:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to add Secret mailing list scandal to controversies section

It has been revealed that the editors of Wikipedia use a secret mailing list to ensure that the content on Wikipedia remains inline with their liking. Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/04/wikipedia_secret_mailing/

(ps: Would love to see the discussion happening on the secret mailing list about this proposal :) )

TwakTwik 17:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

If you have read about this then you will know that even mentioning this could get you banned, your comment removed (even from the history) and a speech about how you were an "insider" tring to undo Wikipedia from the inside and that you comment was trolling and that all of your comments ever written were.

(ps: who will when Wikipedia's "inner circle" or Wikipedia as a community. At this point it will NEVER be both.) --71.170.1.101 (talk) 23:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure, there are few bad apples among Wikipedia senior editors, but its not all bad. We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Unless new editors step up their game and start exercising the openness aspect of Wikipedia, some of the old farts with interests will continue to run their secret mailing lists. So, my advice to you is to take an active interest and press for fair and balanced articles. TwakTwik (talk) 05:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, this affair looks more and more to me as a giant storm in a teacup... If we added every article The Register writes about every company/organization, some articles would be hundreds of pages long. See first if anyone is still talking about this incident in a few months, I might be wrong... -- lucasbfr ^talk 09:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of The Register can we add the naked short sell shares controversy? 202.58.54.187 (talk) 03:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Two points: 1. This exposed a secret mailing list - people should know that the fairness of Wikipedia is questioned. Its not a storm in a tea cup, its a fundamental question about Wikipedia's openness. If we try to hide it away from general public, it just furthers the suspicion of the secret mailing list. Ofcourse, the people who belong to the secret mailing list would like to claim its just a storm in a teacup. We need to note this point and make it permanent in history. 2. I am testing the power of secret mailing list - and would like to see how long this mod will stay in the article, before the powerful editors take it away. TwakTwik (talk) 04:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed this for several reasons. It an extremely minor issue coming from one source which is often not considered a reliable source. If and when other reliable sources pick it up you're welcome to re-add it but until then it should stay out. As someone else mentioned, there are many, many articles on the register about many different companies and organisations. Clearly most of them don't deserve a mention in the main article. This issue may belong in a sub article, I don't know. But considering the other stuff in the reliability and bias section which are noteable and widely reported studies, comments etc coming from noteable organisations and people, clearly discussing the issue of wikipedia's reliability and bias this is clearly out of place. BTW, I don't belong to this mailing list or to any group of powerful editors. I'm not even an admin and actually don't really make that many mainspace article edits. So your suggestion that this was going to be removed by said group was clearly false Nil Einne (talk) 21:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with your removal. The existance of secret mailing list is not in dispute, and forming select groups within editors is not in dispute. Selectively choosing only positive notes about Wikipedia does a great disservice. While I don't doubt your claim that this is not initiated by the secret mailing list, I do think Wikipedia editors are selectively rejecting anything reported by register. Register is a reputed news source ( probably more reputed than Wikipedia itself). I am not going to remove your change, but you should restore the line about secret mailing list. TwakTwik (talk) 04:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia as the Ministry of Truth

After a discussion as to the impact of Wikipedia on the world and our everyday society. My co-workers and I came to the agreement that Wikipedia was perhaps the greatest innovation in information availability since the invention of the printing press. And as the printing press could be used to spread knowledge but it could also be used to spread propaganda and lies. As Wikipedia grows in volume of information and becomes more and more prevalent in our society as the best source for any information you could ever want or need it has the potential to become very similar to the "Ministry of Truth". Clearly we are a long way off from the "Ministry of Truth" described in George Orwell's book 1984, but potentially we have the power collective as a society to change any fact historical, literary or scientific..... Or if it was taken over by a government agency of coarse. :-P
With the power of Wikipedia I wouldn't be surprised if a world government sometime in the near future doesn't forge their own private Wikipedia (and block the real deal) and populate it with only the information they deem acceptable. And a true "Ministry of Truth" is born.

Thoughts?

--John hmstr (talk) 21:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That's called "The Press" in some countries ;) -- lucasbfr ^talk 09:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Almost anyone can edit Wikipedia. I highly doubt everyone with access to the World Wide Web would allow for Wikipedia to become some totalitarian enterprise.--Bricktoday (talk) 04:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

How Much Memory?

