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I would prefer his theological discourses be found under "religion" if anyone can actually come up with a guaranteed correct version of what he meant <g>. Thanks! [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 15:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I would prefer his theological discourses be found under "religion" if anyone can actually come up with a guaranteed correct version of what he meant <g>. Thanks! [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 15:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC)



mark twain is one of the best known authors and has written a lot of touching and meaningfull stories. he has changed my ways in many ways through him and his ways. he is my great great great great grandpapa. i love and miss you granddaddyy.

Revision as of 16:16, 12 January 2009

Template:WP1.0

Former good article nomineeMark Twain was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 8, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Article Collaboration and Improvement DriveThis article was on the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive for the week of October 29, 2006.

==Taft Quote I think the Taft quote is crass and timeserving. Is there something better? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.170.103 (talk) 23:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did Twain have a bad run in with Native Americans?

In the article he talks highly of coloured men, black, asian - bet when it comes to natives he's aggressive. Anything effect him that would make him baised?

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.81.124 (talk) 23:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Twain was not PC. His essay on the Literary Offenses of Fenimore Cooper might be interpreted as being anti-Indian, but that is the risk of analysing literary satire. "Injun Joe" was a villain, and viewed as such by Tom and Huck, but automatically ascribing any base motives to Twain is iffy. One might as well call him a racist for his treatment of Jim, but Clemens paid full costs for a black student at Yale -- anonymously. Clemens was complex, to be sure, but some of the nastiness ascribed to him is the result of misunderstanding his points. http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/senate/judiciary/sh102-1084pt2/257-258.pdf does not paint the picture of a racist. Collect (talk) 01:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Misc.

In the passage on pacifism, it states that an article of his was republished for Vietnam War soldiers in "1923." This should clearly be 1973. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.111.134 (talk) 22:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Halley's comet at birth and death---both are cited as the closest to nearly hitting earth. Perhaps only the first one is actually. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jenni9c (talkcontribs) 19:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Travel and stay in India

So, it is not surprising to find no mention of Twain's travel and stay in (and love for) India in the article. He was probably the biggest Indophile who ever lived, Albert Einstein and Will Durant included. I seem to remember he clearly mentioned his stay in Bombay ("the mere glimpse of Indian life") as one of the most rewarding experiences of his life in Following the Equator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.141.43.113 (talk) 18:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pen Name Origin

I saw on the History Channel's expose on Mississippi that Sam Clemens was a river boat captain on the Mississippi River and that when you measure the river's depth, it was called twaining. And marking twain is when you note the river's depth or number of fathoms. Not sure how to cite this, hoping someone else could, ha. 69.37.166.38 17:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added a brief paragraph with citations regarding alternate potential origins of the "Mark Twain" name that includes some scholarly and biographical research. I'm not sure whether or not this should be it's own section/sub-section, but I think it's compelling (factually, not just from an interest standpoint) especially considering the fact that Twain was a fiction author given to making up facts and stories, even in his non-fiction reporting. In any event, I tried to be as thorough and correctly-formatted as possible, but I wanted to raise the issue here. How do we deal with authors or those who have written autobiographies and their accounts of events and squaring this with neutral articles, especially now that the person is long-deceased? mostlymuppet

Clemens insisted he reused a pen name originally used by Isaiah Sellers. http://www.twainquotes.com/Steamboats/Sellers.html Clemens definitely wrote a burlesque of Sellers using the name "Sergeant Fathom" which makes any origin other than "Mark Twain" meaning "Two Fathoms" quite suspect. Collect (talk) 01:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Family Life

I think that the last paragraph from the "Life as a Writer" section should be deleted and a separate section discussing his marriage and family created. Something should be done with the last paragraph as it does not fit with the rest of the information and is out of chronological order. Any other thoughts? Windmillchaser 05:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Life as a writer quote

In this section we have the quote

"This book is a record of a pleasure trip. If it were a record of a solemn scientific expedition it would have about it the gravity, that profundity, and that impressive incomprehensibility which are so proper to works of that kind, and withal so attractive. Yet not withstanding it is only a record of a picnic, it has a purpose, which is, to suggest to the reader how he would be likely to see Europe and the East if he looked at them with his own eyes instead of the eyes of those who traveled in those countries before him. I make small pretense of showing anyone how he ought to look at objects of interest beyond the sea – other books do that, and therefore, even if I were competent to do it, there is no need."

I really don't see what this quote adds to the material and recommend it be deleted. --Ideogram 01:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA ON HOLD

I have placed this GA candidate on hold for the following:

  • There is one {{citation needed}} in the text.
  • A few more inline citations are needed in the middle
  • The cleanup tag near the end of the article needs to be dealt with.

Also Consider:

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is well written.
    a (prose): b (structure): c (MoS): d (jargon):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (inline citations): c (reliable): d (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

Hope to see this a good article soon.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 12:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dislike of Rail?

