Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tothwolf/Evidence

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk) Case clerks: MBisanz (Talk) & Dougweller (Talk) Drafting arbitrator: Wizardman (Talk)

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Create your own section and do not edit in anybody else's section. Please limit your main evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs and keep responses to other evidence as short as possible. A short, concise presentation will be more effective; posting evidence longer than 1000 words will not help you make your point. Over-long evidence that is not exceptionally easy to understand (like tables) will be trimmed to size or, in extreme cases, simply removed by the Clerks without warning - this could result in your important points being lost, so don't let it happen. Stay focused on the issues raised in the initial statements and on diffs which illustrate relevant behavior.

It is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff in question, or to a short page section; links to the page itself are insufficient. Never link to a page history, an editor's contributions, or a log for all actions of an editor (as those will have changed by the time people click on your links), although a link to a log for a specific article or a specific block log can be useful. Please make sure any page section links are permanent. See simple diff and link guide.

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see the talk page. If you think another editor's evidence is a misrepresentation of the facts, cite the evidence and explain how it is incorrect within your own section. Please do not try to re-factor the page or remove evidence presented by others. If something is put in the wrong place, leave it for the Arbitrators or Clerks to move.

Arbitrators may analyze evidence and other assertions at /Workshop. /Workshop provides for comment by parties and others as well as Arbitrators. After arriving at proposed principles, findings of fact or remedies, Arbitrators vote at /Proposed decision. Only Arbitrators (and clerks, when clarification on votes is needed) may edit the proposed decision page.

Evidence presented by JBsupreme

Hope I'm doing this right. I have no evidence to present, and I don't care to participate in this process. Tothwolf has been making bad faith accusations towards me (accusing me of bad faith, or collusion, or what have you) and none of it is true. While I do have my faults, they are not to do with him and I do not care to waste my time on this process as I feel his claims are invalid. If the arbcom disagrees or finds fault in my actions toward Tothwolf then so be it. I will simply find another way to spend my time. That is all. JBsupreme (talk) 03:42, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Miami33139

I wish to primarily bring evidence after October 5, 2009. I would certainly defend my actions before then, because I did not target Tothwolf, but after that date, I took a wikibreak of one week. On my return I very specifically and studiously avoided any engagement with him.

Just One Diff

I have offered repeatedly to leave the project if anyone can show how this edit harasses Tothwolf. My minor edit, separated by eight months to a minor edit in another section by Tothwolf.

Detailed example of false claims

Harassment claim, October 14, 2009

Tothwolf claimed I harassed him on October 14, 2009, [1]. This is less than 24 hours after my wikibreak.

This is my edit history in the day leading up to that accusation, [2]

I do not see any evidence of stalking Tothwolf in those contributions. This is where our paths cross.

Out of twelve deletion discussions, our paths cross twice. On neither did I address Tothwolf.

I came to this discussion ten days before Tothwolf did, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/VisualFlow.

I came to this discussion one day after Tothwolf did. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WAMP. I did not come to this conversation following Tothwolf. I gave a quite complicated response here which shows that I am not entering discussions just to tweak him. Tothwolf claims this as harassment. [3]

There are four articles on the general subject of IRC where we also cross paths. In all cases but one, our edits are separated by several months, ZNC (IRC bouncer) where I asked for speedy deletion of a recreated material THEN Tothwolf had an admin reclaim it and userfied [4].

I see no stalking or harassment in any of my contribs leading up to Tothwolf's claim of harassment on October 14.

Tothwolf throws out accusations based on people, not content

Tothwolf often throws out accusations and sometimes threats. It is quite peculiar in his manner that he seems to believe people in normal conversation are insulting him.

• [5]
• [6]
• [7]

The period starting onward of 3 November brought out the worst in Tothwolf, repeatedly being the first to make attacks, accusations, threats, and generally being disruptive.

• [8] *this one is very interesting
• [9]
• [10] *also interesting, after being called out as "sounding paranoid" for basing the above Deletion Review comment on people "out to get him" he left this ramble on a user talk of someone often sympathetic to him.

This entire Articles for Deletion discussion is interesting. I felt this AfD nom was a little POINTy, but that would be obvious to anyone reading it. Such things can be closed without the kind of drama Tothwolf created.

• [11], tossing out a long rant that the nomination was an attack on him personally
• [12], my own contribution to this discussion which expressed an opinion that was neither keep or delete. I did not address either the POINTy nom or Tothwolf's rant, though I did note that there were ownership issues of the article, I did so indirectly without attaching a name.
• [13], my comment was met with flaming
• [14], to which a 3rd party asked Tothwolf to stop flaming
• [15], Tothwolf has to fix his personal attack, because the things he flamed me for were done by someone else. He believes that we are the same editor (as shown in other diffs where he calls us puppets).

I note here, that I did not respond to these flames at all. I commented on the comment of the article and did not respond when attacked.

• [16], Tothwolf flames the person who asked him to stop flaming

Tothwolf's attention returned to a DRV where he was called paranoid for his rant at another user.

• [17], I made a simple comment that I believed a user article should be strongly sourced before returning to main. I had nominated this article for deletion 6 weeks earlier, and noticed when it went to DRV from my Watchlist, and from watching DRV.
• [18], Tothwolf attacks me.

I didn't respond.

• [19], Tothwolf flames me again!
• [20], a neutral admin tried to reduce the drama
• [21], [22], Tothwolf edit warred to make sure his flaming attacks were visible to everyone, note the edit summaries while revert warring.

Tothwolf brings extremely strange evidence to ANI

Our issues went to ANI.

[23] Tothwolfs primary response includes accusations of sockpuppetry, and he provides six diffs which he claims as proof of his harassment.

Tothwolf says: Here are a few links that demonstrate the continued Wikistalking the moment I touch anything outside of the Template namespace: [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29]

NONE of these diffs show wikistalking behavior. That sixth diff was particularly interesting to me. An article called Billy was deleted, I removed backlinks in other articles [30] [31].

My third removal, of a backlink after article deletion [32] could have prevented this case from coming to Arbcom. It is plainly obvious, from the context of my other edits, to the article history, that this article has nothing to do with Tothwolf. He edited the article eight months before me, and made a minor edit to a different section. When asked to explain how this harassed hi Tothwolf posted more flaming, [33]

This diff proves several things:

1. Tothwolf believes he owns any article where he has ever edited. It is impossible to edit around this kind of ownership, I would have to check several years of article history before making minor and routine edits to avoid this.
2. Tothwolf really is paranoid. He claims I dug this out of his contribution history in order to harass him. These kinds of strange claims create a disruptive editing environment.

It also showed that administrators are not actually investigating issues. I asked, countless times, for anyone to show me how this diff harassed Tothwolf. [34] I offered to leave the project if someone in the thread showed me how that diff harassed Tothwolf.

When Tothwolf finally replied to that diff, all he offered was more claims of harassment. There was such an obvious showing in that thread that Tothwolf has obvious detachment from a fact based investigation. This could not have harassed Tothwolf (even assuming I dug it out of his history, which I didn't, this edit doesn't harass him!), no adminstrator ever answered the claim on the merit.

Tothwolf made personal attacks during my absence

• [35]

Tothwolf makes his "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!" cry to anyone who thinks would be sympathetic, on some barely related issue

Wolves shouldn't cry wolf.

• [36]
• [37]
• [38], this also contains a direct personal attack, calling people "meatpuppets" which, in the localized slang of wikipedia, is an attack.
• [39]
• [40]
• [41]
• [42]

It just gets stranger

• [43], this attack was ignored.
• Tothwolf says "Yo Sandstein, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but I had something to do with this drama before it even existed."
• And some how thinks it relevant to this discussion.

Tothwolf has a history of claiming victim to other editors long before me

Other editors

COI/Will BeBack

• [44] Will shows frustration at failure to answer simple questions regarding Tothwolf and a potential COI.
• [45] Will tells Tothwolf again on his talk page to deal openly with the potential COI issue, but Tothwolf has insisted on moving the discussion to Will's talk page.