I saw in the article that they have hundreds of Linux computers running a dedicated server. I want to know how much memory is used to keep this site up. I know YouTube has quite a few terabytes. This surely must have quite a few. -KT- KT529 (talk) 19:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I could not find the hardware specs, but the database is surprisingly small - maybe around 30 GB. It's hard to take up too much space with what is mostly text. Video, as on YouTube, is the worst. And for the space of one average MP3, you can have all the text in the King James Bible.--Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. But, why only 30 Gb? They said they had many Linux computers in the US. 30 Gb is less than ONE good computers memory. Sorta doesn't make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KT529 (talk • contribs) 13:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not the size of the database, but the number of requests. Most of the pages are dynamically rendered, i.e. the page data is extracted from the database, it is rendered from Wiki markup into HTML (although that might be cached), the individual links are added ("my talk, my preferences,"...), the user preferences are applied, and the page is served out. Add to that all the special requests (history, comparison, diffs, inserts...). Wikipedia is not limited by disk space for the primary DB, but by processing power and network bandwidth. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

IPC merge

Sorry for being late with this:

Wikipedia in culture → Wikipedia#Cultural significance.

We don't need an edit for every "ooh, Sideshow Bob mentioned Wikipedia!" Such trivia is discouraged per WP:5P, but it is a fact that Wikipedia is a cultural phenomenom. We should, then, focus on connective trivia on how its made an impact with an example. Such is the case with "Inaccuracy: The Onion; Source of information: The Office; Meta-humour: xkcd", which is in the article. Will ^(talk) 13:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Show Who Posted Article?

Do you think it would help the community if at the bottom of the articles it showed who posted them? Then we could more directly communicate any errors to be fixed (if they're an active user). -KT-

-killertank529- (talk) 13:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

See the history link. It gives access to all authors (there usually are many) and allows you to see each change. However, this being a Wiki, if you find an error, just fix it yourself. However, these question is somewhat misplaces here - this is the talk page for the Wikipedia article on Wikipedia, not a general chat board about Wikipedia. You might want to try the village pump (WP:VILLAGE]). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Would like to add the following to reliability and bias section

I think the following disclaimer should be added:

Wikipedia uses multiple tiers of control for editors. Senior editors trusted by Jimmy Wales are given permission to protect articles from edits that they do not like. Wikipedia has an informal hierarchy of power that ensures that none of the content in Wikipedia will contradict with the views of the senior editors. TwakTwik (talk) 22:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Something along this line is discusssed at the content and internal structure section. -- Taku (talk) 23:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Your description, however, is almost entirely inaccurate; you are presumably thinking of:

1. administrators - the roughly one thousand users currently able to use a few extra tools, and respected by other users as trusted editors; some prefer the label "janitor", to stress that this should not be considered a position of editorial authority.
2. the protection policy - in specific sets of circumstances, to stop things descending into complete anarchy, pages are locked from editting; in almost all cases, this is temporary, until a particular debate or situation has been resolved (however much we like the idea of being free to edit, Wikipedia is not a social experiment, so lines do have to be drawn).

Wherever possible, neither of these factors are used to make editorial decisions, although Wikipedia certainly does have editorial policies - as agreed and implemented by the "normal" users like you and me. Come to think, there's probably an FAQ on all this somewhere. This discussion of the Wikipedia power structure might interest you. - IMSoP (talk) 23:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The recent abuses by several of these senior editors with extra tools is a cause for concern, and this group tries to prevent the public from knowing about it. The best way to save Wikipedia is by improving the transparency, unfortunately transparency is what senior editors despise most. TwakTwik (talk) 00:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I haven't been that active recently, but in my experience there are always accusations of admins abusing their power, and of sinister cabals.

Generally speaking, experienced editors (whether or not they have the extra tools) have invested more of their time and effort in the project, and will be more familiar with the accumulated rules that are essential to keep something this big running; as a consequence, they're more likely to come down hard on those they see as acting inappropriately.

As for transparency, the irony is that it's exactly the ad hoc nature of the power structure that makes it so opaque to less experienced users - everything is "hidden in plain sight", as they say. If there were a formalised "representative government", a lot of things could be simplified - but then there really would be an opportunity for abuse of power... - IMSoP (talk) 00:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Source concerns

I have re-added the primary sources tag to the Language editions section, after it was removed with the comment that it "looked ok". I disagree with this assertion: everything in the section is cited to primary sources. The only secondary source discusses the topic of the section (Language editions) only in a trivial manner, and is not sufficient. This is a problem throughout the whole of this article, but starting small seems like a good idea. User:Krator (t c) 13:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