I'm curious about the statement that he disliked railroads, as I was just reading a sketch of his last night in favor of them, arguing that in bed asleep was a much more dangerous place to be. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.246.144.133 (talk) 04:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Samuel Clemens vs. Mark Twain

Wouldn't this article be better under the name "Samuel Clemens" with Mark Twain as a redirect? After all, Mark Twain was only his pen name, and Samuel Clemens his real name. It would make more sense that way. 'WiiWillieWiki(Talk) (Contributions) 15:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See my comment on the talk page of Lewis Carroll where you make a similar comment today about that author. I think the same points apply here (apart from a point about you spelling his real name incorrectly.)  DDStretch  (talk) 17:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have had this debate before. And, if I recall correctly, the most commonly used name was our choice. Vaoverland 20:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On a slightly different point, within the article it consistently refers to him as Twain. I've just corrected several random places where it called him Mark Twain, or variants on his real name. For anyone interested, WP:NAMES#Subsequent uses of names is the relevant guideline. Lessthanideal (talk) 20:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Failed

It's been in excess of the 7 day maximum that the GA nomination was put on-hold and issues relating to the original reviewer's comments still exist. Specifically, citations are still needed in the 'Youth' section. Further, the 'Career' section at the end still requires clean-up and maintenance. Also I'd take into consideration the goals set out at the top of this page, specifically "Leads needs to be expanded per WP:LEAD and summarize the whole article --plange 16:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)"

Citations alone fail the article (see WP:WIAGA), though do take into consideration the recommendations given by myself and the other reviewer Natl1. Try again at a later date when all issues are addressed. Cheers. Nja247 (talkcontribs) 18:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Mysterious Stranger

There is much misinformation and confusion regarding this novel. The article in its current form says that 44 is Satan. This is untrue. Mark Twain's biographer Albert Bigelow Paine released a false novel under Twain's name called "The Mysterious Stranger". This novel was a compilation of the 3 drafts Twain had written, relying on mostly the first and not final draft. Paine also deleted a large sum of the work, added a character, and changed the ending of the novel. The final draft only was not realeased by itself until 1969 by the Mark Twain Library and is titled "No. 44, the Mysterious Stranger". It is a very different novel than the version starring Satan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.58.2.25 (talk) 00:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

'The report of my death is an exaggeration'

I've somewhat rewritten this bit to correct the quote itself and some common misconceptions about the circumstances (e.g. no obituary was published). For more details see the Twain entry in List of premature obituaries and the references it cites, which give a full account. Ben Finn 14:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Religious Beliefs

The article says : "Twain was critical of organized religion and certain elements of the Christian religion through most of the end of his life, though he never renounced Presbyterianism[19]" This suggests that he retained a core belief in Christianity/presbyterianism, however on looking at the citation given this opinion is based on an early piece of writing (1866)and its difficult to reconcile later quotations with any such beliefs. Unless a proper citation is given that clearly confirms the suggestion then it should be deleted. 82.40.71.124 19:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I thought he was being irreverent and sarcastic when he was talking about Presbyterianism and its dogmas, specifically infant damnation. Anyway, I'm not sure if he renounced belief in God (it says here that he was a deist) but he certainly renounced belief in an afterlife. I'm not even sure he renounced belief in the supernatural. He wasn't close-minded about mysticism and supernaturalism, anyway. --Onias 20:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The citation (The Religious Affiliation Mark Twain celebrated American author) does not at all support the statement: "Twain was critical of organized religion and certain elements of the Christian religion through most of the end of his life, though he never renounced Presbyterianism". At most it proves that (1) he grew up Presbytarian and (2) that he was very critical of it. I am going to delete the sentence. --Siener 07:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You should add a cite needed tag instead of deleting the sentence. It is well-known that Mark Twain was very critical of organized religion in his later years. Read "Letters from the Earth" and you will see it is true. Someone will find another reference for the sentence. If you want to delete the part about "though he never renounced Presbyterianism" because it implies hypocrisy, go ahead, but the first part of the sentence is very very true.--Paul 14:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

His funeral was at a Presbyterian church in New York City (the "Old Brick Church"), and he had donated funds to buikd a Presbyterian church in Nevada. http://www.twainquotes.com/19100424a.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11072383/ Collect (talk) 01:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Citation needed" in Pen Names section

The reference should be:

THE ADVENTURES OF THOMAS JEFFERSON SNODGRASS Pascal Covici, 1928, Chicago

Would someone who chooses to edit under an account please add this?

Thanks.

"Mark Twain went strait fiction with Joan of Arc"

This is untrue. Joan of Arc is factual, and this should be fixed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.246.99.186 (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I've read somewhere -- probably in Albert Bigelow Paine's biography -- that Twain did more research on Joan of Arc than for any of his other books, two years or so studying the transcripts of her trial and other contemporary and near-contemporary evidence. But it's still a novel, not a biography, though a novel based more closely on documented facts than most historical novels. --Jim Henry (talk) 11:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Random changes in name

Yeah, okay, I get the "using the most common name as the title" thing. That's cool. But is it too much trouble to use the same name (Twain vs. Clemens) throughout the WHOLE article, instead of randomly flopping about?67.142.130.24 04:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Great American Novel

The citation for this claim leads to a list made by a random Amazon.com reviewer. That's terrible. There are plenty of credible sites and reviewers out there who have claimed that Huckleberry Finn is the Great American Novel. Use one of them; not this random Amazon.com review. That's totally illegitimate. 72.130.89.63 02:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Anonymous[reply]

I totally agree. I've changed the reference to a page at americaslibrary.gov (a site maintained by the Library of Congress). Adam McMaster 08:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Angina pectoris does not cause death

Angina pectoris is the description of a characteristic central chest pain caused by arteriosclerosis or blockage of the coronary arteries.