Opinion of Mikeay

• [46]
• User:Theserialcomma/Tothwolf, Mikaey compiled an evidence document indicating Tothwold should have been on admins radars for civility violations in June or earlier (which is long before I ever came along).

Yworo

• [47]

WQA

• Tothwolf just frustrates everybody by claiming he is the victim, [48]

ANI

• [49] (not involving any other parties in this dispute but Tothwolf) ANI initiated by non-involved editor to dispute, discussion eventually centers on Tothwolf's inability to AGF and his false claims of harassment

Reply @Tothwolf's evidence

I won't reply in depth, but ask anyone interested to ask me on any statement of Tothwolf you find interesting. The majority of evidence is stale, before my wikibreak. The table is flawed (where Tothwolf is not even involved in half of it, and barely peripherally involved in most of the rest. I think it does show, as explained in #Just One Diff that Tothwolf thinks extremely tangential confluences harass him personally which he then lashes out at. I am open to questioning. Miami33139 (talk) 17:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Tothwolf

Behavioural issues with Theserialcomma

Issues with Theserialcomma began on May 26, 2009 shortly after the uproar over the 3rd YTCracker AfD (related AN/I discussion).

Theserialcomma nominated The Digital Gangster LP for deletion, which I felt was very pointy and disruptive given the disruption and edit warring with the YTCracker article and AfD (in which Theserialcomma had played a part during the article's 3rd AfD). Theserialcomma was unhappy with my comments where I pointed this out. [50] [51] [52] [53] (Note that contrary to their statement otherwise, they nominated The Digital Gangster LP for AfD after [54] YTCracker was nominated for deletion. [55])

Theserialcomma began wikihounding me about 5 minutes after they made the above linked comment in the The Digital Gangster LP AfD, in which they claimed "either you are purposely lying, or you are mistaken".

They found that I had edited Eggdrop and made this edit where they removed material from the article in an attempt to bait me into edit warring with them. [56] About 5 minutes after that they made a series of edits to Internet Relay Chat flood [57] which I had been editing, their last edit including an edit summary which appears to be a threat to nominate it for deletion (they knew TenPoundHammer had just withdrawn an AfD nomination for the article). They then made a series of edits to TenPoundHammer's talk page which included a threat of a block against me. [58] [59] [60] [61]

MuZemike restored the section of text Theserialcomma removed from Eggdrop [62] and said to discuss the issue on the talk page. I attempted to add references [63] Theserialcomma removed my changes [64] and still refused to discuss the issue on the talk page. I again attempted to move things to the talk page [65] and I undid Theserialcomma's removal of the references [66] and stated in the edit summary to discuss it on the talk page. Theserialcomma made this reply on the talk page (which included a veiled "COI" threat), [67] removed the references from the article again, [68] and then removed the entire section from the article. [69]

It was at that point where Theserialcomma began attacking me with false "COI" accusations. [70]

When the discussion on the article's talk page [71] didn't go the way Theserialcomma wanted, they opened a COI/N [72] and SPI [73] against me, [74] which seems to be a tactic Theserialcomma sometimes uses against people with whom they have a disagreement. Theserialcomma also dug around on several webservers looking for something to use against me (webserver logs have been provided to ArbCom). I found this particularly disturbing given Theserialcomma's statement when they first initiated the COI/N discussion which they referred as an "Outing hypothetical question". I was not even aware of the COI/N discussion that Theserialcomma had started until after Will Beback left a comment on my talk page. [75]

Contrary to Theserialcomma's statement claiming/implying that I was "the lead developer of a certain type of software", I wasn't. As explained in detail in the COI/N discussion I've contributed to that project and many other open source software projects over the years. I do not feel that my edits to the Eggdrop article violated the COI guideline as my focus has always been and continues to be to improve Wikipedia. I think the edit history on the Eggdrop article and my contribution history should make this point quite clear but I'm addressing this issue here directly because it is closely linked to the wikihounding behaviour from Theserialcomma. While I can understand how Will Beback may have been concerned given what Theserialcomma initiated on COI/N, I still think it would have created a lot less drama with Theserialcomma had he approached me without the initial presupposition of wrongdoing.

Even after being told to "disengage" by Will Beback [76] Theserialcomma removed another reference and the html comments that referred to the Eggdrop talk page. [77] [78]

They still did not disengage and continued to wikistalk my edits. Almost exactly one week later they made this edit [79] after I removed a link spam from the Kickban article. [80] They then initiated an AfD for MIRCStats. [81] (AfD) This continued with edits to the XiRCON article minutes later. [82] and after I added a reference [83] they made this threat [84] and then removed the reference and the text it supported [85]

Prior to the above, Theserialcomma had never touched an IRC-related article, it was only after the YTCracker related AfDs that they began targeting articles that I had worked on. Theserialcomma has a history of this sort of behaviour and has filed false or abusive SPI, COI/N, AN/I, 3RR, etc reports against other editors in the past with whom they had disagreements, sometimes getting them blocked. They also have a history of edit warring, and while they are careful to avoid going over 3RR, they are certainly still violating the spirit of 3RR.

This behaviour started up again after it had paused for awhile when Miami33139 and JBsupreme began mass prod/AfDing articles as detailed on AN/I here and in the table below. Even during the RFAR for this case and after making a statement, Theserialcomma initiated an AfD for XiRCON, [86] which would appear to be yet another baiting attempt.

Theserialcomma made accusations on Miami33139's talk page claiming I was canvassing when I attempted to bring the wikihounding and mass-XfD behaviour of Miami33139 and JBsupreme to the attention of several administrators. [87]

Theserialcomma challenged the closing admin on his close of the Comparison of Internet Relay Chat clients AfD that JBsupreme had initiated [88] and then went on to attempt to stir things up with JBsupreme [89] about an hour after the closing admin answered Theserialcomma and said he would not reopen the AfD. [90]

Theserialcomma has repeatedly attempted to stir things up with Mikaey when I've started AN/I discussions. [91] and had been trying for quite awhile to get access to a deleted subpage in Mikaey's userspace. [92] During one of the AN/I discussions, they also brought Miami33139 into this effort. [93] Despite all this, Theserialcomma was undeterred and continued what clearly seems to be forum shopping behaviour [94] until someone finally undeleted that material.

A search of some of the noticeboards turns up dispute after dispute between Theserialcomma and other editors. Some examples include: [95] [96] [97] [98] [99] [100] [101] [102] [103] [104] [105] [106] [107] [108] [109] [110] [111] [112]

Other more recent behaviour is linked in the table below.

Behavioural issues with Miami33139

Issues with Miami33139 seem to have begun in September 2009 where Miami33139 began wikihounding me after I tagged a number of WP:COMP related articles from Category:Proposed deletion with the {{WikiProject Computing}} banner template so that the Article alerts bot would pick them up. [113] Miami33139 had previously been mass-prodding/AfDing media player software articles (pretty much exclusively) for some reason. [114]

The first interaction I am aware of related to this issue is the revert [115] of my removal of an invalid CSD tag [116] and then RFD nomination [117] of a redirect that Miami33139 has admitted to finding from my contributions. [118] [119] After they saw where I had reverted vandalism on NexIRC [120] they nominated it for AfD. [121]

From there this pattern continues and includes !voting in AfDs I participated in just to !vote the opposite [122] as well as getting involved in AfDs that I tagged for the WP:COMP deletion workflow, all of these also clearly being taken directly from my contributions (see the table below for links). Miami33139 then went on to begin mass prodding and AfDing a large number of other filesystem articles. [123] [124] [125] [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131]

On September 25th Miami33139 initiated a mass-AfD/XfD campaign against articles I had previously edited and specifically began to target IRC-related articles. See the table below for links and details.