But do we really need secondary sources for stats or lists, non-controversial facts? I also propose: If some particular statements need more citation, then it would be better to use {{fact}}. I said "looked ok" because it was unclear what a problem was. -- Taku (talk) 13:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Globe Logo

Why is it that on the English Main Page, the Wikipedia Globe Logo features a backwards "Ñ" on one of the puzzle pieces, yet on the multi-lingual page that links to every Wikipedia, the И does not have a tilde? --Ye Olde Luke 00:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, but what that letter is is the Cyrillic letter Й. —Angr 05:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's strange, I've never noticed this point. Some language editions use the same logo than the multilingual portal use (like {ar} or {sv}) and some others like {en}, {de}, {fr} don't... Maybe some answer elements or clues can be found on Meta-Wiki. 16@r (talk) 00:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Style Section

I would argue that the eponymous wikipedia entry should have a section on style, addressing the style in which wikipedia articles are written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwinslow s (talk • contribs) 05:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

That's dumb no one cares what style the info's in as long as it's there and it's accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.190.172.3 (talk) 17:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Why?

Why would wikipedia have an article on itself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PwnersRule (talk • contribs) 13:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Because it's a notable website that has received a lot of discussion in sources independent of itself. It would certainly be a strange omission for an encyclopedia not to have an article about it. (And after all, Britannica has an article about itself, so why shouldn't Wikipedia?) —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 14:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Angr!--PwnersRule (talk) 20:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)PwnersRule

I would like to point out that Britannica also has an article about Wikipedia. --130.15.161.188 (talk) 20:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Does Britannica have an artice on britanica though? :P 87.194.30.174 (talk) 00:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure it does. It has articles on several other encyclopaedias as well. --Aqwis (talk – contributions) 14:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! --PwnersRule (talk) 19:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)PwnersRule

The only reason they think it is a notable website is because they created it. Of course they are going to have a article on their website, they're conceited.05:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)~Justin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.14.188.126 (talk)

screenreading technology?

80.165.181.235 (talk) 19:01, 17 December 2007 (UTC) I kind of disaggree with the artical that screenreading technology can't be used with wikipedia, if you know your screenreader then you'll do fine, at least I do and I'm fully blind. Of course it depends on which screenreader you use, but over all I'd say wikipedia is accessible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.165.181.235 (talk) 18:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, it only says Wikipedia is impractical for use with screen readers, not that it can't be used with them. And it's tagged as unsourced, so maybe it was just one person's guess or opinion. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 19:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Licensing and user contributions.

A discussion about another wiki brought up an important issue. Unlike other text under the GFDL I don't download the whole thing before making modifications. Before Wikipedia one would copy a document, edit it on my computer, and then distribute the modified version.

I believe there should be some information about the mechanism that places contributions under the GFDL. Has anyone ever published a legal opinion that explains why having a little note at the bottom of the edit page places my contribution under the GFDL?

What allowed the content under the Bomis license to become GFDL? I'm assuming it was a donation. Did someone write a letter saying the following information is now under the GFDL?

--Gbleem (talk) 06:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Dead Link

One of the references at the end pf the article points to a non-existent page. [2] It points to an article in The Washington Post, which is no longer there. Maybe there's some sort of archive we can point to? Not being familiar with that website, I took no action. --Ruijoel (talk) 14:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

URL

This article has an external link to wikipedia.com. Though I agree that it is important to document the original URL of wikipedia, I don't think this should be an external link. When the link is clicked it just sends me to wikipedia.org, and I am already there. If someone who is able to edit this page wouldn't mind, it would be great if that link was removed. RedSox2008 (talk) 00:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This is an article about wikipedia. You may already be there, but other people may not. Wikipedia is licensed under the GFDL and other people are free to reuse our content. There ae also attempts to make wikipedia available on DVDs and CDs or even print for those without good access to the internet. You may want to read Wikipedia:Self-references to avoid. To put it simply, wikipedia should not be written from a wikipedia point of view. Nil Einne (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms section

In the intrest of neutralism, I think there ought to be a criticisms section on this article. Llamadog903 (talk) 18:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It appears to have been deleted in a fit of unnoticed vandalism in the past few days. I just restored it. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 19:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The criticism should include the sites hasty move to delete articles. Reference: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?id=199409

What an absurdly one-sided story. If anything, it's become increasingly difficult to get crap articles on nonnotable topics deleted from Wikipedia over the last few years. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 09:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Donations

