Talk:Frank Sinatra

Senate Hearings Anyone???

I heard Frank Sinatra testified before Senate (Congress?) that rock and blues music are "lewd" and "immoral". Can anyone confirm or refute this? I don't know if this has anything to do with PMRC tho'. - Joe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.51.22.212 (talk) 15:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The article isn't too long

It has alot of information, but thats just fine. It's a real feature article, and almost everybody will find what interests them here. Infact, it should be expanded. Somebody asked here about his vocal range, someone else might be interested in his political views. Anyway, the article isn't to long, it's an example for a normal-sized article for its theme. M.V.E.i. 21:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It's quite long compared to say McCartney, Beethoven or Elvis...Could we move the bio to Life of Frank Sinatra, leaving a shortened versh? I've already created Frank Sinatra Filmography, List of Frank Sinatra's awards and accolades and Frank Sinatra's recorded legacy for similar reasons. Gareth E Kegg 18:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The filmography is now at Frank Sinatra filmography. -- Beardo (talk) 02:46, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Although I think it's admirable how much content is in this article, I really think it is too long. It's exhausting just going through the Table of Contents. The length is really what's holding this article back from being Featured. Williamnilly (talk) 18:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Shall we delete Life of Frank Sinatra or add to it and condense the bio on the main page? We do need to strip out a lot...should a new article be created detailing Mob allegations? Or is this further evidence of my descent into Sinatramania? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 18:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sintra lived a lot longer than Elvis did, and rather longer than Paul has so far, and there is a lot more info available from living sources about Frank than there is about Beethoven, I daresay. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeh, but what do other think of my proposal? Gareth E Kegg 12:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Your proposal is a pain in the ass! Stop comparing Frank to McCartney or such jerkheads! --Shifty86 11:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Relax please. I was comparing the artists in terms of article length. The page has been cut by a third already. Gareth E Kegg 13:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, my girlfriend and I split today and it's oh so maddening. Please keep doing your good work - will you forgive me? --Shifty86 15:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I shall. There's no one better for break up songs than Frank. Try In the Wee Small Hours, Frank Sinatra Sings for Only the Lonely, Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim or She Shot Me Down. Gareth E Kegg 15:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Why no mention of his painting and artwork? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.132.98 (talk) 17:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

another thing, i put in the article that he is a member of Alpha Phi Delta fraternity which he is a part of because I am in that same fraternity so I added it in because it's another piece of information about him.

If this is the case, we need a citation to support it. I've requested one with a {{fact}} template. Feel free to add a reference if you have one. Thanks TheRetroGuy (talk) 21:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Bing not Bob

I couldnt figure out how to do an edit, but the piece states that Frank was less popular as a singer than Bob Crosby. I think the writer meant Bing Crosby. Can someone with edit privileges please oblige. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.146.244 (talk) 03:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Can't believe this article has no image of Frank Sinatra!

There should be at least a request for an image. 194.79.44.109 10:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There was one, and the deletionists killed it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 11:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Summer Wind his favorite?

I thought I read somewhere that Frank's favorite song to sing was "Summer Wind." Does anyone know a reference for that? --cda 02:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Philly's Frank Palumbo and mob allegations

I have just added a note to the Palumbos article and one the newer article on Frank Palumbo looking for some sources. Palumbo, a local celebrity in Philly, was a prominent club owner and very popular with a number of groups for his various philanthropic efforts. He also had powerful friends in local politics and entertainment, including controversial mayor Frank Rizzo and Sinatra. Mob tie allegations and an apparently fixed fight (Jake LaMotta-Billy Fox) haunted his life and tied prominantly to Sinatra (the two were close and were reps for Lamotte and Fox).

However, I'm having trouble finding reliable sources for anything including the words "Palumbo" and "mob", "Mafia", "mothers and fathers in association", etc. Since I'm sure allegations re Sinatra have been through the ringer here, does anyone have anything that might be of use in the Palumbo dyad? Mdbrownmsw 12:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds intresting. Have you tried Kitty Kelly's Sinatra bio His Way? That is the most detailed in reference to Mob allegations, though I admit I haven't heard of Palumbo before. Gareth E Kegg 14:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Amazon's Search Inside finds no instances of "Palumbo", "Palumbo's", "Click Club" or "Nostalgias". Thanks, but nothing there.