Prior to all of this, Miami33139 did not work on IRC-related articles or participate in many computing-related AfDs at all. They focused almost exclusively on mass-prodding/AfDing multimedia software articles and bulk removing Ed Fitzgerald's contributions from other articles. Since initiating that mass-AfD/XfD campaign, Miami33139 has attempted to become more active with computing-related AfDs which appears to be an attempt to have some of the other behaviour blend into their contribs.

Miami33139 has been bulk removing Ed Fitzgerald's contributions using some sort of automated tool [132] [133] [134] that they've written. [135] LessHeard vanU also expressed concern over Miami33139 bulk removing Ed Fitzgerald's contributions in one of the AN/I discussions. [136] One example of 100s, if not 1000s of these removals by Miami33139 is: [137] Related discussions: [138] [139] After all of the AN/I discussions and questions, Miami33139 added a ton of stuff to their monobook.js [140] in what appears to be an attempt to hide the fact that they are using some sort of Greasemonkey script that they wrote to bulk remove Ed Fitzgerald's contributions.

I've tried to communicate and reason with Miami33139 as well as JBsupreme to no avail. [141] [142] [143] [144] [145]

In frustration, I've twice warned Miami33139 to stop wikistalking my edits, but it has had no effect. [146] [147] The second time, Miami33139 simply removed the warning [148] but added it back [149] after Theserialcomma added another comment to Miami33139's talk page [150] and then claimed that they were not "stalking" me. [151]

Miami33139 seems to think that their behaviour is somehow normal and acceptable [152] and they continued to be abusive towards other editors in XfD discussions. [153]

After being told to disengage, [154] Miami33139 attempted to recruit JBsupreme to further their agenda. [155] Despite again being repeatedly told to disengage, Miami33139 has continued their harassment towards me and has continued to wikistalk my edits. [156] [157]

Some of the more recent wikihounding behaviour includes [158] [159] [160]

Miami33139 continues to make personal attacks, even in the latest AN/I which they initiated, this time calling me "paranoid and delusional" [161] and attacking me with claims of WP:OWN. [162] Previously they have attacked me with claims of WP:COI. [163]

They have also repeatedly made attempts at trolling and baiting. [164] [165]

Miami33139 made a claim of have been "walking on eggshells" [166] although if someone were to look at both of our contribution histories, they would see that I've mainly been avoiding the article namespace as of late and have instead been focusing on template projects because of the wikihounding and harassment that I experience when I try to do article or XfD work.

Miami33139 is not above making false or misleading claims [167] [168] [169] in XfD discussions in their attempts to discredit other editors (see the table below for more).

Miami33139 nominated WeeChat for AfD [170] making claims such as "contains only self-published sources", while knowing that the article contained non-trivial, independent, 3rd party sources. (See the table below for additional examples.) While technically not canvassing as defined per WP:CANVASS, these notifications [171] [172] [173] would certainly appear to be an attempt by Miami33139 to make sure this article was deleted.

When an article is kept at AfD and Miami33139 does not agree with the outcome, [174] Miami33139 will tag the article [175] and then often gut the article [176] in violation of the WP:PRESERVE section of the editing policy. Their edit summary in this case is misleading as the article contained no sources.

Miami33139 does not seem to care about the actual content of these articles and appears to be solely focused on deletion at any cost. This was made even more clear with Ii (IRC client) where Miami33139 prodded the article, [177] it was then vandalised, [178] and Miami33139 just let it sit there in its vandalised state. Miami33139 monitors articles they've prodded so that they can immediately AfD them if they are deprodded (see the table below) so they were well aware of the vandalism to this article.

Even during the RFAR and evidence processes for this case, Miami33139 has continued to prod, AfD, or otherwise target articles that they located via my past contributions. See the table below for links.

Behavioural issues with JBsupreme

Issues with JBsupreme appear to have begun in late September 2009, possibly with the Parchive AfD, Parchive DRV, SmartPAR AfD, QuickPar AfD, or Joe's Own Editor AfD. It is difficult pin down an exact date but after these discussions, JBsupreme began wikihounding my edits, became heavily involved in the September 25th to October 1st mass-AfD/XfD campaign that Miami33139 had initiated, and began to similarly prod and mass-AfD similar articles after attempting to mass-CSD a number of the same articles. See the table below for links.

My edits were not the only ones JBsupreme wikihounded during this time period. He also initiated an AfD for Notepad++ [179] which had previously been edited by 83.254.210.47, whom had also been rather active in many of the AfDs related to the mass-AfD'd articles. A query with the wikistalk.py toolserver tool [180] also turned up these two otherwise unexplainable overlaps. [181] [182] Shortly after, 83.254.210.47 left this comment on his talk page [183] and then struck a number of his AfD !votes before posting this message [184] to his talk page stating that he was retiring from the English Wikipedia due to abuse of the AfD process.

Miami33139 made a post to JBsupreme's talk page when the subject of a topic ban came up in one of the AN/I discussions, [185] to which JBsupreme replied with indifference and further claims of conflict of interest. [186]

The wikihounding and disruptive behaviour from JBsupreme for which I had previously been a target seemed to pause for a short while with the exception of [187] until November 4th when JBsupreme again began to AfD articles which I had edited, although this time at a much slower pace. On November 10th JBsupreme added this [188] !vote to a CfD where I had been participating.

The mass-AfD/XfD patterns including those that overlap with Miami33139 and Theserialcomma as well as the more recent AfD nominations are included in the table below.

JBsupreme often does not use edit summaries when nominating articles for deletion or when making edits others might find controversial. He has been cautioned and warned of this previously but it does not seem to have curbed the behaviour. JBsupreme also has a long history of violating several policies and guidelines when interacting with others (including WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE). His edit summaries while reverting other users (when he uses them) have often contained vulgar language in all caps. Some examples include: [189] [190] [191] [192] [193] [194] [195] [196] [197] [198] [199] [200] [201] [202] [203] [204] [205] [206] [207] [208] [209] [210] [211] [212] [213] [214] [215] [216] [217] [218] [219] [220] [221] [222] [223] [224] [225] (Note that this in no way a complete or comprehensive list, this is a sample taken from JBsupreme's last ~5000 edits from approximately late November 2008 to present.)

While I completely understand the frustration and the need to revert vandalism, especially with BLP articles, the language and aggression towards others is clearly inappropriate. Not all of these reverts or content removals by JBsupreme are removals of vandalism either, some appear to be well meaning editors who simply do not fact check or fail to provide a source which JBsupreme considers adequate.

I also found JBsupreme's actions on October 21st troubling. He started a second AfD for the high profile Colorado balloon incident article [226] only 3 days after the first AfD was closed as no consensus. The second AfD was speedily closed by admin Shii but JBsupreme attempted to revert the close. [227] Also see [228] [229] [230] For some bizarre reason, Miami33139 removed Shii's questions from JBsupreme's talk page [231] after Shii attempted to resolve things with JBsupreme. When Shii queried Miami33139 about the removal from JBsupreme's talk page [232] Miami33139 made this reply: [233]

Timeline and collusion

The table below documents a large pattern of wikihounding and collusion from Miami33139, JBsupreme, and Theserialcomma.

With the exception now of XiRCON, all of the IRC-related AfDs included in the table below were initiated solely by Miami33139 and JBsupreme, with Theserialcomma participating in some. It also appears that my preemptive tagging of the associated LSR templates to allow for monitoring by the Article alerts bot to prevent a repeat of what Miami33139 attempted with the rxIRC TFD seemed to lead these editors straight to the articles, where they began to prod and AfD them en masse.

The Computer software-related AfDs include discussions initiated by Miami33139, JBsupreme, and other members of the community. For the discussions where I participated that were initiated by other members of the community, Miami33139, JBsupreme, and/or Theserialcomma followed my edits to those AfDs. These editors generally seemed to either follow my !vote edit to the AfD or go straight to the AfD when they saw that I had edited the article's talk page when I added the WP:COMP template for the Article alerts bot.