So the correct cause of death should be "heart infarct" or, simpler, "heart attack" ("...died of a heart attack on April...")

Twain v. the French

Twain's writing contains some notable (and hilarious) digs on the French. Does anyone know what gave him this attitude?

Hortas 11:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have a missing citation: under Youth, where it cites the income for a river pilot as $250, this can be found in "Life on the Mississppi" by Mark Twain, chapter 15. Hwrite 22:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

newpaper article/obituary

I have transcribed an obituary on Wikisource: s:The San Francisco Call/Mark Twain Called by Death that may be of use for this article. John Vandenberg 06:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed

"Samuel Clemens was color blind, a condition that fueled his witty banter in the social circles of the day.[citation needed]" I cut this because it really doesn't make any sense to me at all (are color blindness and wit somehow connected? Did he famously make remarks about color blindness?) and is unsourced. Dina 20:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Protect?

The level of idiocy in recent days has probably reached the protection status. What do you reckon?--Svetovid 18:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to add a link:

( Because Mark Twain was inducted into the Nevada Writers Hall of Fame in 1998, based on his journalist career in Virginia City, Nevada, with the Territorial Enterprise newspaper, etc.. We do not attempt to provide a biographical sketch or formal bibliography for him. However, his Webpage provides an automatic search of the University of Nevada, Reno Library's collection for materials by and about him.) - Betty Glass, Special Collections Librarian, Special Collections & Archives Dept., University of Nevada, Reno Libraries —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epona2 (talkcontribs) 00:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to add a link like:

to the External Links:Works section. This links to a list of Twain works that you can download to read on a cell phone. I have read quite a few from this site and got a lot of value out being able to read the PD texts away from the PC.

The texts are Public Domain in the US, just like Project Gutenberg, they are packaged with the reader and available under a creative commons licence (share if (attribution, non-commercial, no derivative) ). The site is non-commercial without registration, subscription, or advertising. The texts as packaged together with the reader as a java program that runs on cell phones, this is a way for people to access the authors work that adds to the range in the existing external links (hopefully translating to more reading going on).

I checked WP:EL and the link seems appropriate:

  • What should be linked: '...should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.'
  • Links normally to be avoided: it seems only #8 might apply; 'Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content...'. The site lets you download java programs that only run on a J2ME environment, this means most/all current cell phones. So although they are limited to being read on a phone they do add an access method to all the others in the existing External Links, in the same way that LibriVox adds a format but requires an mp3 player.

Filomath 00:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's some horrible web design, but it seems like a good source to link to.--Svetovid 12:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reversion of redirect

The page was redirected earlier to Samuel Langhorn Clemens which redirects to Mark Twain etc. I don't see consensus on this talk page for a page move to the alternate title (and in fact, the page was not moved.) I reverted the edit to restore the content of the article (although I apologize, I didn't mean to call it vandalism -- I'm not sure what it was!). --Darkwind (talk) 00:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You beat me to it seemingly by milliseconds ;). The whole entry was copied and pasted to Samuel Langhorne Clemens (not the lack of an "e" so the redirect didn't point there - instead it was a weird circular redirect pointing at itself. Even if you were going to move an entry (after gaining a consensus) you wouldn't do it like that. So even if it was just ham-fisted editing it was bordering on vandalism anyway and needed reverting. (Emperor 00:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]
Presumably is said elsewhere, but worth saying here in case, and in any case: By far best known as Mark Twain; other versions of his name must redirect here.

Elmira and Hartford

I removed

He sold his stake in the newspaper and moved to Elmira, New York in 1871.

(which is unsourced) based on reliable info that either contradicts it, or makes his Elmira sojourn apparently insignificant trivia.
--Jerzyt 20:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Socialist?

Mark Twain was also a support of socialist ideas and had sympathies with American socialist parties.

There is no citation for this reference. If nothing is provided to support this I will delete it.--Kibbled bits 21:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are likely correct. Twain was opposed to the Spanish American War, and appeared to have misgivings about T. Roosevelt, but was otherwise associated with Republicans, especially his close friend President Grant. Collect (talk) 01:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Massive reversion and unreversion

I have put a lot of work into reorganising this article and adding reference. This was all reverted, and then, with an apology in the edit summary, (mostly or entirely) unreverted. Please ould you explain your intentions or specific objections. BrainyBabe 13:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to apologise for that. It was an accident which should never have happened, due to a couple of scripting errors on my part. I believe that it should all have been restored to before my original reversion, and if there's anything lost there, which there shouldn't be, then I apologise in advance for any time wasted and any inconvenience caused. I don't have any objections to any of the edits - it was a small error in script which led to this.----JamesSugronoU|C 07:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In a way I have been surprised not to have had any comments or (principled) objections to some of my quite large decisions, which I would have welcomed, but I wasn't prepared for wholesale deletion of my work, and thought that an avid fan of the great man, without much knowledge of WP, had decided I was too uppity. Apology accepted. BrainyBabe 22:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Progressive

Part of this sentence perplexes me. "Although some aspects of his life were not progressive (for example, he remained neutral during the Civil War and participated in a silver rush in Nevada), as he grew older he grew more radical."