Here's my mild criticism for the people a wikipedia. Though I truly enjoy the service I find the method used to solicit donations to be quite petty. Getting slammed at every page to please donate a person could find themselves under the impression that wikipedia is hurting for funds to run the website. Looking at their donations page however it is clearly not the case. I find it hard to imagine that a lot of staff is needed to run wikipedia as it is completely built by it's viewers. Staff are needed to police the articles (as I'm sure this one will be pulled) but I hardly see their being a shortage of funds for them looking at the volume of donations received by the website. Beyond that, new hardware and software as well as other expenses seem to all be more than covered looking at the donations page. So where's all the money going? I can make a guess but will keep that to myself. Anyway, having a donations page is a great idea. But do you really have to act like you are in such need of funds when you are receiving ridiculous amounts of money already? Is the wiki team sick of flying business and considering a private jet? Does the head office seem a little boring and making trump tours look more your style? Please. You want donations and you're getting them. Stop acting like your going broke because no one is buying it. If anything, seeing that banner at the top of every page makes me want to donate even less then before. It's just greedy. My advice is that you stop before someone does an expose on you guys and where their "donations" are going. Seems like something I may see on dateline someday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.146.101.146 (talk • contribs) 28 December 2007

If you really want to know, they're moving much of their equipment and things to San Francisco, CA, and making a couple new board positions, and they also want to become a global outreach charity for the distribution of free knowledge (OLPC and all), and they still need to pay their electricity bill, so there! 68.101.123.219 (talk) 02:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

If you want to know what the money is planned to be spent on, see the image below:

What must be understood is that the Wikipedia database is very large. A database dump of just the top revisions of all the pages on Wikipedia, in an archive file is six gigabytes large. Multiply in all revisions, all wikipedias, your compression ratio, and you're talking terabytes upon terabytes, not to mention the backups. On top of that, they need memory, processing, bandwidth just to make Wikipedia run as smoothly as it does today. Will ^(talk) 02:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

License of that screenshot

The license of that screenshot bothers me. I thought this was a free encyclopedia. It really has to be changed or removed! --212.247.27.80 (talk) 13:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

logo

has the icon that appears before the adress in IE7 changed from a W to some multicoloured thing ^DAVID _CAT 16:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

article about Wikipedia?

There are lots of articles out there about our WP experiment. I am wondering what the consensus is for inclusion of any of these articles in an external links section here? For example, here is one, albeit, of a more controversial nature, but still interesting: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/04/wikipedia_secret_mailing/ Giovanni33 (talk) 09:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Press coverage is a good place for this kind of stuff. In this article, on the other hand, it is just not a practical to mention every single scandal involving Wikipedia. It's probably a good idea to expand on the power structure of wikipedia, though; like, how Wikipedia is a not democracy. The current article doesn't clearly describe the extent of the power Jimbo has over editorial decisions or such. The challenge is to achieve this in a non-self-referential concise manner. -- Taku (talk) 22:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

What Linux distribution runs Wikipedia?

I couldn't find any info about it. Where can I find it? Is it Debian and if so what version? Do all servers run on the same Linux distribution? Tommy (talk) 17:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

A mixture - mostly Fedora and Ubuntu. You can see more on Meta-Wiki. Will ^(talk) 19:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Tommy (talk) 17:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia in the media

Shouldn't this article link to Wikipedia:Wikipedia in the media and Wikipedia:Editing of Wikipedia by the media? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.64.213 (talk) 15:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

How to learn not to trust wikipedia.

this is why people should not trust wikipedia beacause a girl who is not in her 20s is writting this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.121.246.217 (talk) 00:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

== cuba == cabana

Sorry? The age of the authors has no relation to the reliability of the work. Please see Wikipedia:Replies to common objections#Trustworthiness. --Puchiko (Talk-email) 13:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I would trust some teenage girl more than some cia agent. -- Taku (talk) 03:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Headline text

What's the password to edit Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lunchscale\Lobbykneew (talk • contribs) 08:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No password is needed: you can edit most pages. This page is semi protected to prevent vandalism: you will be able to edit this page 4 days after you registered your account. --h2g2bob (talk) 13:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The link for footnote number 68 is wrong.