The major intersections between Miami33139's and JBsupreme's edits are almost exclusively either IRC-related article or XfD discussions, or other XfDs where I had participated. [234]

While comparing JBsupreme's contributions with wikistalk.py against other usernames (both 'keeps' and 'deletes') from the AfD discussions linked in the tables below, and after weeding out false positives, I noticed a number of unusual patterns which when compared with the other results seem statistically improbable. I do not feel that I am qualified to draw any major conclusions based solely on what I saw in these results but someone with more experience in this area probably should do some additional checking.

I've spent a substantial amount of time working to expand, merge, categorise, link, and add references to articles related to technology, computing, and internet communications, including IRC. The actions of these three editors as documented in the table below after they discovered I had worked on these articles appear to be meant solely for harassment purposes, or to otherwise disrupt my own editing and content improvement efforts, and do not help to improve Wikipedia. As mentioned in the sections above, even during the September 25th to October 1st mass-AfD/XfD campaign initiated by Miami33139 and JBsupreme I attempted to encourage these editors to work on improving some of this content, but I found that to be a pointless exercise as their harassment motives became more and more obvious to both myself and others during the XfD discussions.

Timeline and collusion

Date (UTC) Article and discussion Miami33139 JBsupreme Theserialcomma Tothwolf IRC-related 04:18 NexIRC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [235] (LSR tag) [236] 17:29 Psotnic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [237] [238] (tag) [239] 17:37 ZNC (IRC bouncer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [240] [241] 17:38 Bip IRC Proxy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [242] [243] 17:42 PsyBNC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [244] [245] [246] 17:43 Psyced (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [247] [248] 17:51 KoolChat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (prod) [249] (redir) [250] 21:26 Template:Latest stable software release/rxIRC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (TFD discussion) (TFD nom) [251] [252] (CSD G8) [253] [254] [255] [256] 22:21 Quiet Internet Pager (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [257] (prod) [258] [259] (LSR tag) [260] 06:33 BitchX (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [261] (AfD nom) [262] [263] (LSR tag) [264] 07:58 Coolsmile (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [265] (AfD nom) [266] (LSR tag) [267] 09:02 ERC (IRC client) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [268] [269] (CSD A7) [270] 15:07 Vortec IRC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [271] (AfD nom) [272] (CSD A7) [273] (prod) [274] (LSR tag) [275] 15:10 Naim (chat program) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [276] [277] (CSD A7) [278] (prod) [279] 15:15 Bersirc (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [280] [281] (CSD A7) [282] (prod) [283] (LSR tag) [284] 15:31 Rcirc (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [285] (prod) [286] [287] (prod2) [288] 17:34 Bottler (IRC client) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [289] (prod) [290] [291] 17:36 Pork client (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [292] (prod) [293] [294] 06:55 Snak (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [295] (AfD nom) [296] (LSR tag) [297] 06:57 Template:Latest stable software release/ccorp-irc (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (prod) [298] (LSR tag) [299] 07:23 Konversation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [300] (AfD nom) [301] (CSD A7) [302] (prod) [303] (LSR tag) [304] 07:33 LeetIRC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (RFD discussion) [305] (RFD nom) [306] (LSR tag) [307] 07:50 Jini (IRC client) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [308] (AfD nom) [309] (LSR tag) [310] 23:15 Sleep (programming language) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (prod) [311] 23:16 Pisg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (redir) [312] [313] 23:19 NetZ Script Pro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (prod) [314] 23:25 Versus programming language (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (prod) [315] 23:58 Kopete (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [316] [317] (CSD A7) [318] (prod) [319] (LSR tag) [320] 00:28 Z-Net (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [321] (prod) [322] [323] 00:36 List of ircII scripts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [324] (prod) [325] (redir) [326] [327] 00:46 PIRCH (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [328] [329] (tag) [330] (LSR tag) [331] 00:49 WeeChat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [332] [333] (CSD G4) [334] (LSR tag) [335] 06:04 Neebly (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [336] (AfD nom) [337] (LSR tag) [338] 06:43 Nettalk (IRC client) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [339] (AfD nom) [340] (LSR tag) [341] 20:34 Naim (chat program) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (DRV discussion) [342] 20:40 ERC (IRC client) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (DRV discussion) [343] [344] 23:57 AmIRC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [345] 16:40 InspIRCd (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [346] 00:43 Quiet Internet Pager (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (DRV discussion) [347] 06:06 Comparison of Internet Relay Chat clients (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [348] (AfD nom) [349] (tag) [350] [351] 18:14 Comparison of mobile Internet Relay Chat clients (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [352] (AfD nom) [353] 20:33 JmIrc (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [354] 17:51 PBot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [355] 20:31 XiRCON (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [356] 20:35 Ii (IRC client) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (prod) [357] 00:02 JIRCii (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [358] (AfD nom) [359] [360] 08:09 Instantbird (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [361] (AfD nom) [362] 04:40 Initgame (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (prod) [363] 20:30 Conquest (game) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (prod) [364] 18:42 Infobot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [365] 19:08 Gozerbot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (prod) [366] 23:58 Ircu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [367] 07:53 EnergyMech (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [368] 07:54 Mozbot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [369] 07:55 Darkbot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [370] 18:04 Acrophobia (game) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [371] 21:11 Irssi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) [372] Computer software-related 01:19 Davfs2 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [373] [374] 08:23 Parchive (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [375] (AfD nom) [376] [377] 20:58 TundraDraw (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [378] [379] 09:10 Celemony (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [380] (AfD nom) [381] 02:39 Leafpad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [382] [383] [384] WP:COMP [385] [386] 01:17 ProSystem (Emulator) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [387] [388] 15:54 Parchive (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (DRV discussion) [389] (DRV nom) [390] [391] 01:47 Fortitude HTTP (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [392] [393] WP:COMP [394] 21:08 OneFinger (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [395] [396] WP:COMP [397] [398] 21:18 Elecard MPEG Player (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [399] [400] WP:COMP [401] 16:53 Joe's Own Editor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [402] [403] 01:14 SmartPAR (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [404] (AfD nom) [405] [406] 07:03 QuickPar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [407] (AfD nom) [408] [409] 15:32 Monit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [410] [411] WP:COMP [412] 20:36 JollysFastVNC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [413] [414] [415] WP:COMP [416] 23:10 LabPlot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [417] [418] 23:21 Nemu64 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [419] WP:COMP [420] 00:42 MyPaint (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [421] [422] WP:COMP [423] 06:23 E2compr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [424] (AfD nom) [425] WP:COMP [426] 08:58 Free alternatives to proprietary software (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [427] [428] 21:11 Spider Player (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [429] [430] 12:58 WAMP (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) [431] [432] 02:01 Tmux (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD discussion) (AfD nom) [433] (prod) [434]

--Tothwolf (talk) 22:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Response to Theserialcomma

Misquotes

The quote of "Tothwolf: ... you publically admitted to stalking me" is not what I said in this diff. [435] The correct quote is: "I wondered how long it would take you to show up here, Miami33139, since you already publicly admitted to stalking my contribs and following me around to XfD. ..." I stand by that statement and I don't think anyone reasonable would disagree with that assessment given the diffs I linked to above.

The quote of "Tothwolf to Blaxthos: "wp:duck take your ranting and threats to your own talk page" is not accurate either. [436] The edit summary was: "WP:DUCK; Please take the ranting and threats to your own talk page, thanks."

As for this comment on the Mibbit AfD [437] the nom was indef blocked soon after for AfD disruption. See this discussion on AN/I [438] and the block log. [439] This strange RFA !vote [440] led to this discussion [441] and the filing of a SPI report. [442]

The Mibbit AfD itself [443] ended up as a pretty much unanimous keep after I rewrote and expanded the article (and then took it to DYK) just to prove to a number of people that it could be rescued at AfD (I was told it was a "hopeless" case). This is a good example of the work that I much prefer to do with regards to IRC-related articles when I'm not being wikihounded and harassed.