Can anyone give me a convincing explanation as to why participating in a Nevada silver rush would have anything to do with being progressive, or not being progressive? If not, I'll delete it. Marieblasdell 18:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it doesn't sound quite right, and I am probably the culprit. The sentence previous to my large-scale changes read
Although Twain remained neutral during the Civil War and participated in a silver rush in Nevada, later in life he wrote glowingly about unions in the river boating industry in Mississippi in Life on the Mississippi, which was read in union halls decades later
which doesn't really hang together either. Suggestions? Or just go ahead and delete the silver rush reference. BrainyBabe 19:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Political and religious views

I've done some revision on the political and religious views section. I've changed Clemens to Twain, took out the references to socialism and the silver rush, a weasel sentence in the beginning as well as some minor grammatical changes. However, I think this whole section needs a lot overhaul. One thing in particular is that most of the references in the section seem to come a single source, an article in the International Socialist Review. A lot of the different sections need to be expanded anyway but it worries me that so much of this section seems to be drawn from one source. Windmillchaser 15:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've just seen this, and if I had spotted it sooner, would have replied here before making my recent change, sorry. Clemens/Twain: as someone else said, consistency is the most important issue; I'll let others argue which name to use. Silver rush: see above. Socialism: I think it is justified, eg his speech to the unions, but will not pursue it without further sources. Helen Keller: I guess this is what you refered to as a weasel sentence. I would regard it as historical context; I am not asserting any other link between them, or conspiracy of silence or anything. Single source: yes, but it is a very academic one, and draws on multiple sources itself, many of which are quoted verbatim, so it's pretty directly back to Twain's words and views. Hope this answers your points. Sorry again for not seeing this first. By the way, another time you may wish to raise the issues on a talk page before deleting --it's not necessary, but some editors prefer to hash out potentially controversial changes behind the scenes, as it were. Others say, [[be bold]! BrainyBabe 22:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The name Twain/Clemens debate should be solved, but until then I felt we should go with the name of the article. Certainly, we should avoid calling him Samuel. The reason I don't think the socialism comment is justified is that being anti-capitalist and pro-union does not automatically make one a socialist. He might be sympathetic towards socialism based on these comments, but they do not form a clear link between the two ideas. I understand about the Keller sentence, though something about it still seems off to me. I'll see if I can't think of a new wording as you're correct in saying it provides some historical context. I think my problem is the phrase "neutralized by history". While I don't disagree that his political and social critiques aren't well know, the phrase makes it sound like there was an active attempt to suppress his views. Windmillchaser 03:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy to work out an agreeable Keller sentence here. My phrase "neutralised by history" was not meant to suggest "neutralised by historians" (an active attempt) but a reflection on the passing of time, along the lines of "forgotten by the twentieth century", "unknown in Des Moines", etc.BrainyBabe 07:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A Murder, a Mystery, and a Marriage
Twain was definitely a capitalist -- he invested fortunes in a typesetting machine which he was convinced would make a fortune. Granted it lost a fortune, but he still made the investment. Collect (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Reflections on religion"

Why this book is not mentionned ? It's an interesting book of him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.48.186.156 (talk) 17:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please be bold and add the information to the list of his works at the end of the article. You would need the full title and date of first publication as a minimum, and preferably the publisher and number of pages. BrainyBabe 06:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pen name

I read in my school textbook that the name comes from the term, "On the mark, twain." Unfortunately that was about three years ago. If someone can find a cite for this fact, I'm sure it would answer the question, "Why did this guy choose that name?" hbdragon88 22:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Someone can easily find a reference ('google "mark twain" depth' finds 3 references in the first 3 hits) - odd that it's not in the article. I recall reading that it referred to one of the boatmen taking soundings (measuring depth), the second mark on the line (twain means two) meant that it was deep enough for smooth running - no obstructions Tedickey 22:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's in there, though well down the page in Sec 7 "Pen Names". And yes, you are correct in the origin. :) ArakunemTalk 20:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Small Mistakes

Someone should switch "the right thing to do" to "to do the right thing" in talking about The Adventures of Huck Finn.129.120.244.97 13:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference [57] should probably be moved to the page A Murder, a Mystery, and a Marriage Rknasc 19:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Missing Works

Letter from Hawaii —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.150.120 (talk) 15:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Susy details?