The article is no longer in the "current_edition." The correct hyperlink is: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=209408 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.89.253.42 (talk) 23:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Note that any user can fix errors they see. PeterSymonds | talk 18:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Not IPs, this page is semi protected :) --h2g2bob (talk) 13:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Mention by the Supreme Court of India

Thankyou Nbeniwal for the details [3] of Wikipedia's mention by the Supreme Court of India. I don't think it warrants being in the introduction though, so I am moving it here for now:

The in Commr. of Customs, Bangalore vs. ACER India Pvt. Ltd (Citation: 2007(12)SCALE581) stated that: We have referred to wikipedia, as the learned Counsel for the parties relied thereupon. It is an online encyclopaedia and information can be entered therein by any person and as such it may not be authentic. It may be useful to note that observations of the Supreme Court are binding on all courts in India.

Once the citation is re-formatted as a footnote (is this available online?), I think this could be included briefly in the Criticism section. Open4D (talk) 12:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

From this text: [4]. I think the text about a specific case where they're using definitions from Wikipedia for non-controversial definitions? --h2g2bob (talk) 22:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Italics

Shouldn't the word 'Wikipedia' be italicized? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, an encyclopedia is a work, and names of works should be italicized (like titles of books, albums, magazines, films and tv series are.) — Jhn* 20:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The intro of the article defines wikipedia to be an "encyclopedia building project" so I guess that's why the name wikipedia is not italicized. -- Taku (talk) 03:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It depends what standars you are using, if you use the APA's strict standard for example, Wikipedia would only be italicised in certain conditions. I personaly think its not worth bothering with really.

­Julienrl (talk) 05:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Founders listed twice

Founders are listed...then another paragraph lists them again, stating what each brought to the project. What each brought to project should be moved up, after first mention of founders, and the redundant paragraph deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.2.27 (talk) 07:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia and School

Many schools don't like wikipedia because they think that the information is false. I wanted to see if that was true. So I edited (added) a sentence to Japan saying, "It is common knowledge that Japan is the largest country in the world." That edit was corrected within seconds. Should schools accept wikipedia as a reliable source of information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivan G14 (talk • contribs) 23:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

For more information, take a look at: Wikipedia:Replies to common objections#Trustworthiness. In my personal opinion, Wikipedia is an excellent starting point but if you're writing a paper or essay, you should use more than one source. In fact, I don't think anyone should write his whole paper based on an encyclopaedia, regardless of which one.
And please, don't ever try to insert incorrect information into Wikipedia on purpose. It wastes the time of contributors who could be writing excellent articles. Puchiko (Talk-email) 15:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: The following text was added into the middle of Ivan's post by User:86.163.172.151. To avoid making it seem like Ivan wrote this, I moved the information here. The inserted text read: Yes but... Wikipedia is edited by people without any knowledge other than that which they can confirrm [sic] though [sic] other internet searches. And, [sic] if you edit any living person's profile in a complimentary way (however flattering), it remains- but disagree with these compliments and you either need a citation or you're a vandal. Wikipedia is a lowbrow nerds' half accurate fact book designed by the poorly educated for the poorly educated. At least it keeps the editors/administratos [sic] /whatever they call themselves away from kiddie-fiddling for afew [sic] hours. (COME ON CENSOR ME IF YOU"RE GUILTY- 1st one to "revert" is the paedophile) (end of inserted text). Comment moved by Puchiko (Talk-email) 21:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it will be wisest to respond to your comments one by one. Your original statement is bold, my answer follows in normal font:

• Yes but... Wikipedia is edited by people without any knowledge other than that which they can confirrm [sic] though [sic] other internet searches.
  Not really. Our articles cite books, newspapers, and scholarly journals as references. Our contributors include teachers at the University of California; computer science professors; NBC news journalists; professors of Genome Sciences and Biology at the University of Washington; social scientists; economists; professors of Astronomy at the University of Texas; Oxford professors; Nobel prize winners and other qualified professionals.
• And, [sic] if you edit any living person's profile in a complimentary way (however flattering), it remains- but disagree with these compliments and you either need a citation or you're a vandal.
  Negative information could get us sued, positive information isn't going to, so it's more overlooked. However, our policies clearly require all material about living persons to be cited.
• Wikipedia is a lowbrow nerds' half accurate fact book designed by the poorly educated for the poorly educated.
  See above for notable academic and professors who are also Wikipedians. You'll find many others at Wikipedia:Wikipedians with articles.
• At least it keeps the editors/administratos [sic] /whatever they call themselves away from kiddie-fiddling for afew [sic] hours.
  I think it's rather humorous to accuse Wikipedians of paedophilia considering that a huge number of contributors (including yours truly) are below 15. Puchiko (Talk-email) 16:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