COI & Eggdrop

As I've already stated multiple times, including above, I've contributed to Eggdrop. As you've pointed out, I've also written some scripts for Eggdrop. Neither of those mean I have a conflict of interest with either the Eggdrop article or the topic of IRC as a whole (both of which you've continued to claim).

I think SarekOfVulcan probably said it best when replying to Will Beback in the COI/N discussion which you initiated [444] while on the topic of the COI guideline "No, it strongly discourages editing to "promote your own interests". Writing about what you know isn't automatically a conflict." [445] "And, in a nutshell: "Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals or of organizations, including employers, unless you are certain that the interests of Wikipedia remain paramount."(emphasis mine) If Tothwolf can confidently make that assertion, there's no issue here." [446]

I will continue to stand by my claim that there is no conflict of interest and that my focus here on Wikipedia has been and continues to be to improve Wikipedia. I have no interests in using Wikipedia to promote Eggdrop or any other projects which I've contributed to. Quite frankly, none of those projects even need any sort of outside promotion and as a simple Google search clearly shows, [447] the meager Wikipedia article isn't even the top search result and doesn't really even get that many daily hits [448] either.

I certainly have done some prior work to the Eggdrop article (and added a lot of references) but as far as I'm aware, everything there is accurate. The very first message anyone left on my talk page was from someone who thought I was doing a great job [449] improving the article. I'll also point out that no one other than Theserialcomma has claimed that I have an actual conflict of interest with Eggdrop, nor has anyone said that the article was biased or factually wrong (and if it is, then I certainly want to know so we can fix it).

While I would like to improve the article further, as seen in the article history, [450] I've not touched it since Theserialcomma initiated that COI/N discussion back in May. During that COI/N I said "... I have no intentions of edit warring with someone who wishes to cause disruption, so I'm not going to touch this particular article until after the issue of Theserialcomma's disruption is dealt with..." [451] It also shows that no edit warring actually took place (which directly contradicts Theserialcomma's claims that I edit warred on that article).

The reference Theserialcomma so strongly objected to was [452] but as another editor pointed out on the talk page, that particular page could be linked statically [453] via a slightly different url. (full discussion) Luna Santin actually invoked WP:NOTDIR [454] as the reason for removing the material from the article [455] which by in large I happen to agree with. The way in which that specific material was presented wasn't the best although I think some of the material probably could be presented in a different fashion which might be much more encyclopedic.

Misrepresentations

The way in which links regarding Mikaey, Yworo, the past AN/I discussion, and even Blaxthos are being presented is misrepresenting, very much distorted, and seems to be an attempt to paint a very different picture from actual events. While I really don't feel that this is all that relevant to Theserialcomma's wikihounding of myself and others, since Theserialcomma brought it up, I feel it would probably be best to directly address these anyway to get the events right.

This particular sequence of events began on July 20, 2009 where I happened upon what turned into an edit war involving a number of editors regarding an image used in the Linux article. The first removal was by Fasach Nua [456] which at the time to me appeared to be a good faith removal due to confusion over the image's license template and I restored the image about an hour later. [457] Six hours later, Yworo reverted me with the reason "there seems to be a consensus that this doesn't belong here; take to talk" [458] which I still find odd because there was no prior discussion or consensus to remove the image. It was restored by 85.240.125.85 47 minutes later with the edit summary "no, there is no "consensus that this doesn't belong here", and controversial removals of content need consensus first. This is quite relevant". [459] Yworo then removed the image again about a half hour later [460] saying "take to talk". At this point I reverted Yworo [461] and I added a warning template to Yworo's talk page [462] as it appeared to be just more disruptive vandalism from a new account that the article had been receiving quite a bit of during this time period. Yworo immediately removed the warning from their talk page [463] and then made this sequence of edits to the Linux article. [464] [465] [466] [467] [468] About 4 and a half hours later, Fasach Nua again removed the image with no edit summary [469] and it was restored again about a half hour later by 85.241.105.44 [470] with the edit summary "please discuss before removing content". Yworo reverted minutes later [471] "go ahead, take it to talk (and please create an accound first so people can communicate with you on your talk page)" 85.241.105.44 immediately added the image back again [472] which was again reverted by Fasach Nua. [473]

On July 21st, 85.240.105.138 started this discussion [474] on Talk:Linux which resulted in discussion over the course of the next few days, although a consensus was never reached regarding the image.

During the discussion I made a comment regarding similar controversial image removals from other articles by Fasach Nua [475] (which I saw in their contribution history) and I also pointed out where Yworo had been making massive numbers of what appeared to be automated edits to other articles. Yworo took offense to that [476] and it ultimately turned into these two discussions with Yworo [477] [478] on my talk page. Things further degenerated after Yworo began removing two images (including the one previously on the Linux article) from other articles and adding deletion templates to the images. [479] [480]

During these issues with Yworo, I contacted Mikaey (off-wiki in an attempt to minimise further drama with Yworo) and asked him for advice on how best to deal with this situation. Ultimately, although not a suggestion from Mikaey, I ended up cropping the backgrounds and toolbars from the images to stop the argument, and restored the images to some of the articles (not Linux, since there was no consensus there) and tried to walk away from the situation. Yworo did not stop and was eventually warned by another editor [481] to stop removing the images from articles. Yworo would not let it go though and followed me to this AfD. [482] Three days later, they started this discussion on Mikaey's talk page [483] in which they claimed I was trolling, after I made this reply [484] when they were again edit warring with another editor.

On August 2nd, Yworo followed me to a heated discussion on Talk:Shell account which was completely unrelated to anything Yworo and I had discussed. Yworo then attempted to fan the already heated debate [485] by making a personal attack towards me. MuZemike started an AN/I discussion [486] when things continued to escalate. As best I can tell, I've had no further interaction with Yworo since that AN/I discussion.

As Theserialcomma had previously done before (and has done since), they then made a false statement in that AN/I discussion in an attempt to cause additional drama. [487]

Towards the end of that discussion, Mikaey created User:Mikaey/Tothwolf which I discussed with him extensively off-wiki because I felt it contained bias and contains factual errors. I asked him several times to {{NOINDEX}} the page so Google wouldn't pick it up, but he refused. I finally posted a message on-wiki indicating the issues and again asked that he {{NOINDEX}} the page. [488]

Since then, Theserialcomma has attempted to create issues between Mikaey and myself anytime I initiated an AN/I discussion (see above) and became fixated on that deleted subpage [489] [490] (also see above). Unfortunately this has ultimately has led to Mikaey and myself not really speaking with each other anymore, which is really a shame since I rather enjoyed talking with him and he tended to give very good advice.

As for the issues on Talk:Shell account, Hm2k initiated an AfD for the article when the RFC discussion didn't result in the outcome he desired [491] although it ultimately resulted in a snow keep and a much improved article. [492] Hm2k and I later settled our differences on Talk:EFnet#NickServ. Although at first the discussion was somewhat strained, we have since worked together on other articles and have both continued to work towards improving many of these articles.

In hindsight, I think the issues with Yworo and the Linux images as well as Hm2k and Shell account went clearly into WP:LAME territory and with the experience gained in dealing with both of those difficult situations, it is unlikely that they would be repeated today. Now I would probably just let Yworo have their way and allow the Linux images to be deleted, which while probably not the ideal solution, would cause less drama. With Shell account, it might have been easier to just let Hm2k remove the links, which was never resolved anyway due to the AfD nomination of the article which disrupted the RFC.

As for Blaxthos, as I stated in the reply to Blaxthos in my RFAR statement, I've had very little interaction with Blaxthos and the only interaction has been on-wiki. The only interaction I could find during an exhaustive search was an AfD he initiated for List of quote databases [493] and a related AN/I discussion which Blaxthos also initiated. [494] As I stated in both my reply to Blaxthos and in that AN/I discussion, I have nothing to do with any of his bash.org troubles nor do I have any connections with other quote database sites.