Anybody know when Susy was born and died? --Ragemanchoo (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Clemens&GScnty=1985&GRid=10167320& March 19, 1872 in Elmira - August 18, 1896 in Hartford. Twain could not bear the Hartford house afterwards. http://www.twainquotes.com/headstone.html bears a poem which some attributed to Twain. When he found this out, he had the name of the poet, Robert Richardson, whose poem he had adapted, carved into Suzy's headstone. Collect (talk) 02:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography

There is a section in this article titled "Bibliography". I think that it might be misnamed. My understanding is that a bibliography is a list of the sources from which information was obtained for the article. But this is a list of Twain's writings. Can someone wither correct me, or retitle the section, please. Thanks. --Keeves (talk) 13:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Bibliography" literally means a list of books. For research works, this is commonly a list of references. However, it is quite proper, and common, to use the term to reference the list of an author's works. For online examples, see: http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_biblio.html http://www.brautigan.net/ http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0871800.html http://www.joycebiblio.org/ Rknasc (talk) 15:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

thanks! --Keeves (talk) 03:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prince and Pauper

I'm no expert on Mark Twain, but it seems very strange under the section "Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn" to say that the Prince and the Pauper was Twain's first attempt at fiction, and blame its poor reception on his inexperience at writing fiction, when it was apparently written 5 years after Tom Sawyer, according to the linked articles.151.204.79.230 (talk) 16:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC) Tony Rothman[reply]

Pessimism

In later life, he was deeply pessimistic, as one would be who has seen much of life. A copy of the 1892 edition of The Essays of Arthur Schopenhauer was in his personal library. Are there any indications that Schopenhauer influenced Twain?Lestrade (talk) 01:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

Career Overview

The inclusion of 1601 as one of only two works quoted in this section seem silly. I can think of dozens of his writings that are more important. I have removed it.

POV-pushing

User:Dale-DCX had made edits to various articles that changed the wording "...is an American..." to "...is a...from the United States of America". This sounds very stilted. The user claims that he's disambiguating "American" with other states on the American continent, but this argument is specious. The word "American" in the article already wikilinked to the United States article, so there's no chance of confusion, and as far as I'm aware no citizen of any other country call themselves "American" in normal discourse. They call themselves Canadian, Mexican, Venezuelan, Brazilian, Costa Rican, Argentine, etc. DHN (talk) 21:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You really are not getting it are you? I never mentioned citizens of countries state themselves as American. I stated anyone or anything from America (continent(s)) is American. Nothing to do with individual states. Just as a Briton is a European, a Mexican is an American. No Mexican is going to claim they are from a different continent than America, well, unless they have no clue what continent they are on.
The Wikilink may go to the United States of America, but at face-value it is not clear if Mark Twain is a citizen of the United States of America, or a person from America. Dale-DCX (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ida thunk that this question was thrashed out long ago, but I can't find anything. If Dale really wants to change this, he'll probably have to change 5,000 other articles as well, so why not go through some sort of process? Both POVs are understandable to me, but they are both POVs. As I said, I can't find anything in the rule books. Why not start out with Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies) and see where they send you? Remember WP:AGF Smallbones (talk) 22:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would be more than willing to change all of the articles with this ambiguous element. Well, with some help of course. I should think there is no POV here whatsoever. Just wanting to make things as clear as possible. Dale-DCX (talk) 07:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong. The expression "an American" refers only to a citizen of the United States of America. No one else qualifies. Others may like to think of themselves as Americans, but they're mistaken. If you doubt that, ask the rest of the 305 million citizens of the USA.JGC1010 (talk) 01:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's an extreme view we needn't espouse in this article. I'm all for using the term 'American' to signify 'citizen of the United States of America' as long as a) it's historically accurate within the context and b) it's wikilinked to the United States of America. Note that Mexico's formal name translates to United States of Mexico, so there's another pitfall to avoid... Binksternet (talk) 15:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Citizens of the United States are the only ones who regularly and consistently refer to themselves as Americans. From German to Japanese, the word for American is derivative of American. While from a continental and hemispheric perspective, individuals living in Canda or Colombia, may call themselves American, but those who do fall into a rather pitiful minority. Hands down, the term American is used, and virtually always refers, to citizens of the United States. Lets not ignore common convention and use in exchange for being overly sensitive to a usage that is much less popular, used, or common. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 13:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Extreme or not, it's the real deal. A citizen of the United States of America is an American. Citizens/subjects of any other country don't qualify. If they call themselves Americans, they're wrong. If you don't like it, don't interfere in something you're not.JGC1010 (talk) 18:42, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't assume... You think I'm not American? Strike one. Benjamin Franklin did this country a great deal of good when he started calling all the colonists "Americans". It helped them pull together. Mark Twain writes as an American in the same vein. I have no problem with that, but I also have an objective viewpoint that acknowledges the rest of the world. We have wikilinked 'American' to 'United State', as is appropriate. That's enough for me. Binksternet (talk) 19:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

Samuel Clemens High School in Scertz, TX is also named after this author. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.248.129.126 (talk) 16:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Freemasonry

First of all the citation listed as a 'reference' for his freemasonry is an *original research paper* that is disallowed on wikipedia. Also, if one goes to that page, even the author says: "No paper or biography about this Missouri Freemason would be complete without one of Mark Twain's famous stories. Here is one -- truth or fiction -- you be the judge."