Mdbrownmsw 18:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Death date

May 14, 1998, was a Thursday. The obits say he died Thursday. The article says it occurred at 10:50 pm, which means Thursday, not past midnight into Friday. It's hard telling where the May 15 stuff is coming from, but it appears to be incorrect. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Rivalry with Brando

I updated the page to illustrate that sintra not only lost the role of Sky Masterson to Brando, but also that of Terry Malloy. The IMDb entry for On the Waterfront staes in the trivia section that Sinatra was offered the part after Brando turned it down, yet Sam Spiegal was hell bent on getting Brando. After losing the 2nd part to Brando it did in fact cause a rivalry between the two that only increased as they advanced in years. Sinatra even used to call Brando 'Mumbles'. I feel that this is a significant development in SInatra's career to warrant inclusion. Please reconsider. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.47.222 (talk) 20:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a couple issues with the inclusion. The most significant issue is that IMDB isn't considered a reliable source because it depends on user submissions for trivia and is not fact checked by an objective 3rd party nor is a source required for the inclusion of trivia. Another issue is that a source must be provided for material, which was not offered in the material entered. If you can provide citations for this, then by all means, it can be included. What you added left the paragraph reading:

In 1954 Sinatra was offered the part of Terry Malloy in On The Waterfront after Marlon Brando had turned it down. Brando later U-turned on his decision leaving Sinatra out of the frame. The following year Sinatra missed out on the role of Sky Masterson, in the hugely popular and successful Guys and Dolls. Losing the part was not made any easier with the fact that Brando had again 'stole his thunder'. Sinatra played the second male lead Nathan Detroit. It was the beginning of a lifelong feud between the two stars which also made for a tense shoot. Despite the rivalry the movie became the highest grossing film of 1955. Also in 1955, Sinatra's first 12" LP In the Wee Small Hours, his second collaboration with Nelson Riddle, was released.

Some of the wording is a little tenuous, such as the "U-turned on his decision leaving Sinatra out of the frame" and should read more to the effect of "changed his mind." It sounds a little biased as it was and needs to be more neutral. A similar problem lies with the "stole his thunder." I have no doubt a rivalry existed, but it needs to be professional sounding and requires sources, which is why I removed it. Please feel free to include this, worded neutrally and with sources. Wildhartlivie (talk) 20:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Issues

I appreciate the amount of work that went into this article and the accompanying biography expansion. It was a lot of work. However, I do have some concerns regarding how much this article and the "Life of" article are duplications of one another. I don't have a strong opinion on which article needs the greater work, but one or the other needs to be condensed and rewritten with an eye toward making the material more unique. Since this is about Sinatra in general, I would suggest that the personal life material be pared and the career material remain here. The article is also in need of improved referencing. There are a lot of facts, figures and quotes included with no reference whatsoever, although it's obvious that material for referencing is available given the bibliography and further reading sections. Another issue concerns the puffery and use of weasel word descriptions and peacockery. Use of language such as "gave an acclaimed performance," etc. aren't encyclopedic and violate WP:NPOV, WP:Peacock and WP:Weasel. I started working on some of this, but frankly, it's overwhelming. Hopefully, contributors will jump in and work on this. On the plus side, it's a lot cleaner than the Life of Frank Sinatra page. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

References

How can you put an article up for GA when it has "This article needs additional citations for verification" at the top? Sorry, but's a waste of time.--andreasegde (talk) 16:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It's getting there, but it's too soon. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 17:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Quick-failed GA nomination

Per the above and the quick-fail criteria, I am quick-failing this article's GA nomination. When the issue is fixed, please nominate the article again. Thanks, Kakofonous (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Connections to mafia?