In that very AN/I discussion, Theserialcomma (yet again) attacked me with more false accusations of COI and canvassing. [495] [496] I'll also point out that contrary to Theserialcomma's second statement, I didn't then, nor do I now have access to the Wikipedia administrators' IRC channel (see WP:WEA).

Additional misquoting and misrepresentation

At this point I am going to formally ask that Theserialcomma refrain from further "quoting" me while calling it "paraphrased and summarized" as these are clearly misquotes and I cannot see such misrepresentations of what was actually said as being beneficial in any way to this process.

The quote of "Tothwolf to JBSupreme and Miami: "... your willful disruption that you created as a group and enjoyed doing... you thought you would mass afd articles "to get back at tothwolf""" is not even remotely similar to what was actually said. [497]
The actual quote (in full) is: "JBsupreme, given the disruption you and Miami33139 willfully created as a group (and appeared to be enjoying whilst doing so) that was extremely well documented on AN/I (to the point where it required its own subpage), your continued false assertions are unlikely to do you any good at all here. You and Miami33139 may have thought you would mass-AfD articles to "get back at Tothwolf for getting other articles kept at AfD etc" but the only thing you managed to accomplish is to upset lots of other community members and bring the spotlight upon yourselves." I stand by that statement and I don't think anyone reasonable would disagree with that assessment given the diffs I linked to above.

TenPoundHammer and I had a simple misunderstanding (and we occasionally {{trout}} one another). [498] Theserialcomma also knows very well that TenPoundHammer and I resolved our misunderstanding as TenPoundHammer left a comment directly on Theserialcomma's talk page. [499]

--Tothwolf (talk) 10:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC) (last edited 18:04, 21 November 2009 (UTC))

Response to Joe Chill

While I was familiar with Joe Chill's former account name (his edit and behavioural patterns were nearly identical), I did not, nor would I have disclosed Joe Chill's former username. He disclosed it himself [500] and I still think it was rather unnecessary for him to do so. Joe Chill himself admitted [501] that other members of the community had also voiced a number of concerns over his editing and AfD behaviours in relation to his past username.

In our discussions on the Leafpad AfD [502] and the related AN/I discussion Joe Chill initiated [503] I did not refer to him as a "meatpuppet".

Miami33139 had made attempts to stir things up further with both Joe Chill and JBsupreme. [504] [505]

The AfD discussions Joe Chill participated in were not strictly related to IRC-topics and the fact that the pattern seemed to follow across a wide variety of topics is what caused concern. The AfDs linked in the table above make this very clear. See also [506]

When I initiated an AN/I discussion regarding Miami33139 and JBsupreme's continuing wikihounding and harassment [507] I did raise the question of possible off-wiki communication and meatpuppetry. I did not accuse Joe Chill of being a "meatpuppet", I only stated that I had concerns over possible meatpuppetry which I felt was in need of scrutiny by the larger community.

Joe Chill's actions were also questioned by others in this AN/I discussion, including Uncle G. [508] [509]

During the lengthy discussion with Joe Chill on AN/I I acknowledged that my concerns over possible meatpuppetry with regards to Joe Chill may have been in error. [510] We then took the discussion to his talk page where Joe Chill and I resolved our misunderstanding. [511] I then posted a followup note on both the AN/I discussion and Leafpad AfD indicating this. [512] [513]

--Tothwolf (talk) 23:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Response to Mikaey

My interaction with Mikaey predates him becoming an administrator, [514] both on-wiki and off-wiki, and not once did I ask him as an administrator to handle any issues relating to Yworo or other editors. Mikaey volunteered to talk to Yworo after I mentioned Yworo had taken to following me around and had been edit warring with other editors (both of which are documented above).

The comment I had made to Mikaey on July 28th that he referred to here [515] was: "Yworo seems to make some constructive edits, I just wish they would not try to start so many fights with other editors or do things like try to CSD non-free images because they don't like them."

As for the heated discussion on Talk:Shell account, that was also covered above.

Contrary to Mikaey's assertion here, I had done very little in the way of editing to either Linux or Shell account so a claim of "Tothwolf was trying to assert control over the pages that he was involved with ..." makes little sense. My contribution history will also disprove this theory as I often work with other editors on both articles and template projects.

The truth of the matter is, issues with regards to Miami33139 and JBsupreme most likely would have been resolved in this rather lengthy AN/I discussion had Mikaey not diverted the discussion away from the behaviours of Miami33139 and JBsupreme when he attempted to turn the discussion into strictly something about me, [516] which derailed the prior AN/I discussion. Mikaey did not respond further on AN/I when I pointed out that he was also too involved to make such a proposal. [517]

My own feeling and conclusions related to things with Mikaey is that he simply overreacted during the time in which he created User:Mikaey/Tothwolf. I tried to discuss things with him both privately and on-wiki but at the time it seemed as though he had his mind made up and there was little I could say that that would change his opinion. I still have hopes that eventually Mikaey and I can resolve the issues that have caused us to not really speak with each other anymore.

--Tothwolf (talk) 01:42, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Response to Blaxthos

It appears I've already replied to Blaxthos' false allegations twice before on July 1, 2009 on AN/I [518] as well as [519] in this thread [520] on PeterSymonds talk page.

Blaxthos seems to have a personal problem with Eckstasy and for some reason he seems to think I'm somehow connected with the QDB.us website. Eckstasy has also responded to Blaxthos' repeated allegations. [521] See also: [522] [523] [524] [525]

While I previously had no reason to go looking, a search of the noticeboard and WQA seems to indicate that Blaxthos has a long history of attacking other editors, fighting, and making false statements. [526] [527] [528] [529] [530] [531] (just a sample from the search results [532])

--Tothwolf (talk) 08:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Theserialcomma

Tothwolf has a COI

Tothwolf claims repeatedly that i "attacked him" with a "false" COI accusation of being an eggdrop developer. Furthermore, he claims my COI noticeboard posting about him was a "false report", calling any mention of a COI a "false accusation," and that it's also a personal attack against him.

COI evidence

• according to http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/packages/irc/eggdrop/UPDATES/1.5/UPDATES1.5.4, someone named "Tothwolf" has been developing eggdrop since 2000.
• according to www.compwisdom.com/topics/Eggdrop in "2006 - tothwolf and i were the only ones working (on the eggdrop project)"

Tothwolf writes in his arbitration evidence: "When the discussion on the (Eggdrop) talk page [[533]] didn't go the way (Theserialcomma) wanted..."

• This shows tothwolf's skewed interpretation of certain events. For the record, Tothwolf was edit warring on Eggdrop to include an open registration wiki as a source named "the tcl wiki". I said on the talk page that wikis are not RS because there's no editorial oversight. TW edit warred, recruited an obvious meatpuppet from IRC to agree with him [[534]], but then an uninvolved admin User: Luna Santin came in and removed tothwolf's wiki as a source [[535]]. I solely wanted the source removed, as the talkpage will show, and it was rightfully removed. Tothwolf's arbitration evidence states that situation "didn't go the way (Theserialcomma) wanted." - How? It didn't go the way he wanted, which is the exact opposite of his interpretation of the event, which brings me back to the COI:

• the "TCL wiki" (and disputed source) in question, which tothwolf edit warred to include, has a link to a site called www.techmonkeys.org/~tothwolf/wolfpack - "a scripting framework written in TCL" by tothwolf, a TCL and Eggdrop developer. No COI?