And the second reference is some site dedicated to Freemasonry (hardly neutral on the matter).

So I ask that someone look into this.

cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.108.201.30 (talk) 07:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, about you comment regarding the second citation. That's actually a webpage run by the Freemasons. If one were to cite the US Government's own webpage listing a man by the name of James Garfield as being the 20th President of the United States, would you claim the page is biased since it's not from a neutral source on the matter? Who would be a neutral source? The webpage of the government of another nation? If so, where did they get their information? Some old documentation from the US Government? Oh, but that's not a neutral source is it? Primary sources aren't meant to be neutral. Granted, the Freemasons have this whole reputation - whether it's deserved or not - for secrecy and deception. So why would one believe one of their web pages? Well, quite simply because they ARE the primary source for such matters. Anything else is likely to be original research, short of finding some kind of correspondence from Mark Twain mentioning it. Oh but then Mark Twain isn't a neutral source, since he was involved and is therefore biased on the subject. 24.254.163.150 (talk) 06:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ranks as a FreeMason

The article states that he was initiated into Free Masonry on May 22nd, 1861 and became as Master Mason on July 10th, 1861... Are we really to believe that he went from initiate to master in just under 3 weeks? Seems a little far fetched... I'm not debating that he wasn't a Mason or that he attained those ranks, just I find the time frame of 19 days to be a tad suspicious. 24.254.163.150 (talk) 06:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Master Mason" is generally used for a "Third Degree Mason." The first degrees are quite rapid. 19 days was not unheard of around the time of the Civil War. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05E7DC143BF933A25753C1A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all states some Masonic lodges can grant Master Mason status in a single day. Collect (talk) 02:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vegetarianism?

Does anyone have any citations that back up the assertion that Twain was vegetarian? Citation #54 under "Vivisection and vegetarianism" only mentions his opposition to vivisection, not to eating meat. I've read several biographies, etc. of Twain, and none mention vegetarianism--while it wouldn't be wholly out of character for him, it does seem a bit radical.Edgbeatles (talk) 19:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Twain's letters he writes to his friends and family about meals taken with famous personages and in tale-worthy locations where he's eating all manner of meats including tripe, beefsteak, sausage, bacon and probably more I haven't yet found. It's certainly enough to allow us to delete the word vegetarian from this article. Binksternet (talk) 21:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mysterious Stranger

I think the two mentions of the Mysterious Stranger could be improved by removing the descriptive clauses attached to them. In the first instance--"Of these works, The Mysterious Stranger, which places the presence of Satan, also known as “No. 44,” in various situations where the moral sense of humankind is absent, is perhaps the best known."-- the clauses describing the book are confusing in their vagueness and clumsiness. But more importantly, saying that Satan exists "in various situations where the moral sense of humankind is absent" is not quite true. For one, it leads to reader to believe that this is THE Satan, and not his nephew, and more importantly in the novel it is not the absence of "moral sense" that is the problem, it is the presence. That is, throughout the work, Satan discusses the problematic nature of morality by demonstrating how its presence leads to undesirable consequences. In the Second instance--"The anti-religious The Mysterious Stranger was published in 1916, although there is some scholarly debate as to whether Twain actually wrote the most familiar version of this story"--the claim that scholars debate whether or not Twain wrote the piece, is false, though it is clear what the author meant to say. The debate does not concern whether or not he wrote the material, but how it was edited from the three manuscripts. No one doubts he wrote the material; it is merely a question of the nature of the editing process. This would be a trivial concern, except that as the sentence reads (within the context of the paragraph on his religious views) it implies that the doubt of authorship might counteract the work's anti-religious contents, that such contents are from another source. That is not true; and, moreover, such anti-religious sentiments are consistent with much of his work, especially his later writings. So, I think those two sentences should be changed. It would not be hard to do; simply remove the descriptive clauses and the sentences work fine. I am not allowed to do so as the page is semi-protected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.81.84.43 (talk) 01:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Racism

What about his racism ? See s:Roughing It/Chapter XIX. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.193.70.190 (talk) 13:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.11.24.68 (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Twain paid the costs at Yale for a black student. Hardly the act of a racist. http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/senate/judiciary/sh102-1084pt2/257-258.pdf Collect (talk) 02:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Practically everybody living in the 19th century would be considered a racist by modern standards; it doesn't make sense to single out and describe a specific person as a racist, however, unless they were more racist than the average background level for their time and place. Twain, as Collect points out, was rather less so. --Jim Henry (talk) 11:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bartlett's quotations

I've heard that Twain was not in Bartlett's quoations until after his death. Does anyone know how to verify this? RJFJR (talk) 20:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm not sure this really matters for Wikipedia, but Twain is represented in the 10th edition which came out in 1914 (four years after his death). The previous edition was released much earlier in 1891 and in my quick search online and in the library in which I work, I haven't been able to find a copy of it. However, though he was famous by 1891, I wouldn't really be surprised if he wasn't represented in that edition, as much of his most famous work was at that time less than 15 years old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.81.84.43 (talk) 00:05, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Native Americans