There are rumors concerning Frank Sinatra having connections to the mafia (see e.g. the german version of this article: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sinatra#Verbindung_zum_organisierten_Verbrechen). Even if they are not true they should at least be mentioned. 81.173.143.169 (talk) 14:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I for one came here looking for info about Sinatra and the mob and was pretty surprised to find nothing. Whether accurate or not, I think it's a connection that exists in many or most people's minds. There should be information here discussing this, even if it's just proof that it's untrue.71.115.8.97 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• See Relationships of Frank Sinatra#Alleged organized crime links Gareth E Kegg (talk) 10:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, at least a reference in the main article would be appropriate, I was also surprised to find nothing. Made me suspect his PR people had edited this page. 71.232.98.240 (talk) 14:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I too came looking for Mafia info, and was surprised not to find anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.26.147.170 (talk) 22:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a book by Doonesbury comic writer Gary Trudeau called 'That's Dr. Sinatra, You Little Bimbo!'. On the cover is a picture of Sinatra spending time with none other than - Tommy 'Fatso' Marson, Don Carlo Gambino, (Frank has his arms on the shoulders of the first two gentlemen...they must be close) Richard 'Nerves' Fusco, Jimmy 'The Weasel' Fratianno, Joseph Gambino and Greg Depalma. I think these guys may know a thing or three about Cosa Nostra. I also recall that after Frank got the Medal of Freedom from President Reagan, more than a few people asked if he knew about Sinatra's alleged mob connections, but Ron usually replied that he didnt know anything about it and that he was sure Frank wouldn't hang around such people. LinoPop (talk) 22:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I just watched a long documentation about him. The connection to the Mafia is well documented, with his old personal friends talking about it as well. I think this stuff is really missing from Wikipedia, there are only like 3 references to "Mafia" in his article, and I think this is bad because it is such an interesting connection (the Mafia helped his career when it was flailing, for instance) 80.108.103.172 (talk) 05:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

'ol two eyes

Under Frank's photograph I think "'ol two eyes" should be "'ol blue eyes."

72.24.28.73 (talk) 22:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC) 03/03/08

Yes, I think you are correct. But it should be " ol' blue eyes," with the apostrophe in the place of the "d." There is no letter replaced befor the "o." DJMsings (talk) 17:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Frank Sinatra Has a Cold

Is it possible not to mention the famous portrait by Gay Talese ? It surely is a fine piece of journalism, and a big document on Sinatra. Isn't it ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.115.24 (talk) 15:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This article needs a discography

This article needs a discography. There are so many "compilations," "collections," and "best-ofs," that it is hard to know what was originally released by the artist and what wasn't. This is of particular import to Mr. Sinatra, since he is lauded as having made his albums works of art as a whole, because of the way that the songs fit together and flow. I would really like to see at least a list of the albums he released with publication information, and somehow a way to know whether the album as a whole was created by Mr. Sinatra, or thrown together for remarketing by a record company.DJMsings (talk) 17:14, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Your wish is granted! Gareth E Kegg (talk) 17:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Fails to answer the Big Question

Lots of detail, but after reading through the article, I still don't have the answer I came here for in the first place: What the heck was the big deal with this guy? Why was he so famous and popular? I've heard him sing, I've seen him act; he's pretty good, but nothing all that special. I've never been able to figure out why all the adulation, the almost religious ferver people have about the guy. The only clue I found here is that it started as a bobby-soxer thing (and really, who knows how bobby-soxers think). Seriously, I would love to see maybe a short paragraph or something explaining just what all the fuss was about, what it was about him that people adored and continue to adore so much. Get someone who's a real fan to write it or something. 24.16.111.20 (talk) 08:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

He predates bobby soxers by a fair bit. And if you've heard him sing (the good stuff, I mean, not "New York, New York" or anything after, oh, 1964) and don't get it yet, there probably isn't much an encyclopedia article is going to do for you. You have my condolences! Ford MF (talk) 17:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't supposed to be a forum, but the appeal of Sinatra is, well, ineffable. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 18:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I am sure that it is true that many "stars", both actors and singers, are not necessarily the greatest practitioners of their art. But I think the article does need to make clearer his importance in the history of popular music. (As someone born after he had passed his peak, I can see taht when he was good, he was very good. And he continued to be good into the 1970s, at least.) I also have a fondness for him as an actor - and I admire the fact that he didn't always play "star"-type roles. -- Beardo (talk) 02:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Have a look at Frank Sinatra's recorded legacy. -- Beardo (talk) 02:45, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

There must be plenty of quotes that can sum up Sinatra. How about this one:

"Sinatra — this is both his gift and, on occasion, his downfall — is always Sinatra. Beyond his technical prowess as a jazz-influenced pop singer, building on the innovations of Louis Armstrong, Bing Crosby and Billie Holiday, there is the sheer force of conviction, feeling, the weight of personal history in his voice. In this, only Holiday is his rival — perhaps even his better. Both exemplify what people in my generation like to flatter ourselves is unique to rock 'n' roll and its offshoots: the immediacy, the idiosyncrasy, the genuineness of expression. Sinatra is the century's musical equipoise, the pivot between the carefully crafted pop of its beginning and the looser, fiercer sounds of its end." Sourced from [1] Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 11:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