In reply to "Then again, the fact that the Wikipedians have brought you into the fold even though you're 15 does support the opinion that they're paedophiles grooming adolescents." which was posted on my talk page.
I'm fourteen. One of German Wikipedia's administrators was thirteen when he was voted administrator. I've never experienced any child grooming on Wikipedia. I have, however, seen it on sites intended for children, such as Neopets or RuneScape. Puchiko (Talk-email) 20:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Real and nominal $ values in articles

Hello, I will start with a bit of context, please bear with me. I was reading an article about hackers earlier today and they were talking about a 10 000$ fine,then I watched a movie about the civil war and tehy talk about 25$, 300$ and 1000$ and it got me thinking... how much is that worth?! Wouldin't it be possible to have pages show and automaticaly update a nominal value? For example, if someone got fined 1000 in 1977, it would be shown as

"1000 $(equivalent to 2000$ today)"

or if the fine was 1000$ in 2000 it would say:

"1000$ (equivalent to 1180$ today)"

and the multiplyer could be updated yearly but variable would keep the same name so that the algorithm would not have to be changed. The article would not be touched but would be automaticaly updated. This way we could have a table of multiplyers for different years\countries updated yearly or more if wanted and you just have to insert the line of code that applies to your contry (since inflation enormously varies from one country to an other).

Along the same lines, could we not have an automatic conversion to USD and\or €? (Being canadian I know that I would like to see it in CAD$ but hey, who am I kidding lol)

Julienrl (talk) 05:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC) Julien feb 11 2008

Error in Paragraph

Software and hardware

Wikipedia currently runs on dedicated clusters of GNU/Linux servers, 300 in Florida, 26 in Amsterdam and 23 in Yahoo!'s Korean hosting facility in Soul.[48] Wikipedia employed a single server until 2004, when the server setup was expanded into a distributed multitier architecture. In January 2005, the project ran on 39 dedicated servers located in Florida. This configuration included a single master database server running MySQL, multiple slave database servers, 21 web servers running the Apache HTTP Server, and seven Squid cache servers.

220.133.92.72 (talk) 17:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks! -- Vary | Talk 17:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The error was due to me. It escaped the spell-checker. I still can't believe that I made that error. -- Taku (talk) 09:47, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia (terminology)

Since nearly all the terms related to Wikipedia (Wikimedia, MediaWiki, etc.) are easily confused by people finding out the "wikisphere", I was thinking of the idea of creating a new article titled Wikipedia (terminology) similar to British Isles (terminology) (British Isles (disambiguation) is a redirect) and Netherlands (terminology) (and Netherlands (disambiguation)). But I prefer to request for comments before creating it because it's useless to write something if it's deleted a few while after. So what do you think of it? 16@r (talk) 16:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. -- Taku (talk) 22:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia banned in UK Universities

Should there be mention of the fact that because it is so unreliable as a source of citation, WP is banned in most UK Universities? Does the same apply to other countries? Mike0001 (talk) 22:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Not heard anything about it at Nottingham. But you should never cite wikipedia, you cite wikipedia's sources. -mattbuck (Talk) 22:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This article mentions that Wikipedia has been criticised for its unreliability. I think the criticism is sufficient to ensure NPOV. And if you don't have a source for your claim, it's WP:OR. More information can be found at Wikipedia:Replies to common objections#Reliability. Puchiko (Talk-email) 15:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how (or where) to write it, but rather than start talking about particular countries or particular universities where Wikipedia is not accepted, would it be simplest to point out (not simply in the criticism section) that Wikipedia is (and has never claimed to be, hence this not being criticism) a "primary source" for information, and that it follows from this that Wikipedia cannot be regarded as valid for academic citation.

Uncontroversial, informative, and if nothing else, reduces unwarranted criticism of unreliability.

Prof Wrong (talk) 15:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Good God. I tried to put this in and got reverted twice for not having published sources. Not having published sources? For the fact that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not an academic journal? Are you lot having a laugh?

All I'm trying to do is make it clear that the fact that it can't be cited as a source doesn't mean it's in any way "wrong" or "bad"....

Prof Wrong (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

You were reverted because you were trying to claim that use of Wikipedia is banned at universities. You need to cite proper sources for a claim like that. Gwernol 20:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

If that was your only complaint, why not remove that claim alone and just change it to end "and doing so is discouraged", rather than revert the entire edit? Prof Wrong (talk) 10:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

For convenience of the others, I cite Prof Wrong's addition:

"As an encylopedia, Wikipedia is not (and has never claimed to be) a primary source of information. As such, it is unwise to cite Wikipedia in any academic or scholarly works, and doing so is not only discouraged by Wikipedia, but is also banned by a number of institutions."