The given reference emphasises that we don't know Twain's actual views on the topic Tedickey (talk) 21:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This so called "quote" is undoubtedly Mark Twain's assertion of the common thoughts and notions of the day and was undoubted taken by the very people he despised and turned into a quote and to being presented as his own feelings regarding Native Americans, as he so often speaks in second and third person. -- Rather than the norm for the day, which he was not. -- There is no chance whatsoever that this is an actual quote of Mark Twain's true feelings or anything he said except possibly as a demonstration of those around him! Something like the swell hearted patriots and there saving the lives of those they slaughtered. -- Tom Bunnell—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.127.171.249 (talk) 18:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the above is the case, why not find any of the other evidence in support of his liberal views towards Native Americans and expand this section? I do not say that you are right or wrong on the subject; I simply suggest that, rather than simply disputing the neutrality of the section, you add research to clarify the matter. Srajan01 (talk) 08:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Twain's essay (NOT FICTION) entitled "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offences" has numerous examples of Mr. Twain respecting Native Americans; indeed, Mr. Twain gives Native Americans considerable more respect than the subject of the essay. This is but one sample:

"Did the Indians notice that there was going to be a tight squeeze there? Did they notice that they could make money by climbing down out of that arched sapling and just stepping aboard when the ark scraped by? No, other Indians would have noticed these things, but Cooper's Indians never notice anything. Cooper thinks they are marvelous creatures for noticing, but he was almost always in error about his Indians. There was seldom a sane one among them."

So, not only does Mr. Twain explicitly state that most Native American's are sane, he also suggests they are much more intelligent than Mr. Cooper gives them credit for in his novel. The fact that this agitated Mr. Twain is a testament to his fundamental sense of fairness and is reinforced by many of Mr. Twain's quotes regarding humanity.

There are passages in Roughing It very harsh toward one particular Indian tribe, but at the same time pretty respectful toward most or all of the other tribes he'd had any experience with. And a later passage where he writes about some Indians leaving an area ahead of a flood, and being disbelieved when they explained why, by white men who regretted it a few days later when they were trapped in a house on high ground by the same flood the Indians had predicted. --Jim Henry (talk) 11:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-capitalist?

I'm going to remove that quote again. Twain certainly identified with the poor and the workers, but to say he was an "anti-capitalist" seems to be going way too far; to be concerned for social justice does not necessitate opposing the capitalist system. The source for this is an article in the "International Socialist Review" ([1]), which is clearly a biased source in making such a statement. Much of the article provides valuable quotes that back up Twain's anti-imperialist stance and his sympathies for the oppressed, but there is no evidence presented that he was an "anti-capitalist." Simple attribution isn't enough for a claim to be made in WP; the source has to be reliable, as well. While I think that WP:RS would indicate that the International Socialist Review is not a reliable source at all, at the least it is not "third-party": it has a stake in the information being presented (i.e., it is advantageous to present Mark Twain, a popular and respected figure and thinker, as a socialist). No? Korossyl (talk) 05:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm no expert, but I'm sympathetic to your view that calling Twain "anti-capitalist" seems far-fetched. But it's not just that that article calls him anti-capitalist, but they have at least one quote from him which seems to back that up. Now, while they're certainly not going to be a great source for neutral views, I don't see any reason to believe that they made up the quotes.
Anyway, maybe there's a better way to say it than the current article phrasing, but I don't like the idea of getting rid of something like that because it "feels wrong" when it's attributed. Cretog8 (talk) 07:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, what quote? I looked through the article (searched for quotation marks, too), and while there were a lot on the anti-imperialist side, I didn't find any at all for him being an anti-capitalist. I could've missed one, easy... Twain being an "outspoken anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist" is from the article's writer itself (fourth paragraph, second line), and I don't think the claim should be taken at face value coming from this particular source. If there were any Twain quotes, though, I'd be all in favor of leaving it in; I just didn't see any that backed up anti-capitalism. Korossyl (talk) 14:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I searched for "capital", which worked better than searching for quotes in this case because it was a block-quote:

Who are the oppressors? The few: the King, the capitalist, and a handful of other overseers and superintendents. Who are the oppressed? The many: the nations of the earth; the valuable personages; the workers; they that make the bread that the soft-handed and idle eat.

Cretog8 (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yikes, and I was sure I had looked through the block quotes, too. Well, that's a pretty unassailable argument, there... I think the best thing would be to actually add that into the article; there are a number of quotes already sprinkled around there. He was quite clearly an anti-capitalist, then, but I think the point would be better made if the evidence was presented upfront, no? Thanks for the info! Korossyl (talk)

22:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Twain invested large amounts of money in a typesetting machine with the goal of making money. He also invested in book publishing. By any measure he was a capitalist, albeit not too successful at it. His wife's family was unabashedly capitalist, making their money in railroads. Collect (talk) 02:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Sequel?

In 1872, Twain published a second piece of travel literature, Roughing It, as a semi-sequel to Innocents.