We might also add as a partial answer to this good question that Sinatra was the kind of Hemingway of popular music - you may like them or not, but their influences were far-reaching and culturally transformative. Just as Hemingway's spare prose style made it nearly impossible for subsequent stylists to construct the florid, lengthy, prolix sentences of a George Eliot or Henry James - Sinatra's phrasing (which included the slightly off-tempo syncopation for which he was famous and that EVERYone since has imitated) and naturalistic tonality (almost conversational) changed pop vocalizing forever. Pre-Sinatra - listen to Rudy Vallee and Bing Crosby (OK, Frank's contemporary but definitely old school in style) and you might begin to get the idea of just how different his style was from what came before. Listen to the way that he transforms Cole Porter's smooth, preppy, crooner type songs like "Night and Day" or "I Get A Kick Out Of You" into robust, masculine, slightly jazzy pop classics.

In short - a large part of his genius is nearly invisible to younger generations cut off culturally from their own heritage in, say, film or books or popular music, by the immediacy and shallow contemporaneity of TV in its different iterations. You don't see Sinatra's greatness because now it's literally everywhere, part of the environment, like air. Virtually everyone who sings pop music today is doing some kind of Sinatra - even when they don't realize it.Sensei48 (talk) 06:25, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

1938 Arrest

There is no mention in the main article or his personal reltionship article about his arreest in 1938 on charges of adultery and seduction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.100.104.17 (talk) 18:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

See Biography of Frank Sinatra. -- Beardo (talk) 02:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Layout gone fubar

The whole layout of this article is confusing and contradictory. The history of his works is under "biography" while his personal life gets a three-sentence mention in a separate section. A clearer split needs to be made between the Life/Works aspects of this article. Or, if the catch-all "biography" format is to be maintained, it needs serious cleanup. ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 23:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Use of Kitty Kelley biography as a source?!

I'm a little uncomfortable that we're using the Kelley bio as a source of factual biographical info. Kelly's an author of trash bios that are the book-bound equivalent of supermarket tabloids, and every single thing she's published has been lambasted, by her subjects, by the media, by her peers, as being full of lies. Seriously, every book.

I think using it as a reference--particularly for potentially controversial claims like mob association--is damaging to the credibility of our article. Surely if there is truth to these things, we can find references in the more reputable biographies. The fact that her bio is even mentioned in the article is embarrassing. Ford MF (talk) 21:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm a huge Sinatra fan, and love or hate Kelley's book, It's still the best and most comprehensive biography of Sinatra ever written. It is incredibly detailed, and whilst she hates to admit that he has any good points, there are plenty of other biographies of him which offer little or no criticism. The way Sinatra reacted to the publication of "His Way" was shocking, and he was laughed out of court. Kelley has never been forced to retract a word of her biographies, and there ARE extensive proofs of his Mafia associations in other books. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 22:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

While that's true, when Kelley's bios are mentioned in any of the other articles whose subjects she's written about, that mention is generally there only to reiterate that everyone thinks Kelley is unreliable and full of shit. Imagine sourcing biographical details in the George W. Bush article to her Bush book. It's absurd. If there are other sources for the mob ties--and I'm sure there are--we should use them. Ref'ing them to the Kelley bio gives them an air of fatuous scandal-mongering. Using her as a source only makes it seem like we're regurgitating the claims of the yellow press. Ford MF (talk) 22:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Kelley is a poor reference for a encyclopedia like Wikipedia. She angles everything toward a trash agenda - for instance, saying that Sinatra had "lunch" with Nancy Reagan - the quotes give it a certain connotation. These public figures are always laughed out of court because they are public figures, and if they want to sue, they have to go through what's called discovery. NONE of them are willing to do that, so people who have complained about Kelley, such as Elizabeth Taylor, never follow through. Writers like Kelley therefore know they're safe.Chandler75 (talk) 02:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Acting career

This article hardly mentions his acting career. Surely, we should have something about that ? -- Beardo (talk) 02:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Sinatra married in 2006...