• I filed a Checkuser on Tothwolf at the same time due to Tothwolf's recruitment of a meatpuppet to agree with him about the tcl wiki. The CU was closed due to lack of evidence. However, I stand behind my assertion that this person was recruited by Tothwolf on IRC. [[536]] [[537]]

(will be adding more evidence over the next two days)

Tothwolf's history of failing to assume good faith, claims of stalking, hounding, and harassment

• User: Mikaey writes: "Tothwolf does have a history of crying "wolf" whenever anyone does something to an article that he doesn't like. If he has ever touched the article, it suddenly turns into "wikihounding", when those users had no such intentions. I think Tothwolf has thrown the words "wikistalking" and "wikihounding" around more than anyone else I've come across on WP. Tothwolf always manages to avoid any sort of rebuff for his actions, because he always manages to paint the user he is after as the bad guy..." [[538]]

• 3 August 2009: User: Mikaey writes on an ANI (paraphrased): Tothwolf contacted me(Mikaey) for help from an admin on IRC because he felt Yworo was stalking his edits and harassing him by editing articles he edits. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=305758486

• 4 August 2009: User: Mikaey "Folks, I think it might be prudent to bring up a bigger issue -- longstanding behavioral problems with Tothwolf. I took some time this morning to go through some of his contributions, and I've compiled a summary of a few encounters that he had with other users. The summary is here. There's other encounters that he has had, but I haven't had the time/energy to document them. However, the common patterns that I'm seeing here are incivility, gaming the system, and manipulation, and these encounters went mostly unchecked. This run-in with Yworo and Hm2k is just the latest episode. I believe it's time for that to stop, and I suggest that some sort of action be taken." http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=305933337

• 1 Oct 2009: User: Mikaey proposes on ANI (paraphrased) that if Tothwith continues to fail to AGF, takes Ownership of articles in which he has personal interest, he should be blocked http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=next&oldid=317226229

• 1 OCT 2009: User: NeutralHomer responds to Mikaey's proposal with a "Yes" vote and notes Tothwolf is "definitely in violation of WP:Own http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=next&oldid=317227347

• 1 OCT 2009 Ncmvocalist proposes anotehr community sanction for tothwolf's failure to AGF and WP:OWN http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=next&oldid=317231868

the following are paraphrased and summarized by me. please see diffs for exact quotes and context:

• Tothwolf: this is a bad faith nomination and I cannot assume good faith

• Tothwolf: ... you publically admitted to stalking me

• Tothwolf to Blaxthos: "wp:duck take your ranting and threats to your own talk page [[539]]

• • Yworo to Tothwolf: please assume good faith.
  • Tothwolf: my comments are valid observations and i cannot assume good faith [[540]]

Tothwolf to JBSupreme and Miami: "... your willful disruption that you created as a group and enjoyed doing... you thought you would mass afd articles "to get back at tothwolf"" [[541]]

Tothwolf accuses User: TenPoundHammer of 'getting revenge' on him by AFD stalking his articles [[542]]

Tothwolf is told by WLU that even if my nom of ytcracker was pointy, it still lacked reliable sources. tothwolf reverts the talk with the message "please dont cross post" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tothwolf&limit=500&action=history

tothwolf follows me to punitively vote delete an article in which i've voted keep, that he's never edited, because i voted delete on another article

• 00:47 27 September 2009, I vote on leafpad "Delete non notable, fails WP:N and no significant coverage otherwise. easy delete"]

• 01:02 27 September 2009, about 15 minutes later, tothwolf follows me to an AFD i've voted 'keep' on (bullshido, which was kept) and writes verbatim my previous words: " * Delete non notable, fails WP:N and no significant coverage otherwise. easy delete Tothwolf (talk) 01:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

question for tothwolf about jeske couriano

What is the extent of your relationship with jeske couriano off-wiki? What have you discussed with him on IRC/off-wiki in reference to me, and what has he said? Do your interactions with him go beyond IRC? email? more? I ask because there is no log of your interactions on wikipedia, and he has actively taken a disturbing, aggressive interest in me in all situations involving you. e.g. [[543]], [[544]]. jeske's been warned by georgewilliamherbert for attacking me in an ANI thread in which jeske was previously uninvolved, but jeske still continues to be aggressively "on my ass" which is a direct quote from jeske [[545]] Theserialcomma (talk) 19:03, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

question to tothwolf about my sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry report again him

User: Thommey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Thommey is whom I accused you of canvassing on IRC to help you establish your own consensus on the eggdrop's talk page, and then I filed a sockpuppetry report against you for it. you've denied the meat/sock accusation, called it harassment just like you called the COI/eggdrop accusation 'harassment' and 'false'. question:

• have you interacted with Thommey off wiki, on IRC, perhaps? are you, or have you been in the same IRC channel as him? I have further evidence of this, but in the same of brevity, i'd like for you to respond to whether you are familiar with him on IRC. Theserialcomma (talk) 19:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Joe Chill

I was a past victim of Tothwolf

When I !voted deleted in IRC AFDs started by JBSupreme and Miami, Tothwolf started calling me a meatpuppet and assuming bad faith towards me every chance that he got. He digged through the contributions of this account and my previous account to twist things. A big example of him assuming bad faith and calling me a meatpuppet is [546] (It ended with a message that his bad faith assertions toward me was over). After everything that I have seen, I think that he is paranoid. Other examples are here, here, and here. Joe Chill (talk) 13:45, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Response to Tothwolf

Do you think that saying that I might be a meatpuppet is any better? You were complaining about me participating in software AFDs which I have done for over a year and you were the first person to make a big deal over it. You digged through my contributions to come up with the false accusation that whenever I nominate articles for deletion, I'm doing it to get back at editors. You also called me disruptive repeatedly when I wasn't doing anything against the rules, only your personal beliefs (which you admitted in ANI). Uncle G was questioning me because he misunderstood what I said. After I got it all explained, he stopped replying to me. So that's a minor issue. Joe Chill (talk) 23:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Response to Hm2k

I wasn't participating in those AFDs to attack Tothwolf. Like I said, I have been participating in software AFDs for over a year. Most of my participation has been in AFD. Joe Chill (talk) 12:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Mikaey

My memory is a little fuzzy on some of the details here, so I apologize for not being able to provide all the details that I could.

Tothwolf appeared on my radar a few months back, in the days when I hung out on IRC in #wikipedia-en. I responded to his !admin ping, where he claimed that Yworo was stalking him. After reviewing his claim, I told him that there was nothing block-worthy -- in fact, all I could see was that they had crossed paths on a few articles -- and I declined to take any action against either of them.

Tothwolf contacted me a few more times over the next few days, again claiming that Yworo was stalking him. I re-iterated to him that stalking is not, by itself, a blockable offense, but I did see a hint of incivility in Yworo, so I did give a friendly warning to Yworo. Yworo's reply started to give me a clue as to what was going on; and after I reviewed the interactions between the two of them more thoroughly, I came to the conclusion that Yworo had done nothing wrong.

After I watched Tothwolf get into another spout with Hm2k on Talk:Shell account, I decided that Tothwolf was trying to assert control over the pages that he was involved with, to the point of taking well-intended contributions from others and turning them into "vandalism" and "disruption". I began reviewing his contributions, and compiled a list of the disturbing things I saw. I saved it under User:Mikaey/Tothwolf, since I didn't necessarily trust that I could find it on my own computer later on. It was brought to my attention (and I don't remember exactly where or by who anymore) that this could be perceived as an attack page, and I didn't have the energy to pursue any further action against Tothwolf (such as RFC/U or RFAR), so I deleted it. Since then, I've kept mostly to myself about it, only occasionally participating in his squabbles with others when people asked me to get involved.

Conclusions

I'll simply say that I still stand by everything I wrote in User:Mikaey/Tothwolf. The pattern that I have seen with Tothwolf is that he takes ownership of articles/issues that he has a vetted interest in, and defends them by picking a fight with anyone who makes changes he doesn't like. He will ask for admin intervention where he can't succeed on his own. Further, when he is put on the stand, he will try to divert the discussion away from its intended topic and drag it out for so long that people lose interest in taking any action against him.