Shouldn't this be "prequel", if we're going to assert any such relationship between the books? --Jim Henry (talk) 11:16, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sit by Me Statue of Mark Twain on Bench

I think the artist should be given credit in this article. His name is Gary Price. He lives in Springville UT.

I LOVE this statue. We have one by the library in our town and I frequently just sit beside him. The book he is reading The Adventures of Huck Finn

I hope you can add this piece of information to your article. ~AnnieofBlueGables 30 Oct 2008

If you can provide a reliable source verifying that Mr. Price is indeed the artist, then his name might be added to the caption below the picture of the statue ("...by Gary Price"). There needs to be a verifiable source, however, not original research.--JayJasper (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The version where he's reading a book isn't verified at the Gary Lee Price webpage. There, it appears that Twain is standing behind a park bench along with Becky Thatcher at the side of the bench and Tom Sawyer who is sitting. The style is very similar to "Sit By Me" but not enough to prove authorship just from appearance. The Houston elementary school statue must have a plaque that can be photographed; if it includes the name of the sculptor that would be enough evidence. Binksternet (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Aphorisms

The text of the opening says "He is also known for his quotations."

That's not quite the right word. When others quote his words, they're quotations. When Clemens himself made them, they were aphorisms. He wasn't (usually) quoting anybody else. --82.18.14.143 (talk) 03:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And many things attributed to him, were said by someone else. My rule: "If you say something sufficiently witty and clever, someone else will immediately attribute it to Mark Twain." Collect (talk) 14:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

influence by Cervantes

A quick google around found only random comments of the sort found in student's term papers (and blogs) - no reliable sources. Also, the twainquotes.com url seems out of place here, since there's no indication on the webpage how it relates to the "influenced by" section. Tedickey (talk) 21:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree 100%. I've taken Cervantes out, along with the tags and the dubious reference. Binksternet (talk) 21:39, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


China controversy

The use of the term "Mark Twain China Missionary" etc. is not supported by any reliable source.Collect (talk) 21:47, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not interested in contending for the the term, and am open to another short-hand way of referring to it.(smjwalsh (talk) 14:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]

The article about to the person sitting in darkness does not mention Ament at all. Collect (talk) 21:47, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see what your problem has been. The cite given previously was to an expurgated version. The unexpurgated version of Twain's article "To the Person Sitting in Darkness", 25% of the article refers to the Indemnities Controversy. Ament is mentioned specifically by name 8 times - 3 times in newspaper articles quoted in full by Twain, and another 5 times by Twain himself.(smjwalsh (talk) 14:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]

There is, if anything, a bit of coatracking going on. The arguments about the missionaries included a great many people, not just Mark Twain. Collect (talk) 21:47, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not following your argument here. Sorry. Other people certainly became involved in the controversy - but it was Twain and Ament who are both central to the controversy. It was Twain's initial February 1901 article in the North Atlantic Review that fanned the controversy into flame, and his subsequent April 1901 follow-up article "To My Missionary Critics", which references Ament in the subtitle and again repeatedly in the article, that kept the controversy alive. Almost all Twain biographies consulted reference Ament and this controversy, as it is one of the first public attacks on Christianity by Twain published.(smjwalsh (talk) 14:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]
The article is not primarily about the Philippine-American War, but rather is a polemic against imperialism (check Twain scholars referenced in both Ament and Controversy articles), using the situation in China, South Africa and the Philippines as examples. The missionaries (specifically Ament and his colleagues) are seen as agents of imperialism.(smjwalsh (talk) 14:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Also, it looks like the material properly belongs in the anti-imperialism section, not in the religion section in the first place. I shall trust you shall move the material to the appropriate section. Thanks! Collect (talk) 14:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would have no major objections, inasmuch as Twain himself primarily saw it as an example of imperialism, but the negative reactions to his initial article were primarily from religious sources, and his subsequent article was almost exclusively focused on the morality of looting, indemnities and the missionaries' leadership. So, while the origins were (in Twain's mind) anti-imperialistic, the controversy quickly became religious in nature. Again, I am not sufficiently vested in whetre in the article it should be placed.(smjwalsh (talk) 15:10, 26 December 2008 (UTC)).[reply]
Anent this, I would think "China missionary indemnity controversy" would be a reasonable name for an article (capitalizing every word implies that it is a title in common usage, which it is not), and add the comments of the others who were involved (Twain was far from the only person to be sure). Collect (talk) 15:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the context of the Twain WP article, your suggestion would be fine, as long as there was a link to the Controversy article
However, outside the context of the Twain WP article, removal of any reference to Twain would make the title less helpful. Your suggested title would encompass far more than the article currently covers. It would involve the Roman Catholic Church and others. In fact, it would be a subset of the whole indemnities debate within the context of the aftermath of the Boxer Uprising.

I would prefer his theological discourses be found under "religion" if anyone can actually come up with a guaranteed correct version of what he meant <g>. Thanks! Collect (talk) 15:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


mark twain is one of the best known authors and has written a lot of touching and meaningfull stories. he has changed my ways in many ways through him and his ways. he is my great great great great grandpapa. i love and miss you granddaddyy.