...especially to Britney Spears. I could be wrong, but I removed it anyhow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.16.214 (talk) 22:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Article on Franks Famous Hat

I have an article on Franks Hat the link is http://www.dominichalpin.com/site/Franks_Hat.html Do you think this could go on the external links section of Franks Page ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domh333 (talk • contribs) 07:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

It isn't an original article, and very litle of it deals with Sinatra. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 12:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Love to help clean up this article, but

There are still issues with the dire lack of inline references. I just did a bit of clean up and wondered what the heck am I doing? I don't know who would bother to clean up weasel words/peacockery if there was a chance stuff was going to be deleted because it isn't sourced properly. if I'd written any of it, I'd put the inline references in, but I've only done one main edit. Come on guys, Mr. Sinatra deserves better!! By the way, please see "Fails to answer the big question", above.Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 09:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Tom Dreesen on David Letterman said:

Tom Dreesen was on the Late Show with David Letterman and was talking about Frank Sinatra. He was telling a story of how Frank Sinatra met a wife of a fan. She told him that her husband was ill and would really love an autograph. As Frank was signing the autograph she made a passing comment on how she liked his cuff links (worth $2000). After signing the autograph Frank promptly took off his cuff links and handed them to her. She tried to refuse, saying that she was only admiring them but Frank insisted that she take them. Afterwards Tom asked Frank why he had done that. Frank then replied:

"If you possess something but you can't give it away, then you don't possess it ...

... it possesses you."

Awesome quote. Akadewboy (talk) 19:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Misleading construction corrected

"Born in 1915 in Hoboken, New Jersey, Sinatra's parents had immigrated to the United States in 1895 and 1897..." If his parents were born in 1915 in New Jersey, as the sentence states, they could hardly have immigrated to the US in the 1890s. Sinatra's birth date and place are already covered, including in the infobox, so the incorrectly-descriptive introductory clause was simply deleted. Unimaginative Username (talk) 07:59, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Pokemon references

There's been a ridiculous pokemon reference in the first line that keeps coming back, and one instance of it stayed over several edits. I've changed it back, but it isn't going to last. Either the mod for this page starts actually paying attention or this page needs to be locked or something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.206.189 (talk) 18:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

"Old Blue Eyes"

Does anyone know who, or when the title of "OLD BLUE EYES" was conferred upon Frank Sinatra?

Thanks, J.P. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.187.192.255 (talk) 01:43, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe Sinatra himself invented it, it was first used as the title of his 1973 televison and album comeback special, Ol' Blue Eyes Is Back. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 17:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

His father

In his own article, Anthony Martin Sinatra is referred to throughout as "Marty". But here, he's "Tony". What gives? -- JackofOz (talk) 12:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

External Links

Wikipedia is censoring certain external links to Frank Sinatra fan sites and 'unofficial' sites. I have tried to add a link to the expansive sinatraguide.com site, and have had it removed twice by Wikipedia, saying that it does not 'conform' to their guidelines - and yet similar links may be found on other many other artists' Wiki pages. I understand that 'fan' or 'unofficial' sites are not always valuable, but some of them are useful, and I think deserve a link. Iambret (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

See WP:LINKSPAM, including the note that just because bad links appear elsewhere is not justification for another bad link. It is no disrespect to your site. MusicaBaroque (talk) 15:34, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Rephrase "professional career"?

Article currently reads: "His professional career had stalled by the 1950s ..."

"Professional career" seems redundant -- are not all careers professional? -- and not as accurate as it might be. The article then goes on to talk about his success in movies. Is not his movie career also part of his professional career?

A better phrasing might be:

"His musical career had stalled by the 1950s ..."

Opinions, anyone? I'm not an expert on Frank.

Karl gregory jones (talk) 23:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeh, sorry. I wrote the intro. He was hardly recording, and his moves were quite dreadful at that time. I just needed to convey the fact that he was at his nadir. How best can we put it? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 20:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The Rat Pack

The Rat Pack. Oh, Wikipedia, will press agents ever stop reverting your alleged encyclopaedic content? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.30.104 (talk) 16:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Italian American heritage

Frank Sinatra was Italian American Sammy8912 (talk) 17:10, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Everyone knows this. However his ethnicity was not part of his notability. Paul210 (talk) 18:32, 18 December 2009 (UTC)