Evidence presented by Blaxthos

I do not wish to be directly involved with this case unless so requested by the ArbCom or their clerks, but given the large number of other editors who have shared similar experiences with Tothwolf, I feel obligated to make mention of my brief experience here. Several months ago I nominated an article for deletion and "caught the attention" of Tothwolf. I encourage readers to review the AFD in question, in which Tothwolf exhibited what I consider to be an astounding lack of good faith and general badgering of editors with whom he did not agree. Tothwolf stalked me off wiki (both in IRC and email), and apparently had his IRC pals do so as well -- for several weeks I was inundated with generic and specific harassment. Please make special note of his implicit threats referencing DDoS attacks. I also encourage readers to review the ANI case regarding this incident. The experience taught me to just avoid Tothwolf and his thugs, so I haven't had any run-ins since. I have no good faith that Tothwolf will ever improve, and I hope this statement will help the Committee resolve this issue. Thanks. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:55, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by HM2K

As I have been mentioned in this case I feel obligated to add my 2 cents.[547]

Shell account

On reflection it seems to me that Tothwolf couldn't get his own way with the Shell account article I was trying to improve. He simply threw his toys out of the pram on Talk:Shell_account and did not assume good faith with my edits.

Eventually he pushed my buttons to the point where I did not see the point of continuing the debate unless it was decided that the article was even worth keeping. See: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shell_account.

Upon the decision of keep, I went on to improved the article considerably, with the help from other editors who mainly added references.[548] Since then tothwolf is only seen on this article reverting abusive edits.[549][550]

Throughout the debate on Talk:Shell_account I became aware that tothwolf was clearly in defensive mode, acting out toward anyone who he felt was attacking him. At this point I didn't really understand why.

I felt that reporting me and User:Yworo was completely counter productive. At the time I felt that this just gave tothwolf a further soapbox where he could attempt to discredit me further.[551]

This was, in my opinion a bad call on the part of MuZemike, who raised the report in the first place. However it did make me realise that there was a bigger issue.

However, there is no excuse for this behaviour on Wikipedia as it does not assume good faith, but as I said before: "rather than start ganging up on Tothwolf, can we focus on a resolution?".

It is worth noting that before this drama began I had not come across Tothwolf, Yworo or MuZemike.

Beyond

Beyond this drama, I came across tothwolf a further time when debating a statement within an article that lacked reliable sources. Despite an initial hostility, eventually good faith was assumed and we managed to settle the debate, which resulted in reliable sources and a more accuratly worded statement. See: Talk:EFnet#NickServ

I since learned of tothwolfs involvement in the eggdrop project[552] and the Wikipedia:WikiProject_IRC, which naturally deserves a hat tip.

Further to this I am starting to see users ganging up to delete IRC related (such as psyBNC). These users include Miami33139, JBsupreme, Joe Chill and Theserialcomma, all of which appear in this case. See: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/PsyBNC_(2nd_nomination)

There's clearly a relationship starting to develop between deleted IRC articles, and users ganging up on tothwolf. This is a clear abuse of Wikipedia.

Two wrongs don't make a right and Wikipedia should not be abused in order to get back at another user by ganging up and deleting articles that they are involved in. It's completely counter productive.

Conclusion

In conclusion, tothwolf clearly likes to get his own way and hasn't done himself any favours. However I do think tothwolf has seen the error of his ways and is trying to now back paddle. I don't think he deserves being targeted any further. It's just not nice.

I hope my insight has been useful.

--Hm2k (talk) 10:01, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by 83.254.210.47

I remember the users Tothwolf, JBsupreme and Miami33139 from when I met them at AfD, I was never involved with the corresponding editors before. There was a mass deletion of IRC related articles going on in September/October 2009 and I remember that the tone was hostile, to a point where it was pointless to discuss and work on issues together. When one article that I worked on was dragged into AfD (possibly as a sort of revenge by JBsupreme) I stopped participating. It was my wake up call, I realised that the English Wikipedia policies and processes are abused. I can understand if Tothwolf feels harassed by JBsupreme and Miami33139, because as a direct result of their harassment and disruption I have withdrawn from Wikipedia since then. - 83.254.210.47 (talk) 14:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Milowent

I first became acquainted with the players here at the end of September/Early Oct 2009 during the IRC AfD Death March, apparently long after their feud started. For that reason, I can't really say for sure what started the feud and why. In my opinion from viewing their edits since, however, Miami and JBSupreme are smart editors who lean deletionist, and would be fully able to subtly annoy the hell out of anyone they wished, if they chose to do so. (Just look at 83.254.210.47's comment above; I remember seeing him being run off.) Miami's little schtick about "tell me why this diff is hounding" has been repeated before; of course we wouldn't hope that every edit he makes is intended to piss off Tothwolf. Is Tothwolf reacting with too much drama and emotion? Maybe so, but its not borne out of complete hallucinations.

IRC Death March Evidence

During the IRC death march, I found that a number of the AfDs by Miami and JBSupreme were likely ill-advised. Whether that was intended to annoy Tothwolf or not, I really can't say.

E.g., Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/BitchX. Nom by JBSupreme (29 Sept), Miami as the first delete. Coming by soon after (with no special knowledge of IRC clients) I noted I found numerous references; I added some to the article. The serialcomma later chimed in with a delete vote. Toth also participated throughout (adding a rescue tag after the nomination for starters) but there was no overt animosity among the players in this AfD. Article was kept.

Oct 1 nom for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kopete. Nom by Miami, in which he said no existing references showed notability, but not that other references could not be found. I found this odd because I saw copious google hits. JBSupreme soon commented (after I noted I saw sources out there) that he had "just searched and found no evidence of notability." With a quizzical eyebrow now raised, I added 16 references into the Afd. Miami subsequently withdrew the nom. Tothwolf did not comment on this one, but at the time I felt there must be some ulterior motive for the AfD.

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/PIRCH was an Oct 1 nom by Miami, where the nom said in part "the burden is on the article creator to demonstrate the notability of the subject via references." As Uncle G said in the first reply: "No, the burden is on you, and everyone here at AFD, to look for sources yourself. Otherwise you have no way of knowing, and thus no real grounds for claiming, whether something is notable or not." Toth chimed in on this one, commenting to Miami that "this has gone beyond absurd." My own comment was keep, "Based on discussion to date, its clear nomination was half-assed. There appear to be sources out there."

--Milowent (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Thommey

Response to Theserialcomma calling me a puppet of Tothwolf

• The only contribution where I crossed path with Tothwolf before my last one were to The Game (dice game) and its AfD. Tothwolf asked on IRC if there was a German that would like to verify and search for some sources. I did that and added them to the article [553]. I then felt the article was worth keeping and the issues raised in the AfD were addressed, so I commented in the AfD [554]. I was never asked to comment there by Tothwolf.
• The only other article Tothwolf and I both edited was Talk:Eggdrop. Theserialcomma raised concerns about using a wiki as a source because anyone can edit it [555]. He constantly kept removing it from the article instead of finishing the discussion on the Talk page to find consensus first [556] [557] [558]. After removing it a third time, he went on to remove a complete section from the article [559] while the discussion on the Talk page still went on. I read the discussion and had an idea: a static revision link for that wiki. I went on to suggest that and asked Theserialcomma why he now removed the whole section and the official website of Eggdrop as a source [560] (I was still new to Wikipedia and not familiar in depth with WP:V WP:RS and their implications). He didn't reply to my comment. Instead, he called me a sockpuppet and/or meatpuppet and filed a SPI case [561] (closed due to lack of evidence [562]), and now he still does it here after I didn't edit for 6 months after that encounter. Calling me a puppet was totally uncalled for, I never voted or backed up Tothwolf's opinion in any way.
• I never bothered contributing to Wikipedia again because of that behaviour: I commented in a discussion by making a constructive suggestion and all I got was being called a sockpuppet and a meatpuppet and I never got a reply to my suggestion by Theserialcomma. There's a reason for WP:AGF, especially on new editors, after all. thommey (talk) 21:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Evidence presented by {your user name}

before using the last evidence template, please make a copy for the next person

{Write your assertion here}

Place argument and diffs which support your assertion; for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring.

{Write your assertion here}

Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.