There are several problems with it. The first sentence is a general fact; like a sky is blue. The article needs to contain information specific to Wikipedia. Maybe there are so many, too many, people who don't even know this general fact, but we are not here to preach them. This also applies to the first part of the second sentence. Finally, the last part of the second sentence is problematic because it's not specific enough. Like writing on a movie review, stating that many people didn't like the movie is not encyclopedic.

Having said this, I think this is an important point that the article hasn't adequately discusses. We all know, anecdotally, that many students (outside US) consult Wikipedia too and universities or professors have policies on the use. In short, the point is important, but the addition that made the point wasn't good. -- Taku (talk) 03:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

How is it "preaching" to give useful information to someone? Anyone reading the article clearly wants to know what Wikipedia is and isn't. The boundaries of a topic are always going to be relative. Someone wanting to know what Wikipedia is isn't likely to click on encyclopaedia to find out -- they'll expect everything on wikipedia. The sky article does mention that the sky is blue -- you don't have to go to another page to find out.

Prof Wrong (talk) 10:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence is all right, I wouldn't have a problem with including it in the article. But then the problems start:

• As such, it is unwise to cite Wikipedia in any academic or scholarly works-"unwise" is POV
• and doing so is not only discouraged by Wikipedia-who's Wikipedia? A lot of articles and a lot of people with radically different opinions. I don't think you can get each and every Wikipedian with this claim.
  Yes, Jimbo discourages it, and I agree with him. But neither Jimbo nor me are Wikipedia.
• but is also banned by a number of institutions. Per WP:WEASEL, words like "some", "many" and "a number" should be replaced by a more specific claim, for example "Cambridge University's college of medicine bans the use of Wikipedia as a source in its students' papers."

So I have no objections to the first sentence being added but the rest shouldn't. Puchiko (Talk-email) 17:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Administration

How long does it take from me becoming an editor (this week) to being able to be a full administrator on Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tangola (talk • contribs) 22:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

This discussion page is for discussing the article about Wikipedia, not the use of Wikipedia itself. Regardless, see Wikipedia:Guide to requests for adminship. You must put in a considerable amount of effort and work into Wikipedia to become an Administrator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottydude (talk • contribs) 20:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

vandalism

any1 noticed sum tard has called us cock sucking deuch-bags on the description of the site thingy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki443556 (talk • contribs) 18:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

More vandalism

"As of December 2007 !!!!you guys are cock sucking douche bags.," -- vandalism to be removed -- How can this happen is the page is protected?? 216.194.0.237 (talk) 18:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It was only a cache problem. I fixed it. 79.1.74.103 (talk) 19:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Slate

If anyone wants to mention a study done that found that about one percent of Wikipedia's contributors control most of the content, a good reference is an article at Slate here. —134.139.135.84 (talk) 00:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• That could be a good little factoid, but I don't know if it belongs on the article. Undeath (talk) 03:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Spelling Error Needs to be Fixed

When I typed Wikipedia into the search bar on the left hand side I read for a minute and then came down to the 'Reliability and bias' section. There I found a really small spelling error that should be corrected. In the first paragraph of that headline is dispalyed here:

"Wikipedia does not require that its contributors give their legal names or provide other information to establish their identity. A 2007 study by researchers from Dartmouth College found that anonymous and infrequent contributors to Wikipedia are as reliable a source of knowledge as those contributors who register with the site..."

The Italic text is techonally a grammer error. I tried to fix it myself but the is a Wiki Personel Only Editing thing I guess. Just though I'd give you the heads up.

Ridem92

The page is protected so that people without Wikipedia accounts, like me, and those with new accounts cannot edit it. After your account is four days old, however, you will be able to fix it yourself if no one else does. — 134.139.135.84 (talk) 22:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Am I missing something? Where's the mistake? The JPSwirlface (talk) 00:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Merger with Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia

I propose that we merge the above article into here. While I believe the topic (Deletionism v.s. Inclusionism) is a valid encyclopedic topic because of the media coverage, I don't think it merits the detailed standalone article. The issue is not currently mentioned in the Wikipedia article, which is not good at all, and it seems to make sense to discuss it here in a succinct manner. -- Taku (talk) 02:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC) I mean the problem with the above article has to do with its "proportion". The "deletionism v.s. inclusionism" is a subtopic of the more general topic on "Wikipedia community", which is discussed in the content and internal section in this article. Giving far larger space for the subtopic rather than its parent topics makes little sense. Of course, one could argue that "Wikipedia community" (which is currently redirected to here) merits a standalone article, but that's another issue. General speaking, I think we need to have the less amount of text discussing Wikipedia and its related topics than we currently have. -- Taku (talk) 02:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• I disagree--I think specificity of topics is important and that separating different topics is important as well. I think that the Deletion and Inclusion article is distinctly different from the general Wikipedia article and thus should remain separate. I think that every issue should have its own topic without "shorting" it by not giving it the full detail and credit that each topic deserves, especially the topic of Wikipedia, considering that without it we obviously wouldn't be here. Cory Parkinson, Composer (ASCAP)/Pianist/Vocalist (talk) 05:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
• Merge issues were pointed out at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deletionist versus Inclusionist Controversy. –Pomte 18:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
• I also disagree. This page is 74 kilobytes long. and growing. There's a good reason why sub pages and sister articles exist. Mkdw^talk 21:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
• I disagree. This page is long enough as it is. Also, the deletionism isn't necessary to explain wikipedia. Undeath (talk) 03:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. As Mkdw pointed out, the daughter article is much too long to merge back into the parent. I do wonder if the deletion v. inclusionist article should be moved into the Wikipedia namespace, as to minimize self-references. Lovelac7 00:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Vikipedia

Does anybody want to tell me why Vikipedia redirects to the Wikipedia article? Joelster (talk) 23:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

What's Vikipedia? Since no articles in Wikipedia links to it, the redirect is probably unneeded. -- Taku (talk) 23:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

My point exactly. Joelster (talk) 00:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I don't remember my exact reasons for creating the page, but I suspect it's because "Vikipedia" is the name of Wikipedia in various languages, or at least a declention of the noun form "Vikipedio"... see for example: [5] [6] [7] [8]. Vikipedio, Vikipediya etc are already redirects as well. Cheers — SteveRwanda (talk) 14:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

That's what I thought. That's fair enough I guess. Thanks for replying anyway. Cheers, Joelster (talk) 22:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

A techno-cult of ignorance

http://www.aetherometry.com/Electronic_Publications/Politics_of_Science/Antiwikipedia/awp_index.html

What about it? Do you want to use it as a source? Puchiko (Talk-email) 16:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

links= completly pointless on this article

why do you need links and stuff when you have everything you need to know on the wikipedia site? just have the makers edit this and ur done, all facts are down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.229.235.205 (talk) 01:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

A misspelling in reference no. 52

The last name of Aaron Swartz appears to be misspelled in entry no. 52. (A moment ago I corrected the same mistake (and added a hyperlink) in the section titled "Content and internal structure.") Fagiolonero (talk) 21:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. -- Taku (talk) 13:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Letter as a source

Here is a posting by Larry, I am wondering if we can use it as a source.... according to this letter, wikipedia was his idea and Jimmy was opposed to it initially. [[9]] Sethie (talk) 00:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

OFF TOPIC Wikipedia im sorry

i am sorry for vandliseing a good advance wars artical please accept my apology

and could you please tell me who sent my warning letter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.73.96 (talk) 00:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It's okay, just don't do it again :) The warning was issued by User:penubag. Puchiko (Talk-email) 19:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Difference between logo used on Wikipedias and the one used on the multilingual portal

Why are two different versions used, although the differences are only minor ones. --72.75.52.243 (talk) 09:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

This talk page has 69 KB (10460 words). This could cause a lot of technical issues so I think we should WP:Archive this talk page. I'd use the subpage method, cut-and-paste procedure. I'd leave the threads started in March 2008 still here, because they might still be active. What do you think? Note: If there are no objections by Wednesday, I will perform the archiving. Puchiko (Talk-email) 15:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just set up auto-archiving on this page. All old discussions will be automatically archived by a bot every day. You don't need to do anything. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:38, 16 Mar 2008 (UTC)

Can someone fix this?

This is what I see when I look at the article on Wikipedia:

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/Moe_Epsilon/?action=view&current=screenshot1.png

You can click to enlarge the image. No, that is not vandalism. The image shows the beginning of the header, Wikipedia, but then has several spaces of white until the infobox has passed. The text "(IPA: /ˌwɪkɨˈpiːdiə/, /ˌwiːkiˈpiːdiə...." immediately starts after the infobox. Is there some way to fix that? — Κaiba 12:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I just know that Wikipedia is just gone some time. I wonder it was on disscuion. Do you think I was a disscuion